Does God Exist?

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    Apr 09, 2011 4:47 PM GMT
    Further to the former thread about religion and science, I got to a point of pondering this question.... because someone on that other thread made me see god in a completely different perspective than I had before

    This has been my development on the issue:

    As a child: "god exists because my family says he does"

    As a teenager: "god from the bible cannot exist, because the bible has to be wrong, there is too much disagreement with science, but there may be something else out there"

    As a young adult: "scientifically speaking, everything functions like one universe anyway, the universe is all one, so god does not exist"

    Then: "Something must be beyond the universe, so god exists perhaps"

    Now I am seeing it from this perspective: if god is the creator of the universe, that means he is uncreated, therefore does not exist.... the creation of the universe goes back in time all the way to infinity... infinity also does not exist, so god cannot exist... it would be a contradiction in itself to assert that the existence (of the universe and everything in it) has a beginning and a "creator", the creator created existence itself, but the creator can also be existing... not logical... THEREFORE, god is not real by definition.. to claim it does is ludicrous...

    Then came another perspective from an RJ thread:

    god is undefineable because everyone (religion) has a different definition and/or description of it.. the only thing that can define god is god itself, nobody else can see, smell, hear, taste, or meet him/her/it

    I found this to be an extremely beautiful and elegant opinion and description of god, which I had never pondered before... but now this begs the question: if god is undefineable and undescribeable except by god alone, does that mean that god CAN exist????

    Thoughts?

    PS: Disclaimer... this is not a scientific enquiry, its a purely conceptual one, based on the sole use of reason and logic with concepts in the spirit of Plato, and no observational facts in the spirit of Aristoteles , please do not try to use scientific observations or speculations to argue an answer here, stick to conceptual reasoning

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    Apr 09, 2011 9:27 PM GMT
    God exists because (as, maybe?) we exist. As we are all made of stars, we all have god within us. We are godhead.

    I'll define what I mean by god before anyone tries seeing how what I said applies to his religion and feels to negate what I say or justify what based on his religion's perspective. God is not a man sitting on a cloud telling you what not to do. God is a force that runs through and connects all life.

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    Apr 10, 2011 1:38 AM GMT
    For Pato:

    For trees, Men are undefineable and undescribable. They haven't the means (cognitive brains and senses) to do it. Rest assuredly, Men exist. icon_wink.gif

    Ermine! I once wrote what you describe! "God is a force that runs through and connects all life."


    from A Ribbon Of Beauty

    "Janice felt her whole self give a great throb of terror and then, amazingly, a nostalgic sense of recognition, then a strange happiness that was plainly senseless. A sensation of recognition bloomed into realization as she knew, without doubt, that God existed, and more, was in her and around her, like the atoms she was made of but even finer than that.

    Invisible, gossamer, yet as easy to see as her own hand, the Maker was present. Frank shone with it. He had been in a blank rationalization of the way things were in the world when he started truly listening to the words of his thoughts and felt dismay. Frank, who had truly come so far away from his old self. Hermet-ish and habitual, he had gone on a date and his life had changed. It was trite and pedestrian, but also a brilliant colour that her mind’s Eyes picked up immediately. She could taste this colour too, and did, relishing the tones of herself in it. How would she, could she ever explain this?
    The Maker was huge in her. Kindness, warmness, elation, all warred in her for dominance. At the same time, they dovetailed each other in what she perceived as a sentence. "

    -Doug
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    Apr 10, 2011 1:40 AM GMT
    He does, but only in my bedroom.








    Oh I beat ya'll to it.
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    Apr 10, 2011 2:03 AM GMT
    God is the Alpha & Omega, the Beginning & Last. Here's a question that might give u alot of thinking. Where You There??. God exists because of his unfalsifiable Word: The Holy Bible. some might think its a "fairytale book" but its not... lol. YES HE EXISTS! icon_biggrin.gif
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    Apr 10, 2011 2:15 AM GMT
    Of course he does; I know because I'm his second favorite son.
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    Apr 10, 2011 2:26 AM GMT
    meninlove said For Pato:
    Invisible, gossamer, yet as easy to see as her own hand, the Maker was present. Frank shone with it. He had been in a blank rationalization of the way things were in the world when he started truly listening to the words of his thoughts and felt dismay. Frank, who had truly come so far away from his old self. Hermet-ish and habitual, he had gone on a date and his life had changed. It was trite and pedestrian, but also a brilliant colour that her mind’s Eyes picked up immediately. She could taste this colour too, and did, relishing the tones of herself in it. How would she, could she ever explain this?
    The Maker was huge in her. Kindness, warmness, elation, all warred in her for dominance. At the same time, they dovetailed each other in what she perceived as a sentence. "

    -Doug

    I like the way these words taste. Doug, have you ever read Middlesex, this reminds me of that.

