Cuban communists headed for oblivion

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 18, 2011 2:32 PM GMT
    http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/04/17/2169612/cuban-communists-headed-for-oblivion.html

    Although Cubans continue to repeat slogans, almost no one believes in Marxism-Leninism, while the government tries to escape from the system’s chronic failures by creating a few spaces that might allow private initiative to alleviate the disaster of collectivism. While they applaud revolutionary mottos, young people call Marx “the little old man who invented hunger.”

    The adults, in confidence, acknowledge this outlook. After 52 years of dictatorship, without a hostile parliament or an opposition that could hinder the government’s work, the six basic elements that determine the quality of life of any modern society have decayed into nightmares: food, potable water, housing, electricity, communications and transport.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 19, 2011 11:21 AM GMT
    riddler78 saidhttp://www.miamiherald.com/2011/04/17/2169612/cuban-communists-headed-for-oblivion.html

    Although Cubans continue to repeat slogans, almost no one believes in Marxism-Leninism, while the government tries to escape from the system’s chronic failures by creating a few spaces that might allow private initiative to alleviate the disaster of collectivism. While they applaud revolutionary mottos, young people call Marx “the little old man who invented hunger.”

    The adults, in confidence, acknowledge this outlook. After 52 years of dictatorship, without a hostile parliament or an opposition that could hinder the government’s work, the six basic elements that determine the quality of life of any modern society have decayed into nightmares: food, potable water, housing, electricity, communications and transport.


    "the little old man who invented hunger." icon_lol.gif

    I suppose it will be an interesting next few years in Cuba with the elder Castro no longer in power. Does this mean, in the near future, that US citizens will be free to visit Cuba without restrictions? I certainly hope so!
  • stee99

    Posts: 317

    Apr 19, 2011 11:29 AM GMT
    yeah those commies would be way better off carrying $14 trillion dollars in national debt... icon_wink.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 19, 2011 12:09 PM GMT
    The amazing thing is the many RJ guys, seriously misguided and worse, who want this model of an economy in the US. Truly amazing.
  • offshore

    Posts: 1294

    Apr 19, 2011 12:25 PM GMT
    socalfitness saidThe amazing thing is the many RJ guys, seriously misguided and worse, who want this model of an economy in the US. Truly amazing.


    I see you guys are doing fantastic these days.

    Unchecked growth of capitalism is just as dangerous.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 19, 2011 12:54 PM GMT
    socalfitness saidThe amazing thing is the many RJ guys, seriously misguided and worse, who want this model of an economy in the US. Truly amazing.


    Can't remember anybody ever promoting this kind of (very old fashioned) Marxism-Leninism for the US.

    And either way - if you take those 6 areas of focus, those happen to be the areas where the communists really didn't do that bad - until the trade embargo kicked in of course.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 19, 2011 12:58 PM GMT
    Tazo995 said
    socalfitness saidThe amazing thing is the many RJ guys, seriously misguided and worse, who want this model of an economy in the US. Truly amazing.


    Can't remember anybody ever promoting this kind of (very old fashioned) Marxism-Leninism for the US.

    And either way - if you take those 6 areas of focus, those happen to be the areas where the communists really didn't do that bad - until the trade embargo kicked in of course.


    Taiwan has had similar trade restrictions with a similarly powerful and larger neighbor without nearly the same consequences. That said, I think without the US trade embargo, the Castros would have been overthrown a long time ago.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 19, 2011 1:07 PM GMT
    While communism is not perfect by any means, it's a hell of a lot better than capitalism.

    We are all seriously fucked unless we find a new system soon because what we have right now is dangerous and is responsible for about 90 % of the evils in the world.

    I've never understood why everything we do has to be motivated by some form of 'profit'.

    It's deeply unnatural to me.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 19, 2011 1:16 PM GMT
    whateveryo saidWhile communism is not perfect by any means, it's a hell of a lot better than capitalism.

    We are all seriously fucked unless we find a new system soon because what we have right now is dangerous and is responsible for about 90 % of the evils in the world.

    I've never understood why everything we do has to be motivated by some form of 'profit'.

    It's deeply unnatural to me.


