Starting something

  • mcwclewis

    Posts: 1701

    Apr 04, 2008 4:27 AM GMT
    I know this may be an underappreciated topic, but what the hell.

    1) Listen; Im drunk, dont expect too much, spelling wise at least.

    2) I want to understand something, and I cant.

    What the hell. Gay men segregate themselves worse than any other group in history. There are tops, bottoms, fems, masculine, gay, g0y, etc. et.c et.c etc. Douchebag this, douche bag that.

    I think that, for one thing, shut the hell up. For another, shut the hell up.

    In all honesty though, I just dont get it. People make a big deal of Pride and whatnot... why? Im not proud of being gay. I dont view it as an issue of pride or shame. I view it as just another aspect of existence. While Im on the topic of pride... 2a) What is with pride parades? You want to have a parade to promote equality, yet there is so much fetishist, sexual BS in these parades that nobody can take them serieously. There arent straight pride parades with BS fetishes... so why?

    Listen, I understand that gay pride is about fighting against the years of oppression we've endured. I understand completely, but if we want people to take us seriously, this isnt the way to do it.

    The rainbow has gained a stigma, and the pink triangle was given to us by the nazis... lets come up with something meaningful. The rainbow was meant to mean worldwide acceptance to beging with... it actually had nothing to do with homosexuality, it was about racism.

    Gaity has become a conformist, consumer demographic. Why? Hell if I know. Apparently we have good taste, and good jobs. Instert tanget #1.



    Tangent #1)I heard a radio show that had some douchebag joke about how gays have great jobs and good money, always. It was like a 5 minute long joke about a gay clown trying to influence kids to be gay. Ive never been so offended in my life. If it were that easy, the suicide rate among gay men would be nearly nonexistent. Nobody chooses this life, they are given it. The oppression that ensues can do one of two things. It can either lead a person into a complete and total despair, allowing them to complete nothing but the simplest of tasks in life, or it forces them to try harder. Those who rise above the oppression and try to prove the forces of idiocy wrong are the ones who make it.

    Anyways. Im really sick of the stigmas associated with homosexuality. The worst part is, tangent #2

    Tangent #2) Gay men often have self esteem issues. I dont know why, but they do. A lot of gay men choose not to continue on their own, normal human lives upon coming out, but instead choose to infuse stereotypes into their existence, in order to at least fit into one crowd. That is pointless. The only reason we have not gained the respect we deserve is because of that very reason. GAY MEN DO NOT ACCEPT EACH OTHER! Any given human being would have a better chance of being accepted in Nazi Germany than in a community of gay men. Insert Tanget 2a.

    2a) Gay men are the most discrimanatory group of human beings in history. There are so many categories that a gay man has to become in order to be accepted that existence becomes entirely devoted to it. There is so much concern about being homosexual that people forget to even be human. insert tangent 2b)

    2b) My name is Chris Lewis. I came out at the age of 15. Ive always been told Im an old soul, because I grasped certain philosophical concepts much earlier than my peers. I am me. I dress how I feel like dressing, I work out for nobodies gain but mine, I enlighten myself for nobodies gain but mine, I am ME. I am my own person. I am not a stereotype. I am not a demographic. I am not a statistic. I am not a fucking number. I am me. ME!

    Point being: If you really want to be taken seriously in this world, you need to make a god damned point. Pride parades are nothing but promotions for stereotyping. Stop concerning yourself with whether or not you can find a boyfriend. Stop concerning yourself with the latest fashion trend. Stop concerning yourself with bullshit problems like "Who likes me?" "Am I cool?" "Am I trendy?" Start worrying about things that matter. Insert tangent #3

    3) Nothing in this God damned world will mean a fart to the wind if we dont take care of our planet. Gay rights mean NOTHING compared to the survival of our planet. If the race dies... we're certainly not going to mean anything. If our planet survives, then we can worry about our petty, circumsantial lives. Insert tangent #3a

    3a) No religion can save you from Dying Earth. Dying Earth is the largest sin a man can make. No matter your religion... you need to understand that your maker made this planet. Trashing it is much worse than taking a life, because a dead Earth means a dead billion. Fuck abortion, because the chemicals leaked by corporations, and government officials cause more deaths on a daily basis than one persons sperm could dream of producing. Consider the damage of one person's possible production rate versus the cancer and plague cause by
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 04, 2008 4:51 AM GMT
    i still dont understand what gOy and gEy are....and i did not attempt to read what they mean because its useless to me....
  • ShawnTX

