Palestinian TEENAGERS arrested over murder of 5 members of Fogel family. PA TV glorifies them as heroes/legends.

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    Apr 18, 2011 6:26 PM GMT
    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/palestinian-teenagers-arrested-over-murder-of-5-members-of-fogel-family-1.356514

    Palestinian teenagers arrested over murder of 5 members of Fogel family

    Shin Bet says the two Palestinian teenager suspects from the West Bank town of Awarta acted independently in carrying out Itamar massacre.


    By Anshel Pfeffer
    18-Apr-2011

    Two Palestinian teenagers from the West Bank town of Awarta have been arrested on suspicion of killing five members of the Fogel family in Itamar last month, the Shin Bet security service announced yesterday.

    Hakim Awad, 18, and Amjad Awad, 19, have both confessed to stabbing Udi and Ruth Fogel and three of their six children - Yoav, 11; Elad, 4; and three-month-old Hadas - on March 11, shortly after the family ate Shabbat dinner.

    The Shin Bet said both terror suspects are affiliated with the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP ) but that it has not found evidence suggesting they acted on behalf of an organized terror group. The agency said it receives many warnings about attacks planned by Palestinians acting independently.

    Hakim Awad was arrested on April 5 and Amjad Awad was arrested five days later (the two men are not related ). The arrests were not made public until yesterday.

    The suspects "described what they did with self-control and did not express regret over their actions at any stage of the investigation," said a senior Shin Bet official. He said the men entered Itamar with the intention of carrying out a terror attack and stealing weapons.

    Six additional Awarta residents, four of them members of Hakim Awad's family, were arrested on suspicion of involvement in hiding the weapon used in the attack and concealing additional evidence.

    According to the Shin Bet investigation, the chief suspects decided just hours before the murders that they would carry out a terror attack, although they allegedly asked a PFLP operative from Awarta for weapons several days before the attack. He has since been arrested, along with a man arrested Thursday in Ramallah who is accused of holding two rifles the prime suspects allegedly stole from Itamar.

    Carrying several knives and wire-cutting shears, Hakim Awad and Amjad Awad crossed from Awarta to the neighboring settlement of Itamar in around 10 minutes, climbed the security fence unnoticed and walked about 400 meters into the settlement, according to investigators.

    Once inside, they allegedly broke into an empty home and stole an M-16 rifle, a weapons cartridge and a helmet before proceeding to the Fogel family home.

    The suspects noticed [11 year old] Yoav and [4 year old] Elad Fogel in the window before entering the house, and stabbed them to death in their sleep, the Shin Bet says. The parents attempted to fend off the attackers, who opened fire with the stolen weapon.

    Fearing the shots would bring neighbors running, the suspects fled but remained nearby. When they saw that the rainstorm appeared to have provided adequate cover, Amjad Awad went back in to steal an M-16 in the house - and for the first time noticed baby Hadas, who had been in her parents' bedroom. According to investigators, he stabbed her to death, then saw two more children - eight-year-old Ro'i and two-year-old Yishai - but fled rather than kill them and risk being found.

    Around 90 minutes later, at 12:30 A.M., the oldest Fogel child - Tamar, 12 - came home from a youth group activity and discovered the bodies of her parents and siblings.

    By then, says the Shin Bet, the suspects had returned to Awarta, and were hiding at the home of Hakim Awad's uncle, Salah Awad. He stands accused of helping them hide the knives and the stolen weapons and burn their blood-drenched clothes, after being told about the attack.

    Hakim Awad's father, brother and another uncle were also arrested.

    Shortly after the attack was reported, Israel Defense Forces troops scouted the area for terrorists and raided Awarta several hours later, on the assumption that the assailants had come from there. The town was placed under military curfew for four days and hundreds of its 8,000 residents were detained.

    The Shin Bet said the reason the investigation took a month was that so few people knew about it and there was barely any groundwork laid for the attack.
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Apr 18, 2011 6:30 PM GMT
    I read about this, yesterday.
    It's just awful.
    But, it should come as no surprise when each generation of Palestinians teaches its children that their only goal in life is to destroy Israel and her people.
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    Apr 18, 2011 6:35 PM GMT
    True, almost worse than the murders is the celebration of it by 1/3rd of the Palestinian Arabs:

    Poll: One-third of Palestinians support Itamar massacre
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/poll-one-third-of-palestinians-support-itamar-massacre-1.354477
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    Apr 18, 2011 10:48 PM GMT
    I don't think it's a matter of "this family had it coming." When people of any nationality are pushed to the brink by a stronger, wealthier, more militarily adept adversary, terrorism is the only strategy they have.

    Maybe coming from an occupied people, I have more empathy for the Palestinians plight. Of course, the IRA tried, for the most part, to not take lives. None of this excuses murder in general or this act in particular, but until the international community (and mostly the US) puts pressure on Israel (and, yes, it's Israel being the larger, more powerful agent) to find a piece agreement, nothing will change. icon_cry.gif
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    Apr 18, 2011 10:56 PM GMT
    Christian73> When people of any nationality are pushed to the brink by a stronger, wealthier, more militarily adept adversary, terrorism is the only strategy they have.

    Pretty much every study of terrorism over recent decades disputes this.
    To the contrary, terrorism sprouts in permissive rather than totalitarian societies.


    Christian73> until the international community (and mostly the US) puts pressure on Israel (and, yes, it's Israel being the larger, more powerful agent) to find a piece agreement, nothing will change.