    Seriously? Off the top of my head, capitalism is at least in large part responsible for massive increases in life expectancies, reducing the cost of living, and the primary driver of useful technology. Then there's Cuba. You would have rather we live in the same conditions as Cubans? (http://www.babalublog.com/archives/001470.html)

    Even China chose to adopt substantial market reforms to be more capitalistic in one of the most wholesale improvements to standard of living in our time. The beauty of markets is that you can either be motivated by profit or what drives profit which is society driven.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 19, 2011 1:26 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    whateveryo saidWhile communism is not perfect by any means, it's a hell of a lot better than capitalism.

    We are all seriously fucked unless we find a new system soon because what we have right now is dangerous and is responsible for about 90 % of the evils in the world.

    I've never understood why everything we do has to be motivated by some form of 'profit'.

    It's deeply unnatural to me.


    Seriously? Off the top of my head, capitalism is at least in large part responsible for massive increases in life expectancies, reducing the cost of living, and the primary driver of useful technology. Then there's Cuba. You would have rather we live in the same conditions as Cubans? (http://www.babalublog.com/archives/001470.html)

    Even China chose to adopt substantial market reforms to be more capitalistic in one of the most wholesale improvements to standard of living in our time. The beauty of markets is that you can either be motivated by profit or what drives profit which is society driven.


    It's also responsible for a health care system, like in the U.S, where statistically the richer you are, the longer your life expectancy is etc.

    Technological advances in science and healthcare are great, but not in a world where a pharmaceutical company can theoretically put a patent on a drug that can cure cancer/aids and charge people to high heaven for it. Thereby cutting out the majority of peoples who need it most.

    Capitalism is also responsible for our manic consumption of fossil fuels which is going to become a really big issue in the next 100 years or less when we have run out. These companies are not kept in check because of supposed 'free market' sensibilities and the persuit of short term profits, no matter what the cost.

    Now how earth is that a good thing ?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 19, 2011 1:35 PM GMT
    socalfitness saidThe amazing thing is the many RJ guys, seriously misguided and worse, who want this model of an economy in the US. Truly amazing.


    I really don't think many people actually do. Cuba is manifestly not a good place to live [though it is partly that way because of American sanctions].

    Communism, as it has been practiced in the USSR, China, Cuba and elsewhere has manifestly failed. I would contend that laissez-fair capitalism [which has not in fact been practices *anywhere*] would be an even worse failure.

    The only way is a mixed economy. The question is in the mixture.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 19, 2011 1:36 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    whateveryo saidWhile communism is not perfect by any means, it's a hell of a lot better than capitalism.

    We are all seriously fucked unless we find a new system soon because what we have right now is dangerous and is responsible for about 90 % of the evils in the world.

    I've never understood why everything we do has to be motivated by some form of 'profit'.

    It's deeply unnatural to me.


    Seriously? Off the top of my head, capitalism is at least in large part responsible for massive increases in life expectancies, reducing the cost of living, and the primary driver of useful technology. Then there's Cuba. You would have rather we live in the same conditions as Cubans? (http://www.babalublog.com/archives/001470.html)

    Even China chose to adopt substantial market reforms to be more capitalistic in one of the most wholesale improvements to standard of living in our time. The beauty of markets is that you can either be motivated by profit or what drives profit which is society driven.


    Cuba is not a good example of communism because it is a dictatorship. In fact, nothing remotely approaching an actual democratic communist country has ever existed in our world.

    In every case, the communist economic model has been paired with a totalitarian regime, which - of course - is nothing what Marx imagined.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 19, 2011 1:38 PM GMT
    whateveryo said
    riddler78 said
    whateveryo saidWhile communism is not perfect by any means, it's a hell of a lot better than capitalism.

    We are all seriously fucked unless we find a new system soon because what we have right now is dangerous and is responsible for about 90 % of the evils in the world.

    I've never understood why everything we do has to be motivated by some form of 'profit'.

    It's deeply unnatural to me.


    Seriously? Off the top of my head, capitalism is at least in large part responsible for massive increases in life expectancies, reducing the cost of living, and the primary driver of useful technology. Then there's Cuba. You would have rather we live in the same conditions as Cubans? (http://www.babalublog.com/archives/001470.html)

    Even China chose to adopt substantial market reforms to be more capitalistic in one of the most wholesale improvements to standard of living in our time. The beauty of markets is that you can either be motivated by profit or what drives profit which is society driven.


