The Big Lie: Torture got bin Laden

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    May 03, 2011 9:45 PM GMT
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/world/asia/03intel.html

    Andrew Sullivan sums it up rather nicely on his blog:

    http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/05/the-republican-spin.htmlOld-fashioned, painstaking, labor-intensive intelligence work. The American way. We never needed to stoop to bin Laden's standards to get bin Laden. We needed merely to follow our long-tested humane procedures.
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    May 04, 2011 1:19 AM GMT
    I heard Brian Williams interviewing the outgoing CIA Director and he made it sound like he was specifically asking questions to point out fhe 'value' of enhanced interigations. This shit is sick !! SICK !!! What's come of our media that they cheer a government for breaking our own laws, that kind of thing can easily come back on a society who applauds it when done to "THEM" or the "ENEMY".

    We should never allow our government to do things in our name to anyone, that we don't want done to ourselves, because history repeats itself and there's plenty of examples where this kind of thing came back to bite its citizens.
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    May 04, 2011 1:24 AM GMT
    It's a disgusting and reprehensible effort to justify actions that were illegal and immoral.

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    May 04, 2011 1:34 AM GMT
    Regarding the OP post:
    1) NY Times refers to CIA prisons in E. Europe playing a role
    2) Blog refers to Rumsfeld denying harsh interrogations played a role. Rumsfeld was on Hannity today and stated he was misquoted and that such interrogations definitely played a role.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    First strands on Bin Laden gathered in CIA prison

    (AP) – 2 May 2011

    WASHINGTON (AP) — Officials say CIA interrogators in secret overseas prisons developed the first strands of information that ultimately led to the killing of Osama bin Laden.

    Current and former U.S. officials say that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, provided the nom de guerre of one of bin Laden's most trusted aides. The CIA got similar information from Mohammed's successor, Abu Faraj al-Libi. Both were subjected to harsh interrogation tactics inside CIA prisons in Poland and Romania.

    The news is sure to reignite debate over whether the now-closed interrogation and detention program was successful. Former president George W. Bush authorized the CIA to use the harshest interrogation tactics in U.S. history. President Barack Obama closed the prison system.

    Copyright © 2011 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=13512344

    http://www.startribune.com/nation/121112979.html

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/42871400/print/1/displaymode/1098

    http://dailycaller.com/2011/05/03/torturous-evasions/
    CIA Director Leon Panetta admitted to Brian Williams on Tuesday night’s broadcast of NBC Nightly News that waterboarding detainees contributed information that was ultimately used to locate Osama bin Laden. Panetta, however, said that “whether we would have gotten the same information through other approaches I think is always going to be an open question.”

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailycaller/20110502/pl_dailycaller/didenhancedinterrogationleadustoosamabinladen

    http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2011/05/02/report_harsh_interrogation_techniques_helped_nail_bin_laden

    http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/05/bushs-gitmo-interogations-led-to-the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden.html

    http://www.thenewstrend.com/2011/05/bin-laden-kill-may-reopen-cia-interrogation-debate-reuters.html
  • creature

    Posts: 5197

    May 04, 2011 3:19 AM GMT
    It's beyond me how people who support the "spread of democracy" to get the "barbaric" and "uncivilized" people of the middle east to model their government after ours, which prohibits cruel and unusual punishment, are behind waterboarding. If it's not acceptable here in the United States, why should we engage in it elsewhere?

    Our activities abroad should be reflective of the ideology we allegedly support on U.S. soil.
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    May 04, 2011 3:37 AM GMT
    creature saidIt's beyond me how people who support the "spread of democracy" to get the "barbaric" and "uncivilized" people of the middle east to model their government after ours, which prohibits cruel and unusual punishment, are behind waterboarding. If it's not acceptable here in the United States, why should we engage in it elsewhere?

    Our activities abroad should be reflective of the ideology we allegedly support on U.S. soil.


    ___________________________________________________

    I sure agree with you here, but for some reason torture apologists completely miss the need to be consistent rather than hypocritical, the US lost a hell of a lot of credibility as an example of Democracy with all that went down in Iraq and this farcical "war on terror". Our hypocricy to the world is as obvious as that of the Israeli's promoting their 'democratic credentials' in that they openly allow gay rights and marriage, all the while running Palestinians out of their homes so Zionist Settlers can move in on their lands, once the Palestinians homes are destroyed and new Settlements go up, probably assisted by US AID..
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    May 04, 2011 4:05 AM GMT
    socalfitness saidRegarding the OP post:
    1) NY Times refers to CIA prisons in E. Europe playing a role
    2) Blog refers to Rumsfeld denying harsh interrogations played a role. Rumsfeld was on Hannity today and stated he was misquoted and that such interrogations definitely played a role.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    First strands on Bin Laden gathered in CIA prison

    (AP) – 2 May 2011

    WASHINGTON (AP) — Officials say CIA interrogators in secret overseas prisons developed the first strands of information that ultimately led to the killing of Osama bin Laden.