    So you want Israel, it "being the larger, more powerful agent," to determine - unilaterally? - the framework of a peace "agreement"?!
    Or does it need a negotiating partner which (unlike Hamas and the 1/3rd - if not half - of the Palestinian Arabs) is interested in peaceful coexistence?

    Israel, and the Jewish Agency before it, was ready and willing to make peace in 1922, 1939, 1947, 1949, etc. For decades the problem was that virtually all Arab parties rejected peace. Recall that not only was Sadat assassinated after he finally gave peace a chance, but that Egypt was expelled from the Arab League. It is the same intransigence (most recently at Camp David and Taba) that continues to be the obstacle to peace.

    UNSCR 242, Oslo Accords, Camp David 2000 and Taba 2001
    (I support the Clinton COMPROMISE parameters. Do you?!)

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/354843

    Yalla, Peace!
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1285693

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    Apr 19, 2011 12:07 AM GMT
    jprichva saidWait for Pouncer and Ian and Realifedad to tell us how justified this was and that this family had it coming.

    3.....2.....1........


    _____________________________________________________________


    Now you know better than this, I don't even remember anyone praising such killings, but you nor I have had family members killed by Israeli's or fanatic settlers either, so you nor I know how we would react if put in a situation like some Palestinians have been put in do we

    The thing that worries me about this is what would bring such young men to do something this drastic if not pushed by events in their lives. Its terrible how that family died. But you'll have to realize too that the Propaganda Machine over there and the AIPAC Propaganda Machine over here will not report if those youth had to watch their mothers or other relatives killed by settlers or Israeli soldiers. If you want the background story look up "IF AMERICANS KNEW" there is a lot of factual 'complete' story articles there, unfiltered by anyones Propaganda filters.

    But you shouldn't impute to me hating Israeli's or any jews to any such point that I would wish them killed like this family were.

    It says those boys showed no regret, Do the Israeli soldiers show regret and remorse for shooting Palestinian children in the head ? Had these Palestinian boys seen such shootings at a young age to calous their hearts and minds ? 1500 Palestinian children have been murdered since 2000 and 130 Israeli children murdered. The Israeli's hold the most power there for the most killings, so at what effect on Palestinian boys ? Israel holds some 'credit' (blame), these things don't happen in a vacuum, just for the hell of it.

    Would it do any harm to peace if the settlements were stopped by Israel and if they put an end to the fanatic settlers harassing, beating up and or killing Palestinians?

    Why does Israel put so much effort into reporting this unfortunate murdered family on the headlines but stay completely silent about the 1500 Palestinians killed at their own hands? The OP refused to address this, will anyone else address this hypocracy ?
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    Apr 19, 2011 2:10 AM GMT
    jprichva said
    Pouncer saidThat's right Christian73. Northern Ireland, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Burma, Algeria etc. were all "permissive", not "totalitarian" societies.

    This is the second topic on a gay fitness site about one murdered family of five. A family that thought it would be wise to up sticks onto conquered land and move their three young children into a warzone. How many threads are the al-Simouni family in Gaza, who lost 29 of their members to "rogue" Israeli bombs while sitting perfectly legally in their own homes, going to get?

    Everyone on this thread knows the name of the one Israeli currently being held prisoner by the Palestinians (Gilad Shalit). Yet does anyone know the names of the 5,935 Palestinians currently imprisoned by Israel? 269 of which are children? Hundreds of which have yet to be charged with any crime whatsoever?

    This was way too easy. Translation: They had it coming.
    You really are completely without human decency.


    __________________________________________________________


    Did you study each case to make such a statement ?

    Did the 1500 Palestinians children have it coming? Many of whom died with a shot to the head from a sniper, were these children terrorists throwing stones up at the sniper ? LOL !!!

    lets be realistic, Let the local government shoot 1500 children in my Tri Cities Metro area of about 400,000 people and see how much rataliation you get for that shit. What the hell is this we're experiencing with Israel, are they 'entitled' to kill with impunity or something ?

    Your short statement is very telling and part of the problem, you don't just off the cuff just assume guilt, we don't in the US (until bush's worst of the worst bullshit), why do you think its OK in Israel. The affects from this attitude you exhibit, is just the begining to what many Palestinians have to face every day and put it together and fanatics who think this way bring on retaliation, Its to be expected. Its the natural result of being fucked over time and again from every angle.
  • TrentGrad

    Posts: 1541

    Apr 19, 2011 2:29 AM GMT
    Christian73 saidI don't think it's a matter of "this family had it coming." When people of any nationality are pushed to the brink by a stronger, wealthier, more militarily adept adversary, terrorism is the only strategy they have.

    Maybe coming from an occupied people, I have more empathy for the Palestinians plight. Of course, the IRA tried, for the most part, to not take lives. None of this excuses murder in general or this act in particular, but until the international community (and mostly the US) puts pressure on Israel (and, yes, it's Israel being the larger, more powerful agent) to find a piece agreement, nothing will change. icon_cry.gif


    Usually Christian, you and I agree quite a bit...but on this, I don't agree with you at all.

    I can't even imagine the depths of depravity that one would have to reach to take a knife and murder children. They even butchered a 4 month old child!!!

    As the benefactors of Palestinian aggression, Iran and Syria have their hands all over this conflict...and so it should come as no surprise that everytime Israel takes steps to move towards a negotiated settlement, they get hit with rockets and terror attacks from Hizbollah in Lebanon, or from Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Al Aqsa in the West Bank and Gaza.