    It's also responsible for a health care system, like in the U.S, where statistically the richer you are, the longer your life expectancy is etc.

    Technological advances in science and healthcare are great, but not in a world where a pharmaceutical company can theoretically put a patent on a drug that can cure cancer/aids and charge people to high heaven for it. Thereby cutting out the majority of peoples who need it most.

    Capitalism is also responsible for our manic consumption of fossil fuels which is going to become a really big issue in the next 100 years or less when we have run out. These companies are not kept in check because of supposed 'free market' sensibilities and the persuit of short term profits, no matter what the cost.

    Now how earth is that a good thing ?


    Patents are designed to be an incentive to create new drugs and advances. Would it be better if these advances did not happen at all or at a slower pace? Patents expire. It's not inconceivable to think that the pressures a market driven system creates, results in innovations faster - and given innovations compound on each other, more than worth the 17 years.

    As for healthcare in general, you must not be familiar of how the US system is NOT a good example of markets given its dependence on third party payors and NOT consumer driven even if there is more flexibility for providers than other systems. Is a better system the NHS or the Canadian healthcare system that has been deemed unsustainable by the Canadian Medical Association?

    As for our manic consumption of fossil fuels, have you missed the massive investments as a result of markets into sustainable energy/green energy - driven in part by government incentives, but made in the first place because of a belief that it can be economically sustainable? Even if you use environmental degradation as the primary driver in determining how disastrous capitalism has been, how can you so easily dismiss the differences in East vs West Germany, North vs South Korea, the USSR versus Western Europe? In each of these cases, their environments were almost universally better where they were market driven because of the simple fact that even clean air and water as a commodity has value.

    Even environmentalists are starting to recognize that degredation comes at the lack of markets - not because of them: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/04/10/the_100_million_pond/?page=full
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 19, 2011 1:39 PM GMT
    Your absolutely right, communism in the true sense of the word has never been put into practice.

    Plus a lot of people have a distorted view of it because of all the propaganda that has been shoved down their throats.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 19, 2011 1:42 PM GMT
    Tazo995 said
    socalfitness saidThe amazing thing is the many RJ guys, seriously misguided and worse, who want this model of an economy in the US. Truly amazing.


    Can't remember anybody ever promoting this kind of (very old fashioned) Marxism-Leninism for the US.

    And either way - if you take those 6 areas of focus, those happen to be the areas where the communists really didn't do that bad - until the trade embargo kicked in of course.


    UNfortunately thats true.. this never would have happened had it not been for the US trade embargo.. its not a replacement for capitalism, since that can go just as awry, as noted above, but that doesnt mean the Cuban situation is a good example of communism
  • offshore

    Posts: 1294

    Apr 19, 2011 1:42 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    Tazo995 said
    socalfitness saidThe amazing thing is the many RJ guys, seriously misguided and worse, who want this model of an economy in the US. Truly amazing.


    Can't remember anybody ever promoting this kind of (very old fashioned) Marxism-Leninism for the US.

    And either way - if you take those 6 areas of focus, those happen to be the areas where the communists really didn't do that bad - until the trade embargo kicked in of course.


    Taiwan has had similar trade restrictions with a similarly powerful and larger neighbor without nearly the same consequences. That said, I think without the US trade embargo, the Castros would have been overthrown a long time ago.


    Are you kidding me? Trade restictions for Taiwan HOW? The Chinese never had any pwer over trade to/from taiwan, right after WWII Taiwan enjoyed trading partnership with the US and Japan. The strongest economic power of the time.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 19, 2011 1:44 PM GMT
    socalfitness saidThe amazing thing is the many RJ guys, seriously misguided and worse, who want this model of an economy in the US. Truly amazing.



    Umm...Socal, you know guys on here who want a communist regime under a dictator? Who hands over power to a relative when he's ill? lol, wut?

    srsly? O.o



  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 19, 2011 1:44 PM GMT
    whateveryo saidYour absolutely right, communism in the true sense of the word has never been put into practice.

    Plus a lot of people have a distorted view of it because of all the propaganda that has been shoved down their throats.


