Lets dissect the republican party...

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    Mar 03, 2011 7:19 AM GMT
    Fascism (pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a radical, authoritarian nationalist political ideology. Fascists seek to organize a nation according to corporatist perspectives, values, and systems, including the political system and the economy. Sound like republican talking points? YUP! Fascism was originally founded by Italian national syndicalists in World War I who combined extreme right-wing political views along with collectivism. Scholars generally consider fascism to be on the far right. Confusion over whether fascism is of the left or right is due to the inability to fit the economic policies into a clear-cut category, because while fascism is considered on the right politically, fascist economic controls were left-wing, though ended up benefiting social groups considered to be supportive of right-wing parties.

    Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong. They claim that culture is created by the collective national society and its state, that cultural ideas are what give individuals identity, Sound remotely familiar? and thus they reject individualism. Viewing the nation as an integrated collective community, they see pluralism as a dysfunctional aspect of society, and justify a totalitarian state as a means to represent the nation in its entirety. Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state. Hence my post about deadly republicanism, Fascist governments forbid and suppress opposition to the fascist state and the fascist movement. Sound like some repub governors in the news lately?
    Idolization and exaltation of violence, war, and militarism are central components of fascism, which fascists see as providing positive transformation in society, in providing spiritual renovation, education, instilling of a will to dominate in people's character, and creating national comradeship through the military service. LMAO.. I could go on and on over this gem! Fascists view violence and war as actions that create national regeneration, spirit and vitality.

    Fascism rejects the concepts of egalitarianism, materialism, and rationalism in favour of action, discipline, hierarchy, spirit, and will. Fascists oppose liberalism Hello southbeach/musclemed et al! (as a bourgeois movement) and Marxism (as a proletarian movement) for being exclusive economic class-based movements. Fascists present their ideology as that of an economically trans-class movement that promotes ending economic class conflict to secure national solidarity. They believe that economic classes are not capable of properly governing a nation, and that a merit-based elite of experienced military persons must rule through regimenting a nation's forces of production and securing the nation's independence. Fascism perceives conservatism as partly valuable for its support of order in society but disagrees with its typical opposition to change and modernization. Hello tea party! Fascism presents itself as a solution to the perceived benefits and disadvantages of conservatism by advocating state-controlled modernization that promotes orderly change while resisting the dangers to order in society of pluralism and independent initiative.

    Fascists tend to support a "third position" in economic policy, which they believe superior to both the rampant individualism of laissez-faire capitalism and the severe control of state socialism. Italian Fascism and most other fascist movements promote a corporatist economy whereby, in theory, representatives of capital and labour interest groups work together within sectoral corporations to create both harmonious labour relations and maximization of production that would serve the national interest. However, other fascist movements and ideologies, such as Nazism, did not use this form of economy. Hmmm maybe the repubs are the reincarnation of the nazi party.. are we going to repeat history?

    Oh the smackdowns are a comin for our esteemed RJ repubs trying to splane away this! The amount of proof is overwhelming!
    (The above information is taken verbatim from Wikipedia) It isn't 'my' explanation..
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    Mar 03, 2011 3:54 PM GMT
    Do you really want to have this discussion on an intellectual basis? Or, are you simply using the usual progressive/liberal sleight of hand tactic of labeling everything you don't like as fascist?

    Maybe you should understand that while you think you and Wikipedia know exactly what fascism is, most scholars aren't really able to define exactly what Fascism is. To their credit and in their honesty, the scholarly community has yet to figure out what exactly fascism is. What really distinguishes scholarly works on fascism is that nearly all such works begin with such an acknowledgement, as Roger Griffin wrote in his introduction to "The Nature of Fascism", 'Such is the welter of divergent opinion surrounding the term that it is de rigueur to open contributions to the debate on fascism with some such observation." So far the best definition for it seems to come from George Orwell: "The word Fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies "something not desirable.' " What ever that may be in the mind of those people who often level charges of Fascism against those with whom they disagree. The more likely a person is To use the word fascist in everyday language and to use it to silence those with whom he disagrees, the less likely he is to understand what fascism is and it's history.

