Was Jesus an Angel before He became Jesus?

  • twilight2010

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    May 25, 2011 7:20 AM GMT
    Before Jesus Christ was born He appeared to the Old Testament Prophets in the Bible as the Angel of the Lord. I have just done a HUGE study on this and the results of the study has been quite amazing.

    Now a lot of Christians are indeed divided on this issue.

    I was not accepting this idea before I really began to study. So I ask you Christians was Jesus Christ existing before His Birth on earth?

    From scripture I can say yes but what do you believe in your religious denominations?

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    May 25, 2011 8:37 AM GMT
    Yes, he did exist before his birth on earth. Wasn't there a passage that actually put him in charge of the creation process?

    He was definitely not an angel. According to scripture, angels are created just as we are.

  • twilight2010

    Posts: 307

    May 25, 2011 1:09 PM GMT
    Yes i know in John Chapter One it says that everything was made by Jesus.

    The Word Became Flesh
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
    3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

    I realise that Jesus Christ is NOT a created being. The word angel means in Greek Messenger and in Hebrew. Basicly Jesus was the messenger.

    Malachi 3
    1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts

    So Jesus is the messenger of the covenant now a question? Who is the angel of the Lord?
    Judges 13:21-22
    ((22) And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

    Exodus 3:2-4
    (2) And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.(3) And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

    (4) And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

    So who is the angel of the Lord? Well it cannot be God because God has never been seen by any man ever. It must be Jesus Christ before he was born of flesh.

    After all Jesus created the world.

    but what I found really gets interesting. We see Jesus is the one raising the dead.

    16. Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise again first. Thessalonians 4:16 Greens Literal Translation

    Now lets see what Christ said when He was on Earth.

    25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

    27. And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:25-29

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    May 26, 2011 12:44 PM GMT
    The term "angel" can mean either "messenger" or "bearer of news/tidings", especially as used in the New Testament Greek word "angelos".

    Angels in this sense can be humans, or the members of the class of created angelic beings (typically appearing with great power and in God's glory).

    Less frequently in the NT does the phrase "the angel of the Lord" appear, but almost always refers to quotes from the OT which using this phrase.

    The OT word for messenger rendered often as "angel" is mala'ak, which may refer both to human and non-human messengers from God.

    Kherubim (renders into English as "cherubs") are distinctly the super-human angelic beings, usually of a very high rank (such as the four living beings surrounding God's throne, or even the fallen cherub, Satan) nothing at all lime the fat little winged babies or cupids from early modern European artwork.

    Human messengers and angelic beings when greeted by the persons to whom God is delivering a message to refuse any form
    of worship; a very special exception is the "Angel of the LORD" or the "Captain of the Host" who I believe is the pre-incarnate Jesus.

    This entity will not refuse worship, and will direct anyone in his presence to remove their footgear as they would be standing on holy ground.
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    May 27, 2011 10:17 PM GMT
    Isn't what you're [the OP] asking about a form of Arianism, as debated in the early centuries of the church and ruled out as heresy? In other words, been there, done that. It's beating an old horse. ...though your inquiry and research is appreciated. ;-)
    I think any possible view that has been brought up about the nature of Jesus has already been brought up in history; hence, the need and the affirmation of the early creeds to address them.
  • twilight2010

    Posts: 307

    May 31, 2011 6:33 AM GMT
    the "Angel of the LORD" or the "Captain of the Host" who I believe is the pre-incarnate Jesus.

    I agree with you on this 100%

    About the heresy TerraFirma i say this

    Firstly I reject any earthly church teaching that a council has set up to promote mens beliefs system before that of Christ. I reject all creeds and all of the lies the church likes to teach.

    It is a bunch of people who have got together and they make their own laws which everyone must abide by. I will never accept any church on this planet that goes against the laws of Christ on love. Hence any church institution that his antigay is not of Christ and any church that teaches certain things are heresy I would advise a person seriously look into these matters and decide for themselves with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, yes indeed we can understand.

    Jesus said the tax collectors and prostitutes are entering heaven before the religious leaders, they make burdens on people to hard to bare. The religious leaders that preach hate and false doctrines will be punnished by our Lord.

    What was declared heresy is most likely the truth because the Vatican says its heresy that means it is right? No way, The fact of the matter is Jesus apostle paul was accused of been in a cult religion, the cult of the nazarene. The Vatican has silenced God's word for too long and they will be accountable for their leading people astray.
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    May 31, 2011 1:23 PM GMT
    What the churches get wrong is... the vast majority of biblical writings are allegorical.

