For Those Who Claim The Koch Brothers Aren't Behind Wisconsin Efforts to Break Unions

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    Feb 22, 2011 4:34 AM GMT
    Just have a little lookey-loo here:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22koch.html?smid=tw-nytimes&seid=auto

    NY Times

    Billionaire Brothers’ Money Plays Role in Wisconsin Dispute
    By ERIC LIPTON

    WASHINGTON — Among the thousands of demonstrators who jammed the Wisconsin State Capitol grounds this weekend was a well-financed advocate from Washington who was there to voice praise for cutting state spending by slashing union benefits and bargaining rights.

    The visitor, Tim Phillips, the president of Americans for Prosperity, told a large group of counterprotesters who had gathered Saturday at one edge of what otherwise was a mostly union crowd that the cuts were not only necessary, but they also represented the start of a much-needed nationwide move to slash public-sector union benefits.

    “We are going to bring fiscal sanity back to this great nation,” he said.

    What Mr. Phillips did not mention was that his Virginia-based nonprofit group, whose budget surged to $40 million in 2010 from $7 million three years ago, was created and financed in part by the secretive billionaire brothers Charles G. and David H. Koch.

    Campaign finance records in Washington show that donations by Koch Industries and its employees climbed to a total of $2 million in the last election cycle, twice as much as a decade ago, with 92 percent of that money going to Republicans. Donations in state government races — like in Wisconsin — have also surged in recent years, records show.

    But the most aggressive expansion of the Koch brothers’ effort to influence public policy has come through the Americans for Prosperity, which runs both a charitable foundation and a grass-roots-activists group. Mr. Phillips serves as president of both branches, and David Koch is chairman of the Americans for Prosperity Foundation.
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    Feb 22, 2011 4:41 AM GMT
    When I checked earlier, I couldn't find the NY Times covering the fake doctors notes, which is definite news. Goes to show the Times is a second rate political rag. If they are not honest about omitting stories that don't fit their biased agenda, what should be believed about any story they do cover. BTW I don't care how much money comes from the Koch brothers. If they happen to be the right's version of George Soros, then fine.
  • creature

    Posts: 5197

    Feb 22, 2011 4:58 AM GMT
    socalfitness saidWhen I checked earlier, I couldn't find the NY Times covering the fake doctors notes, which is definite news. Goes to show the Times is a second rate political rag. If they are not honest about omitting stories that don't fit their biased agenda, what should be believed about any story they do cover. BTW I don't care how much money comes from the Koch brothers. If they happen to be the right's version of George Soros, then fine.


    In that respect, it should lead one to doubt any story that Fox News covers since they are not honest about omitting stories that do not fit their biased agenda.
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Feb 22, 2011 5:08 AM GMT
    creature said
    socalfitness saidWhen I checked earlier, I couldn't find the NY Times covering the fake doctors notes, which is definite news. Goes to show the Times is a second rate political rag. If they are not honest about omitting stories that don't fit their biased agenda, what should be believed about any story they do cover. BTW I don't care how much money comes from the Koch brothers. If they happen to be the right's version of George Soros, then fine.


    In that respect, it should lead one to doubt any story that Fox News covers since they are not honest about omitting stories that do not fit their biased agenda.



    According to you.

    People talk about the evil Koch brothers now.

    Ever notice about every month or so a new demon gets churned out of the liberal machine?

    Even if not one counter-protestor showed up the people of Wisconsin spoke. They threw out the democratic party after years of power.

    This is more about liberal power and less about the special interests they pretend to protect.

    Right now state law mandates EVERY public worker pays mandatory dues to a union in Wisconsin. Sounds democratic to me.

    Remember card check? that was a priority too. For some reason Unions want the names of everyone who votes to organize or not? I guess to send the people who dont vote for Unions flowers or something.