    Maybe you should actually put some effort into it and study Fascism and Nazism and their intimate ties with the American Progressive movement and prominent progressives, before most Americans were sickened by the holocaust. Maybe you should actually understand the history of Fascism and the love affair the progressive movement has had with it in the words of those prominent progressives. Let me recommend a few good places for you to start.

    The Nature of Fascism Roger Griffin

    What Fascism Is Not: Thoughts on the Deflation of a concept American Historical Review 84, #2

    Politics and the English Language George Orwell 1946 reprinted 2002

    Mussolini and Fascism: The view from America John Patrick Diggins

    Calamity Almost Beyond Comprehension: Nazi Anti Semitism and the Holocaust in the thought of W. E. B. DuBois Harold David Brackman

    Three New Deals: Reflections on Roosevelt's America, Mussolini's Italy and Hitlers Germany, 1933-1939 Wolfgang Schivelbusch

    The Age of Reform Richard Hofstadter

    The Nazi War on Cancer Robert N. Proctor

    Liberal Fascism H. G. Wells Journal of Contemporary History 35, #4

    That you don't understand the history of fascism and progressivism is evident in your suggestion that it is a right wing ideology, when in fact it is the younger ugly sibling of the American Progressive Movement and, in fact was embraced by that movement as the embodiment of what they strove for after progressivism was discredited after the over reaching of the Wilson administration and his "religious progressives and wartime socialism". Today's liberalism is the revamped face of the Progressive Movement, and progressivism was a sister movement to fascism. Do some home work and then come back and discuss the facts, reality and history of fascism and progressivism. Otherwise this is just another attempt at the old left wing/ progressive/liberal sleight of hand of masking progressive support for fascism and populist disgust for progressivisms embracing of fascism, nazism and Communism by transferring their own ugly history onto conservatives.

  • rnch

    Posts: 11524

    Mar 03, 2011 3:57 PM GMT
    TM, you have nailed the GOP/facist party to the wall!!

    icon_idea.gif
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    Mar 03, 2011 4:00 PM GMT

    Republican 2012 Presidential Game Plan.

    Cut jobs spending and jobs in 2011...

    Then blame the jobs loses on Obama.

    Pretty Much Sums It Up.!
  • rnch

    Posts: 11524

    Mar 03, 2011 4:03 PM GMT
    shybuffguy.....

    MORE is not necessarily BETTER.

    this thread is not a 3 page required high school essay.

    worship this word: brevity.






    P.S. suggest that you switch to de-caf.
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    Mar 03, 2011 4:45 PM GMT
    shybuffguy -

    I think your time and effort is totally wasted with these guys. If they assume a movement that advocates less government is equal to fascism, then you're dealing with some very misguided folks. From experience, we know recommending something as radical as books to them is like hitting your head against a wall. They would rather copy something and add comments not backed up with any sort of intellectual rigor. The request for brevity is an admission that they are not capable of going beyond the headlines and live in the world of slogans and soundbites.
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    Mar 04, 2011 3:03 PM GMT
    You want brevity?

    Here it is:

    Facism ⊇ Totalitarian Statism.


    Longer version:

    Common elements include hypernationalism, suppression of dissenters, and deep influence if not outright control of industry by the government.

    Typically a Facist government exalts a particular leader or leaders in a state cult of personality.

    It is anti-American and anti-Liberty.

    Facism is neither left or right, but generally an odd blend of the worst of both (corporate socialism or "social the losses, privatize the gains")

    America in 2011 ≠ Facist

    We are a federal representative republic (on paper - the US Constitution) and in current practice, a corporatist plutocracy by virtue of our current representation.

    On our present course, we may well become a kleptocracy in the vein of many sub-Saharan African nations in the next generation or two.
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    Mar 05, 2011 11:02 AM GMT
    TheAmericanPeople said
    alphatrigger saidYou want brevity?

    Here it is:

    Facism ⊇ Totalitarian Statism.

    I'll play.

    Legislating what women can do with their own bodies = Totalitarian Statism.