    Much like the Living Word Himself spoke in parables - it takes a Spirit filled person to be able to understand it.

    The carnal mind cannot, and will not, seek after the true meaning behind the parables.

    And the non-allegorical parts are usually very direct and simple:

    "Love thy neighbour"

    "Love the Lord thy God with all..."

    ... to sum up the whole of the Law.
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    May 31, 2011 1:39 PM GMT
    alphatrigger saidWhat the churches get wrong is... the vast majority of biblical writings are allegorical.


    I think this point evades donovan entirely.
  • twilight2010

    Posts: 307

    May 31, 2011 1:50 PM GMT
    The parables are parables and are stories to explain certain events to happen with life lessons in them to.

    The scriptures are indeed inspired by the Holy Spirit and are all God's words. The Church is not a denomination, all of them have no right to exist. There should be one church one body of Christ.

    When the Bible speaks literally it is very clear. meaning it is not speaking in parables all the time. Jesus Christ had some laws to lay down Himself, the law of love.

    All the other laws hold onto the Law of love

    This topic is about if Jesus existed before virgin birth - He appeared many times in the old testament as the angel of the Lord and yes it is very true Michael is another name for our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Look at the early christians what they believed, when they got rid of the ties of the vaticanus deceptions. Matthew Henry, Spurgeon, Wesley..just to name a few.

    The church indeed does not even encourage people to read the Bible and I wonder why? This is why i left Catholism
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    May 31, 2011 2:04 PM GMT
    donovan the bible texts were written by a primitive people that believed the earth was flat. Keep that in mind when worshiping that book the way you do.

    Find what the bible says about mental illnesses. You won't. It's devils n demons (possessed). They didn't understand what Christ was doing (curing mental illness) so they wrote this:


    Mark5:1-20
    "They came to the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
    When he had come out of the boat,
    immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
    who had his dwelling in the tombs.
    Nobody could bind him any more, not even with chains,
    because he had been often bound with fetters and chains,
    and the chains had been torn apart by him, and the fetters broken in pieces.
    Nobody had the strength to tame him.
    Always, night and day, in the tombs and in the mountains,
    he was crying out, and cutting himself with stones.
    When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and bowed down to him,
    and crying out with a loud voice, he said,
    "What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God?
    I adjure you by God, don’t torment me."
    For he said to him, "Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!"
    He asked him, "What is your name?"
    He said to him, "My name is Legion, for we are many."
    He begged him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
    Now there was on the mountainside a great herd of pigs feeding.
    All the demons begged him, saying,
    "Send us into the pigs, that we may enter into them."
    At once Jesus gave them permission.
    The unclean spirits came out and entered into the pigs.
    The herd of about two thousand rushed down the steep bank into the sea,
    and they were drowned in the sea."
  • twilight2010

    Posts: 307

    May 31, 2011 2:21 PM GMT
    meninlove said donovan the bible texts were written by a primitive people that believed the earth was flat. Keep that in mind when worshiping that book the way you do.

    Find what the bible says about mental illnesses. You won't. It's devils n demons (possessed). They didn't understand what Christ was doing (curing mental illness) so they wrote this:


    Mark5:1-20
    "They came to the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
    When he had come out of the boat,
    immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
    who had his dwelling in the tombs.
    Nobody could bind him any more, not even with chains,
    because he had been often bound with fetters and chains,
    and the chains had been torn apart by him, and the fetters broken in pieces.
    Nobody had the strength to tame him.
    Always, night and day, in the tombs and in the mountains,
    he was crying out, and cutting himself with stones.
    When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and bowed down to him,
    and crying out with a loud voice, he said,
    "What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God?
    I adjure you by God, don’t torment me."
    For he said to him, "Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!"
    He asked him, "What is your name?"
    He said to him, "My name is Legion, for we are many."
    He begged him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
    Now there was on the mountainside a great herd of pigs feeding.
    All the demons begged him, saying,
    "Send us into the pigs, that we may enter into them."
    At once Jesus gave them permission.
    The unclean spirits came out and entered into the pigs.
    The herd of about two thousand rushed down the steep bank into the sea,
    and they were drowned in the sea."


    Jesus Christ is able to do anything for He has been given power and authority over all.