    Until the world brings the hammer down on Syria and Iran for supporting Hizbollah and Hamas, it has no business bringing any hammer down on Israel!

    Indeed, it was Hamas' constant rocket attacks that created the winning conditions for Netanyahu's Likud and their conservative coalition partners...some of whom would support Israel taking a MUCH harsher line with the Palestinians than they have taken to this point.

    Remove Syria and Iran from the equation, and both the Palestinian territories and Lebanon will be all the better for it!
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    Apr 19, 2011 4:15 AM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidChristian73> When people of any nationality are pushed to the brink by a stronger, wealthier, more militarily adept adversary, terrorism is the only strategy they have.

    Pretty much every study of terrorism over recent decades disputes this.
    To the contrary, terrorism sprouts in permissive rather than totalitarian societies.


    Christian73> until the international community (and mostly the US) puts pressure on Israel (and, yes, it's Israel being the larger, more powerful agent) to find a piece agreement, nothing will change.

    So you want Israel, it "being the larger, more powerful agent," to determine - unilaterally? - the framework of a peace "agreement"?!
    Or does it need a negotiating partner which (unlike Hamas and the 1/3rd - if not half - of the Palestinian Arabs) is interested in peaceful coexistence?

    Israel, and the Jewish Agency before it, was ready and willing to make peace in 1922, 1939, 1947, 1949, etc. For decades the problem was that virtually all Arab parties rejected peace. Recall that not only was Sadat assassinated after he finally gave peace a chance, but that Egypt was expelled from the Arab League. It is the same intransigence (most recently at Camp David and Taba) that continues to be the obstacle to peace.

    UNSCR 242, Oslo Accords, Camp David 2000 and Taba 2001
    (I support the Clinton COMPROMISE parameters. Do you?!)

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/354843

    Yalla, Peace!
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1285693



    Really? Saudi Arabia (where the 9/11 hijackers were from) is a permissive country?

    Never mind hat what you've said has nothing to do with what I said about Northern Ireland. The issue isn't totalitarianism versus liberalism. It's about what is tactically possible during war time. I do not condone what these people did, but Israel (and the US) are the ones with the power in this situation.

    Of course, Israel needs a negotiating partner but its internal politics have gone nothing but rightward in the last few years and the rhetoric is not helpful.

    I'm not interested in getting into a "link off" where you try and drown out dissent by posting a kazillion pro-Israel links.
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    Apr 19, 2011 6:58 AM GMT
    realifedad said
    jprichva saidWait for Pouncer and Ian and Realifedad to tell us how justified this was and that this family had it coming.

    3.....2.....1........


    _____________________________________________________________


    Now you know better than this, I don't even remember anyone praising such killings, but you nor I have had family members killed by Israeli's or fanatic settlers either, so you nor I know how we would react if put in a situation like some Palestinians have been put in do we

    The thing that worries me about this is what would bring such young men to do something this drastic if not pushed by events in their lives. Its terrible how that family died. But you'll have to realize too that the Propaganda Machine over there and the AIPAC Propaganda Machine over here will not report if those youth had to watch their mothers or other relatives killed by settlers or Israeli soldiers. If you want the background story look up "IF AMERICANS KNEW" there is a lot of factual 'complete' story articles there, unfiltered by anyones Propaganda filters.

    But you shouldn't impute to me hating Israeli's or any jews to any such point that I would wish them killed like this family were.

    It says those boys showed no regret, Do the Israeli soldiers show regret and remorse for shooting Palestinian children in the head ? Had these Palestinian boys seen such shootings at a young age to calous their hearts and minds ? 1500 Palestinian children have been murdered since 2000 and 130 Israeli children murdered. The Israeli's hold the most power there for the most killings, so at what effect on Palestinian boys ? Israel holds some 'credit' (blame), these things don't happen in a vacuum, just for the hell of it.

    Would it do any harm to peace if the settlements were stopped by Israel and if they put an end to the fanatic settlers harassing, beating up and or killing Palestinians?

    Why does Israel put so much effort into reporting this unfortunate murdered family on the headlines but stay completely silent about the 1500 Palestinians killed at their own hands? The OP refused to address this, will anyone else address this hypocracy ?



    LMAO jprichva you totally called this one. All realifedad did was turn it against Israel. Hey Realifedad, you should defend these murderers. You'd be great at it. You can say things like, "sure they murdered but do the Israeli soldiers show regret or remorse for shooting children in the head?!? Do Chinese soldiers show remorse when they oppress Tibet? Does the leader of Syria show regret for killing protestors? This is my proof to justify and ignore killings of Israelis by Palestinian teenagers."

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    Apr 19, 2011 7:13 AM GMT
    I'm sooooo tired of hearing about isreal and palestine.
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    Apr 19, 2011 7:15 AM GMT
    dekiruman saidI'm sooooo tired of hearing about isreal and palestine.


    from now on I will make it my personal mission to derail every thread regarding this topic.
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    Apr 19, 2011 7:16 AM GMT
  • mizu5

    Posts: 2599

    Apr 19, 2011 8:20 AM GMT
    AWW A HAMSTER!
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    Apr 19, 2011 2:14 PM GMT
    JAKEBENSON said
    realifedad said
    jprichva saidWait for Pouncer and Ian and Realifedad to tell us how justified this was and that this family had it coming.

    3.....2.....1........


