Arab World expelled ~700,000 Jewish Citizens... Creating 700k Refugees

  • dglater

    Posts: 255

    May 11, 2011 2:54 PM GMT
    Israel had to provide those Arab citizens a place to stay...
    Those refugees didn't know what Zionism was, or anything, they just wanted a place to call home after the Brutality they faced in the Arab World.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries
  • TrentGrad

    Posts: 1541

    May 15, 2011 1:47 AM GMT
    Oh, the Arab world has a very bad reputation for dealing with it's former Jewish communities...which used to thrive.

    I read something a while back suggesting that the land holdings that were seized from Jews in the Arab world amount to a landmass four times the size of Israel, and the value of that property is in the $700 billion range.

    Some places, like Iraq and Egypt, simply harassed and brutalized their Jewish citizens into fleeing; other places, like Algeria, summarily denied their Jewish populace citizenship when they became independent.

    Sadly, the fact that there are more voices in Israel who advocate for the fair treatment of Palestinians than there have ever been in the Arab world advocating for the fair treatment of the Jews and of Israel never seems to resonate with the side that advocate on behalf of the Palestinians.



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    May 17, 2011 3:58 AM GMT
    Additional information:

    http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_refugees_jews_what.php

    http://www.mideastweb.org/refugees4.htm

    http://www.jewlicious.com/2010/02/finally-a-law-for-the-jewish-refugees-of-1948-1956

    http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/2011/01/massacre-of-jews-by-muslims-before-1948.html

    http://www.standwithus.com/TEACHINGTOOLS/il101lpU6.asp

    http://www.justiceforjews.com

    http://www.jimena.org
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    May 18, 2011 1:32 AM GMT




    wtf?
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    May 18, 2011 9:30 PM GMT
    One can only wonder how many generations she has instilled with the same hate (of Jews) that her parents taught her.

    Note the reference to the 1929 massacre of Hebron's Jewish community:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8219864.stm
    A small museum in the Old City of Hebron... displays evidence of the massacre eight decades ago - a photograph of a girl struck over the head with a sword with her brain spilling out; a woman with bandaged hands; people with their eyes gouged out.

    These are the well-documented atrocities committed by an Arab mob seeking to drive their Jewish neighbours out of Hebron.

    ...some Arab policemen even joined in the killings.

    Before someone tries to muddy the waters with meaningless slogans, the victims were not "settlers" but members of an ancient Jewish community.

    The article also speaks of Arabs who hid and protected Jews.


    Another chilling account of the massacre is provided by the Canadian Journalist Pierre van Paassen:

    http://www.hebron.com/english/article.php?id=252

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    May 18, 2011 10:24 PM GMT
    A very inconvenient fact that is often ignored. I don't see why their situation is any different than that of Palestinians who were forced/coerced into leaving Israel.
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    May 19, 2011 1:28 PM GMT
    Jaym86 saidA very inconvenient fact that is often ignored. I don't see why their situation is any different than that of Palestinians who were forced/coerced into leaving Israel.

    For starters, the majority of Arab refugees were not forced/coerced but fled due to the Arab choice for war over peaceful coexistence.
    Most were able to take what they could carry, including retaining their savings.

    The other big difference is, of course, what happened to each of these refugee populations.

    Nearly 1 million Jewish refugees were put in transfer camps in Israel and, over a decade, absorbed into Israeli society.
    (Roughly doubling Israel's population.)

    The 700,000 Arab refugees were thrown into "refugee camps". Not by Israel, but by Arab governments.
    They are denied the rights guaranteed to all other refugees. Not by Israel, but by Arab governments.
    The right to education, work, relocation and naturalization (citizenship) in their new country.
    (See the "Geneva Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees".)

    Not to mention that their children, grandchildren and great-great-grandchildren should not be refugees but citizens of the country where they (and their parents and great-grandparents) were born.

    There were scores of millions of refugees in the 1940s.
    All have long since been resettled. Except for one (relatively) small group.

    Strange, but not surprising, that the people who pretend to care about them (only inasmuch as they seek to ab/use them to demonize Israel) prefer to keep this population locked in their decrepid camps (where conditions are much worse than in Gaza) rather than see them gain those rights immediately. Be it for generations or even "400 years" to come.

    They wish to preserve this population for use as a demographic army to over-run Israel and thus destroy the Jewish state.
    They even pretend to support the "two state solution" - where both states are Arab.