    Now about this scripture there are a few things we need to look at

    1) Do you not believe that this man was demon possessed?
    2) Why did Jesus send the demonds into the pigs

    firstly Jesus Christ removed the demons out this man. He was full of them. This happens to this day. The devil is real. He has his demonds doing his work. Another thing to remember that the fallen angels had sex with the woman of the earth and gave birth to giants, the nephilim. These God wiped out with the flood. We have accounts of eye witnesses of these giants in Israels time.

    It is most likely that demons fo invade and possess people, this man was not mentaly ill on his own accord, he had legion living in him, many demons. Mary Magdalen had 7 demons in her, Jesus cast them all out.

    You must remember that every knee will bow and acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord including Satan himself, after all Satan is a cherub one of the most powerful of the heavenly hosts.

    Why did Jesus send these demons into the pigs? In this biblical time there was sacrifces been done with pigs and they were sacrificed to zeus and other false Gods.

    Jesus Christ not only got rid of these demons but He destroye the false Gods sacrifices to. It was the entire heard that drown.

    We must never underestimate the power of the Lord Jesus Christ

    There are many places were Jesus removes demons from people, there are many cases of today with people been demon possessed.

    It was not Mark who wrote that but THE HOLY SPIRIT who is the AUTHOR of ALL scripture, it is God who wrote the scriptures.

    I understand He used humans to do it but it was inspired by the Holy Spirit and yes I understand there are many translation of the Bible and they are all translations, the original scriptures are in Hebrew and Greek.

    Jesus Christ is the Word of God the Bread of Life is the Word

    So if you do not EAT HIS flesh and drink His blood then no life is within.

    It is very important to ensure we all ready because the time is coming , the sky is going to open and then the Son of God will be relvealed and then it is too late for the peple who are not washed by the blood of Jesus Christ. The sins are all recorded in the Heavenly books, God will show each one why He has condemened them.
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    May 31, 2011 2:39 PM GMT

    Sorry donovan, you're a literalist, which is one of the appalling failings of some of Christ's followers.

    They thought it was devils and demons because they did not know what mental illness was. Please think this through carefully.
    They thought it took truckloads of sperm to get a woman preggers. The man was never impotent; the woman was barren.

    Do you believe god is omniscient (knows all and knows the future completely)? Important question.

  • twilight2010

    Posts: 307

    May 31, 2011 3:39 PM GMT
    God is omnipotent omniscient omnipresent
    At all times He knows everything

    I do take the Bible as Scripture inspired but not the translations we have they are just translation by human hands, the originals are indeed the work of the apostles.

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    May 31, 2011 3:52 PM GMT
    donovan1979 saidGod is omnipotent omniscient omnipresent
    At all times He knows everything

    I do take the Bible as Scripture inspired but not the translations we have they are just translation by human hands, the originals are indeed the work of the apostles.



    Alright. I believe god is omniscient, which is why I look at the bible in the way I do (as allegorical and written by not very bright people, then edited 700 years or so later by more not very bright people).
    The reason for this is god being omniscient means that (if you take the bible literally) god knew before making Adam what Adam was going to do, knew before taking a rib what Eve was going to do, making the whole casting out of Eden preordained. In other words god knew they would 'sin' before god even made the world. It also means god made Adam and Eve deliberately flawed. It also means (if you take the book literally) god knew before you were born what sins you were going to commit and what awaits you after you die.

    Now let's look at Job. God, being omniscient, knew darn well that Job loved god, and just how much. This begs the question of why god handed him over to Satan and makes god out to be childish and cruel when omnsicience is taken into consideration.
  • twilight2010

    Posts: 307

    May 31, 2011 4:10 PM GMT
    meninlove said
    donovan1979 saidGod is omnipotent omniscient omnipresent
    At all times He knows everything

    I do take the Bible as Scripture inspired but not the translations we have they are just translation by human hands, the originals are indeed the work of the apostles.



    Alright. I believe god is omniscient, which is why I look at the bible in the way I do (as allegorical and written by not very bright people, then edited 700 years or so later by more not very bright people).
    The reason for this is god being omniscient means that (if you take the bible literally) god knew before making Adam what Adam was going to do, knew before taking a rib what Eve was going to do, making the whole casting out of Eden preordained. In other words god knew they would 'sin' before god even made the world. It also means god made Adam and Eve deliberately flawed. It also means (if you take the book literally) god knew before you were born what sins you were going to commit and what awaits you after you die.