    _____________________________________________________________


    Now you know better than this, I don't even remember anyone praising such killings, but you nor I have had family members killed by Israeli's or fanatic settlers either, so you nor I know how we would react if put in a situation like some Palestinians have been put in do we

    The thing that worries me about this is what would bring such young men to do something this drastic if not pushed by events in their lives. Its terrible how that family died. But you'll have to realize too that the Propaganda Machine over there and the AIPAC Propaganda Machine over here will not report if those youth had to watch their mothers or other relatives killed by settlers or Israeli soldiers. If you want the background story look up "IF AMERICANS KNEW" there is a lot of factual 'complete' story articles there, unfiltered by anyones Propaganda filters.

    But you shouldn't impute to me hating Israeli's or any jews to any such point that I would wish them killed like this family were.

    It says those boys showed no regret, Do the Israeli soldiers show regret and remorse for shooting Palestinian children in the head ? Had these Palestinian boys seen such shootings at a young age to calous their hearts and minds ? 1500 Palestinian children have been murdered since 2000 and 130 Israeli children murdered. The Israeli's hold the most power there for the most killings, so at what effect on Palestinian boys ? Israel holds some 'credit' (blame), these things don't happen in a vacuum, just for the hell of it.

    Would it do any harm to peace if the settlements were stopped by Israel and if they put an end to the fanatic settlers harassing, beating up and or killing Palestinians?

    Why does Israel put so much effort into reporting this unfortunate murdered family on the headlines but stay completely silent about the 1500 Palestinians killed at their own hands? The OP refused to address this, will anyone else address this hypocracy ?



    LMAO jprichva you totally called this one. All realifedad did was turn it against Israel. Hey Realifedad, you should defend these murderers. You'd be great at it. You can say things like, "sure they murdered but do the Israeli soldiers show regret or remorse for shooting children in the head?!? Do Chinese soldiers show remorse when they oppress Tibet? Does the leader of Syria show regret for killing protestors? This is my proof to justify and ignore killings of Israelis by Palestinian teenagers."




    Jake you know better than this !! The point was and is, Israel screams and yells and whines and gaines financially over these very terrible tragedies, using these terrible events for turning them into propagand for playing the victim card, while, covering their own even more agregious actions in killing 1500 Palestinian children (compared to 130 Israeli children, thats ten to one )

    Jake and JPrich, where are the cries and headlines for them ? Why does the Zionist propaganda mashine cover over those murders and the fact that some Zionist Fanatic Settlers run off, beat up ans sometimes kill palestinians. Why aren't those murders exposed ? Zionist Propaganda covers all that up by bringing only one sided attention to only those committed against jews.

    One doesn't counter balance the other, both are terrible, but the side with more power and a strong Propaganda tool only exposes one side !! My exposing that fact should not in any way be taken as condoning those murders.

    So Jake, come at me with 'good faith' fairness, not this stuff above, you previousle got in an arguement with C4 over Fanatic Settlers being part of the problem, this murder situation exposes that problem that you admitted to. Did you read about this settlement and their beliefs in the articles found on "IF AMERICANS KNEW" ? Don't be so one sided !!! You asked me to "calm down" and I agreed, so you need to show good faith efforts to not be so one sided.

    By the way, look up "THE AMERICAN MUSLIM" extensive interviews in Gaza have been conducted and it turns out that the story of celebrations in the streets of GAZA never took place, but its being used by the Propaganda Machine and AIPAC far and wide to play again the victim card and make the Palestinians look like the only agressors. Read that information, you will see Jake that there are holes throughout most of these Propaganda stories.
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    Apr 19, 2011 2:41 PM GMT
    Pretty much every study of terrorism over recent decades disputes this.
    To the contrary, terrorism sprouts in permissive rather than totalitarian societies.


    Christian73> Really? Saudi Arabia (where the 9/11 hijackers were from) is a permissive country?

    Don't be silly. They neither trained nor perpetrated their attack in Saudi Arabia.

    The Terrorism Reader: A Historical Anthology from Aristotle to the IRA and the PLO by Walter Laqueur, p. 255:
    A comparison of terrorist activities over the last century shows, beyond any shadow of doubt, that violent protest movements do not appear where despotism is worst but, on the contrary, in permissive democratic societies or ineffective authoritarian regimes.

    Please don't even try to go to "desperation" or "poverty" cause terrorism, that is just as wrong.
    To the contrary, it is terrorism that causes poverty, and the WB&G are case studies.


    C73> It's about what is tactically possible during war time.

    BS. The stronger party - or elements within it - could just as well resort to such measures, as could parties roughly at parity.
    In fact, there was Arab terrorism against Israel prior to 1967/1973 when Israel did not have military superiority.
    Yet there were no such instances of Israelis/Jews blowing up civilian airplanes or slitting the throats of babies.

    Saddam didn't gas Kurds because he was weaker but because he was willing to do it.
    Assad didn't kill 10,000-80,000 at Hama because he was weaker but because he was willing to do it.
    Iran's suicide attacks against Iraq continued even as it gained military superiority.
    Japan's Kamikaze attacks began before Iwo Jima.

    It is about morality.
    What you are - or are not - willing to do.
    Whether the ends justify the means.


    Doesn't Israel need a negotiating partner which (unlike Hamas and the 1/3rd - if not half - of the Palestinian Arabs) is interested in peaceful coexistence?

    C73> Of course, Israel needs a negotiating partner but its internal politics have gone nothing but rightward in the last few years

    Why did Israel's politics shift to the right?!

    And does that really prevent peace?

    Sadat finally gave peace a chance under Israel's most right-wing government ever under Menachem Begin.
    The Madrid conference (which paved the way to Oslo) began with another right winger, Yitzhak Shamir, as Israel's PM.