    Any of the usual suspects could prove me wrong by posting a topic about "The plight of Arab refugees in Arab countries"... but there's a reason that in the year or two since I first suggested it not one has done so. For these faux "humanitarians", that's simply not part of their hate-based agenda.
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    May 19, 2011 1:46 PM GMT
    Jaym86 saidA very inconvenient fact that is often ignored. I don't see why their situation is any different than that of Palestinians who were forced/coerced into leaving Israel.


    Yep.
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    May 19, 2011 1:51 PM GMT
    I found reading the History of Britten interesting, where there was a time in England where the jews were only permitted to behold certain jobs, because of the lack of trust associated to them. One of the professions they could work in was that of money lending, and they thrived in this. had many aristocrats and people like that as clients, they got to also learn a lot about their private lives too, and used this information to blackmail clients, and for this they were punished.
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    May 19, 2011 4:23 PM GMT
    True_blue_aussie saidI found reading the History of Britten interesting, where there was a time in England where the jews were only permitted to behold certain jobs, because of the lack of trust associated to them. One of the professions they could work in was that of money lending, and they thrived in this. had many aristocrats and people like that as clients, they got to also learn a lot about their private lives too, and used this information to blackmail clients, and for this they were punished.



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    UH OH !!! True_Blue, you are now considered an Anti Semitic because even if what you said it is true, most of the above will consider your exposing anything wrong done by a Jew as you seeking the destruction of Israel !! Isn't that a shame that some feel so entitled and so fanatical about their Jewish Homeland that they actually believe they're above exposure to the truth if it puts them in negative light? Kinda spoiled child like I'd say !!


    Note above C4's ZIONIST PROPAGANDA twist on why around 400,000 Palestinians left their homes and fled Palestine !! Actually the ZIONISTS spread a rumor of war to get them to leave and in actuality it was a ZIONIST FALSE FLAG OPERATION, now THE ZIONISTS have it that the Palestinians were war mongering so they don't deserve to come back. Strange how well they use German type Propaganda to get their way, when in the 40's they didn't like those tactics that took their homes and destroyed their culture in much of Europe, but its suddenly ok to use against the Palestinians to get their way.

    A PATHETIC HYPOCRISY, and of course I hate Jews and seek Israels destruction according to some above because I expose the truth. How to seek peace with such is beyond me !! Oh well !! This tactics both expose themselves and cause them to be "MORE ISOLATED THAN EVER" as C4 himself said, but these same folks put on ignore so they don't have to be exposed to reality. Self defeating actions don't you think !!!!
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    May 24, 2011 2:27 AM GMT
    Answer this !!! Is the Arab and the Germans wrongs and atrocities commited against the Jews any reason for the Jews through Zionism to turn around and continue to this very day to steal more and more Palestinian lands, farms and homes for their Zionist Settlers ? Are the Palestinians of today or of the last 60 years responsible to pay by loss of their homes, for what has been done wrong by others in the past against the Jews ?
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    May 24, 2011 3:15 AM GMT
    pouncer> Fact no. 1 - The Arab world "expelled" no Jewish citizens.

    ROTFL. I don't think the word "fact" means what you think it means.
    Much like "adumbrated" and a short list of big words you abused.

    p> Jews in such places as Iraq were given the choice to leave for Israel.

    What was their alternative and why were those who left deprived of their property and savings?


    The majority of Arab refugees were fled due to the Arab choice for war over peaceful coexistence.
    Most were able to take what they could carry, including retaining their savings.


    p> Most of the Palestinians (at least 72%) were expelled directly by the Jewish military and terrorist groups in 1947-1948

    Just today pouncer told us that the "elite" fled even before the start of the civil-war (started upon passage of the UN partition compromise, with Arabs attacking Jewish population centers).

    The British officer commanding the Arab Legion noted:
    The Arab civilians panicked and fled ignominiously. Villages were frequently abandoned before they were threatened by the progress of war.

    The majority of the Arab refugees never saw a Jewish/Israeli soldier.
    Prof. Benny Morris confirms that the majority fled due to the fear of war threatened by the Arabs.
    Some on the orders of their own leadership.
    Some based on the fear-mongering caused by Arab propagandists.
    (Note how pouncer and tokugawa seek to still perpetuate the same propaganda.)


    p> was over half-way finished by the time the neighbouring Arab countries declared war on Israel

    Benny Morris:
    Only an extremely small, almost insignificant number of the refugees during this early period left because of Haganah or IZL or LHI expulsion orders or forceful ‘advice’ to that effect. Many more – especially women, children and old people – left as a result of orders or advice from Arab military commanders and officials.