    Now let's look at Job. God, being omniscient, knew darn well that Job loved god, and just how much. This begs the question of why god handed him over to Satan and makes god out to be childish and cruel when omnsicience is taken into consideration.


    Lets look at it like this

    Yes God knows everything. Yes that includes what we do in our lives.

    People have the idea that sin started in Eden. This is not true. Sin was actually born in heaven. Yes in Heaven as lucifer rebelled against God and he been a Cherub one of the most highest angels in Gods Holy prescence chose to rebell and go against God. You see when God made the angels He made them with FREE CHOICE. So Lucifer convinced 1/3 of the Heavenly Hosts to follow Him in his war against God. You see sin was born in heaven.

    Then Lucifer was cast down to earth, Death entered the world because Satan(lucifer) tempted and prevailed. The lie the devil told that Eve would not die that she would be wise and be like God. This lie is the first lie ever told in planet earths existence. Now we have Death entering under one man who is Adam and Redemption through another called Jesus.

    Yes God indeed knows what we will do what sins we will commit but he has given us a way to purify our sins to righteousness through the blood of the Eternal Christ Jesus Sacrafice. Yes just like in the old we had lams been slaughtered and other animals - without blood been shed their was no remission of sins. This is why Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins.

    you see every little thing we do is recorded in the heavenly books? from every word, action, thought, this is how God will judge us in Heaven before the Second Coming of Jesus.

    Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
    Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 (New International Version)

    13 Now all has been heard;
    here is the conclusion of the matter:
    Fear God and keep his commandments,
    for this is the duty of all mankind.
    14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
    including every hidden thing,
    whether it is good or evil.

    these are all recorded in the heavenly books. Every little thing we do. Good and evil. Now these works will judge us but you see for Christians we are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ so that means our sins are blotted out of the books. Our name is found in the book of life.

    Yes God knows we going to sin, but he gives us free will, also not only that we know that if we do sin we have a High Priest who ministers in the Heavenly Sactuary for our Atonement of sins. We are going to be wearing the wedding garments and we are worthy.



  • twilight2010

    Posts: 307

    May 31, 2011 4:16 PM GMT
    The part with Job why God gave him over to satan?

    At this point in time Satan was still allowed to go to heaven and back to earth, this was when the morning stars sung together(Jesus and Lucifer)

    God wanted to show satan that his servant is loyal out of love, satan said take all away and then see. So God said satan can do anything but not take the life of Job.

    Job remained loyal to God and thanked him and even though he cusred the day he was born he still obeyed and remained as Gods servant.

    Then God gave him even more back

    We cannot speak for God but back then Satan was able to sit day and night and tell God this person on earth is mine as he has commited sins and the wages of sin is death so God deliver him to me.

    If you understand the most wonderful thing God ever did for us was to give His only Son Jesus Christ to die for our sins.

    We as Christians all but have to accept this
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    May 31, 2011 4:21 PM GMT

    Erm, donovan, if god is omniscient he knew before he made Lucifer exactly what Lucifer was going to do which would imply he made Lucifer flawed deliberately.
    There is no free will if the outcome is already known, as well as all events leading to said outcome.

    I believe in omniscient god, you apparently believe in omniscient bible, which doesn't speak about god being omniscient at all.
    In fact, the bible often makes god out to be rather dim-witted, which I have always found rather insulting.
    I understand, though (so can read it in context) some of the writers were trying to control people, others trying to validate themselves, and still others tried to get truth across but their efforts were greatly hampered by their grossly knowledge (primitive people and cultures) and the in-fighting that went on among the apostles, not to mention the scholars that came after and edited the texts.

    -Doug
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    May 31, 2011 4:26 PM GMT
    Herein lies the danger of the literal

    "At this point in time Satan was still allowed to go to heaven and back to earth, this was when the morning stars sung together(Jesus and Lucifer) "

    lol, AFTER satan tempted Eve and she gave in, presumably after satan became satan. So then, god allowed satan free access to heaven because....?

    (morbidly intrigued)
  • twilight2010

    Posts: 307

    May 31, 2011 4:37 PM GMT
    Why Was Satan Among the Sons of God?

    What made Satan feel like he had a right to appear among this select group? The answer is in Luke 4:5, 6: “And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him: All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I
    give it.” Satan stole the position which rightfully belonged to Adam. He usurped Adam’s throne.

    now by this truth

    You can see Satan is the prince of this world and because adam sinned he took his throne. but God did conquer him through the cross.