    Only the uninformed believe this garbage. Anyway the Wisconsin so called protesters are all White, and clearly racist public workers.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 22, 2011 5:09 AM GMT
    socalfitness saidWhen I checked earlier, I couldn't find the NY Times covering the fake doctors notes, which is definite news. Goes to show the Times is a second rate political rag. If they are not honest about omitting stories that don't fit their biased agenda, what should be believed about any story they do cover. BTW I don't care how much money comes from the Koch brothers. If they happen to be the right's version of George Soros, then fine.


    The NY Times is responsible for covering every right-wing conspiracy theory trotted out by Andrew Brietbart (who is also on the Koch brothers payroll). icon_rolleyes.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 22, 2011 5:14 AM GMT
    musclmed said
    creature said
    socalfitness saidWhen I checked earlier, I couldn't find the NY Times covering the fake doctors notes, which is definite news. Goes to show the Times is a second rate political rag. If they are not honest about omitting stories that don't fit their biased agenda, what should be believed about any story they do cover. BTW I don't care how much money comes from the Koch brothers. If they happen to be the right's version of George Soros, then fine.


    In that respect, it should lead one to doubt any story that Fox News covers since they are not honest about omitting stories that do not fit their biased agenda.



    According to you.

    People talk about the evil Koch brothers now.

    Ever notice about every month or so a new demon gets churned out of the liberal machine?

    Even if not one counter-protestor showed up the people of Wisconsin spoke. They threw out the democratic party after years of power.

    This is more about liberal power and less about the special interests they pretend to protect.

    Right now state law mandates EVERY public worker pays mandatory dues to a union in Wisconsin. Sounds democratic to me.

    Remember card check? that was a priority too. For some reason Unions want the names of everyone who votes to organize or not? I guess to send the people who dont vote for Unions flowers or something.


    Only the uninformed believe this garbage. Anyway the Wisconsin so called protesters are all White, and clearly racist public workers.


    People talk about the "evil Koch brothers" because they're funding this entire attack on public workers, who are disproportionately people of color. White people are still the majority in this country (and 90% in Wisconsin) so your claims of racism are both silly and without merit.

    And your silly claims that unions are antidemocratic belie both your seething right-wing anger and your ignorance of their role in the creation and maintenance of an American middle class.
  • creature

    Posts: 5197

    Feb 22, 2011 5:19 AM GMT
    musclmed said
    creature said
    socalfitness saidWhen I checked earlier, I couldn't find the NY Times covering the fake doctors notes, which is definite news. Goes to show the Times is a second rate political rag. If they are not honest about omitting stories that don't fit their biased agenda, what should be believed about any story they do cover. BTW I don't care how much money comes from the Koch brothers. If they happen to be the right's version of George Soros, then fine.


    In that respect, it should lead one to doubt any story that Fox News covers since they are not honest about omitting stories that do not fit their biased agenda.



    According to you.

    People talk about the evil Koch brothers now.

    Ever notice about every month or so a new demon gets churned out of the liberal machine?

    Even if not one counter-protestor showed up the people of Wisconsin spoke. They threw out the democratic party after years of power.

    This is more about liberal power and less about the special interests they pretend to protect.

    Right now state law mandates EVERY public worker pays mandatory dues to a union in Wisconsin. Sounds democratic to me.

    Remember card check? that was a priority too. For some reason Unions want the names of everyone who votes to organize or not? I guess to send the people who dont vote for Unions flowers or something.


    Only the uninformed believe this garbage. Anyway the Wisconsin so called protesters are all White, and clearly racist public workers.


    How you got "According to you.." as a result of what I posted, I'll never know.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 22, 2011 5:29 AM GMT
    "Right now state law mandates EVERY public worker pays mandatory dues to a union in Wisconsin. Sounds democratic to me."

    Right now just about every state demands every driver/owner of a vehicle not only have a license (how socialist) but INSURANCE (omg the communism of it all). Members in organizations and clubs all across your country are required to pay dues or they are no longer members, including your fitness clubs. Explain how this is different or less important.