    Current and former U.S. officials say that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, provided the nom de guerre of one of bin Laden's most trusted aides. The CIA got similar information from Mohammed's successor, Abu Faraj al-Libi. Both were subjected to harsh interrogation tactics inside CIA prisons in Poland and Romania.

    The news is sure to reignite debate over whether the now-closed interrogation and detention program was successful. Former president George W. Bush authorized the CIA to use the harshest interrogation tactics in U.S. history. President Barack Obama closed the prison system.

    Copyright © 2011 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=13512344

    http://www.startribune.com/nation/121112979.html

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/42871400/print/1/displaymode/1098

    http://dailycaller.com/2011/05/03/torturous-evasions/
    CIA Director Leon Panetta admitted to Brian Williams on Tuesday night’s broadcast of NBC Nightly News that waterboarding detainees contributed information that was ultimately used to locate Osama bin Laden. Panetta, however, said that “whether we would have gotten the same information through other approaches I think is always going to be an open question.”

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailycaller/20110502/pl_dailycaller/didenhancedinterrogationleadustoosamabinladen

    http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2011/05/02/report_harsh_interrogation_techniques_helped_nail_bin_laden

    http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2011/05/bushs-gitmo-interogations-led-to-the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden.html

    http://www.thenewstrend.com/2011/05/bin-laden-kill-may-reopen-cia-interrogation-debate-reuters.html


    Disgusting. If waterboarding worked so well, why did BushCo drop the ball?
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19138

    May 04, 2011 4:50 AM GMT
    Christian73 said

    Disgusting. If waterboarding worked so well, why did BushCo drop the ball?



    Ugh! These tiresome threads tend to make even some of you who seem relatively intelligent appear like morons. By almost all accounts, the capture of Bin Laden has been credited to years and years of painstaking work through 3 administrations -- Clinton, Bush, and Obama -- and an increasingly effective and skilled military. Everyone in every administration who worked towards Bin Laden's capture, and especially those who died trying, deserve some credit. It's not really fair to politicize something like this that has cost so many lives and taken so many years and dollars. If waterboarding in some way led us to Bin Laden, well, so be it. The guy being waterboarded probably wouldn't be nearly as humane --- he would just saw off your head.
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    May 04, 2011 5:13 AM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    Christian73 said

    Disgusting. If waterboarding worked so well, why did BushCo drop the ball?



    Ugh! These tiresome threads tend to make even some of you who seem relatively intelligent appear like morons. By almost all accounts, the capture of Bin Laden has been credited to years and years of painstaking work through 3 administrations -- Clinton, Bush, and Obama -- and an increasingly effective and skilled military. Everyone in every administration who worked towards Bin Laden's capture, and especially those who died trying, deserve some credit. It's not really fair to politicize something like this that has cost so many lives and taken so many years and dollars. If waterboarding in some way led us to Bin Laden, well, so be it. The guy being waterboarded probably wouldn't be nearly as humane --- he would just saw off your head.





    TOTAL BS.
    Even Rumsfeld has admitted that the bin Laden courier was NOT waterboarded.
    http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/rumsfeld_claims_no_waterboarding_used_to_obtain_bin_laden_intel_20110519/?ln

    YES, Bush TRIED to get bin Laden (even though as we all know Bush said "I am truly not that concerned about" bin Laden).
    But Bush FAILED to get bin Laden.
    (Maybe because he wasn't that "concerned")
    Good intentions + shitty results = shitty results.

    Obama tried to get bin Laden and SUCCEEDED.
    Good intention + great results = GREAT RESULTS
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19138

    May 04, 2011 5:19 AM GMT
    rickrick91 said
    CuriousJockAZ said
    Christian73 said

    Disgusting. If waterboarding worked so well, why did BushCo drop the ball?



    Ugh! These tiresome threads tend to make even some of you who seem relatively intelligent appear like morons. By almost all accounts, the capture of Bin Laden has been credited to years and years of painstaking work through 3 administrations -- Clinton, Bush, and Obama -- and an increasingly effective and skilled military. Everyone in every administration who worked towards Bin Laden's capture, and especially those who died trying, deserve some credit. It's not really fair to politicize something like this that has cost so many lives and taken so many years and dollars. If waterboarding in some way led us to Bin Laden, well, so be it. The guy being waterboarded probably wouldn't be nearly as humane --- he would just saw off your head.