    I went to a religious university when I was having doubts about God's existence. While my spiritual beliefs became stronger, it wasn't my religion classes that helped me to see God's existence, but medical school. It was mind-blowing, the intricacies. I saw God in my cadaver's body. And I see God in my children. And I have known God in so many people. It becomes difficult to not know Him.

    Perhaps the only argument that I can not believe is the moral argument for God's existence and Augustine's need for evil for God to exist. Otherwise, there is first-cause, design argument that assumes a God that has a strong affinity for humanity, and of course Anselm's ontological argument- this is the strongest argument for me.

    Patrick, have you ever read Thomas Aquinas' Five Ways? I think you are looking for that.
    [url]http://www.mnstate.edu/gracyk/courses/web%20publishing/aquinasFiveWays_ArgumentAnalysis.htm[/url]
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    Apr 10, 2011 2:33 AM GMT
    God exists point black. I was premature at 1lb 70z. I should've been dead or a least have some birth defects but I'm perfectly fine and functioning well in society. So the question if God exists is to question why you exist. I disregard the theory that we come to from a primordial soup, and that all life comes from algae in the sea. So in my opinion God exists and to question his existence is Blasphemy.
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    Apr 10, 2011 2:33 AM GMT
    I've said it before and I'll say it again: God exists for those that want Him to exist and He doesn't for those that don't want Him to.
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    Apr 10, 2011 2:34 AM GMT
    I believe that God does exist. I think Ermine said it in a good way:

    Ermine saidGod is not a man sitting on a cloud telling you what not to do. God is a force that runs through and connects all life.


    And I agree with Carmine in that I see God in different things all the time. Call me crazy but when I go out for a drive or am out shooting pictures and look at all the cool stuff in nature, it makes me think of God.
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    Apr 10, 2011 2:48 AM GMT
    If he does he's not telling me.
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    Apr 10, 2011 3:00 AM GMT
    Idk how can someone possibly think that a giant man is out there somewhere. Or if god created the universe were was god at when r made it like physially he was...where? Something had to exist before him beacuse he could not have been created out of nothing. Also evry time man cannot explain something they say it's gods. Than centuries later we become for advance and realize our foolishness. i.e. Zues or any of the Greek gods at one time they were truly believed in to explain things such as weather or the sun and moon but now we know better than that. So in years to come are they going to look back at our ignorance of what is bigger than our conpacity of knowledge and acceptability. Well if u can answer them questions I NEED you to inform me but untill ten think about it.

    Btw I have church tomorrow morning lmfao
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    Apr 10, 2011 3:00 AM GMT
    _KiwiM0nst3r_ saidGod is the Alpha & Omega, the Beginning & Last. Here's a question that might give u alot of thinking. Where You There??. God exists because of his unfalsifiable Word: The Holy Bible. some might think its a "fairytale book" but its not... lol. YES HE EXISTS! icon_biggrin.gif


    "were you there??"

    god exists because the bible says so? icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Apr 10, 2011 3:05 AM GMT
    Corvin saidGod exists point black.


    blank?

    Corvin said
    I was premature at 1lb 70z. I should've been dead or a least have some birth defects but I'm perfectly fine and functioning well in society.So the question if God exists is to question why you exist.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur
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    Apr 10, 2011 3:16 AM GMT
    Um- yeah...... I think I just discovered my first "non-negotiable-"

    Must NOT be religious- except for Jews- they're are okay
  • Twenty_Someth...

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    Apr 10, 2011 3:19 AM GMT
    Imagine having to tell a 2 dimensional cartoon to imagine the 3 dimensional world... it would be difficult to explain. All the cartoon knows are directions in the x and y. His world is flat. How would you explain our world, which also exists in the z?

    Maybe our inability to know and understand god is based on a similar problem. We are 3 dimensional creatures, unable to understand and see the granduer that lies beyond our own dimensional boundaries.

