For the so-called gay "community". Cut the crap.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 11, 2008 11:32 AM GMT
    I'm almost touched by the attention mainstream media, politicians, and well-meaning factions have lavished upon gay issues. "Equality. Freedom. Exposure." As empowering as these rallying buzzwords appear, I feel they not only illuminate the ambiguities at hand, but also the ugly underbelly of this fallacy of a civil rights movement.

    In my humble, marginalized opinion, nothing will change until gay people can extricate their egos from the shallow pull of monetary independence, cheap thrills, and the mirror. In my experience, the rise of the so-called "gay community" is one of the single most unprogressive, racist, sexist, and fascist institutions to emerge in the last 40 years. Gay people are no more united by fairness and lofty principles than an average bus of morning commuters on their respective paths to the daily grind…AKA, real life.

    I find myself equally appalled today as when I deigned to take my first steps into “our” rainbow coloured world of greed, materialism, vanity, self-destruction, vice, and kumbaya lies 10 years ago. Open any print offering from the gay media and you're instantly confronted with the same Aryan nightmare that pervades and suppresses everything else. Very rarely have I encountered room (outside of pity, tokens, or sexual predation) for ethnic minorities, disabled people, the aged, those traditionally deemed 'boring', or even women.

    Perhaps I’m not as cultured, insightful, or well traveled as many of you advocates of blind liberty, but in my experiences in America, the UK, Germany, France, and Belgium, I’ve found there is no gay street with a gay post office next to the gay grocery store where you can buy gay wares for your gay house. As far as I can tell it’s a 14 year old white boys club with no interest in sharing resources, ideas, real emotion, power or otherwise. I’m sure I sound bitter, but I’d like to believe I have far too many interests and inner resources to become negatively transfixed by these unregulated injustices. But as a multi-national dues payer and fellow dude who likes dudes, I feel it my civic duty to call a spade…

    By the way, my skin is not chocolate, caramel, sugar or any other soothing euphemisms to ease your cultural distaste.

    Jason
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    Apr 11, 2008 11:35 AM GMT
    You must realise that it is still a White Man's World.

    Everything else is lip service. Big business is run by white men, government is run by white men. Why would the "gay" world be any different?
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    Apr 11, 2008 1:28 PM GMT
    jray
    In my humble, marginalized opinion, nothing will change until gay people can extricate their egos from the shallow pull of monetary independence, cheap thrills, and the mirror. In my experience, the rise of the so-called "gay community" is one of the single most unprogressive, racist, sexist, and fascist institutions to emerge in the last 40 years.


    Well then... HELP IN CHANGING IT, DAMMIT! icon_razz.gif

    Being jaded and cynical about it isn't going to change things.

    We are still only 5-10% of the Population and scattered. I wouldn't be surprised at the lack of any cohesion.

    Hehe. The Gay Agenda of the news stories is a myth.

    I'm of an ethnic minority myself - arguably the most downtrodden of the lot, LOL. But by damn, I won't let that affect me. Don't worry I'm planning to annihilate every white man in the world!



    NOT. icon_razz.gif It's their prerogative to wake up. Not ours to force ourselves where we're not wanted.

    jrayGay people are no more united by fairness and lofty principles than an average bus of morning commuters on their respective paths to the daily grind…AKA, real life.


    I too expected gay people to be more... reflective of my idealistic expectations. But I guess, the part where we are only human always comes first.

    I dunno about you, but I'm seeing the younger gay generation to be more... aware of larger matters than the next hookup. This isn't the sex-crazed eighties anymore.
  • ShawnTX

    Posts: 2484

    Apr 11, 2008 2:45 PM GMT
    And what are you going to do about it, apart from whining on a message board?

    I've said this before; I don't do the whole 'gay brotherhood' thing, so to expect all gay people to come together and love each other just becasue we're gay is a ridiculous notion. I don't mentally connect with people who's single most important thing in their life is partying, drinking, and doing drugs, so I don't hang out with those types of people. I don't connect with people that play the victim, living in a world with a poor me attitude, expecting everyone to pander to their ego just because they're a victim...the poor dears. So I don't hang out with those types of people either. Are you suggesting I should, just because they happen to be gay?

    I don't quite understand what point you're trying to make with this statement:

    Perhaps I’m not as cultured, insightful, or well traveled as many of you advocates of blind liberty, but in my experiences in America, the UK, Germany, France, and Belgium, I’ve found there is no gay street with a gay post office next to the gay grocery store where you can buy gay wares for your gay house.

    It's no secret that the gay community is dominanted by white men, and just like in any other segment of the population, there will be those individuals who actively shun those that don't fit thier 'ideal' image. That can be related to skin colour, body type, style, etc. etc. So, to lump all non-black gay men into one category of dominant, racist fascists is not only weak, but terribly childish...coming from a poor me, I'm such a victim, attitude.

