Whey Protein or just eating

  • OklahomaBreak...

    Posts: 167

    May 31, 2011 4:21 AM GMT
    If you have a diet of lean meat like chicken for most meals do you really need whey protein? Never used it, but I know a lot of guys do.
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    May 31, 2011 11:56 AM GMT
    I think that drinking a whey protein shake with in 30 minutes of your last set helps muscle recovery/build muscle. Eating protein-rich food is also good but you can't digest and absorb the protein as fast so the benefit is diminished somewhat.

    Any nutritionists/experts out there please feel free to correct me on this.
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    May 31, 2011 12:55 PM GMT
    It's also a popular way to add calories to a diet without too much satiety. 50-60 grams of whey in water has almost left the stomach after 1 hour and is so easily digested that the blood levels of amino acids (what protein is composed of) have pretty much returned to normal after 3 hours. Real food on the other hand gives you a slower, continuous release of amino acids into your blood stream.

    Kinda hard to tell from your 30 word post whether you need extra protein. But remember that there's more to life than chicken. There's duck, turkey (mmm drum sticks), game, venison, boar, pork, beef, and bison. Probably a lot more that I forgot.
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    May 31, 2011 12:57 PM GMT
    My observation over the past few weeks has been that eating real food protein makes me feel full for longer, as opposed to the shakes. I liked the convenience of the shake for hitting protein goals for the day, but it wasn’t worth it when I was left with hunger pangs only 15-20 minutes later.
  • tuffguyndc

    Posts: 4437

    May 31, 2011 12:59 PM GMT
    taking protein is a very necessary process. unfortunately the other poster was right. because you have such a small window to repair damage muscle than you have to take a protein shake to get it in.
  • calibro

    Posts: 8888

    May 31, 2011 3:10 PM GMT
    i think food is better because you're getting more than just protein (regardless of your goals, it's not just about protein), but a protein shake is a convenient way to supplement your diet, ergo why it's called a supplement.
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    May 31, 2011 4:42 PM GMT
    I don't know the details of the physiology, but I'll pass on what my trainer has said. He is 58, was a competition bodybuilder for 25 years, and majored in Exercise Science.

    He told me to eat within 15 minutes after every workout. He told me that if I can't eat, to at least keep a protein bar in the locker and eat it as soon as I get to the locker, before a steam, whirlpool, shower, whatever.

    The other thing he told me is that all protein supplements such as the protein bar, shakes, etc.. are nothing more than a band-aid if you can't eat within that 15 minute window. He said nothing can replace a meal, hence, the band-aids.

    I've been taking his advice. When I finish my workout and cardio, I eat my protein bar, shower, sit in the whirlpool, shower, and then stop and get a meal on my way home.
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    May 31, 2011 4:55 PM GMT
    Whey is good for the first meal after you wake up and right after a workout becaus it is digested more quickly than many other proteins. At night, cottage cheese can be a good choice because the protein is absorbed slowly while you sleep.
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    May 31, 2011 4:56 PM GMT
    theres protein from other sources

    im a huge huge huge fan of the vega line:

    VegaSportPerformanceProtein.jpg


    *cue the reply posts that say this tastes like shit*


    i had dinner with one of the formulators from genuine health (they make all the greens+ products) and he said its really important to rotate your protein sources... like exercise, your body does get used to the same stuff you put in your body.

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    May 31, 2011 5:35 PM GMT
    "Whey Protein or just food?"

    Of course food. This is a no brainer. Supplements should be the last thing to consider, or not consider at all.

    In addition, do not worry about a time frame after a workout to repair damage.

    There is no prof of a such time window of 30 minutes or whatever.
    It's just marketing by the supplement companies. The human body does not function like that.



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    May 31, 2011 5:52 PM GMT
    van_can said"Whey Protein or just food?"

    Of course food. This is a no brainer. Supplements should be the last thing to consider, or not consider at all.

    In addition, do not worry about a time frame after a workout to repair damage.

    There is no prof of a such time window of 30 minutes or whatever.
    It's just marketing by the supplement companies. The human body does not function like that.






    of course there is an anabolic window!

    try hitting the gym and not eating for hours after. the result= cortisol spikes. body eats muscle and stores fat.
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    May 31, 2011 6:39 PM GMT
    tinymike said
    van_can said"Whey Protein or just food?"

    Of course food. This is a no brainer. Supplements should be the last thing to consider, or not consider at all.

    In addition, do not worry about a time frame after a workout to repair damage.