    -Doug
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    Feb 22, 2011 5:36 AM GMT
    meninlove said "Right now state law mandates EVERY public worker pays mandatory dues to a union in Wisconsin. Sounds democratic to me."

    Yes it is Democratic, as in Democratic Party. The bill will stop the state from collecting. Each worker can pay directly to the union IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO? You see, that is even more democratic, eh?
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    Feb 22, 2011 5:41 AM GMT
    Really, so if you Socal, belonged to fitness club you think your fees should be voluntary even though you signed on that you'd pay?

    Do you think you should be able to voluntarily discontinue tax to the police or fire departments and you'll just put out that 'ol fire with your garden hose? Wack that 'ol intruder or shoot 'im ded?

    Do you think strata fees should be voluntary? You chose to live in that building just as you chose that union job with union benefits, union bargaining power by way of it being all for one and one for all, and representation if you need it at work.
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Feb 22, 2011 5:48 AM GMT
    meninlove said "Right now state law mandates EVERY public worker pays mandatory dues to a union in Wisconsin. Sounds democratic to me."

    Right now just about every state demands every driver/owner of a vehicle not only have a license (how socialist) but INSURANCE (omg the communism of it all). Members in organizations and clubs all across your country are required to pay dues or they are no longer members, including your fitness clubs. Explain how this is different or less important.

    -Doug


    Because you cannot be a Public employee without joining the union.

    Its automatic and required.

    If someone chose to be out of the union, they couldnt ... sound fair?

    Funny thing is, many support things without knowing a thing about the topic. You still for mandatory union membership?, card check?

    Forced union dues seem very democratic to me.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 22, 2011 5:53 AM GMT
    ...and again, you chose that job just like you chose to buy that condo with the strata fees.
    Both come with services.
    Gov'ts have large arrays of exempt jobs (meaning non-union) that anyone can apply for. The pay is far, far better and the perks huge.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 22, 2011 5:55 AM GMT
    meninlove saidReally, so if you Socal, belonged to fitness club you think your fees should be voluntary even though you signed on that you'd pay?

    Do you think you should be able to voluntarily discontinue tax to the police or fire departments and you'll just put out that 'ol fire with your garden hose? Wack that 'ol intruder or shoot 'im ded?

    Do you think strata fees should be voluntary? You chose to live in that building just as you chose that union job with union benefits, union bargaining power by way of it being all for one and one for all, and representation if you need it at work.

    I can't believe how irrelevant your points are. If I sign a contract with a fitness club, I am bound by the terms of the contract. Taxes paid to police and fire by a citizen are not the same as dues paid by a worker to a union? icon_rolleyes.gif
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Feb 22, 2011 5:59 AM GMT
    meninlove said ...and again, you chose that job just like you chose to buy that condo with the strata fees.
    Both come with services.
    Gov'ts have large arrays of exempt jobs (meaning non-union) that anyone can apply for. The pay is far, far better and the perks huge.



    Yep, just like there are certain neighborhoods some people shouldn't live in either , unless they go to church, or look or act a certain way.

    makes sense. Separate but equal ?

    Unions should have to play in the same arena of democracy. What about a competing union? how could it ever form?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 22, 2011 6:00 AM GMT
    lol, you so don't get it, so never mind.
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Feb 22, 2011 10:55 AM GMT
    musclmed said
    meninlove said "Right now state law mandates EVERY public worker pays mandatory dues to a union in Wisconsin. Sounds democratic to me."

    Right now just about every state demands every driver/owner of a vehicle not only have a license (how socialist) but INSURANCE (omg the communism of it all). Members in organizations and clubs all across your country are required to pay dues or they are no longer members, including your fitness clubs. Explain how this is different or less important.

    -Doug


    Because you cannot be a Public employee without joining the union.

    Its automatic and required.

    If someone chose to be out of the union, they couldnt ... sound fair?

    Funny thing is, many support things without knowing a thing about the topic. You still for mandatory union membership?, card check?