    Posts: 2484

    Apr 04, 2008 4:53 AM GMT
    Believe me, you're not missing anything...useless is one word I'd use.
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    Apr 04, 2008 4:54 AM GMT
    ShawnTO saidBelieve me, you're not missing anything...useless is one word I'd use.



    irony!!! there is USE in USELESS....get it get it? i will go put a paper bag over my head nowicon_redface.gif
  • ShawnTX

    Posts: 2484

    Apr 04, 2008 5:05 AM GMT
    Moudi said[quote][cite]ShawnTO said[/cite]Believe me, you're not missing anything...useless is one word I'd use.



    irony!!! there is USE in USELESS....get it get it? i will go put a paper bag over my head nowicon_redface.gif[/quote]

    Ummm...I really don't get it. Why don't you be a dear and get ready for your jello match. There's a good boy.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 04, 2008 5:06 AM GMT
    ShawnTO said[quote][cite]Moudi said[/cite][quote][cite]ShawnTO said[/cite]Believe me, you're not missing anything...useless is one word I'd use.



    irony!!! there is USE in USELESS....get it get it? i will go put a paper bag over my head nowicon_redface.gif[/quote]

    Ummm...I really don't get it. Why don't you be a dear and get ready for your jello match. There's a good boy.[/quote]

    okay icon_redface.gif will u dress me up to the event?
  • ShawnTX

    Posts: 2484

    Apr 04, 2008 5:12 AM GMT
    Sure...here's a string.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 04, 2008 5:18 AM GMT
    ShawnTO saidSure...here's a string.


    lol...can it at least be a thong icon_sad.gif i mean a string is nice an all, but a thong is more manly
  • ShawnTX

    Posts: 2484

    Apr 04, 2008 5:33 AM GMT
    That's WAY too much clothing for a jello match.
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    Apr 04, 2008 9:58 AM GMT
    /me takes a front row seat and a bag of popcorn. icon_cool.gif

    psst... mcwclewis... here gotcha coffee. icon_biggrin.gif Feeling better now? I actually agree with a lot of what you said. There's nothing I can do about it though, except just leave them be and try to live in a way that I disprove the stigma. icon_sad.gif
  • redheaded_dud...

    Posts: 408

    Apr 04, 2008 10:03 AM GMT

    You wanna be starting something, huh?


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    Apr 04, 2008 10:19 AM GMT
    I am surprised at how many jokes followed such a serious post. I hear what you are saying Lewis and resonate with a lot of it. My suspicion is that there are a lot of gay guys who feel the way you do and just blend in with the crowd, hence we don’t have proper statistics. They are afraid to be associated with the loud part of our 'community'. I think the pendulum is about to turn though for the better.
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    Apr 04, 2008 12:46 PM GMT
    original714 saidI am surprised at how many jokes followed such a serious post. I hear what you are saying Lewis and resonate with a lot of it. My suspicion is that there are a lot of gay guys who feel the way you do and just blend in with the crowd, hence we don’t have proper statistics. They are afraid to be associated with the loud part of our 'community'. I think the pendulum is about to turn though for the better.


    He admitted he was drunk. icon_razz.gif

    mcwclewisPoint being: If you really want to be taken seriously in this world, you need to make a god damned point. Pride parades are nothing but promotions for stereotyping. Stop concerning yourself with whether or not you can find a boyfriend. Stop concerning yourself with the latest fashion trend. Stop concerning yourself with bullshit problems like "Who likes me?" "Am I cool?" "Am I trendy?" Start worrying about things that matter.


    I like this a lot. But look around you, I really think things are starting to change. Previously, back when we were actively being persecuted, we had to stand up in the loudest most obnoxious way possible for people to take notice - hence the "we're here and queer, get used to it" slogan I guess.

    Now that we're already starting to get accepted by hetero society, a lot more have started doing the things that really matter and merging more with the everyone else (I mean, as in respecting boundaries where straights get uncomfortable).

    Not exactly shunning the gay mainstream, as being effeminate and transsexuality isn't exactly something you choose either.

    Gay pride parades are fun, but already starting to drift back as an obsolete method of gaining tolerance. Nothing wrong with it, but I've spoken to straight people who compare it to 'shoving our sexuality down their throats'.

    mcwclewisGay men often have self esteem issues. I dont know why, but they do. A lot of gay men choose not to continue on their own, normal human lives upon coming out, but instead choose to infuse stereotypes into their existence, in order to at least fit into one crowd. That is pointless. The only reason we have not gained the respect we deserve is because of that very reason. GAY MEN DO NOT ACCEPT EACH OTHER!