    There is no prof of a such time window of 30 minutes or whatever.
    It's just marketing by the supplement companies. The human body does not function like that.






    of course there is an anabolic window!

    try hitting the gym and not eating for hours after. the result= cortisol spikes. body eats muscle and stores fat.


    One needs to eat of course, but is not 30 minutes or 2 hours for that matter.

    I wasn't sure if i wanted to reply to your post since your vega line post sounded like a commercial.

    I'm not even going to get into cortisol debate right now as it's another matter all together.

    OklahomaBreakdown you have more than enough time to eat anything you want and have the nutrients get to your body in time.

    Eat a banana, eat some meat, or drink some milk.

    The human body doesn't function like a bomb timer!


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    May 31, 2011 6:39 PM GMT
    tinymike said
    van_can said"Whey Protein or just food?"

    Of course food. This is a no brainer. Supplements should be the last thing to consider, or not consider at all.

    In addition, do not worry about a time frame after a workout to repair damage.

    There is no prof of a such time window of 30 minutes or whatever.
    It's just marketing by the supplement companies. The human body does not function like that.






    of course there is an anabolic window!

    try hitting the gym and not eating for hours after. the result= cortisol spikes. body eats muscle and stores fat.


    Eat muscle : yes, store fat, no.

    I'm no expert, but actine/myosine production as a result to muscular stress is supposed to be a process lasting a few day, not taking place in half an hour.

    the only sure thing is that if the workout is intense enough to deplete both muscular an liver reserve in glycogene, body will will produce energy out of fat (slow process) and out of amino acids otherwise used for protein building, neutralizing in part the benefit of muscular stress induced muscle grow.

    So you should eat after intense workout, but I don't think eating proteins rather than glucids has any impact on muscle protein building.
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    May 31, 2011 10:40 PM GMT
    I study this stuff in school--BS nutritional sciences, BS kinesiology, 2 years into masters in exercise physiology, 1 class away from being eligible to intern to become a registered dietitian.

    No whey protein is not necessary. Protein is protein and even if you have lower quality protein or higher quality protein, the fact that you ate something is the limiting factor, not the type of protein.

    The supplement industry is run by marketing people, not scientists and dietitians. You do not need whey protein as they say. It's very expensive. Poor countries produce some of the best athletes.

    Yes there is a 2 hour window during which your muscle glycogen can be replenished twice as fast. Two hours after the 2 hour window it is still replaced 1.5 times as fast. While both pure carbohydrate and pure protein administration post exercise help to increase glycogen stores, the combination has a synergistic effect to replace glycogen, or stored sugar energy in your muscle, faster. Basically speaking and my interpretation of this is: if your muscles are warm, they are more metabolically active and can accept more nutrients while the blood is there before you go back to sitting at your computer or watching TV, when they become cool/cold again.

    This isn't a big deal for 95% of the population. It's only a factor for people who exercise every day intensely for long periods. I work out everyday for about an hour to 1.25 hrs and only have a banana on the way home, then have some chocolate milk while I'm preparing dinner, which is ready within 45 min. I still make my 2 hr window and spend nothing on supplements. If you workout every other day, don't break your back about 'sports nutrition.' Eating healthy meals regularly throughout the day, modeling them after Mypyramid.org, will give you the results you want.

    Furthermore, weight lifting is not a glycogen-depleting exercise. You do not 'hit the wall' as runners do after the 17th mile or so.

    50-60g of whey, as someone posted in this thread, is WAY too much protein in one sitting...that's enough for some people in a whole day. Your body will absorb that whey protein super fast through your intestines, deaminate it (remove the chemical group that makes it protein making it resemble fat), pee out that nitrogen, and store the calories as fat and carbohydrate. It won't magically incorporate it into you muscles and make you "swoll." The swoll is nothing more than blood being in your muscles.

    I'll stop here.
  • OklahomaBreak...

    Posts: 167

    Jun 01, 2011 2:37 AM GMT
    Thanks for the help guys. I think for now I'll stick to the eating after workout routine and if that peaks then I'll try some of the whey suggestions.
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    Jun 01, 2011 8:58 PM GMT
    I think there's a lot of "thinking" going on...nobody knows for sure.
    All I know is that it's been almost a year since I've done protein shakes, and I still reached my goal (7% bodyfat)...not to mention added a good amount of muscle, too.
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    Jun 01, 2011 9:25 PM GMT
    bluey2223 saidI study this stuff in school--BS nutritional sciences, BS kinesiology, 2 years into masters in exercise physiology, 1 class away from being eligible to intern to become a registered dietitian.

    No whey protein is not necessary. Protein is protein and even if you have lower quality protein or higher quality protein, the fact that you ate something is the limiting factor, not the type of protein.