    People always try to quantify the unknowabe, but in the case of God, and the elegance of the universe, maybe it is best leave our methods of reasoning out of it. You don't have to understand the mechanism of God to appreciate it's beauty. Just be thankful that you are here, that you are alive, and that you are aware that there is a greatness in this universe beyond our understanding.
  • eddieross69

    Posts: 841

    Apr 10, 2011 3:31 AM GMT
    I still adhere to the saying:

    God is a DJ
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    Apr 10, 2011 3:37 AM GMT
    God is coming, and she is pissed!
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    Apr 10, 2011 3:41 AM GMT
    interesting responses... mostly based on the idea that there is something beyond our understanding... I can accept that can definitely exist.. cant reason taht out otherwise icon_smile.gif
  • Goofeyman

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    Apr 10, 2011 3:43 AM GMT
    Does God exist?

    Yes. The bible is the inspired and infallible word of God.

    I know that buy studying, analyzing, and experiencing God in my life even when I had other plans.

    Lastly, practaclly every religious and secular writing verifies this. I mean through His son, Jesus, the risen messiah (extremely well documented again in both religious and secular settings

    Thanks
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    Apr 10, 2011 3:43 AM GMT
    carminea said it wasn't my religion classes that helped me to see God's existence, but medical school. It was mind-blowing, the intricacies. I saw God in my cadaver's body.


    I hear that.. it was completely stupefyingly impossibly beautiful
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    Apr 10, 2011 3:44 AM GMT
    What I dont understand here though is... why do so many people base their belief in god on a little book? the world itself is infinitely more inspiring if you look at it plainly
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    Apr 10, 2011 3:46 AM GMT
    carminea said
    meninlove said For Pato:
    Invisible, gossamer, yet as easy to see as her own hand, the Maker was present. Frank shone with it. He had been in a blank rationalization of the way things were in the world when he started truly listening to the words of his thoughts and felt dismay. Frank, who had truly come so far away from his old self. Hermet-ish and habitual, he had gone on a date and his life had changed. It was trite and pedestrian, but also a brilliant colour that her mind’s Eyes picked up immediately. She could taste this colour too, and did, relishing the tones of herself in it. How would she, could she ever explain this?
    The Maker was huge in her. Kindness, warmness, elation, all warred in her for dominance. At the same time, they dovetailed each other in what she perceived as a sentence. "

    -Doug

    I like the way these words taste. Doug, have you ever read Middlesex, this reminds me of that.

    I went to a religious university when I was having doubts about God's existence. While my spiritual beliefs became stronger, it wasn't my religion classes that helped me to see God's existence, but medical school. It was mind-blowing, the intricacies. I saw God in my cadaver's body. And I see God in my children. And I have known God in so many people. It becomes difficult to not know Him.

    Perhaps the only argument that I can not believe is the moral argument for God's existence and Augustine's need for evil for God to exist. Otherwise, there is first-cause, design argument that assumes a God that has a strong affinity for humanity, and of course Anselm's ontological argument- this is the strongest argument for me.

    Patrick, have you ever read Thomas Aquinas' Five Ways? I think you are looking for that.
    [url]http://www.mnstate.edu/gracyk/courses/web%20publishing/aquinasFiveWays_ArgumentAnalysis.htm[/url]


    This is what my dad used to tell me. At the beginning of his medical career he was amaze how he could see the beauty of God in his patients.
    Whenever he was in the morgue studying a patient ... or upstairs helping in the ER .... or participating in a surgery with my uncle.

    I do believe God exist. And my belief goes beyond what I've been told in Catholicism.

    An entity that is way beyond my level of understanding. That goes beyond my comprehension of how life and death dance with each other. Goes beyond my comprehension of the creation of everything that I can see, feel, smell, perceive. Yea, i believe in God icon_wink.gif
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    Apr 10, 2011 3:47 AM GMT
    If god is undefineable that doesnt prove its existence it just means that something we believe in cant be defined and just like God many other things we WANT to believe in cannot be defined and that doesnt give them god like properties hence an undefineable being doesnt prove the existance of a God.
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    Apr 10, 2011 3:48 AM GMT
    Pato_Rico said

    Now I am seeing it from this perspective: if god is the creator of the universe, that means he is uncreated, therefore does not exist.... the creation of the universe goes back in time all the way to infinity...


    it does not.

    Pato_Rico said
    god is undefineable because everyone (religion) has a different definition and/or description of it.. the only thing that can define god is god itself, nobody else can see, smell, hear, taste, or meet him/her/it

    I found this to be an extremely beautiful and elegant opinion and description of god, which I had never pondered before... but now this begs the question: if god is undefineable and undescribeable except by god alone, does that mean that god CAN exist????


    seems like this "god" doesn't affect the universe at all and nobody would be able to measure anything of it so it has no impact on anything at all.