    C73> I'm not interested in getting into a "link off" where you try and drown out dissent by posting a kazillion pro-Israel links.

    The TWO links I provided were to RJ forum topics discussing peace!
    Thought you might want to post something there.


    Just as it did in our previous interaction, your bias is showing.
    From last September:
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1121215

    It's called debate, and usually it is considered good form to provide links supporting what one says. (You might want to try it... as you do on other topics.) So please, if you aren't going to defend and support what you say using the feeble cop out that you don't want to debate the issues... perhaps you should remember that before you blurt out falsehoods as above.

    Let's simulate using another subject and see how what you say plays out:

    C73> Homosexuals are insane and kids need 2 parents of opposite gender

    C4> The APA removed homosexuality from the DSM in 1973 [links]
    Study after study show that children of gay parents are fine. [links]

    C73> as expected, you post endless paragraphs and links to overwhelm anyone who disagrees with you.... and anyhow, if gays weren't child molesters they'd be more accepted.

    C4> Gay people aren't child molesters.

    C73> You are not an impartial or objective interlocutor when it comes to homosexuality. You post ONLY pro-gay stuff....


    Topic: Hamas murders 4 people, including 2 women, 1 of whom was pregnant

    Abbas> We [the Palestinian Authority] are not interested in spilling Israeli blood. We want the two peoples to live regular lives in real peace.

    Obama> The message should go out to Hamas and everybody else who is taking credit for these heinous crimes, that this is not going to stop us from not only ensuring a secure Israel but also securing a longer-lasting peace

    Nasrallah> This is the message, and this is the way to liberate Jerusalem and Palestine. Hamas and other resistance fighters of their kind should hear voices of support from the entire Arab and Muslim world.

    Christian73> [bad Israel.] I empathize, if not sympathize….

    …not with the people just murdered in cold blood, an attempt to derail the peace process, but with the attackers?!
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    Apr 19, 2011 3:29 PM GMT
    Ever the Obnoxious Pain in the Ass C4 continues his reams of "I and my Zionist Propaganda are always right" Welcome Christian to the reality of any attempt at conversation with this Fanatic, He'll soon be telling you in his Propagandis way that Palestinians had no formal government so therefore no rights to the land or their homes and under those circumstances the Zionists can take any land and build anywhere they want until some peace process sets up formal 'state' lines and formal government for Palestine, until then the Palestinians have no reason to gripe or retaliate.

    Zionist Factions have the power so they're just fine running off Palestinians. Up is down, Right is wrong, Left is right, as long as its in favor of the Zionist Far righter Zealot leaders of Israel. and no !!! I see nothing wrong with a Jewis homeland, just a whole lot wrong with Zionist Fanatics using Fanatic Propaganda to justify their misdeeds
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 19, 2011 4:05 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidPretty much every study of terrorism over recent decades disputes this.
    To the contrary, terrorism sprouts in permissive rather than totalitarian societies.


    Christian73> Really? Saudi Arabia (where the 9/11 hijackers were from) is a permissive country?

    Don't be silly. They neither trained nor perpetrated their attack in Saudi Arabia.

    The Terrorism Reader: A Historical Anthology from Aristotle to the IRA and the PLO by Walter Laqueur, p. 255:
    A comparison of terrorist activities over the last century shows, beyond any shadow of doubt, that violent protest movements do not appear where despotism is worst but, on the contrary, in permissive democratic societies or ineffective authoritarian regimes.

    Please don't even try to go to "desperation" or "poverty" cause terrorism, that is just as wrong.
    To the contrary, it is terrorism that causes poverty, and the WB&G are case studies.


    C73> It's about what is tactically possible during war time.

    BS. The stronger party - or elements within it - could just as well resort to such measures, as could parties roughly at parity.
    In fact, there was Arab terrorism against Israel prior to 1967/1973 when Israel did not have military superiority.
    Yet there were no such instances of Israelis/Jews blowing up civilian airplanes or slitting the throats of babies.

    Saddam didn't gas Kurds because he was weaker but because he was willing to do it.
    Assad didn't kill 10,000-80,000 at Hama because he was weaker but because he was willing to do it.
    Iran's suicide attacks against Iraq continued even as it gained military superiority.
    Japan's Kamikaze attacks began before Iwo Jima.

    It is about morality.
    What you are - or are not - willing to do.
    Whether the ends justify the means.


    Doesn't Israel need a negotiating partner which (unlike Hamas and the 1/3rd - if not half - of the Palestinian Arabs) is interested in peaceful coexistence?

    C73> Of course, Israel needs a negotiating partner but its internal politics have gone nothing but rightward in the last few years

    Why did Israel's politics shift to the right?!

    And does that really prevent peace?

    Sadat finally gave peace a chance under Israel's most right-wing government ever under Menachem Begin.
    The Madrid conference (which paved the way to Oslo) began with another right winger, Yitzhak Shamir, as Israel's PM.


    C73> I'm not interested in getting into a "link off" where you try and drown out dissent by posting a kazillion pro-Israel links.

    The TWO links I provided were to RJ forum topics discussing peace!
    Thought you might want to post something there.


    Just as it did in our previous interaction, your bias is showing.
    From last September:
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1121215

    It's called debate, and usually it is considered good form to provide links supporting what one says. (You might want to try it... as you do on other topics.) So please, if you aren't going to defend and support what you say using the feeble cop out that you don't want to debate the issues... perhaps you should remember that before you blurt out falsehoods as above.