    This is the first post of yours that I've noticed. If we were to correlate this rant to real life, if you walked up to me and this rant was the first thing out of your mouth, I would roll my eyes, chuckle, and walk away. No one ever said the gay community was a utopia of love and acceptance. Many gay people, both men and women, are so emotionally and psychologically damaged due to their perosnal coming-out process, that you can hardly expect them to be cognizant of every other gay person's psychological issues when they're dealing with thier own issues. Again, it goes back to the whole 'gay brotherhood' thing. Why should they deal with your shit when they have their own shit to work through. And what makes you think their obligated to anyways? Just because their gay? Hardly.

    Your last statement is very telling:

    By the way, my skin is not chocolate, caramel, sugar or any other soothing euphemisms to ease your cultural distaste.

    It's obvious you're the one that has issues with your skin colour. You open with a rant, and close with a sweeping generalization about the membership of RJ and how they view you and your skin colour. Your last statement wasn't provoked by a response from someone else. Your unease with your own skin colour provoked the response. Quite often we transfer onto others that which we don't like about ourselves when we look in a mirror.




  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 11, 2008 3:54 PM GMT
    you know, both sides to this debate have valid points...

    yes, jray is correct in saying the gay "community" is racist and dominated by aryan ideals of beauty, and that it is festering with egocentricism and self-destructive behavior...

    however, it is also true that our community is diluted and traumatized. one must find one's own way first (sorry for my lapse into australian). people can have so much baggage just from trying to survive. it doesn't help that our identity is based upon, and thus often centralized around, sex.

    jray has every right to vent, and shawn has every right to counter. what i think can be beneficial is to realize that the civil rights movement for blacks was a process that took 150 years, not 40 as many would claim. since the end of the civil war and slavery blacks have been toiling toward equality. it began truly achieving its goals 40 or 50 years ago. it's unrealistic to expect the lgbt community to be mature when it's even younger than the civil rights movement for women and blacks.

    our community has alot of growing to do, and it will happen, but what i think we're recognizing on both sides of this issue (racism vis a vis trauma) is that we're having growing pains. i have faith that as lgbt people have more and more positive role models we will act more and more like the well-adjusted and compassionate people many of us are aspiring to be.
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    Apr 11, 2008 3:56 PM GMT
    Jray - Seems you are having a moment of frustration and feel like venting out but, you took it to far!!!

    Redheadguy- Shame on you for falling for this

    When will this Black and white race shit end!!!


    I remember someone saying Can we all get along!!!
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    Apr 11, 2008 4:00 PM GMT
    kozmeka - i don't think either side has gone too far... the race shit isn't going to end until an on-going, long term, above boards discussion occurs on a wider scale than it has. it's not so simple an issue to simply discard the black/white matrix in the united states.

    "can't we all just get along" is a gross oversimplification. no, we can't. not until we finally go through the long, arduous process of venting frustrations without fear of rerimand, get all our complaints on the table, and then discuss them with a degree of cultural maturity that we haven't developed in this country.

    we're only 232 years old. it'll happen. but it's not so simple an issue as singing kumbaya.
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    Apr 11, 2008 4:01 PM GMT
    From my perspective iray I have always separated human rights from human behaviour. Gays should have the same rights as straights in terms of free from discrimination in terms of work, housing, benefits, marital status, etc..

    That does not mean that individual gay people will not exhibit the same flaws as their straight peers. Yes some gays will be racist, sexist, ageist, etc.. And yes the mainstream gay community can seem consumed by materialism, greed, and focused on white people. The same criticisms can be levied at the straight community in North America and Europe. That does not mean the gay movements demands for equal rights is any less compelling. One comparison I could make is the passage of the Civil Rights Laws in the USA in the 1960's. Overnight did all african-american men become less sexist? Probably not.

    Finally your concern of the Aryan nightmare as you term it I find a bit of an exaggeration. Although perhaps not as much as we would like, men of other "races" are appearing more and more in the gay media. I think it is worth remembering that the gay liberation movement started in the USA in the 1960's. The society at that time was dominated by white males. If the gay liberation movement had started in Japan or Africa it would have likely had a very different face.
  • Muunrakur

    Posts: 169

    Apr 11, 2008 4:05 PM GMT
    Surround yourself with better people is all I can think to say.

    The world you describe sounds like the one I encountered when I came out at 17 (14 long years ago) and was all about the gay ghetto, the clubs and all that crap. Running with drag queens and fashionistas and kids who had NO ambition aside from acquiring the latest CDs or clothes...