    TOTAL BS.
    Even Rumsfeld has admitted that the bin Laden courier was NOT waterboarded.
    http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/rumsfeld_claims_no_waterboarding_used_to_obtain_bin_laden_intel_20110519/?ln

    YES, Bush TRIED to get bin Laden (even though as we all know Bush said "I am truly not that concerned about" bin Laden).
    But Bush FAILED to get bin Laden.
    (Maybe because he wasn't that "concerned")
    Good intentions + shitty results = shitty results.

    Obama tried to get bin Laden and SUCCEEDED.
    Good intention + great results = GREAT RESULTS






    Your typically partisan and ohhhhhh sooooooo predictable post deserves nothing more than a great big...

    Y A W N
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    May 04, 2011 5:22 AM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    rickrick91 said
    CuriousJockAZ said
    Christian73 said

    Disgusting. If waterboarding worked so well, why did BushCo drop the ball?



    Ugh! These tiresome threads tend to make even some of you who seem relatively intelligent appear like morons. By almost all accounts, the capture of Bin Laden has been credited to years and years of painstaking work through 3 administrations -- Clinton, Bush, and Obama -- and an increasingly effective and skilled military. Everyone in every administration who worked towards Bin Laden's capture, and especially those who died trying, deserve some credit. It's not really fair to politicize something like this that has cost so many lives and taken so many years and dollars. If waterboarding in some way led us to Bin Laden, well, so be it. The guy being waterboarded probably wouldn't be nearly as humane --- he would just saw off your head.





    TOTAL BS.
    Even Rumsfeld has admitted that the bin Laden courier was NOT waterboarded.
    http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/rumsfeld_claims_no_waterboarding_used_to_obtain_bin_laden_intel_20110519/?ln

    YES, Bush TRIED to get bin Laden (even though as we all know Bush said "I am truly not that concerned about" bin Laden).
    But Bush FAILED to get bin Laden.
    (Maybe because he wasn't that "concerned")
    Good intentions + shitty results = shitty results.

    Obama tried to get bin Laden and SUCCEEDED.
    Good intention + great results = GREAT RESULTS






    Your typically partisan and ohhhhhh sooooooo predictable post deserves nothing more than a great big...

    Y A W N




    Your contempt for FACTS and the TRUTH - and your preference for bogus right-wing BS - is "ohhhhhh sooooooo predictable".
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    May 04, 2011 5:23 AM GMT
    rickrick91 said
    CuriousJockAZ said
    Christian73 said

    Disgusting. If waterboarding worked so well, why did BushCo drop the ball?



    Ugh! These tiresome threads tend to make even some of you who seem relatively intelligent appear like morons. By almost all accounts, the capture of Bin Laden has been credited to years and years of painstaking work through 3 administrations -- Clinton, Bush, and Obama -- and an increasingly effective and skilled military. Everyone in every administration who worked towards Bin Laden's capture, and especially those who died trying, deserve some credit. It's not really fair to politicize something like this that has cost so many lives and taken so many years and dollars. If waterboarding in some way led us to Bin Laden, well, so be it. The guy being waterboarded probably wouldn't be nearly as humane --- he would just saw off your head.





    TOTAL BS.
    Even Rumsfeld has admitted that the bin Laden courier was NOT waterboarded.
    http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/rumsfeld_claims_no_waterboarding_used_to_obtain_bin_laden_intel_20110519/?ln

    YES, Bush TRIED to get bin Laden (even though as we all know Bush said "I am truly not that concerned about" bin Laden).
    But Bush FAILED to get bin Laden.
    (Maybe because he wasn't that "concerned")
    Good intentions + shitty results = shitty results.

    Obama tried to get bin Laden and SUCCEEDED.
    Good intention + great results = GREAT RESULTS

    Rumsfeld stated on Hannity he was misquoted and enhanced interrogations were involved. Even current CIA head Leon Panetta stated it was used. If you read the sources I provided, the evidence is clear.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19138

    May 04, 2011 5:27 AM GMT
    SoCal, RickRick doesn't read resources unless they come directly from MSNBC -- surely you know that by now.
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    May 04, 2011 5:29 AM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ saidSoCal, RickRick doesn't read resources unless they come directly from MSNBC -- surely you know that by now.
    It is so clear in this case, so obvious, that it would be interesting to see if he retracted his statement in an attempt to gain at least a tiny amount of credibility. But I really don't think he has the capacity to do so.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19138

    May 04, 2011 5:34 AM GMT
    socalfitness said
    CuriousJockAZ saidSoCal, RickRick doesn't read resources unless they come directly from MSNBC -- surely you know that by now.
    It is so clear in this case, so obvious, that it would be interesting to see if he retracted his statement in an attempt to gain at least a tiny amount of credibility. But I really don't think he has the capacity to do so.