    Forced union dues seem very democratic to me.


    Earth to poster
    That's how unions work

    When you buy a Mutual fund
    can you pick one from column A and one from column B?
    No ... it's how it works and if you were able to do that
    the Mutual Fund as we know it would cease to exist
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 22, 2011 11:22 AM GMT
    musclmed said
    meninlove said ...and again, you chose that job just like you chose to buy that condo with the strata fees.
    Both come with services.
    Gov'ts have large arrays of exempt jobs (meaning non-union) that anyone can apply for. The pay is far, far better and the perks huge.



    Yep, just like there are certain neighborhoods some people shouldn't live in either , unless they go to church, or look or act a certain way.

    makes sense. Separate but equal ?

    Unions should have to play in the same arena of democracy. What about a competing union? how could it ever form?



    Ummm, competing unions have been successful in the past, just ask the members of Change To Win. icon_rolleyes.gif
  • sea_buddy

    Posts: 143

    Feb 22, 2011 11:44 AM GMT
    Uhhh.... Money=power. That's all there is to that. If the balance of power or money is threatened for the superior party, they will attempt to rectify it.
  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    Feb 22, 2011 12:16 PM GMT
    The Economic Policy Institute is a nonprofit Washington D.C. think tank created in 1986 to broaden the discussion about economic policy to include the interests of low- and middle-income workers.

    http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/webfeatures_efca_testimony_20070326/

    When one compares workers whose experience, education, region, industry, occupation and marital status are comparable, those covered by a union agreement enjoy:
    • 14.7% higher wages
    • 28.2% greater likelihood of having employer-provided health insurance
    • 53.9% greater likelihood of having pension coverage
    • 14.3% more paid time off


    Now watch some people's head explode....

    The deficit that Wisconsin faces is caused by the current economic downturn and the recent tax cut package. It has nothing to do with the compensation of the people that educate our children, keep the streets safe and clean, keep dangerous chemicals out of our water, and keep insurance companies from taking advantage of us. These public servants are already paid less than those in the private sector, and nationally, this gap has actually been increasing over the past few decades (Bender and Heywood). Instead of opportunistically using these hard times to target workers who—because of their public service—already take a substantial pay cut, Wisconsin politicians should focus on creating jobs and boosting the incomes of all workers.

    http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/entry/wisconsin_public_servants_already_face_a_compensation_penalty/

    head-explode.bmp
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Feb 22, 2011 12:20 PM GMT

    Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 22, 2011 12:20 PM GMT
    socalfitness said
    meninlove said "Right now state law mandates EVERY public worker pays mandatory dues to a union in Wisconsin. Sounds democratic to me."

    Yes it is Democratic, as in Democratic Party. The bill will stop the state from collecting. Each worker can pay directly to the union IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO? You see, that is even more democratic, eh?


    The Union chose collective bargaining...

    You see, that is even more democratic




  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    Feb 22, 2011 12:29 PM GMT
    GQjock said

    Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy



    man-crying.jpg


    "But what about the fake doctor slips? Where is the justice?"
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    Feb 22, 2011 1:16 PM GMT
    meninlove said lol, you so don't get it, so never mind.

    My point is not if a worker pays dues to a union he freely joins, but his being compelled to join. Either way, the union can collect dues from their own members. The state doesn't need to do it.
  • grnranger99

    Posts: 225

    Feb 22, 2011 2:02 PM GMT
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  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 22, 2011 2:25 PM GMT
    socalfitness said
    meninlove said lol, you so don't get it, so never mind.

    My point is not if a worker pays dues to a union he freely joins, but his being compelled to join. Either way, the union can collect dues from their own members. The state doesn't need to do it.



    That quote was not directed at you, socal. icon_wink.gif

    If you look back, you'd see that at one time, the state agreed to collect the union dues for the unions in question. If they don't want to do it anymore, then that's something to put on the table during the next contract negotiations. They also deduct for health insurance, which is also an outside entity.