    The supplement industry is run by marketing people, not scientists and dietitians. You do not need whey protein as they say. It's very expensive. Poor countries produce some of the best athletes.

    Yes there is a 2 hour window during which your muscle glycogen can be replenished twice as fast. Two hours after the 2 hour window it is still replaced 1.5 times as fast. While both pure carbohydrate and pure protein administration post exercise help to increase glycogen stores, the combination has a synergistic effect to replace glycogen, or stored sugar energy in your muscle, faster. Basically speaking and my interpretation of this is: if your muscles are warm, they are more metabolically active and can accept more nutrients while the blood is there before you go back to sitting at your computer or watching TV, when they become cool/cold again.

    This isn't a big deal for 95% of the population. It's only a factor for people who exercise every day intensely for long periods. I work out everyday for about an hour to 1.25 hrs and only have a banana on the way home, then have some chocolate milk while I'm preparing dinner, which is ready within 45 min. I still make my 2 hr window and spend nothing on supplements. If you workout every other day, don't break your back about 'sports nutrition.' Eating healthy meals regularly throughout the day, modeling them after Mypyramid.org, will give you the results you want.

    Furthermore, weight lifting is not a glycogen-depleting exercise. You do not 'hit the wall' as runners do after the 17th mile or so.

    50-60g of whey, as someone posted in this thread, is WAY too much protein in one sitting...that's enough for some people in a whole day. Your body will absorb that whey protein super fast through your intestines, deaminate it (remove the chemical group that makes it protein making it resemble fat), pee out that nitrogen, and store the calories as fat and carbohydrate. It won't magically incorporate it into you muscles and make you "swoll." The swoll is nothing more than blood being in your muscles.

    I'll stop here.


    It makes perfect sense ...from a marketing point of view, I am referring to the huge amounts of protein they say we "need". The logic here is that to get to those amounts like 1,5g to 2 g per LB of bodyweight they promote, we need the protein supplements, thus depending on them!

    It's pretty hard if not impossible for a 150lb person the get 225g to 300g of protein from food daily, for example. But as you pointed out the body doesn't not need that much protein, cant digest that much and it ends up being just expensive fat!



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    Jun 01, 2011 9:46 PM GMT
    "Food or supplement" over simplifies the nutritional needs that the OP may have. He didn't say how much chicken he was eating or if more was affordable. He also didn't give you his macros or what kind of a regimen he is undergoing.


    I agree, chicken is a fantastic no-brainer, but unilaterally endorsing "real food" without even considering the benefits the OP may have with well thought out supplementation isn't fair. Whey is a very inexpensive way to quickly add 25-50g protein to a diet that may not be protein rich otherwise. I have a hard time eating enough food to gain weight, and have found that adding an easy to drink shake DOES help me reach my goals that were previously unattainable, even with a square diet.

    Further, while the supp industry is full of snake oil salesmen, the latest "food pyramid" was heavily influenced by "governmental consultants" of various food industries. The day I see the FDA discourage partially hydrogenated garbage, refined grains, corn corn corn and more corn, and HFCS, I'll sign up for what they have to say.
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    Jun 02, 2011 3:13 AM GMT
    Ravco said"Food or supplement" over simplifies the nutritional needs that the OP may have. He didn't say how much chicken he was eating or if more was affordable. He also didn't give you his macros or what kind of a regimen he is undergoing.


    I agree, chicken is a fantastic no-brainer, but unilaterally endorsing "real food" without even considering the benefits the OP may have with well thought out supplementation isn't fair. Whey is a very inexpensive way to quickly add 25-50g protein to a diet that may not be protein rich otherwise. I have a hard time eating enough food to gain weight, and have found that adding an easy to drink shake DOES help me reach my goals that were previously unattainable, even with a square diet.

    Further, while the supp industry is full of snake oil salesmen, the latest "food pyramid" was heavily influenced by "governmental consultants" of various food industries. The day I see the FDA discourage partially hydrogenated garbage, refined grains, corn corn corn and more corn, and HFCS, I'll sign up for what they have to say.


    They already tell you to avoid partially hydrogenated oils, refined grains (make at least half your grains whole, preferably more), and nutrition Ph.D. RDs are part of the American Dietetic Association and it is not all influenced by food industries. That's why we are trained to sort the bullshit from the real. You downplay how much education we have in nutrition. Please take a look at the Dietary Guidelines for Americans 2010. It's actually a very, very long document to read. I doubt you read it, because even the professionals often just read the summary.