    His credibility went out the window here at RJ sometime in 2008 icon_lol.gif Now he's just a bunch of hot air spewing partisan pipe dreams painted as "facts".
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    May 04, 2011 5:44 AM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    socalfitness said
    CuriousJockAZ saidSoCal, RickRick doesn't read resources unless they come directly from MSNBC -- surely you know that by now.
    It is so clear in this case, so obvious, that it would be interesting to see if he retracted his statement in an attempt to gain at least a tiny amount of credibility. But I really don't think he has the capacity to do so.


    His credibility went out the window here at RJ sometime in 2008 icon_lol.gif Now he's just a bunch of hot air spewing partisan pipe dreams painted as "facts".

    You are right, of course, but I just wanted to throw him a bone to see if he could follow the truth for once. But from his response in the other thread, he has clearly labeled himself as spewing nothing but BS. And he's not smart at all. Someone smarter would provide false information only when the facts were in doubt. Notice how there are two threads both with false titles. These guys complain about another RJ member who posts threads with provocative titles, but at least that member is honest. These guys are not, plain and simple.
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    May 04, 2011 5:45 AM GMT
    socalfitness said
    CuriousJockAZ saidSoCal, RickRick doesn't read resources unless they come directly from MSNBC -- surely you know that by now.
    It is so clear in this case, so obvious, that it would be interesting to see if he retracted his statement in an attempt to gain at least a tiny amount of credibility. But I really don't think he has the capacity to do so.




    LOL!
    What's clear is that the real name and the whereabouts of the courier were not learned until AFTER waterboarding was discontinued in 2007.
    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/05/surveillance-not-waterboarding-led-to-bin-laden/
    Unless new info comes to light, what we know now is that waterboarding did NOT get the crucial info needed to track down bin Laden.

    You guys nees to listen to a wider scope of information than the right-wing BS on Fox.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19138

    May 04, 2011 5:47 AM GMT
    rickrick91 said
    You guys nees to listen to a wider scope of information than the right-wing BS on Fox.



    You need to grow a brain so your mind can be opened to more than your fantasy rants. I hardly watch Fox at all. Watching NIGHTLINE on ABC right now. Perhaps you should turn that on and learn something....but don't take anything on ABC as the gospel either.
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    May 04, 2011 6:04 AM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    rickrick91 said
    You guys nees to listen to a wider scope of information than the right-wing BS on Fox.



    You need to grow a brain so your mind can be opened to more than your fantasy rants. I hardly watch Fox at all. Watching NIGHTLINE on ABC right now. Perhaps you should turn that on and learn something....but don't take anything on ABC as the gospel either.




    How about CBS?
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20059438-503544.html
    Same facts reported there.
    The crucial intel on the courier wasn't gathered until AFTER waterboarding was discontinued.

    "grow a brain"?
    LOL!
    I keep hoping that you will GROW UP and stop the childish pointless and pathetic personal attacks - but apparently, you just won't or can't learn to behave like an adult.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19138

    May 04, 2011 6:18 AM GMT
    rickrick91 said
    CuriousJockAZ said
    rickrick91 said
    You guys nees to listen to a wider scope of information than the right-wing BS on Fox.



    You need to grow a brain so your mind can be opened to more than your fantasy rants. I hardly watch Fox at all. Watching NIGHTLINE on ABC right now. Perhaps you should turn that on and learn something....but don't take anything on ABC as the gospel either.




    How about CBS?
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20059438-503544.html
    Same facts reported there.
    The crucial intel on the courier wasn't gathered until AFTER waterboarding was discontinued.

    I keep hoping that you will GROW UP and stop the childish pointless and pathetic personal attacks - but apparently, you just won't or can't learn to behave like an adult.


    Read some of your own posts -- even in the last 48 hours -- then look up the word "Hypocrite" in the dictionary icon_rolleyes.gif Hold on...I feel another one coming on....YAWN!!!!
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    May 04, 2011 7:05 AM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    rickrick91 said
    CuriousJockAZ said
    rickrick91 said
    You guys nees to listen to a wider scope of information than the right-wing BS on Fox.



    You need to grow a brain so your mind can be opened to more than your fantasy rants. I hardly watch Fox at all. Watching NIGHTLINE on ABC right now. Perhaps you should turn that on and learn something....but don't take anything on ABC as the gospel either.