    Let's simulate using another subject and see how what you say plays out:

    C73> Homosexuals are insane and kids need 2 parents of opposite gender

    C4> The APA removed homosexuality from the DSM in 1973 [links]
    Study after study show that children of gay parents are fine. [links]

    C73> as expected, you post endless paragraphs and links to overwhelm anyone who disagrees with you.... and anyhow, if gays weren't child molesters they'd be more accepted.

    C4> Gay people aren't child molesters.

    C73> You are not an impartial or objective interlocutor when it comes to homosexuality. You post ONLY pro-gay stuff....


    Topic: Hamas murders 4 people, including 2 women, 1 of whom was pregnant

    Abbas> We [the Palestinian Authority] are not interested in spilling Israeli blood. We want the two peoples to live regular lives in real peace.

    Obama> The message should go out to Hamas and everybody else who is taking credit for these heinous crimes, that this is not going to stop us from not only ensuring a secure Israel but also securing a longer-lasting peace

    Nasrallah> This is the message, and this is the way to liberate Jerusalem and Palestine. Hamas and other resistance fighters of their kind should hear voices of support from the entire Arab and Muslim world.

    Christian73> [bad Israel.] I empathize, if not sympathize….

    …not with the people just murdered in cold blood, an attempt to derail the peace process, but with the attackers?!


    Thank you for proving my point about not wanting to bother debating with you. You're welcome to have read one book on the subject of terrorism and presume to tell the rest of us that it's the only valid study in existence, but all you do is reinforce what most people see here as your immovable commitment to defending the worst of Israel's depredations and smearing all Palestinians with the actions of a few.

    At one time I was an ardent supporter of Israel, but it's own actions and those of AIPAC and AJC within the US have changed my perspective.

    An inability to empathize with Palestinians is the primary reason why Israel gets no where with the peace process and why people like you no longer have credibility with an increasing number of Americans who are tired of seeing billions of our tax dollars go to arm an oppressive and increasingly right-wing regime.
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    Apr 19, 2011 6:14 PM GMT
    christian73> You're welcome to have read one book on the subject of terrorism and presume to tell the rest of us that it's the only valid study in existence

    I have read many more than 1 book on the subject and all you've shown is that you haven't read any and are immune to facts and can't intelligently discuss the subject (crying about the other side being so ghastly as to provide quotes and links to support what he says).


    Christian73> your immovable commitment to defending the worst of Israel's depredations and smearing all Palestinians with the actions of a few.

    I'm sure you can't quote me and have again lowered yourself, this time to arguing against straw men.


    Christian73> At one time I was an ardent supporter of Israel, but it's own actions and those of AIPAC and AJC within the US have changed my perspective.

    A common line, which is complete BS.
    We've seen that you are immune to the "actions" of Hamas, PRC, Islamic Jihad, etc - empathizing with the murderers.
    But if Israel/Jews discuss the issues... that changes your "perspective"?


    Christian73> An inability to empathize with Palestinians is the primary reason why Israel gets no where with the peace process

    False and logical nonsense.
    Was it the lack of Egyptian empathy which precluded them from making peace with Israel prior to the late 1970s?

    Israel was willing to establish a Palestinian Arab state on 97% of the disputed territories, including the Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem (with some shared mechanism over the Temple Mount), including the so-called "right of return" to the nascent Arab state and $30 Billion in assistance to the refugees and their descendents.

    Arafat rejected this without as much as making a counter-offer.

    Today even Abbas refuses to acknowledge that Israel is a Jewish state (let alone should remain such).
    If empathy is an ingredient of peacemaking, then you have put the shoe on the wrong foot.

    Benny Morris:
    The shift in Zionist ideology from an ideologically pristine demand for all of Palestine to a sober acceptance of partition was not paralleled in the development of the Palestinian national movement. This asymmetry has underpinned the conflict since the 1930s.

    Yalla, Peace!
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1285693

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    Apr 19, 2011 6:22 PM GMT
    Ah, more idiocy-for-the-cause:

    p> Japan was vastly militarily inferior to the US at the time of the kamikaze bombings

    As I already noted, the Kamikaze attacks began before Iwo Jima.
    One can argue that the US military had the upper hand, but that misses the pont.

    p> Iran at the time of the "human waves" was fighting a much deadlier Iraq - an Iraq armed to the teeth by the West with chemical and biological weapons, and in possession of Western maps and satellites (Iraq would emerge from the war with the fourth largest army in the world).

    False on every count. What is true is that Iraq received some Western assistance, but this happened AFTER the tide of the war had changed and Iran had repelled Iraqi forces from Iran and was pushing into Iraq. (Note said Iraqi army, the 4th largest in the world, was composed of Soviet planes, tanks and weapon systems.) The point, relevant to this discussion, is that Iran persisted with its human wave attacks even when it was the stronger force.


    p> Why employ a suicide bomber when you have a stealth bomber? Why commit suicide for the cause when you've already got tanks and sonar "for the cause"? When Ahmed Ben Bella, the leader of the Algerian revolution, was asked why he was placing bombs in baby carriages and leaving them in the soot to explode amongst the French forces and their collaborators, he answered: "If the French will give us some of their helicopters, some of their aeroplanes, we will give them our baby carriages."

    While we know that your wet dream isn't to end the fighting but that terrorist groups get stealth bombers and tanks, there are many groups throughout history that lacked these and did not resort to the cold blooded murder of innocents.

    p> there is a campaign of terrorism currently being directed against Iran, particularly against Iranian nuclear scientists. Great to know that c4 now reckons Iran to be a "permissive" society.