    Most of this has already been discussed in much greater detail in this topic.

    1947-1948: Arabs reject compromise and attack Israel
    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/960691

    Note, for example, that at Jaffa (where the anti-Israel hatist claim there was a "massacre"), 94% fled before entry of Israeli forces; 6% became Israeli citizens

    We all know why pouncer chooses to regurgitated his spam propaganda lies here.


    The other big difference is, of course, what happened to each of these refugee populations.

    Nearly 1 million Jewish refugees were put in transfer camps in Israel and, over a decade, absorbed into Israeli society.
    (Roughly doubling Israel's population.)

    The 700,000 Arab refugees were thrown into "refugee camps". Not by Israel, but by Arab governments.
    They are denied the rights guaranteed to all other refugees. Not by Israel, but by Arab governments.
    The right to education, work, relocation and naturalization (citizenship) in their new country.
    (See the "Geneva Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees".)


    p> You are aware that the ACLU and even conservative human rights organizations like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch completely disagree with you (both organizations issued statements during the Camp David Talks insisting that the Palestinian right of return was integral to the process)? You are aware that HRW itself tried desperately to find, in an accumulation of past legal precedents, a basis (any basis) for denying the Palestinians their legal right to return to their homeland, and ended up having to admit that such rights were inalienable?

    Ridiculous assertions.
    In the 1940s, there were scores of millions of refugees.
    None of them had a "right of return".

    In a prior discussion about the so-called "right of return", for lack of a better option, you claimed its origin in UNGAR 194 (which explicitly lists alternative to repatriation!). When I pointed out that the other 90% of this Resolution was based on the Arabs making peace with Israel, you then dismissed the parts of the Resolution that didn't have a precedent... which would thus include even the "ROR" (which is nonetheless not mentioned in the Resolution, which also outlines alternatives to that).

    Notice the logical circle? How can an intelligent person claim that something originates in a document which he then dismisses?


    p> if the Jews were "ethnically cleansed" (laugh) from "Judea and Samaria", then they have no right to "return" there to build their settlements do they?

    You only laugh at your own idiocy/ignorance and again highlight how little you know.

    I have never claimed that Jews have a "right of return" to Judea & Samaria (from which, along with eastern Jerusalem and Gaza, all Jews were ethnically cleansed during the 1948 Arab invasion).

    I have claimed that Jews have a right to live in Judea & Samara (and eastern Jerusalem and Gaza).
    Do you disagree?

    The only hypocritical contradiction here is your own. As noted in that other topic, UNGAR 194 speaks of "refugees" - including both the Jewish and Arab refugees that resulted from the Arab war. How can you claim that the Arab refugees have a "right of return" while denying it to the Jewish refugees?
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    May 24, 2011 3:17 AM GMT
    Well I'll be damned, Leerons getting repititious again !!
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    May 24, 2011 3:23 AM GMT
    sxydrkhair said
    Pouncer saidFact no. 1 - The Arab world "expelled" no Jewish citizens.
    Fact no. 2 - Most of the Palestinians (at least 72%) were expelled directly by the Jewish military and terrorist groups in 1947-1948
    Fact no 3 - This crime against humanity occurred and was over half-way finished by the time the neighbouring Arab countries declared war on Israel and the Jews in such places as Iraq were given the choice to leave for Israel.

    c4>The right to education, work, relocation and naturalization (citizenship) in their new country.
    (See the "Geneva Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees".)

    You are aware that the ACLU and even conservative human rights organizations like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch completely disagree with you (both organizations issued statements during the Camp David Talks insisting that the Palestinian right of return was integral to the process)?

    You are aware that HRW itself tried desperately to find, in an accumulation of past legal precedents, a basis (any basis) for denying the Palestinians their legal right to return to their homeland, and ended up having to admit that such rights were inalienable?

    Kosovo wasn't an exception to this. Neither was the Sudetenland or the other ethnically cleansed areas of the former Yugoslavia.

    Also, if the Jews were "ethnically cleansed" (laugh) from "Judea and Samaria", then they have no right to "return" there to build their settlements do they?


    Correct!

    If Arab Jews were forced or fled from their homes, how come they aren't fighting their right of return like the Palestinians?

    I watch this video about a Jew from Morocco. Reuven Aberjel, one of the founders of the Black Panthers of Israel, shows us on a tour of the Moroccan Jewish neighbourhood of Jerusalem.