    Within a few short years I was having fantastic group dinners with people of varying educations and accomplishments; men, women, professors, entrepreneurs, factory workers (at least 2 that I remember) and a fisherman.. all gay, NOT all white... life has been great.

    Now we live in SF and we're trying to make as wide a variety of friends. Some of the frustration is back, because the community that we're seeing is pretty shallow and pale, but I know the people we're looking for are out there and our place at the table is waiting for us.
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    Apr 11, 2008 4:16 PM GMT
    So you moved back to Hackney Jason from Sunny Florida what happened there to make you so Bitter?
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Apr 11, 2008 4:23 PM GMT
    jray said
    Very rarely have I encountered room (outside of pity, tokens, or sexual predation) for ethnic minorities, disabled people, the aged, those traditionally deemed 'boring', or even women.


    While I agree with some of your post, I do disagree with your accusations of racism and sexism. Our community has made sizable inroads over the last decade that are especially evident among younger generations. Change doesn't happen overnight, and there's still work to be done, but we're in a much better place than we were when I went to my first pride celebration at 15.

    I seriously don't get the accusation of sexism at all. Do you expect gay publications to run ads with women in them? I don't understand how that's going to accomplish the underlying goal of marketing to gays? And no pride celebration would be complete without the hags nudging us on, laughing at us crazy queers.

    The truth is that pointing to the "gay media" is a very poor way of trying to stereotype our community. That media is interested only in being successful, and building a brand. Its no different than the straight media in that it only puts forth the "beautiful" people.

    I feel very bad for some members of our community who have been left by the sidelines - the sick and the elderly, and even guys who are middle aged. But its unfair to believe that the community is not working to solve these problems.



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    Apr 11, 2008 4:46 PM GMT
    dancerjack saidkozmeka - i don't think either side has gone too far... the race shit isn't going to end until an on-going, long term, above boards discussion occurs on a wider scale than it has. it's not so simple an issue to simply discard the black/white matrix in the united states.

    "can't we all just get along" is a gross oversimplification. no, we can't. not until we finally go through the long, arduous process of venting frustrations without fear of rerimand, get all our complaints on the table, and then discuss them with a degree of cultural maturity that we haven't developed in this country.

    we're only 232 years old. it'll happen. but it's not so simple an issue as singing kumbaya.


    I have faith for a better world and this gay bash, race, ethnicity, sexualisum has to stop! Im not trying to get under no ones skin and since when being optimistic is a bad thing. I tend to focus on the brighter side of things as focusing on the bad just makes your life miserable.

    Now realistically speaking, there is lots of bad shit happening as we speak but, what can we do?

    I respect your opinion and I hope you respect mine!
  • auryn

    Posts: 2061

    Apr 11, 2008 4:51 PM GMT
    styrgan said[quote][cite]jray said[/cite]
    Very rarely have I encountered room (outside of pity, tokens, or sexual predation) for ethnic minorities, disabled people, the aged, those traditionally deemed 'boring', or even women.


    [quote]While I agree with some of your post, I do disagree with your accusations of racism and sexism. Our community has made sizable inroads over the last decade that are especially evident among younger generations. Change doesn't happen overnight, and there's still work to be done, but we're in a much better place than we were when I went to my first pride celebration at 15.

    I seriously don't get the accusation of sexism at all. Do you expect gay publications to run ads with women in them? I don't understand how that's going to accomplish the underlying goal of marketing to gays? And no pride celebration would be complete without the hags nudging us on, laughing at us crazy queers.

    The truth is that pointing to the "gay media" is a very poor way of trying to stereotype our community. That media is interested only in being successful, and building a brand. Its no different than the straight media in that it only puts forth the "beautiful" people.

    I feel very bad for some members of our community who have been left by the sidelines - the sick and the elderly, and even guys who are middle aged. But its unfair to believe that the community is not working to solve these problems.
    [/quote]

    *Auryn sits back eating popcorn and waiting for the carnage. Middle-aged left by the waysides. lol. Kids do say the darndest things. icon_biggrin.gif*
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    Apr 11, 2008 4:59 PM GMT
    MMMMMMM. I don't see the Aryan thing going on. Where I am, everything is mixed. The bars and clubs and everything else would not be the same fun if it were segregated according to race.

    The mix of people is what makes life interesting.
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    Apr 11, 2008 5:02 PM GMT
    KissingPro saidMMMMMMM. I don't see the Aryan thing going on. Where I am, everything is mixed. The bars and clubs and everything else would not be the same fun if it were segregated according to race.

    The mix of people is what makes life interesting.


    Well said!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 11, 2008 5:08 PM GMT

    Every community is a work in progress and every community has it's share of problems. Even the Asian Schoolgirl community, but they are working it out.