    Epic fail.


    There was Arab terrorism against Israel prior to 1967/1973 when Israel did not have military superiority.
    Yet there were no such instances of Israelis/Jews blowing up civilian airplanes or slitting the throats of babies.


    p> [no contest]


    Saddam didn't gas Kurds because he was weaker but because he was willing to do it.
    Assad didn't kill 10,000-80,000 at Hama because he was weaker but because he was willing to do it.


    p> [no contest]


    It is about morality.
    What you are - or are not - willing to do.
    Whether the ends justify the means.

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    Apr 19, 2011 6:45 PM GMT
    christian73> You're welcome to have read one book on the subject of terrorism and presume to tell the rest of us that it's the only valid study in existence

    c4>I have read many more than 1 book on the subject and all you've shown is that you haven't read any and are immune to facts and can't intelligently discuss the subject (crying about the other side being so ghastly as to provide quotes and links to support what he says).

    I've read several books on the subject and they do not conform to your views on the matter. I can discuss most subjects intelligently, but you are not interested in discussion or debate just perpetuating one narrow view of a complicated issue.


    Christian73> your immovable commitment to defending the worst of Israel's depredations and smearing all Palestinians with the actions of a few.

    c4>I'm sure you can't quote me and have again lowered yourself, this time to arguing against straw men.

    I needn't quote you on anything. This forum is rife with your relentlessly anti-Palestinian threads.


    Christian73> At one time I was an ardent supporter of Israel, but it's own actions and those of AIPAC and AJC within the US have changed my perspective.

    C4>A common line, which is complete BS.
    We've seen that you are immune to the "actions" of Hamas, PRC, Islamic Jihad, etc - empathizing with the murderers.
    But if Israel/Jews discuss the issues... that changes your "perspective"?

    Incorrect. I've stated as such but your welcome to continue quoting me out of context. It's what you do best.

    Christian73> An inability to empathize with Palestinians is the primary reason why Israel gets no where with the peace process

    C4>False and logical nonsense.
    Was it the lack of Egyptian empathy which precluded them from making peace with Israel prior to the late 1970s?

    Israel was willing to establish a Palestinian Arab state on 97% of the disputed territories, including the Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem (with some shared mechanism over the Temple Mount), including the so-called "right of return" to the nascent Arab state and $30 Billion in assistance to the refugees and their descendents.

    Arafat rejected this without as much as making a counter-offer.

    Today even Abbas refuses to acknowledge that Israel is a Jewish state (let alone should remain such).
    If empathy is an ingredient of peacemaking, then you have put the shoe on the wrong foot.

    Benny Morris:
    The shift in Zionist ideology from an ideologically pristine demand for all of Palestine to a sober acceptance of partition was not paralleled in the development of the Palestinian national movement. This asymmetry has underpinned the conflict since the 1930s.

    Yalla, Peace!
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1285693

    To my knowledge, we are not discussing Egypt in the 1970s and Arafat has been dead for more than 6 years. If you want to keep arguing history and what could have happened when a more moderate government led Israel and a dead man rejected a decent offer, you're welcome to. But I fail to see how it's germane to the conflict today. What is relevant is that people with nothing, have nothing to lose. That's why the Palestinians engage in terrorism and why despite their vastly superior (and American-funded) firepower, Israel continues to suffer from these horrible attacks.
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    Apr 19, 2011 7:25 PM GMT
    Christian73> I've read several books on the subject and they do not conform to your views on the matter. I can discuss most subjects intelligently

    Then discuss it intelligently rather than whining that I quoted a source or posted a supportive link.
    Which authors have you read?
    What did they say that pertains to our discussion?


    I'm sure you can't quote me and have again lowered yourself, this time to arguing against straw men.

    C73> I needn't quote you on anything. This forum is rife with your relentlessly anti-Palestinian threads.

    This is your idea of "intelligent discussion"?
    If what you say is true, you should be able to come up with 3 examples in about 3 seconds.


    Was it the lack of Egyptian empathy which precluded them from making peace with Israel prior to the late 1970s?

    C73> we are not discussing Egypt in the 1970s

    We are discussing making peace, and looking at other regional instances puts your thesis to the test.
    A test that your notion fails.


    Israel was willing to establish a Palestinian Arab state on 97% of the disputed territories, including the Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem (with some shared mechanism over the Temple Mount), including the so-called "right of return" to the nascent Arab state and $30 Billion in assistance to the refugees and their descendents.

    Arafat rejected this without as much as making a counter-offer.


    C73> Arafat has been dead for more than 6 years.

    Again that misses the point (not to mention that his legacy continues while people like pouncer pine his death).
    It was not "empathy" (certainly not on Israel's part) that was missing at Camp David or Taba.
    Or since (e.g. the Olmert Plan - or is 2 years ago also "history"?).

    Lack of Israeli empathy for the Palestinian Arabs is not an obstacle (let alone the obstacle) to peace.


    C73> If you want to keep arguing history

    We weren't arguing history, just testing what you selectively say about the present against the very recent past.
    The very past that has produced the present situation.
    But this is you avoiding talking about the present:

    Today even Abbas refuses to acknowledge that Israel is a Jewish state (let alone should remain such).
    If empathy is an ingredient of peacemaking, then you have put the shoe on the wrong foot.