    How about CBS?
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20059438-503544.html
    Same facts reported there.
    The crucial intel on the courier wasn't gathered until AFTER waterboarding was discontinued.

    I keep hoping that you will GROW UP and stop the childish pointless and pathetic personal attacks - but apparently, you just won't or can't learn to behave like an adult.


    Read some of your own posts -- even in the last 48 hours -- then look up the word "Hypocrite" in the dictionary icon_rolleyes.gif Hold on...I feel another one coming on....YAWN!!!!




    Yup.
    There are a few RJ right-wingers who I do attack back whenever they attack me.
    The thing is - I've given up on them.
    I haven't quite gotten to that point with you yet.
    I keep hoping you'll quit the personal attacks.
    But, if you don't - at some point, your personal attacks and name-calling will be returned.
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    May 04, 2011 8:57 AM GMT
    Socal, other than the right wing and so-called libertarian (if torture can be a libertarian tactic!) sites you quoted, the ABC site states specifically:

    your linkMohammed did not discuss al-Kuwaiti while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He acknowledged knowing him many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic.
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    May 04, 2011 9:02 AM GMT

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/04/us/politics/04torture.htmlBut a closer look at prisoner interrogations suggests that the harsh techniques played a small role at most in identifying Bin Laden’s trusted courier and exposing his hide-out. One detainee who apparently was subjected to some tough treatment provided a crucial description of the courier, according to current and former officials briefed on the interrogations. But two prisoners who underwent some of the harshest treatment — including Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, who was waterboarded 183 times — repeatedly misled their interrogators about the courier’s identity.
    ...
    Glenn L. Carle, a retired C.I.A. officer who oversaw the interrogation of a high-level detainee in 2002, said in a phone interview Tuesday, that coercive techniques “didn’t provide useful, meaningful, trustworthy information.” He said that while some of his colleagues defended the measures, “everyone was deeply concerned and most felt it was un-American and did not work.”
    ...
    “The bottom line is this: If we had some kind of smoking-gun intelligence from waterboarding in 2003, we would have taken out Osama bin Laden in 2003,” said Tommy Vietor, spokesman for the National Security Council. “It took years of collection and analysis from many different sources to develop the case that enabled us to identify this compound, and reach a judgment that Bin Laden was likely to be living there.”
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    May 04, 2011 10:33 AM GMT
    rickrick91 said
    socalfitness said
    CuriousJockAZ saidSoCal, RickRick doesn't read resources unless they come directly from MSNBC -- surely you know that by now.
    It is so clear in this case, so obvious, that it would be interesting to see if he retracted his statement in an attempt to gain at least a tiny amount of credibility. But I really don't think he has the capacity to do so.




    LOL!
    What's clear is that the real name and the whereabouts of the courier were not learned until AFTER waterboarding was discontinued in 2007.
    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/05/surveillance-not-waterboarding-led-to-bin-laden/
    Unless new info comes to light, what we know now is that waterboarding did NOT get the crucial info needed to track down bin Laden.

    You guys nees to listen to a wider scope of information than the right-wing BS on Fox.

    Fail again. Notice I posted 8 links, none of them Fox, so your comment is more of your typical horse manure. And to you and OP, your blog from that guy means nothing. And quoting Mohammed from the abc ("Mohammed did not discuss al-Kuwaiti...") is an example of something that came up in standard interrogation. Did anyone ever say nothing came from standard interrogation? To repeat what I already quoted that both you guys chose to ignore:

    CIA Director Leon Panetta admitted to Brian Williams on Tuesday night’s broadcast of NBC Nightly News that waterboarding detainees contributed information that was ultimately used to locate Osama bin Laden. Panetta, however, said that “whether we would have gotten the same information through other approaches I think is always going to be an open question.”
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    May 04, 2011 10:59 AM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    Christian73 said

    Disgusting. If waterboarding worked so well, why did BushCo drop the ball?



    Ugh! These tiresome threads tend to make even some of you who seem relatively intelligent appear like morons. By almost all accounts, the capture of Bin Laden has been credited to years and years of painstaking work through 3 administrations -- Clinton, Bush, and Obama -- and an increasingly effective and skilled military. Everyone in every administration who worked towards Bin Laden's capture, and especially those who died trying, deserve some credit. It's not really fair to politicize something like this that has cost so many lives and taken so many years and dollars. If waterboarding in some way led us to Bin Laden, well, so be it. The guy being waterboarded probably wouldn't be nearly as humane --- he would just saw off your head.


    So ANY and ALL means are justified, are they? Then what separates US from THEM?