    Fun, isn't it?



    There probably needs to be some sort of balance with the rights of the unborn vs. the rights of the woman bearing the unborn child.

    Where that is defined seems to be most challenging.
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    Mar 05, 2011 7:26 PM GMT
    alphatrigger said
    TheAmericanPeople said
    alphatrigger saidYou want brevity?

    Here it is:

    Facism ⊇ Totalitarian Statism.

    I'll play.

    Legislating what women can do with their own bodies = Totalitarian Statism.

    Fun, isn't it?



    There probably needs to be some sort of balance with the rights of the unborn vs. the rights of the woman bearing the unborn child.

    Where that is defined seems to be most challenging.


    That's not in his cognitive capacity to evaluate though. You're dealing with primitive minds who are unable to think outside of their neatly lady-gaga defined thoughts about how the world works.
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    Mar 05, 2011 7:29 PM GMT
    Tropicalmark,

    If you think fascism has anything to do with conservatism or libertarianism then you've probably lost your marbles years ago.
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    Mar 05, 2011 7:48 PM GMT
    I think as contemptible, intellectually bankrupt, and misguided as Republican policy is, it is not fascist. It's dangerous to misuse the word fascism, because it helps to create mythology that diminishes the significance of it's effect---we see attempts to manipulate the history of fascism from everywhere these days [see shybuffguys truly dreadful ahistorical post above]. Use it carefully.
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    Mar 05, 2011 9:13 PM GMT
    socalfitness saidshybuffguy -

    I think your time and effort is totally wasted with these guys. If they assume a movement that advocates less government is equal to fascism, then you're dealing with some very misguided folks. From experience, we know recommending something as radical as books to them is like hitting your head against a wall. They would rather copy something and add comments not backed up with any sort of intellectual rigor. The request for brevity is an admission that they are not capable of going beyond the headlines and live in the world of slogans and soundbites.


    His effort is mostly wasted because he's completely and stunningly wrong. Progressivism led to fascism? What was he home-schooled? icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Mar 05, 2011 11:22 PM GMT
    Christian73 said
    socalfitness saidshybuffguy -

    I think your time and effort is totally wasted with these guys. If they assume a movement that advocates less government is equal to fascism, then you're dealing with some very misguided folks. From experience, we know recommending something as radical as books to them is like hitting your head against a wall. They would rather copy something and add comments not backed up with any sort of intellectual rigor. The request for brevity is an admission that they are not capable of going beyond the headlines and live in the world of slogans and soundbites.


    His effort is mostly wasted because he's completely and stunningly wrong. Progressivism led to fascism? What was he home-schooled? icon_rolleyes.gif


    You're massively understating his wrongness. It's like Flat Earth, Thalidomide, Slavery and Asbestos wrong all rolled into one.
  • rnch

    Posts: 11524

    Mar 05, 2011 11:25 PM GMT
    [quote][cite]Christian73 said...What was he home-schooled? icon_rolleyes.gif[/quote]


    more than likely self-schooled.

    icon_lol.gif
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    Mar 05, 2011 11:41 PM GMT
    TigerTim said
    Christian73 said
    socalfitness saidshybuffguy -

    I think your time and effort is totally wasted with these guys. If they assume a movement that advocates less government is equal to fascism, then you're dealing with some very misguided folks. From experience, we know recommending something as radical as books to them is like hitting your head against a wall. They would rather copy something and add comments not backed up with any sort of intellectual rigor. The request for brevity is an admission that they are not capable of going beyond the headlines and live in the world of slogans and soundbites.


    His effort is mostly wasted because he's completely and stunningly wrong. Progressivism led to fascism? What was he home-schooled? icon_rolleyes.gif


    You're massively understating his wrongness. It's like Flat Earth, Thalidomide, Slavery and Asbestos wrong all rolled into one.


    icon_lol.gif
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3279

    Mar 06, 2011 2:38 AM GMT
    TigerTim said
    Christian73 said
    socalfitness saidshybuffguy -



    You're massively understating his wrongness. It's like Flat Earth, Thalidomide, Slavery and Asbestos wrong all rolled into one.


    fyi Thalidomide is actually a great drug , unfortunate for its severe birth defects, but actually has revolutionized the treatment of multiple myeloma..

    as for the O.P.... I read the manifesto.

