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Guys

I am getting overwhelmed with requests at the second and my ftp server is locked out at the second. As soon as its up I shall add the links on this thread and info

I would also ask all of those that are serious about doing it to join in on this thread as:

having the support of others and sharing ideas on what you eat

helping you on down days when temptation gets too much

and seeing how others are getting on

Is what really helps and makes the difference and it will make it easier to answer you all, also I would say for those of you who are serious you will put a starting piccy up in this thread and show what ya can do for others to follow you

Go on commit

:-)

I'll commit!

This is me... minus the plastic pool intertubes,

I am 6'5", 283 lbs, which is up from 275 (gained muscle) and down from my peak of 310.

The major goals are to trim down, I am not sure to what level, as I get mixed messages everywhere about it.

Lean body mass as of Jan is 200lbs (scary right?)

I have an awesome trainer, but he is around 24/7!

there you go bfg... you've got one person!

cheers epdx you wont be alone I am about to add the plans and then diets and links etc and mail everyone thats messaged me this last week or so which has been quite a few

I have a question for you, and then I may join in.

What's the affordability of the kind of diet you'll be suggesting? I'm following the 1800 calorie plan of this site right now, and I find it very easy to follow because, unlike many diet plans, I can make a lot of cheap substitutes to bring down the price I'm spending on groceries. I am always frustrated by meal suggestions that end up being way outside of my price range (which is not very high, perhaps $40-$50 a week for groceries, which I think is plenty and have been able to stick to on the 1800 calorie plan).

Chewey_Delt saidI have a question for you, and then I may join in.

What's the affordability of the kind of diet you'll be suggesting? I'm following the 1800 calorie plan of this site right now, and I find it very easy to follow because, unlike many diet plans, I can make a lot of cheap substitutes to bring down the price I'm spending on groceries. I am always frustrated by meal suggestions that end up being way outside of my price range (which is not very high, perhaps $40-$50 a week for groceries, which I think is plenty and have been able to stick to on the 1800 calorie plan).

First off dont get me wrong this is not my method, but a method I employ.

Funny enough the diet system Jeff put up is very similar to mine there are 3 main differences:

1) Theres is very prescriptive ie it tells you the specific food where as the system I use tells you the food type ie starchy carbs, non starchy carbs, lean meat, very lean meat etc there is a seperate sheet that defines it with weights and measures etc. The benefit of this is that it empowers you and lets you learn in a way suited to what you like to eat and how. I hate specific diets to me they are fads as you wont eat that way forever. If your food passion is spaggetti bollonaise you need to know how you can have it healthy not that you cant have it. hell you can even eat pancakes if you know how to make them right

2) Theres is a static diet ie yuo stay at 1800 calories. Now thats not bad but metabolism does adjust and the body conserves fat to suit the needs of the demands. I dont condone daily cycling as this gets way to complex and is easy to go astray. this method uses a 200 calorie down 100 calorie up weekly approach. People who have followed it tend to show consistent losses as the calories you supply peters down in line with your weightloss and also you always have a reward/refeed in sight.

3) Accompanying mine is a training plan matched to the calorie supply. Quite simply follow both rigidly you will succeed, vary or want to vary either then this method is not for you.

Some people it just doesnt suit as it employs HIT style training, body builders hate this method with venom as it flies in the face of what they do.

I am encountering the same problems... my "diet" is so expensive...

About 2 months ago, it was brought to my attention that I was not eating near enough for a. growing muscle b. having a metabolism.

With 6 meals a day, and 200 grams of protein... it get pricy!

This would be a time when it sucks to be 6'5"... beacuse you need just that much more food to fuel it!

epedx you have a turbo pack around your waist full of calories why would you want to eat more? DOnt believe the hype and also rid the fat before you try and add more bulk or you will never get where you want to be. There is nothing more disheartening than adding bulk on top of fat and then watching the measurements slide down as you strive to lose the fat

OK here we go then:

Where was I?