    Aberjel points out the houses where Palestinians were evicted now inhabited by Arab Jews and some European Jews. He talks about the history of the Black Panthers in Israel and comments on the injustice of the occupation, the complicity of Arab countries, and his opinions on interests of Zionism and its elites.





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    You know sxydrkhair I think there probably are a majority of jewish folks like this fellow. Its just that the Leerons of this world are louder.
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    May 24, 2011 12:15 PM GMT
    sxydrkhair> I just hate that when people have to lie.

    You mean like you have to lie-for-the-cause?


    sxydrkhair> If Jews from Arab world fight like Palestinians, then I am sure they will get their rights!

    You think that if the few remaining Jews in the Arab world started blowing up busses, markets and cafes and launched rockets at civilian population centeres that they will suddenly be granted rights in Arab countries?

    That they will then, after 60 years, be compensated for the hundreds of billions of dollars that were taken from them?


    Has it not yet crossed your mind that the Palestinian Arabs best hope is to make peace rather than fight?!

    Unless, that is, your real goal is to "fight" to destroy Israel.
    Is that why you are against compromise and peace?
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    May 24, 2011 1:27 PM GMT
    sxydrkhair saidI just hate that when people have to lie.

    If Jews from Arab world fight like Palestinians, then I am sure they will get their rights!


    Why do you say that? It hasn't proven successful for the Palestinians thus far.
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    May 24, 2011 1:43 PM GMT
    Jaym86 said
    sxydrkhair saidI just hate that when people have to lie.

    If Jews from Arab world fight like Palestinians, then I am sure they will get their rights!


    Why do you say that? It hasn't proven successful for the Palestinians thus far.


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    I am convinced that had the US not backed Israel even in the wrongfull Settlement issues and land grabbing that Israel would have been more interested in seeking peace with the Palestinians, that the Palestinians would have been more successful in keeping most of their land.

    And no I am not condoning some of the atrocious bombings from the likes of Hamas, though you have to concede that the Palestinians were forced into a desperate corner by the combination of Israels continuously pushing out the Palestinians and Carte Blanche US backing.
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    May 24, 2011 1:50 PM GMT
    Jaym86 said
    sxydrkhair saidI just hate that when people have to lie.

    If Jews from Arab world fight like Palestinians, then I am sure they will get their rights!


    Why do you say that? It hasn't proven successful for the Palestinians thus far.


    LOL if Jews from the Arab world fought like Palestinians, then the Muslims would have, and with some reason, exterminated all the Jews in the Middle East.
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    May 24, 2011 3:37 PM GMT
    JB82 said
    Jaym86 said
    sxydrkhair saidI just hate that when people have to lie.

    If Jews from Arab world fight like Palestinians, then I am sure they will get their rights!


    Why do you say that? It hasn't proven successful for the Palestinians thus far.


    LOL if Jews from the Arab world fought like Palestinians, then the Muslims would have, and with some reason, exterminated all the Jews in the Middle East.



    ___________________________________________________


    To avoid this hate that you describe from the Muslims, why doesn't Israel try the simple cure of stopping the mistreatment of the Palestinians in takeing their lands, farms and homes from them. Why doesn't Israel stop the Settlements that are taking more and more land of the Palestinians ?
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    May 25, 2011 3:33 PM GMT
    p> Jews in such places as Iraq were given the choice to leave for Israel.

    What was their alternative and why were those who left deprived of their property and savings?

    p> Their alternative was to stay. If Jews chose to leave Iraq, they had to leave their possessions, but they were never expelled.

    To stay as full and equal citizens? Of course not.

    Why were those who left deprived of their property and savings?

    How is that despite these draconian conditions, virtually all left?


    p> In Iraq, the law that was passed allowing Iraqis to leave the country if they so wished never even mentioned the Jews.

    So you are saying that before that law was passed - which did not apply to Jews - it was illegal for Jews to leave?
    And this is the viable "alternative" you saw for them?


    p> Avi Shlaim, (who was born in Baghdad in 1945, and who's family had to seek shelter in the British embassy as anti-Jewish violence sweeped the streets)

    And this is the viable "alternative" you saw for Jews?


    Shlaim> We left out of our own free will.

    So you agree that any Arabs that left of their own free will are "not refugees"?


    p> Much of the Palestinian landowning elite (not the common Arab citizens

    Thanks for confirming that the common Arab citizens did not own land.
    Despite the constant propaganda we hear to the contrary.


    The majority of Arab refugees fled due to the Arab choice for war over peaceful coexistence.
    Most were able to take what they could carry, including retaining their savings.