    I blame this on our circumstances growing up. icon_sad.gif Most of us haven't really had a chirpy childhood and teens. The hiding and suppression of our sexuality has to explode out somewhere.

    Plus the contempt by which society views us rubs off on us. We begin to blame the more flamboyant gays for supposedly being the reason why we are made fun of, forced to hide, ostracized, etc. It's why you get splinter groups like the g0ys or androphiles or whatever.

    Personally, I don't blame them, and I wouldn't put a stop to Prides, I'll just do my best to prove my own worth not solely as a gay man but as a human being.

    P.S. RJ has a word limit for posts. I suggest making longer posts on wordpad or a separate app, then copy-pasting it. I've lost posts before when i couldn't retrieve postdata.
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    Apr 04, 2008 1:14 PM GMT
    KissingProPeople don't want their "pride" to be challenged. It's PC to scream and shout as loudly as you can can about being proud, but have a thoughtful intelligent conversation about heavy stuff and people run away.


    Who's saying that?

    I joined RJ in January, and like a lot of other guys here, have seen the same questions being debated on over and over, sometimes they just pass it over or joke about it (like the androphilia thread which started unfortunately after a some heated stuff about transsexuality and effeminate gay men). It doesn't mean they don't care about such issues. If you go back down the list of threads here, you'll find threads with hundreds of replies on it where questions like this have resulted in flame wars. icon_confused.gif



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    Apr 04, 2008 1:27 PM GMT
    Sedative,

    I think KissingPro is still a little sore his Internalized Homophobia thread went over like a lead balloon.

    mcwclewisWhat is with pride parades? You want to have a parade to promote equality, yet there is so much fetishist, sexual BS in these parades that nobody can take them serieously. There arent straight pride parades with BS fetishes... so why?


    If people weren't so damn uptight about what other people's sex lives we wouldn't be marginalized to begin with. Pride is not all about promoting equality, it is a celebration of life and who we are, all 30,000 flavors of queer whether they be lesbians, drag bunnies, or homos who get their panties in a twist because, god forbid, someone might enjoy a good spanking every now and again.

    It is absurd to complain that we segregate ourselves and than turn your nose up at pride because it doesn't match your vision of a singular queer community.

    But you are drunk, so I forgive you my child.
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    Apr 04, 2008 1:49 PM GMT
    Mcwclewis I will try and respond to your concerns in a few sentences.

    1. Gay pride is a reaction to being a despised and ignored minority for thousands of years. Matter of fact the concept of homosexuality was not even discussed academically until the 19th century, even though the practice has been around since the beginning of time. I think people take the word "pride" the wrong way. Straights and some gays think that it is nonsensical to be proud of something you have no control over. Gay pride to myself and others I know is accepting your sexuality despite tremendous barriers and opposition.

    2. Gays do have self-esteem issues, but I think they are not as bad as they could be considering what some gay people put up with. Rejection by the community, family and friends is still common. You need to also keep in mind that a lot of straight people have self-esteem issues despite fitting in.

    3. I agree with your rant about goy, gey and other categories gay men put themselves in.

    4. I also agree with your concerns about the planet. But that is a horribly complicated issue that gays will only have minimal impact on (I read an article last night on China's thirst for raw materials that would make your hair curl).

    Hope your hangover is not too bad today.
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    Apr 04, 2008 1:59 PM GMT
    I know you were drunk and angry when you wrote your thread but I've heard various versions of your argument since I came out at 19 and joined the gay club. I was very disappointed when I came out because I thought it would be all peace and love and everyone would accept me and it would be one big happy family. The world bitch slapped me back.

    The problem is that we are a conformist society and every one is affected by it. People don't want to stand out and be different. We want to be accepted so we adopt the mannerisms, clothing, language, and everything else about a specific group. However, it's not just gay people who do this.

    There are very few positive images of gay people in the media and popular culture. Media and popular culture are controlled by the dominant society. Prejudice and ignorance cause people to look at one image of gay people and assign negative characteristics to the entire group.

    Yes, there are Pride parades that feature every subculture. However, no one looks at Mardi Gras or "Girls Gone Wild" and assumes that all white women like to show their tits. Straight white people do the same things gay people do. Straight white people don leather. They have group sex. They cheat on their partners. They have anal sex. They pay for sex. They pee on each other. They like porn. They take drugs and drink too much. They conform.