I was a obese and doomed to a life of bad fashion, expanding waistline, lowering self esteem and basicaly damn right miserable.

Now I started off reading all the mags, doing the HIIT, trying to burn the fat through adding muscle, upping my protein, making the healthy switches, paying attention to my food choices in relation to insulin and boy was it slow and laborious but I did make some headway.

But then I got wiser, I engaged and read up and was even luckier that Mens Health were asking for guinea pigs who'd go online and keep a blog and report what they were up to. There philosophy fitted mine spot on, their training and diet was where I was going and boy did it help.

Unlike some think I only got to train with them once a month but I did have support and could call anytime. But the support of others which this thread is about is what got me through it

So first off this is a symbiotic diet and training plan. Dont vary it, dont increase it just do it. By all means question the understanding of it as that is what helps you achieve and buy into it. BUT (notice the big butt - no not mine- but the same thing I say to anyone else who engages on this; why would you seek to change something that does work because you feel you know better when it hasnt worked before?

If you are not losing the weight then you are not applying it right re read it question it and be honest to yourself. Its not a training style that suits everyone, some just hate the principles, if you wanna run run but then if you do this format is not for you.

I always go on about the Jane Fonda mentality. As everyone harps on about the CV benefit for health. What they overlook is the slow progress you make with cardio into reducing fat. The here and now impact of excess weight is far more damaging to your health though than wether you are running or not. And trust me on this after 2 weeks of doing these routines you will actually do them right. You will be on the floor crying by the end of the session and probably lose the contents of your, by now, decreasing stomach and that my friends is true working to failure

So the training:

for those of you who are over 220 lbs and are new to the gym or have limited experience of free weights:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rugby.guy/Fatbut.doc

for those of you who are over 220 lbs and have experience of free weights:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rugby.guy/lanksuk.doc


for those of you who are under 220 lbs and are new to the gym or have limited experience of free weights:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rugby.guy/philgood.doc


for those of you who are under 220 lbs and have experience of free weights:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rugby.guy/bfg.doc

next up diet and food recording note I need to update the sheets for the higher volume guys I wil do that over the next few days but that will give you chance to read it first:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rugby.guy/diet.doc

some common Q and A's

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rugby.guy/QandAs.doc

and finally for those who have a month to spare the full thread:

http://www.menshealth.co.uk/chatroom/topic/271644

bfg1 saidepedx you have a turbo pack around your waist full of calories why would you want to eat more? DOnt believe the hype and also rid the fat before you try and add more bulk or you will never get where you want to be. There is nothing more disheartening than adding bulk on top of fat and then watching the measurements slide down as you strive to lose the fat

So you area suggesting, slimming down first the gaining bulk?

I thought it would be better to bulk up first then use all that extra mass to burn the calories.

Keep in mind that I am currently 6'5" with 200lbs of lean mass (plus some fat )

I would love to eat less food (totally cheaper!!!)

I will definitely check this out!

epedx said

So you area suggesting, slimming down first the gaining bulk?

I thought it would be better to bulk up first then use all that extra mass to burn the calories.

Keep in mind that I am currently 6'5" with 200lbs of lean mass (plus some fat )

I would love to eat less food (totally cheaper!!!)

There's no keeping in mind about I am afraid, I am being careful with my words as its not in my nature to offend nor is it helpful. But trust me you have enough to work with

Like you I initially bought into the ad muscle burn fat idealistic scenario and unless you are able to dedicate every waking hour to getting it spot on its best case aspirational worst case pure hype

Ask yourself this tho:

What's your body fat % ?
Have you worked out exactly how much lean muscle mass you would have to add to reduce that body fat percentage?

Most sources make it sound like the fat will melt off with adding muscle and it simply is not true or rather its misquoted. Until you surpass the equilibrium we are talking ounces change in metabolism due to added mass. You would be lucky to add 1lb a week of muscle bulking which would equate to an ounces change in fat burn versus 2lbs potential fat loss through cutting.