  • auryn

    Posts: 2061

    Apr 11, 2008 5:23 PM GMT
    I find it interesting that you find the same problems in London as many do in the States.

    I do hope a dialog is opened up at some point so we can get beyond this. Until then I'll surround myself with people who like me inspite of my foibles while occasionally venturing into the worlds dominated by shallow people. I have my moments of being like those I can't stand. It helps to know that I'm as good as they are as bad as I am.

    sigh. I guess it's true that all we are is dust in the wind.
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    Apr 11, 2008 5:32 PM GMT
    Is there more homophobia in the Black community? I am wondering if the White "domination" of the gay community might be influenced by greater homophobia in the Black community, so Black gays don't come out and participate as openly as their White counterparts.

    This is just a thought, so dont bite my head off.
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Apr 11, 2008 5:54 PM GMT
    auryn:

    Sidelines. Not waysides.

    Let's face it. The gay community is always projecting a more youthful image.
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    Apr 11, 2008 5:59 PM GMT
    Caslon saidIs there more homophobia in the Black community? I am wondering if the White "domination" of the gay community might be influenced by greater homophobia in the Black community, so Black gays don't come out and participate as openly as their White counterparts.

    This is just a thought, so dont bite my head off.


    agreed 100%; glad someboday decided to look at it from a more sociological POV instead of simple race issues
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    Apr 11, 2008 6:02 PM GMT
    Caslon, I don't think jray is saying that he finds it hard as a black man to come out, he is saying that as a black man he feels marginalized by the gay community as a whole. Its true that a greater participation by minority groups would make an impact in the way minorities are viewed in the gay community however what he is trying to say is he does not feel welcomed by the overall gay community which is a different issue. It sort of a "double wammy". And let me make it clear since a lot of people tend to get defensive when this subject comes up. Racism STILL EXISTS! Its unconscious and to a degree self deceptive. There is no such thing as "color blind". We need to embrace the fact we are all different and come from different cultures but be aware that as a whole, not necessarily at an individual level, have to understand that some groups do get marginalized. No one is saying that you as an individual are racist, just be aware that certain groups as a whole have a tendency to suppress others consciously or unconsciously. You may not have anything to do with it directly, but with certain privileges come certain payoffs which tip the balance in the favor of some groups and consequently disfavor of other groups. No one is saying "you are bad" or that "you are at fault" or even that "the particular group you belong to is doing something bad on purpose and its a big conspiracy", the message is just "please be aware that some groups do in fact get marginalized and need to be accommodated on a conscious level because unconsciously some groups aren't doing so hot." Savy?
  • auryn

    Posts: 2061

    Apr 11, 2008 6:03 PM GMT
    Caslon saidIs there more homophobia in the Black community? I am wondering if the White "domination" of the gay community might be influenced by greater homophobia in the Black community, so Black gays don't come out and participate as openly as their White counterparts.

    This is just a thought, so dont bite my head off.


    Interesting question.

    I mean, sure we don't have the Phelpses or the KKK or other groups that are as outwardly nasty. In my experience the Black community is more accepting of its gays as long as their not the overtly flamy types. Even when I grew up in a predominately gay area of Seattle, it was more acceptable to see a White guy flame out more than it was for a Black guy.

    Grant it, we do hear from the matriarchs of our community that tell us that there is a shortage of Black men, so they wish we wouldn't be gay or date outside of our race in order to keep the genetics as close to dark as possible. But most get over it since they know that everyone has to live his own life.

    My favorite cousin, upon learning that I was gay, told me that if more gay men acted like I do (and I don't consider myself to be butch by any stretch) then she wouldn't have as much trouble with accepting gay men. By the end of that visit, she became very accepting of gay people and we talked very openly about good times with men and problems with men like sisters.
  • vindog

    Posts: 1440

    Apr 11, 2008 6:06 PM GMT
    I have more in common with djs, hippies, burners and general freaks than I do the gay community......

    "They" don't get me, and I am fine with that.
  • auryn

    Posts: 2061

    Apr 11, 2008 6:08 PM GMT
    styrgan saidauryn:

    Sidelines. Not waysides.

    Let's face it. The gay community is always projecting a more youthful image.


    Mea culpa!

    Gay or straight, youth is always shown as beautiful and acceptable. Just don't forget, we'll all get old; that is unless we run into a vampire that turns us so that we can be forever young. I'd choose Spike from Buffy as my Sire, if I could.
  • styrgan

    Posts: 2017

    Apr 11, 2008 6:18 PM GMT
    auryn:

    Apology accepted... I guess icon_biggrin.gif

    Yes you're right about youth. But how many ads target straight women with a gorgegous, refined, Clooney-like male? Do you think that ads that target gays focus on the same type of man?