    I am not sure why someone would confuse libertarian beliefs with fascism. I have just come to learn that government is not the answer to everything in life. Life is not "bad" because there is not enough funding or we dont tax enough.

    Simple as that.

    TropicalMark, there are many liberal ideals I believe with. I just despise its organization and the company it keeps. ( Noam Chomsky for example)

    The GOP are not a organization of saints, and I would be happy to see alot of them go with there Democratic friends.


    In my opinion progressive ideals are declining. And you would have us believe because of this its because of Fascism and repression? Republicans are the incarnation of the Nazi's?


    If I had my druthers, I wouldn't want any organization of our country by any values. Everyone has there own values, and as long as you do not infringe upon others leave people to do what they want.

    Thats fascism?

    Not wanting to pay a 9.75% sales tax fascism? when the staid aid cards get used in casinos? fascism?


    please........
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 06, 2011 2:57 AM GMT
    "Lets dissect the republican party..."

    Can't we just bury it ... alive! ... ;)
  • creature

    Posts: 5197

    Mar 06, 2011 4:01 AM GMT
    musclmed said
    TigerTim said
    Christian73 said
    socalfitness saidshybuffguy -



    You're massively understating his wrongness. It's like Flat Earth, Thalidomide, Slavery and Asbestos wrong all rolled into one.


    fyi Thalidomide is actually a great drug , unfortunate for its severe birth defects, but actually has revolutionized the treatment of multiple myeloma..

    as for the O.P.... I read the manifesto.

    I am not sure why someone would confuse libertarian beliefs with fascism. I have just come to learn that government is not the answer to everything in life. Life is not "bad" because there is not enough funding or we dont tax enough.

    Simple as that.

    TropicalMark, there are many liberal ideals I believe with. I just despise its organization and the company it keeps. ( Noam Chomsky for example)

    The GOP are not a organization of saints, and I would be happy to see alot of them go with there Democratic friends.


    In my opinion progressive ideals are declining. And you would have us believe because of this its because of Fascism and repression? Republicans are the incarnation of the Nazi's?


    If I had my druthers, I wouldn't want any organization of our country by any values. Everyone has there own values, and as long as you do not infringe upon others leave people to do what they want.

    Thats fascism?

    Not wanting to pay a 9.75% sales tax fascism? when the staid aid cards get used in casinos? fascism?


    please........


    Funny you say that, even though you criticize calls for more and stricter regulations on industries that infringe on the health of citizens.
  • TrentGrad

    Posts: 1541

    Mar 06, 2011 4:03 AM GMT
    mocktwinkie saidTropicalmark,

    If you think fascism has anything to do with conservatism or libertarianism then you've probably lost your marbles years ago.


    Well as usual mock, you're half right: fascism and libertarianism have little to do with one another.

    However fascist ideals have and often do overlap with conservative ideals, especially as those ideals relate to national pride! And of course the branch of international relations theory most espoused by conservatives, neo-conservativism, has historical connections with fascist, totalitarian despots!

    To downplay the connect denotes intellectual dishonesty...not to mention is incredibly hypocritical given how quickly the political right in the USA has harped on Obama's alleged socialist leanings!
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    Mar 06, 2011 5:00 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    TheAmericanPeople said
    alphatrigger saidYou want brevity?

    Here it is:

    Facism ⊇ Totalitarian Statism.

    I'll play.

    Legislating what women can do with their own bodies = Totalitarian Statism.

    Fun, isn't it?



    Yeah, a woman's right to choose what she does with her body.

    Just like the right to choose whether or not to have health insurance.... oh wait, the Democrats are trying to take that right away from us with Obamacare.