This route benefits you two fold (again its not saying the other way does not work long term as there is no right or wrong answer):

1) You will lose on average over the duration you need to go roughly 1 1/2 to 2lbs per week

2) If you stick to the matched training you will preserve what lean muscle mass you have gained. You may see a slight drop at the start (and I mean slight) but then should gain that back over the first few weeks whilst your body adjusts. The difference is too that if you stick this out long enough to reach your goal your stored glycogen will inevitably go down. Its not a great thing per se but when you start to bulk up and add the muscle cleanly you will benefit from Glycaemic rebound as the muscles fill quickly in the following week. Then you are in control of the diet as well. If you start to add the fat you know the tools how to cut it back. Don't just jump up to the magical "Internet" figure that you MUST have to bulk.

Does that kinda make sense?

bfg1 said[quote][cite]epedx said[/cite]

So you area suggesting, slimming down first the gaining bulk?

I thought it would be better to bulk up first then use all that extra mass to burn the calories.

Keep in mind that I am currently 6'5" with 200lbs of lean mass (plus some fat )

I would love to eat less food (totally cheaper!!!)

There's no keeping in mind about I am afraid, I am being careful with my words as its not in my nature to offend nor is it helpful. But trust me you have enough to work with

Like you I initially bought into the ad muscle burn fat idealistic scenario and unless you are able to dedicate every waking hour to getting it spot on its best case aspirational worst case pure hype

Ask yourself this tho:

What's your body fat % ?
Have you worked out exactly how much lean muscle mass you would have to add to reduce that body fat percentage?

Most sources make it sound like the fat will melt off with adding muscle and it simply is not true or rather its misquoted. Until you surpass the equilibrium we are talking ounces change in metabolism due to added mass. You would be lucky to add 1lb a week of muscle bulking which would equate to an ounces change in fat burn versus 2lbs potential fat loss through cutting.

This route benefits you two fold (again its not saying the other way does not work long term as there is no right or wrong answer):

1) You will lose on average over the duration you need to go roughly 1 1/2 to 2lbs per week

2) If you stick to the matched training you will preserve what lean muscle mass you have gained. You may see a slight drop at the start (and I mean slight) but then should gain that back over the first few weeks whilst your body adjusts. The difference is too that if you stick this out long enough to reach your goal your stored glycogen will inevitably go down. Its not a great thing per se but when you start to bulk up and add the muscle cleanly you will benefit from Glycaemic rebound as the muscles fill quickly in the following week. Then you are in control of the diet as well. If you start to add the fat you know the tools how to cut it back. Don't just jump up to the magical "Internet" figure that you MUST have to bulk.

Does that kinda make sense?

[/quote]

(cringe) 30% fat...

it does make sense, but it just seems such a lofy goal. And the workouts posted, seem to almost be a step back from what I am currently doing.

Yeah, I'm in. Will be great to be doing something along with other people.

epedx said
(cringe) 30% fat...

it does make sense, but it just seems such a lofy goal. And the workouts posted, seem to almost be a step back from what I am currently doing.

Trust me everyone says that. I said that at the start and boy was I wrong.

But did you read the format or just the routine? On cursory glance the routines look easy, then factor in the slow cadence 5 seconds up 5 seconds down (or 10/10 in the case of those with limited experience) and the supersets I doubt you would actually be able to sustain a proper session at your current weights.
In fact you will probably find you will probably start with 85% of your current weight levels you are lifting, but progression is the key as is Time Under Tension (TUT).

The easy way to find out is if you do the routine you are aiming for 1 set of 6 to 8 reps. If you manage 8 you wussed out and went too light. If you just about manage 6 then great next time push that last rep for up to 30 seconds until your body is screaming no more even if it only moves an inch next time invariably you find you get an extra rep out.

Try it for a month see how you fare as with any approach it takes a month to get all the factors right and really working for you.

As for the goal? well its better to have a realistic achievable goal than a plan with two goals that are diametrically opposed.