    To the poster above the above, it is also been a mistranslation/myth about the 1.5g/lb and 2.0g/lb. The pound (lb) is not used in any nutrition science; the kilogram (kg) is instead. Those amounts are 1.5g to 1.7g per kg if you are beginning an exercise program that includes much muscle breakdown and rebuilding. Team sports (division 1), and endurance sports (division 1) are even less than that, ie 1.2-1.5g per KILOGRAM. One kg = 2.2 lbs, so that's about 0.7g of protein per lb if you want to look at it that way.

    It probably was the unscientific marketing people who also started the per pound myth, making poor kids think they're not getting enough protein. Most Americans get plenty of protein everyday without supplementation, which is why I can make such a blanket statement without giving him a specific dietary consultation. I merely answered the question without giving him an assessment, which is all he should expect from a forum post. I can't be expected to hop through the cyberspace and interview him and look at his body language, analyze his feelings and emotions...
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    Jun 02, 2011 4:39 PM GMT
    @ bluey2223

    I certainly am not downplaying your education whatsoever. In fact, I think it's awesome that there are people like you on RJ to help others out and give sound advise instead of "bro science". If you read my post though, you will not see any endorsement of the 1.5g protein per pound nonsense either. I may not have the nutritional accreditation that you have, but I have studied quite extensively on my on behalf and was doing my best to help the OP out with the same limited information that he gave you.
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    Jun 02, 2011 4:55 PM GMT
    Ravco said@ bluey2223

    I certainly am not downplaying your education whatsoever. In fact, I think it's awesome that there are people like you on RJ to help others out and give sound advise instead of "bro science". If you read my post though, you will not see any endorsement of the 1.5g protein per pound nonsense either. I may not have the nutritional accreditation that you have, but I have studied quite extensively on my on behalf and was doing my best to help the OP out with the same limited information that he gave you.


    Certainly. I was responding to both you and van_can icon_smile.gif
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    Jun 03, 2011 12:40 AM GMT
    It's an "AND", not an "OR".
  • OklahomaBreak...

    Posts: 167

    Jun 20, 2011 5:29 PM GMT
    bluey2223 said
    Ravco said"Food or supplement" over simplifies the nutritional needs that the OP may have. He didn't say how much chicken he was eating or if more was affordable. He also didn't give you his macros or what kind of a regimen he is undergoing.


    I agree, chicken is a fantastic no-brainer, but unilaterally endorsing "real food" without even considering the benefits the OP may have with well thought out supplementation isn't fair. Whey is a very inexpensive way to quickly add 25-50g protein to a diet that may not be protein rich otherwise. I have a hard time eating enough food to gain weight, and have found that adding an easy to drink shake DOES help me reach my goals that were previously unattainable, even with a square diet.

    Further, while the supp industry is full of snake oil salesmen, the latest "food pyramid" was heavily influenced by "governmental consultants" of various food industries. The day I see the FDA discourage partially hydrogenated garbage, refined grains, corn corn corn and more corn, and HFCS, I'll sign up for what they have to say.


    They already tell you to avoid partially hydrogenated oils, refined grains (make at least half your grains whole, preferably more), and nutrition Ph.D. RDs are part of the American Dietetic Association and it is not all influenced by food industries. That's why we are trained to sort the bullshit from the real. You downplay how much education we have in nutrition. Please take a look at the Dietary Guidelines for Americans 2010. It's actually a very, very long document to read. I doubt you read it, because even the professionals often just read the summary.

    To the poster above the above, it is also been a mistranslation/myth about the 1.5g/lb and 2.0g/lb. The pound (lb) is not used in any nutrition science; the kilogram (kg) is instead. Those amounts are 1.5g to 1.7g per kg if you are beginning an exercise program that includes much muscle breakdown and rebuilding. Team sports (division 1), and endurance sports (division 1) are even less than that, ie 1.2-1.5g per KILOGRAM. One kg = 2.2 lbs, so that's about 0.7g of protein per lb if you want to look at it that way.

    It probably was the unscientific marketing people who also started the per pound myth, making poor kids think they're not getting enough protein. Most Americans get plenty of protein everyday without supplementation, which is why I can make such a blanket statement without giving him a specific dietary consultation. I merely answered the question without giving him an assessment, which is all he should expect from a forum post. I can't be expected to hop through the cyberspace and interview him and look at his body language, analyze his feelings and emotions...



    Yeah, it wasn't really a "help me create a plan" question as much as a is it a real necessity. I know a lot of guys who use it so I was wondering if the benefit out weighs the cost or if it just gives an added bonus in general.