    You claimed that "While communism is not perfect by any means, it's a hell of a lot better than capitalism. We are all seriously fucked unless we find a new system soon because what we have right now is dangerous and is responsible for about 90 % of the evils in the world."

    So despite the fact that any attempts at communism - and there have been many, have resulted in carnage and wholesale slaughters, massive curtailing of rights, is the fault of implementation, and the system itself doesn't have any flaws approximating capitalism which is currently at its most ideal state?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 19, 2011 1:44 PM GMT
    I find it amazing that your only resource is the Miami herald which just soooo anti-castro. Considering that you have NEVER been to Cuba how can you comment on the plight of my fellow Cubans that live there. My famil that live would never come to the US. Good grief.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 19, 2011 1:45 PM GMT
    offshore said
    riddler78 said
    Tazo995 said
    socalfitness saidThe amazing thing is the many RJ guys, seriously misguided and worse, who want this model of an economy in the US. Truly amazing.


    Can't remember anybody ever promoting this kind of (very old fashioned) Marxism-Leninism for the US.

    And either way - if you take those 6 areas of focus, those happen to be the areas where the communists really didn't do that bad - until the trade embargo kicked in of course.


    Taiwan has had similar trade restrictions with a similarly powerful and larger neighbor without nearly the same consequences. That said, I think without the US trade embargo, the Castros would have been overthrown a long time ago.


    Are you kidding me? Trade restictions for Taiwan HOW? The Chinese never had any pwer over trade to/from taiwan, right after WWII Taiwan enjoyed trading partnership with the US and Japan. The strongest economic power of the time.


    Have you forgotten this little country called USSR and trade with Europe, Latin America?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 19, 2011 1:45 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    Even environmentalists are starting to recognize that degredation comes at the lack of markets - not because of them: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/04/10/the_100_million_pond/?page=full


    Ehm, thats not new news, in fact its very old, and its not one, but both... the Cuban situation of green is one of the worst in the Caribbean, second only to Haiti... the communist government completely wiped out its pristine natural forests in favour of the farm-labour agenda.. its literally the only Caribbean country Ive ever been to where I did not see an acre of true forest...

    But likewise, that does not mean capitalism keeps forests intact... Brazil is still deforesting at an alarming rate, and so are South East Asia and Africa
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 19, 2011 1:45 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    Even environmentalists are starting to recognize that degredation comes at the lack of markets - not because of them: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/04/10/the_100_million_pond/?page=full


    Ehm, thats not new news, in fact its very old, and its not one, but both... the Cuban situation of green is one of the worst in the Caribbean, second only to Haiti... the communist government completely wiped out its pristine natural forests in favour of the farm-labour agenda.. its literally the only Caribbean country Ive ever been to where I did not see an acre of true forest...

    But likewise, that does not mean capitalism keeps forests intact... Brazil is still deforesting at an alarming rate, and so are South East Asia and Africa
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 19, 2011 1:46 PM GMT
    riddler78 saidand the system itself doesn't have any flaws approximating capitalism which is currently at its most ideal state?


    ???
    wtf
    ?????
  • offshore

    Posts: 1294

    Apr 19, 2011 1:47 PM GMT
    To Riddler.

    Unbelivable, you really think unchecked growth/ thrown-away culture will sustain?

    We are using up the resources at a faster rate than ever, once that is all consume, then what?

    We are fucked as a species one way ot another.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 19, 2011 1:48 PM GMT
    Pato_Rico said
    riddler78 said
    Even environmentalists are starting to recognize that degredation comes at the lack of markets - not because of them: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/04/10/the_100_million_pond/?page=full


    Ehm, thats not new news, in fact its very old, and its not one, but both... the Cuban situation of green is one of the worst in the Caribbean, second only to Haiti... the communist government completely wiped out its pristine natural forests in favour of the farm-labour agenda.. its literally the only Caribbean country Ive ever been to where I did not see an acre of true forest...

    But likewise, that does not mean capitalism keeps forests intact... Brazil is still deforesting at an alarming rate, and so are South East Asia and Africa


    Ah - and you are going to make the claim that what Brazil is doing is market driven especially the management system of the forestry rights/land? Again, this destruction comes from the lack of markets (and necessary property rights), not because of them.