I've gotten through the diet and the workout pieces and so far so good. The work out is almost what I am doing exercise-wise now, with the exception of the slowness, so I am sure I will need to adjust my weights some what. Oh and also add in an extra day at the gym (which has been a goal anyway).

The diet looks interesting...I like the idea of just checking stuff off as you eat it. Easy way to track!

Man, that's a lot of water...probably double what I do now, and I don't like cold drinks. This might just be the hardest part for me to do. ;)

Still making my way through the FAQ; lots of good information. Thanks for getting all that put together.

bfg1 said[quote][cite]epedx said[/cite]
(cringe) 30% fat...

it does make sense, but it just seems such a lofy goal. And the workouts posted, seem to almost be a step back from what I am currently doing.

Trust me everyone says that. I said that at the start and boy was I wrong.

But did you read the format or just the routine? On cursory glance the routines look easy, then factor in the slow cadence 5 seconds up 5 seconds down (or 10/10 in the case of those with limited experience) and the supersets I doubt you would actually be able to sustain a proper session at your current weights.
In fact you will probably find you will probably start with 85% of your current weight levels you are lifting, but progression is the key as is Time Under Tension (TUT).

The easy way to find out is if you do the routine you are aiming for 1 set of 6 to 8 reps. If you manage 8 you wussed out and went too light. If you just about manage 6 then great next time push that last rep for up to 30 seconds until your body is screaming no more even if it only moves an inch next time invariably you find you get an extra rep out.

Try it for a month see how you fare as with any approach it takes a month to get all the factors right and really working for you.

As for the goal? well its better to have a realistic achievable goal than a plan with two goals that are diametrically opposed.[/quote]

What would be a realistic achievable goal in your mind?

Well in 12 weeks you could be looking nearer to 17% body fat thats half of what you have now. There is no way you could do that with your current approach.


However the benefit of what you have already done is that any lean muscle mass you have added will a) be retained and b) look bigger as you get more definition.

Then at the end of the 12 weeks assess do you want to take it lower or from there do you want to bulk with a view to keeping that body fat % low

thrion saidMan, that's a lot of water...probably double what I do now, and I don't like cold drinks. This might just be the hardest part for me to do. ;)

The 500 ml bottle and 8 rubber bands trick is really handy as you can a) easily trick yourself into thinking you have drunk more without it

and b) it helps you realise it actually aint that much

But its like everything, if you went straight up to that level today you would struggle yet tomorrow it would be easier until you form a habit. Like all things progression is key. SO dont concentrate on the 8 rubber bands today but see how many you drink today, in 3 days time increase it by an extra band and just carry on every 3 days like that until you are that level.

Think yourself lucky, to get down to the full 6 pack I was glugging 7 litres a day

So all weekend I was paying attention to the amount of water I was drinking, and I was pleasantly surprised. Although not *nearly* 4.5 liters, it was over 2.

Yesterday I decided to go for the gold with all 4.5, and I survived. ;)

Liters one and two (before lunch) went down pretty easy. Liter three took about 4 hours to get down and I thought I was going to die. Liter four was easy...just had to get over the liter three hump. The other half liter I did with dinner/before bed.

The gym is, so far, easy to integrate. I already worked out on Tuesdays and Saturdays, so I committed to hitting it on Thursday as well.

Diet I thought would be pretty easy to follow, but work stress has made it a little more challenging. Pretty much the entire office is heading out to lunch every day where I face bad challenges, but last night one of my friends said something when I mentioned that to her that really hit home, she said, "Hey, you just need to really be present all the time to how your decisions are effecting your life. Go out with everyone from the office, but before you eat, think about how what you are about to eat will effect you tomorrow."

Brilliant.

Anyways, thanks again for doing this. Wish more people would join in the discussion, but whatever; I am going to go through with it regardless.

i'll be in here soon enough. i need to finish up some stuff for school, move out of my apt and back home and i'll be working on this as of next monday/tuesday if not earlier.