    Morris> Only an extremely small, almost insignificant number of the refugees during this early period left because of Haganah or IZL or LHI expulsion orders or forceful ‘advice’ to that effect. Many more – especially women, children and old people – left as a result of orders or advice from Arab military commanders and officials.


    p> The December 1947 - June 1948 intelligence document...

    The usual idiocy. Looking at one document (as if it has to be right?) while ignoring all other evidence.
    Though better than earlier in your post, where you quote two half-sentences and seek to close the matter.
    As I noted, history is like a foreign language to you.


    The British officer commanding the Arab Legion noted:
    The Arab civilians panicked and fled ignominiously. Villages were frequently abandoned before they were threatened by the progress of war.

    The majority of the Arab refugees never saw a Jewish/Israeli soldier.
    Prof. Benny Morris confirms that the majority fled due to the fear of war threatened by the Arabs.
    Some on the orders of their own leadership.
    Some based on the fear-mongering caused by Arab propagandists.
    (Note how pouncer and tokugawa seek to still perpetuate the same propaganda.)

    p> ?


    Note that the Arabs, the majority of which fled, were not deprived of their possessions as a condition of leaving.
    In most cases, there were no Jews/Israelis present to do so.


    The other big difference is, of course, what happened to each of these refugee populations.

    Nearly 1 million Jewish refugees were put in transfer camps in Israel and, over a decade, absorbed into Israeli society.
    (Roughly doubling Israel's population.)

    The 700,000 Arab refugees were thrown into "refugee camps". Not by Israel, but by Arab governments.
    They are denied the rights guaranteed to all other refugees. Not by Israel, but by Arab governments.
    The right to education, work, relocation and naturalization (citizenship) in their new country.
    (See the "Geneva Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees".)


    p> ?


    In the 1940s, there were scores of millions of refugees.
    None of them had a "right of return".


    p> you can only give examples (many under the exceptional circumstances of WWII) from the 1940s.

    Do the 400,000 Palestinian Arabs expelled from Kuwait in 1990 have a "right of return"?


    In a prior discussion about the so-called "right of return", for lack of a better option, you claimed its origin in UNGAR 194 (which explicitly lists alternative to repatriation!). When I pointed out that the other 90% of this Resolution was based on the Arabs making peace with Israel, you then dismissed the parts of the Resolution that didn't have a precedent... which would thus include even the "ROR" (which is nonetheless not mentioned in the Resolution, which also outlines alternatives to that).

    Notice the logical circle? How can an intelligent person claim that something originates in a document which he then dismisses?


    p> The "alternative" (though you have lied about it) is a matter of Arab CHOICE ie. "those choosing not to return" can be recompensed by other means.

    False, any return was predicated first on peace being made, and was not legally required (the legal distinction between "should" and "shall").

    But, as usual, you miss the point. You can't claim that the RoR originates from UNGAR 194 and then dismiss the parts of that resolution first requiring peace because they aren't based on prior existing international law (which in itself is also wrong).


    p> if the Jews were "ethnically cleansed" (laugh) from "Judea and Samaria", then they have no right to "return" there to build their settlements do they?

    I have never claimed that Jews have a "right of return" to Judea & Samaria (from which, along with eastern Jerusalem and Gaza, all Jews were ethnically cleansed during the 1948 Arab invasion).

    I have claimed that Jews have a right to live in Judea & Samara (and eastern Jerusalem and Gaza).
    Do you disagree?


    p> Of course not.

    OK, then we've established that Jews living in Judea & Samaria is not "illegal".

    p> they can't be allowed to live there as Israeli citizens under the authority of the Israeli government. The issue should be a matter for the Palestinian Authority

    First a border needs to be determined.
    Something which, for decades, Arab parties rejected.
    Israel was under no obligation to wait forever at the expense of these Jews.


    The only hypocritical contradiction here is your own. As noted in that other topic, UNGAR 194 speaks of "refugees" - including both the Jewish and Arab refugees that resulted from the Arab war. How can you claim that the Arab refugees have a "right of return" while denying it to the Jewish refugees from Judea, Samaria, eastern Jerusalem and Gaza?

    p> ?
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    May 25, 2011 5:04 PM GMT
    Pouncer saidc4> To stay as full and equal citizens? Of course not ... Why were those who left deprived of their property and savings? ... How is that that despite these draconian conditions, virtually all left?