    Satan was allowed to enter heaven because he represented earth at the council

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    May 31, 2011 7:15 PM GMT
    As an aside, I do not believe that the archangel Michael is the pre-incarnate Christ (as he appears later in the NT in a subordinate role
    to Christ).

    He may however possess the powers of a vicegerent of God, that is, as one of the great princes (this prince being an euphemism for a ruling archangel, in like manner to Lucifer/Satan being a great prince of the same order of created angel or Kherub, the "prince of the powers (powers being a somewhat lower order of angelic being, possibly
    seraphim and others) of the air".

    Mi'kha'el is translated as "who is like God?" using the form of "el", the singular of "elohoim", in much the same as we use the word "god(s)" to refer to generic deities.

    YHWH-God is especially protective of His name, and it is noteworthy that Jesus (also: Joshua) is the Romanized form of the Hebrew Yeho'shua or YHWH'shua, meaning "YHWH saves".

    YHWH is preserved into English in the word Jehovah, although it's proper pronunciation is probably closer to "YeHoWa"

    ... more later, on the road now.
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    May 31, 2011 7:41 PM GMT
    May one ask: did anyone ever see the long form Birth Certificate of Jesus?

    Who was his father?
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    May 31, 2011 7:49 PM GMT
    True_blue_aussie saidMay one ask: did anyone ever see the long form Birth Certificate of Jesus?

    Who was his father?


    One has an answer - God the Son is the only begotten son of God the Father, by God he Holy Spirit.

    His adoptive father was Joseph of a line tracing back to King David of Israel.

    That's if you care to believe in the narrative about Him.
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    May 31, 2011 7:55 PM GMT
    donovan1979 saidWhy Was Satan Among the Sons of God?

    What made Satan feel like he had a right to appear among this select group? The answer is in Luke 4:5, 6: “And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him: All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I
    give it.” Satan stole the position which rightfully belonged to Adam. He usurped Adam’s throne.

    now by this truth

    You can see Satan is the prince of this world and because adam sinned he took his throne. but God did conquer him through the cross.

    Satan was allowed to enter heaven because he represented earth at the council




    Well, you're certainly explaining the primitiveness of literal christianity. What you're describing is plain old mortal human behaviours.
    Satan I don't believe in, as humans are quite capable of far worse and conveniently invented old scratch to blame for their own shortcomings.



    He usurped Adam's throne, and god was powerless to stop this from happening. So much for omniscience.


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    May 31, 2011 8:07 PM GMT
    Other thoughts -

    God is omniscient (all knowing), omnipresent (everywhere simultaneously), and omnipotent (all-powerful) and holy (does not possess any impurity or evil in Him).

    God created the universe and the world and humanity (not getting into the evolution argument here, however you wish to view the exact circumstances
    of our arrival here is not germane to the discussion) and initially, it is called "good".

    Remember that this is a perfect and holy being who does not lie, describing His creation as "good", and humanity as "very good".

    He creates us, but also endows us with free will. This is one quality that seems to separate us from animals and other life, having a total free will (whereas animals have a partial will, but are mostly driven by instinct, and arguably, lower orders of life have only instinct and genetic coding to dictate their activities).

    God could have easily created automatons in His image; but He chose to impart free will just as God has (God has a free will as well, but His exercise of it is always Holy and Just, and without sin).

    At some point, humankind, as personified by Adam and Eve, turn their back on God's plan for them (to have perfect communion with their creator) and to try and do things their own way (typified by listening to the Devil's lies about the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil).

    Proverbs 14:12 (KJV) There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.


    It is this spiritual (followed by physical) death that necessitated intervention by the Creator on our behalf.
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    May 31, 2011 8:29 PM GMT
    If god did not know whether or not you would go to heaven or not because of your free will, god would not be omniscient.

    You guys make god sound like a rather petty tyrant, which god is not. In fact these tales resemble more Roman or Egyptian empire shenanigans than anything else.

    I suppose the next thing will be this:
    Genesis 3:16: To the woman he said,"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children.Your desire will be for your husband,and he will rule over you."


    Well? Some animals go through a great deal of pain giving birth and some die of it. Same as people.

    As for the sentence after that, well, Eve was created to be Adam's companion in the first place.