I'm starting the workout portion of this today, and have a question. So, in each of the sets, how many reps am I shooting for? Also, what's the aim of this 5/5 cadence thing? Do I really need to sit there and count off 5 seconds up and 5 seconds down for each rep?

Hey, I noticed something interesting. The more water I drink during the day, the less I sweat when I work out. Very odd.

So far so good, things are going well. Going out of town this weekend, but I think I will be back in time on Sunday to hit the gym.

Since we're updating, I have to say that I am so not on track. I need to get some damned motivation (and stop being so cheap and actually go out and buy groceries for the week).

What's everyone eating for breakfast?

I haven't found anything yet that really holds me through till lunch; until this I had been drinking a protein shake first thing in the morning and that usually did it, but now I am trying to mix it up some, but haven't found anything yet.

Suggestions?

thrion saidWhat's everyone eating for breakfast?

I haven't found anything yet that really holds me through till lunch; until this I had been drinking a protein shake first thing in the morning and that usually did it, but now I am trying to mix it up some, but haven't found anything yet.

Suggestions?

You shouldn't really be eating a breakfast and then assuming it's going to hold you until lunch. At least, that's my understanding. By all means, eat a good, hearty breakfast (I tend to go with granola and lowfat yogurt or nonfat milk, plus some fruit and a boiled egg, but I like simple breakfasts that are quick), but you should be eating a small snack between breakfast and lunch. Perhaps some dried or fresh fruit, nuts, whole grain crackers?

I might have it wrong, but that's how I work it.

First off sorry I havent been around guys I had to go abroad on work and then was on a training course. Was just about to come back on and my granddad died, he had a bloody good innings at 95 years old and went out with dignity and style and the choleresterol levels a fit healthy 20 years old would be proud of.

So now to pick up things

thrion said

, but last night one of my friends said something when I mentioned that to her that really hit home, she said, "Hey, you just need to really be present all the time to how your decisions are effecting your life. Go out with everyone from the office, but before you eat, think about how what you are about to eat will effect you tomorrow."

Your friend has it spot on. But the question is how do you make that informed choice? Well the one thing this diet approach offers is control. Whilst it is regimented in its macro split it teaches you about portion control as the weeks progress and empowers you to make that informed choice. But its not prescriptive. You are in control of the boxes that you tick. At the end of the day we are all human and are not body builders but simply guys wanting to change something for the better. so eating out once in a while or even once a week aint gonna break the bank or really affect the fat loss if you know how to minimise the damage.

Chewey_Delt saidI'm starting the workout portion of this today, and have a question. So, in each of the sets, how many reps am I shooting for? Also, what's the aim of this 5/5 cadence thing? Do I really need to sit there and count off 5 seconds up and 5 seconds down for each rep?

Like all new exercises or routines it will seem odd at first on the cadence. So counting, maybe not out loud but in your head, is very important as we tend to rush that count when we get tired. After a few weeks of the routine you yourself will know exactly what it feels like. But even then I switch back to counting once in a while or getting someone to time me.

Re reps: the whole ethos of this is working to failure. So first of its only 1 set. That set should be aiming for a minimum of 6 reps but aspiring to 8.

If you dont manage 6 dont sweat it but push for a further 15 to 30 seconds even if it dont move much next time you can bet your arse it will go all the way up. If you get to 8 and can keep going then do so as it means you were a total wuss with what you thought you could do and next time step up to the plate like a man :-)

Chewey_Delt said[quote][cite]thrion said[/cite]What's everyone eating for breakfast?

I haven't found anything yet that really holds me through till lunch; until this I had been drinking a protein shake first thing in the morning and that usually did it, but now I am trying to mix it up some, but haven't found anything yet.

Suggestions?

You shouldn't really be eating a breakfast and then assuming it's going to hold you until lunch. At least, that's my understanding. By all means, eat a good, hearty breakfast (I tend to go with granola and lowfat yogurt or nonfat milk, plus some fruit and a boiled egg, but I like simple breakfasts that are quick), but you should be eating a small snack between breakfast and lunch. Perhaps some dried or fresh fruit, nuts, whole grain crackers?