    Look at Elliot Spitzer. No one looks at him and assumes that all straight white men spend thousands of dollars on prostitutes. Some do, but society doesn't make the sweeping generalizations about straight white men the way they would about gay people. The story would have been portrayed very differently if he had been spending money on men instead of women.

    Just watch the news for a few weeks and pay attention to how any minority is portrayed.

    One final item and I'll quit. Harvey Fierstein updated an old movie, A Catered Affair, and turned it into a Broadway musical. He turned an alcoholic bachelor uncle from the movie into a gay uncle in a relationship. Charles McNulty, of the Los Angeles Times (among others), criticized Fierstein for playing Uncle Winston as a contemporary gay man. It's strange that in 2008 someone would still get criticized for having a gay character in a relationship just because the play is set in the '50s. Fiestein said, in an interview:

    This show, this story allowed me to say, “Here's a gay character from the past who lives through the craziness and finds the courage to go and have a relationship.”

    You can't change everyone's minds, but you do have influence over the people around you. I talk about my life with straight friends and co-workers. I talk about my relationships and my struggles with dating. I listen to their struggles as well and we find we have a lot of common ground.
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    Apr 04, 2008 2:02 PM GMT
    KissingPro said

    It's interesting ( but not surprising) that the beginning of your post was about me, rather than the subject matter. It's easier to deal with the question if you comment on the messenger, rather than the message.


    As indicated in my post, I was responding to Sedative's confusion, not you or your message.
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    Apr 04, 2008 2:09 PM GMT
    MunchingZombie said

    It is absurd to complain that we segregate ourselves and than turn your nose up at pride because it doesn't match your vision of a singular queer community.

    But you are drunk, so I forgive you my child.


    Well said MZ!

    mcwlewis said
    2b) My name is Chris Lewis. I came out at the age of 15. Ive always been told Im an old soul, because I grasped certain philosophical concepts much earlier than my peers. I am me. I dress how I feel like dressing, I work out for nobodies gain but mine, I enlighten myself for nobodies gain but mine, I am ME. I am my own person. I am not a stereotype. I am not a demographic. I am not a statistic. I am not a fucking number. I am me. ME!


    Chris, the above is a very wise observation. Why doesn't this apply to everyone else? Why do others have to define who they are against your definitions? Others might define you as a stereotypical gay who needs to be accepted by the straight community and lives his life accordingly. You seem like a nice guy but not very different than other gay men on this site.

    Each person has their own unique identity though they may share some stereotypical attributes. People don't normally try to be stereotypical, they just are because it is who they are. Stereotypes exist because of the reality that certain segments of the population share common traits as a result of common elements in their environment, culture, political and/or religious affiliations, etc..

    So who is to say what is the appropriate way to conduct ourselves in public? Obviously you are the best person to dictate what is appropriate for you, so let others have the same freedom. If we can't be tolerant of each other, why should the straight community be tolerant of us?

    I'm guessing the alcohol got the better of you because there are a lot of contradictions in your post. I would be happy to continue the conversation with you via email if you prefer since there is a lot that you cover in your post.

    There is another thread which discusses what Stonewall is and how the pride parades began if you are interested:

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/106918/
  • mcwclewis

    Posts: 1701

    Apr 04, 2008 7:13 PM GMT
    I actually made it to 5 points... damn word limitations.



    "Chris, the above is a very wise observation. Why doesn't this apply to everyone else? Why do others have to define who they are against your definitions? Others might define you as a stereotypical gay who needs to be accepted by the straight community and lives his life accordingly. You seem like a nice guy but not very different than other gay men on this site"


    Hmm. I really meant to just be using myself as an example. I was trying to point out that everyone is there own person.

    "It is absurd to complain that we segregate ourselves and than turn your nose up at pride because it doesn't match your vision of a singular queer community."

    I dont turn my nose up at pride in general, I just think its done in a counterproductive manner. People have the right to do whatever they want. Im just saying that if someone engages in those types of behavoir in public, and claim they are doing good for the community, they're wrong. If they're doing it to have fun and express themselves, then so be it.



    PS: The hangover was hell, but it got me out of work early, so Im not complaining.
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    Mar 13, 2009 8:54 PM GMT
    G0y isn't a subgroup of gay.




    Homosexual=sexual orientation. From the homosexual splits of two separate identities, g0y and gay. Both defined by differing behavior patterns. (Note that there is a difference between innate sexual orientation and outward behavior)

    This is so because donning the label gay has it's own implications beyond simply being same sex attracted and donning the label g0y has it's own, practically antithesis, implications beyond being same sex attracted.