    Yes, you're right, this is fun! icon_wink.gif


    Not comparable. At all.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 06, 2011 5:01 AM GMT
    musclmed said
    TigerTim said
    Christian73 said
    socalfitness saidshybuffguy -



    You're massively understating his wrongness. It's like Flat Earth, Thalidomide, Slavery and Asbestos wrong all rolled into one.


    fyi Thalidomide is actually a great drug , unfortunate for its severe birth defects, but actually has revolutionized the treatment of multiple myeloma..

    as for the O.P.... I read the manifesto.

    I am not sure why someone would confuse libertarian beliefs with fascism. I have just come to learn that government is not the answer to everything in life. Life is not "bad" because there is not enough funding or we dont tax enough.

    Simple as that.

    TropicalMark, there are many liberal ideals I believe with. I just despise its organization and the company it keeps. ( Noam Chomsky for example)

    The GOP are not a organization of saints, and I would be happy to see alot of them go with there Democratic friends.


    In my opinion progressive ideals are declining. And you would have us believe because of this its because of Fascism and repression? Republicans are the incarnation of the Nazi's?


    If I had my druthers, I wouldn't want any organization of our country by any values. Everyone has there own values, and as long as you do not infringe upon others leave people to do what they want.

    Thats fascism?

    Not wanting to pay a 9.75% sales tax fascism? when the staid aid cards get used in casinos? fascism?


    please........


    Just when we think shybuffguy has made the most idiot post of the thread, you come along and on-up him. Bravo.
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    Mar 06, 2011 5:39 AM GMT
    Just an observation, and an obvious one at that. None of the critiques of shybuffguy's and I think also musclemed, but haven't look as closely, had any substance at all. None. These are sample cop outs over the months when a long, detailed post has been made with references:

    1) There's so much wrong, I can even begin.

    2) Stunningly wrong.

    3) As wrong as the flat earth.

    4) Wrong through and through. Completely wrong and devoid of logic.

    If a post is so bad but you don't want to take the time to painstakingly show it to be, why not take, say, two main points and disprove or discredit them. Comes across much more credible than blanket statements that say nothing.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 06, 2011 6:10 AM GMT
    socalfitness saidJust an observation, and an obvious one at that. None of the critiques of shybuffguy's and I think also musclemed, but haven't look as closely, had any substance at all. None. These are sample cop outs over the months when a long, detailed post has been made with references:

    1) There's so much wrong, I can even begin.

    2) Stunningly wrong.

    3) As wrong as the flat earth.

    4) Wrong through and through. Completely wrong and devoid of logic.

    If a post is so bad but you don't want to take the time to painstakingly show it to be, why not take, say, two main points and disprove or discredit them. Comes across much more credible than blanket statements that say nothing.


    It's difficult to argue a point that is completely devoid of logic. Frankly, I often can ascertain what musclemed is trying to say. It's like Sarah Palin word salad.

    Where shybuffguy is concerned, he often either misunderstands or misrepresents basic concepts and historical facts. Then he copies and pastes a bunch of dreck from Cato or the Heritage Society.

    Now, you and I can disagree about the exact causes of the fall of the Soviet Union, but we cannot do that if you believe it happened in the 1970s. And you and I can agree or disagree about the causes of Nazism, but if you (and I mean the royal "you") do not know or won't admit that the Nazis infiltrated the socialist party and killed the socialists, then what's the point in trying to debate? Some of the arguments here are just posited on either complete ignorance or purposeful obfuscation.
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3279

    Mar 06, 2011 6:25 AM GMT
    The only reason why I mention Noam Chomsky is that he has been suggesting this for years. Anything not as liberal as his ideas are "Nazi" propaganda machines.

    Its a tired argument.


    Its also very tiring to see RJ'sers who call anyone a "idiot" they don't agree with.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Mar 06, 2011 6:45 AM GMT
    musclmed saidThe only reason why I mention Noam Chomsky is that he has been suggesting this for years. Anything not as liberal as his ideas are "Nazi" propaganda machines.

    Its a tired argument.


    Its also very tiring to see RJ'sers who call anyone a "idiot" they don't agree with.


    You apparently do not understand Chomsky because that's not his thesis at all. And don't blame the messenger.