    1./ There were NO Jews expelled from the Arab world.
    2./ There were NO Jewish refugees.
    3./ There were NO Jewish villages that were destroyed.
    4./ There were NO Jewish houses that were mined.
    5./ There were NO official state armies committing massacres of Jews.
    6./ There were NO death marches being held.
    7./ There was NO deliberate poisoning by germs of water sources supplying Jewish towns.
    8./ There were NO mass graves dug on the beaches of Arab countries to bury the bodies of massacred Jewish civilians.
    9./ There was NO ethnic cleansing of Jews by Arabs in any Arab country.
    10./ There were NO examples of Arabs 'throwing Jews into the sea' in any Arab country.

    These are all Israel's crimes, not the Arabs'.

    The ONLY state agents with an official policy to harm Jews in the Arab world were those of ISRAEL.


    That you don't understand the poignance of a Jewish Iraqi-born Oxford professor claiming there was no tradition of anti-Semitism in Iraq, that anti-Semitism was a European phenomenon, after suffering personally the full Arab backlash against the Jews after the 1948 war, is entirely unsurprising.


    FALSE. You're either naively basing this solely on Avi Shlaim's claims or this is purely what you want to believe anyway.
  • dglater

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    May 25, 2011 7:15 PM GMT
    I was under the assumption that it was obvious that Jews were expelled from the arab world.

    Almost all Jews of Algeria left upon independence in 1962, after being deprived of Algerian citizenship by the authorities.[citation needed] Algeria's 140,000 Jews, who had French citizenship since 1870 (briefly revoked by Vichy France in 1940) left mostly for France, although some went to Israel.[31]
    Following the Algerian Civil War most of the thousand-odd Jews living mainly in Algiers and Blida, Constantine, and Oran, left the country. The Algiers synagogue was consequently abandoned after 1994.
    Jewish migration from North Africa to France led to the rejuvenation of the French Jewish community, which is now the third largest in the world.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945_Cairo_pogrom

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries
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    May 25, 2011 10:08 PM GMT
    There were plenty of pogroms and government restrictions in place on Jews in Arab and Muslim countries. I can't be bothered to look up sources for you although the wikipedia link in the OP's first post is useful. I wouldn't rely solely on Avi Shlaim for my claims if I were you. I could probably find a Palestinian to say there was no forced removal of Palestinians when Israel was formed.
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    May 25, 2011 10:40 PM GMT
    Pouncer saidI'm sure you could. But what you couldn't find is a Palestinian Oxbridge professor, an acclaimed expert on Middle Eastern history born and raised in Palestine when said events were underway, claiming there were no forced dispossessions of Palestinians by the Jews.

    I didn't say that violence/racism didn't flare up sporadically in the Muslim world during certain periods. I said there was no 'culture' of anti-Semitism in the Muslim world. In other words, Anti-Semitism was not the default mode by which Arabs dealt with Jews (unlike in say, Europe).

    In the Muslim world, more invective historically has been directed at the Kurdish and Armenian peoples, the Copts, the Turkoman, etc.

    Do you know that when the Christians conquered Spain from the Muslims (the 'Reconquista', or reconquest) that most of the Jews left with them? That's why until recently there had been such large numbers of Jews across Morocco and North Africa for example.


    Okay, so all it takes is one Oxbridge professor then?? That's ridiculous and you know it. Anyway, what concerns me more is your denial of the Jewish refugees. It's been well documented that some Jews were coerced if not outright forced to leave their homes. I'm not denying that similar things happened to some Palestinians, but that doesn't change the situation of Jewish refugees.
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    May 26, 2011 12:10 AM GMT
    This is the same "flawed" methodology that pouncer, for a split second, admitted to.
    In this case, it's the fallacy of appeal to authority - in lieu of actually discussing the contested points.

    Let's help him out by taking it one segment at a time:

    p> Jews in such places as Iraq were given the choice to leave for Israel.

    What was their alternative and why were those who left deprived of their property and savings?

    p> Their alternative was to stay. If Jews chose to leave Iraq, they had to leave their possessions, but they were never expelled.

    To stay as full and equal citizens? Of course not.

    Why were those who left deprived of their property and savings?

    How is that despite these draconian conditions, virtually all left?


    p> In Iraq, the law that was passed allowing Iraqis to leave the country if they so wished never even mentioned the Jews.

    So you are saying that before that law was passed - which did not apply to Jews - it was illegal for Jews to leave?
    And this is the viable "alternative" you saw for them?


    p> Avi Shlaim, (who was born in Baghdad in 1945, and who's family had to seek shelter in the British embassy as anti-Jewish violence sweeped the streets)

    And this is the viable "alternative" you saw for Jews?