I might have it wrong, but that's how I work it.[/quote]

Nope yuo have it right

For breakfast I find you cant beat porridge or rather oats as you guys prefer to just call it. Its slow release and will keep ya going. Fresh fruit and a glass of milk is always my choice of snacks but crackers and stuff can be easy and more portable as can a home made low fat fruit malt loaf (the only problem with the latter is that its hard to stop at one slice ha ha ha )

thrion saidHey, I noticed something interesting. The more water I drink during the day, the less I sweat when I work out. Very odd.

Not really, think of water like oil in a car. Keep the parts well oiled and plenty of coolant and the engine works efficiently and creates less friction or heat in this case.

Also one of the biggest reasons most guys dont get to see that 6 pack despite low body fat is dehydration. the more ya drink the less you retain. the more you drink the better you liver and kidneys can operate. One of the other advantages you will find is that any sweat you do have is likely to have minimal smell attached to it. Unlike some gym go ers phewieeeeeee

Give me some input on this, because this is what I've been doing while your away for the sake of my own convenience.

Instead of going with the specific workout you've put up, I've just been using the RJ Muscle Building program (pared down a bit) because I haven't had the time or energy to research what all the various exercises you are (I'm a plebeian when it comes to knowing what exercises are what), but I've been using the strategy that you've detailed as far as the cadence goes and the lifting to failure. I use the Muscle Building program because it's similar to yours as far as focusing on different muscle groups every other day and the descriptions are already conveniently there.

Chewey_Delt saidGive me some input on this, because this is what I've been doing while your away for the sake of my own convenience.

Instead of going with the specific workout you've put up, I've just been using the RJ Muscle Building program (pared down a bit) because I haven't had the time or energy to research what all the various exercises you are (I'm a plebeian when it comes to knowing what exercises are what), but I've been using the strategy that you've detailed as far as the cadence goes and the lifting to failure. I use the Muscle Building program because it's similar to yours as far as focusing on different muscle groups every other day and the descriptions are already conveniently there.

could explain your lack of energy then as the calorie requirement is matched to that training plan. Alter the variables and something has got to give. Also you could find that the routine you are doing si not designed for a pre exhaustion technique which this one is and that can affect your sleep even more as you really start to play havoc with your CNS.

for descriptions on the exercises either hit me up and send me links (I am going to try tomorrow and do another sheet detailing what everything is and giving you a link to a good example) but if you are itchy to get going then use www.exrx.netnow

so i managed by some obvious oversights (ie not looking at the mirror and avoiding cameras) to get to 260lbs on my 6 foot frame. i got a bug up me arse (can i say that?) and laid off ranch dressing, french fries, and burgers... i took trimspa for 7 weeks.. and that combo dropped me to about 200. every day plus minus...... with only walking as my excercise... i was happy with the scale, but i was still flabby... so two years later i am at the gym... and working out.. im now 185 plus minus... no fast food... a 33 inch waist (from 46) xxl t shirts to medium... but i still have a gut... i do the abinator (the abs machine) a lot... 10 each reps of 80/90/100/110/120 at least four times during my 2x week work out.... any advice?

yeh first off read the start of this thread and you will probably realised that your diet now is either static or you have managed to kill your metabolism as dead as a dodo.

Your body sounds also like it is used to the demands you place on it and at a ridiculous figure of something stupid like 20,000 sit ups/crunches whatever to burn a pound of fat your efforts are wasted. I call it wishful abs. By all means work the core, but dont expect a six pack to emerge like a butterfly with that approach cos it aint gonna happen

Not sure why I haven't updated in a while. But anyways, this has been working really well for me. I haven't had a huge weight loss, but I am down 3 notches in my belt and I am seeing results in my body shape that I didn't think I would ever see. I still have a ways to go, but this has worked better than anything I have done before. Awesome.

I've been eating tuna for lunch every day.