    Benny Morris:
    The shift in Zionist ideology from an ideologically pristine demand for all of Palestine to a sober acceptance of partition was not paralleled in the development of the Palestinian national movement. This asymmetry has underpinned the conflict since the 1930s.

    Yalla, Peace!
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1285693

    C73> ?

    To emphasize, "since the 1930s" isn't just history, it includes the present.


    C73> What is relevant is that people with nothing, have nothing to lose. That's why the Palestinians engage in terrorism and why despite their vastly superior (and American-funded) firepower, Israel continues to suffer from these horrible attacks.

    Bunk. There is no one who has "nothing to lose". People in these territories are generally better off than their neighbors in Arab countries (even if that's not saying much). There are billions of people with far less - who don't turn to terrorism.

    Not to mention that prior to 1967 they were perpetrating terrorism not against the Egyptian and Trans/Jordanian "occupiers", but against Israel. Not because they had "nothing" but because their stated purpose then, as now, was to destroy Israel - something they can't achieve peacefully.

    Contemplate that many Arabs in eastern Jerusalem have enough to lose that they'd rather leave their homes and move elsewhere in Israel than see their neighborhoods become part of Arab Palestine.

    To get to the crux of the matter, one suicide bomber was a female law student, another was a young mother. two more were the children of millionaires.

    That you went to the argument that terrorism results from "poverty" or "destitution" (even if framing it as "nothing to lose") reveals that you are not very well read on this subject and speak out of ignorance and your own biased notions (or as you called them, "perceptions").
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    Apr 19, 2011 9:32 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidChristian73> I've read several books on the subject and they do not conform to your views on the matter. I can discuss most subjects intelligently

    Then discuss it intelligently rather than whining that I quoted a source or posted a supportive link.
    Which authors have you read?
    What did they say that pertains to our discussion?


    I'm sure you can't quote me and have again lowered yourself, this time to arguing against straw men.

    C73> I needn't quote you on anything. This forum is rife with your relentlessly anti-Palestinian threads.

    This is your idea of "intelligent discussion"?
    If what you say is true, you should be able to come up with 3 examples in about 3 seconds.


    Was it the lack of Egyptian empathy which precluded them from making peace with Israel prior to the late 1970s?

    C73> we are not discussing Egypt in the 1970s

    We are discussing making peace, and looking at other regional instances puts your thesis to the test.
    A test that your notion fails.


    Israel was willing to establish a Palestinian Arab state on 97% of the disputed territories, including the Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem (with some shared mechanism over the Temple Mount), including the so-called "right of return" to the nascent Arab state and $30 Billion in assistance to the refugees and their descendents.

    Arafat rejected this without as much as making a counter-offer.


    C73> Arafat has been dead for more than 6 years.

    Again that misses the point (not to mention that his legacy continues while people like pouncer pine his death).
    It was not "empathy" (certainly not on Israel's part) that was missing at Camp David or Taba.
    Or since (e.g. the Olmert Plan - or is 2 years ago also "history"?).

    Lack of Israeli empathy for the Palestinian Arabs is not an obstacle (let alone the obstacle) to peace.


    C73> If you want to keep arguing history

    We weren't arguing history, just testing what you selectively say about the present against the very recent past.
    The very past that has produced the present situation.
    But this is you avoiding talking about the present:

    Today even Abbas refuses to acknowledge that Israel is a Jewish state (let alone should remain such).
    If empathy is an ingredient of peacemaking, then you have put the shoe on the wrong foot.

    Benny Morris:
    The shift in Zionist ideology from an ideologically pristine demand for all of Palestine to a sober acceptance of partition was not paralleled in the development of the Palestinian national movement. This asymmetry has underpinned the conflict since the 1930s.

    Yalla, Peace!
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1285693

    C73> ?

    To emphasize, "since the 1930s" isn't just history, it includes the present.


    C73> What is relevant is that people with nothing, have nothing to lose. That's why the Palestinians engage in terrorism and why despite their vastly superior (and American-funded) firepower, Israel continues to suffer from these horrible attacks.

    Bunk. There is no one who has "nothing to lose". People in these territories are generally better off than their neighbors in Arab countries (even if that's not saying much). There are billions of people with far less - who don't turn to terrorism.

    Not to mention that prior to 1967 they were perpetrating terrorism not against the Egyptian and Trans/Jordanian "occupiers", but against Israel. Not because they had "nothing" but because their stated purpose then, as now, was to destroy Israel - something they can't achieve peacefully.

    Contemplate that many Arabs in eastern Jerusalem have enough to lose that they'd rather leave their homes and move elsewhere in Israel than see their neighborhoods become part of Arab Palestine.

    To get to the crux of the matter, one suicide bomber was a female law student, another was a young mother. two more were the children of millionaires.

    That you went to the argument that terrorism results from "poverty" or "destitution" (even if framing it as "nothing to lose") reveals that you are not very well read on this subject and speak out of ignorance and your own biased notions (or as you called them, "perceptions").


    I'm sure you think you're winning this "debate", but all you're doing is proving what I initially said about you. Good luck with your attempts to win others over to your extreme Zionist views.
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    Apr 19, 2011 10:31 PM GMT
    Again, this is your idea of "intelligent discussion"?

    What "extreme Zionist views"?

    You won't be able to answer that, just as you can't actually address what I did say.
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    Apr 19, 2011 10:46 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidAgain, this is your idea of "intelligent discussion"?

    What "extreme Zionist views"?

    You won't be able to answer that, just as you can't actually address what I did say.


    Extremists do not see their views at extreme. That's why they are extremists.