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Ever go to the gay bar, pick up on all that goes on around you, and then head home with a general feeling that your soul had just been crushed a little bit?

Maybe I have been heading out and about more lately and am merely losing my perspective.

Thoughts?

I still say the bars are just like the internet - it's what you make of it.

Or the old saying, You get from something what you put in to it.

I generally don't go to bars often - gay-specific or regular ones - but when I do, I usually have a good time. As I almost always go with a group of friends and we enjoy our time together. Such as this past Saturday, when we spent too much money playing late 80s, early 90s faves on the video jukebox system. On the rare occasion I step out alone, even then I can usually find someone to talk to - be they someone I know, someone I'm vaguely acquainted with, or someone new.

Meanwhile, if/when I encounter someone cool to talk to, maybe meet them again somewhere else, that's good. If I encounter some rude fop who deserves a dirty look, that's part of the soup. If all I hear and see are the natterings of flocks of sad protoqueers, perhaps I need to try a different night or a different bar.

Interesting can of worms you are opening here. Having lived outside a major metro area for several years now, there is no such things as a gar bar, gay restaurant, bookstore, neighborhood, etc. in Great Falls, Montana. There are simply places that are open-minded and there are places that are not. IMHO, the concept of "gay community" is an artificial one. We are an artificial community, existing purely because of the fact that no one else wants us (or wanted us in the past when all this homo infrastructure was born). Sort of like a prison "community". In 50 years time, I predict that there will be no such thing as a gay community anymore, as we will have been fully integrated into the broader society, and the raison d'etre for the "ghetto" won't exist anymore.

One sees all sorts of bad, self-destructive behavior in a gay bar. A sort of heirarchy of oppression is abundantly clear to anyone who is even casually observing. The binge drinking, the cattiness, the sad craving for attention, the judgement, all of it - symptoms of people trying to make themselves feel superior because they have been made to feel inferior in the larger society in some way.

In my neck of the woods, when my husband and I want to go out and have a cocktail, we go to a place here in town that is "gay-friendly" only in the loosest possible sense. And I love it. On our last extended trip out of town (to Seattle), we went to some of Bret's old haunts from back in the day when he lived there, and it was MISERABLE. I said to him, there are some seriously unhealthy people here, and he said, welcome to the Emerald City. I couldn't wait to get back to Montana...

jarhead5536 said

One sees all sorts of bad, self-destructive behavior in a gay bar. A sort of heirarchy of oppression is abundantly clear to anyone who is even casually observing. The binge drinking, the cattiness, the sad craving for attention, the judgement, all of it - symptoms of people trying to make themselves feel superior because they have been made to feel inferior in the larger society in some way.

Forgive me, I am not trying to be the antagonist here..
But what you have described is almost any popular bar in the world...
Str8 or Gay.



(It is why I hate "stand and pose" bars gay or str8.. they are equally desperate and tragic).

carry on.

jarhead5536In 50 years time, I predict that there will be no such thing as a gay community anymore, as we will have been fully integrated into the broader society, and the raison d'etre for the "ghetto" won't exist anymore.

I feel very similar to this, although I don't think it's an artificial community so much as a declining one. I've watched it happen over the past few years as more and more of the young college gays here are much more integrated into the social scenes of their hetero peers.

mnjock2003But what you have described is almost any popular bar in the world...
Str8 or Gay.

I also feel strongly about this. Bars are bars. They tend to steadily draw certain types of people/behavior with little bits of all the other peoples/behaviors peeking in on occasion.

Jarhead...God. stop crying about the gay community. I hardly beleive that we exist just because no one wants us. Jesus. If thats your community, you can have it. I will be part of the one that people want to be a part of.

Rugger, the bars here need some more life. You know there was a tie (when Clinton was in office) where being gay was more of a community affair (not politicial comunity) and there was a fun friendly, slutty frivolity in the air. Plus the music is lame and there is no spirit in the service.


I have had a dream to open a club/bar sometime. It would be about the people that go there and the music. Not just some commercialized pre-packaged crap that includes drag shows, kareoke, and soft core porn playing on the TVs. (well there would be no TVs)

I think maybe all the healthy ones have moved on to straight/mixed venues. Sometimes I forget this though. Sometimes I am lazy and don't want to make the effort of navigating a mixed crowd. Sometimes I go in to hang with a group of friends I know will be joining me, but after a few drinks turn it into a BF hunt (with the associated disappointment such a crowd brings).

Obviously this is one of those threads created to allow me to think out loud. ;-)

DJBens,

If you read what I said, the infrastructure of the modern gay community was created during a time when we were excluded elsewhere (like blacks used to be. Black restaurants, clubs, hotels, etc, ya know). It's not always that way anymore, and the time is coming when the necessity for self-segregation will dissapear. Having said that, I put myself through college as a bartender in the hottest gay bar in Houston back in the day, and I saw all of the behavior previously described nightly for four years. I stand by my comments...

Dammit, Rugger, I still haven't met you out yet. Why can't I be the one to crush your soul?

I promise to keep you drunk, shove you toward impossible BF potentials, sing loudly along with the OCH/Rain mix, beat you at pool and darts, and then pork you out at Doggie Style (the Oxford, I believe, is the best way to fatten you up after hours).

The gay clubs/bars in Austin do suck! I'm originally from Houston, and it's funny to even hear my own sisters say how they love to go to the gay bars in Houston but never in Austin. Although I usually can have a great time anywhere as long as I'm with my close friends. I think it's the huge crowd of college students that makes the gay night life less enticing.

Beating Rugger at pool.... ha you may want to challenge yourself a bit more. Sorry Rugg, you know I am no better.

I guess, I am a bit more picky and really look to the bars to step it up. The clientelle will follow. I have tended bar in Austin and New York, and lived in miami, SF, NC, Houston, ATX. I think there is a entaility that comes with a bigger club scene.

Debouchery will follow no matter where you are. Bars are designed to go out and get fucked up and hook up. Otherwise they'd be called libraries.

I've watched it happen over the past few years as more and more of the young college gays here are much more integrated into the social scenes of their hetero peers.[QUOTE GOES HERE

That's the case where I am now. I've dated so many guys who wont even go to the gay scene. They don't feel they want it or need it.

I use to be that way. But after going to the gay village in Toronto a few times it was nice to meet other guys like me and be hit on and flirt with. It was the samethings that my hetero counterparts were doing in "there" bars but I never got a chance to do.

I think there should be an equal balance of both when your gay, because the gay scene gets old and once your seen as a regular its not as exciting. These guys who never give it a chance I feel bad for. They never had the chance to date guys in high school and now the only venue they have to gay men is internet dating. I think bars are an important part of develpoment in modern society and culture. Even if picking up in bars is trashy. It's something you learn from. These "straight" gays have unrealistic veiws of gay relationships and from what i've seen almost always in the closet and internally homophobic narrow minded tools.

I try not to let gay bars have that sort of power over me, but sure it's happened. Sometimes it's hard not feeling invisible, part of the wallpaper. If I'm in the right mindset, I can enjoy them. But I can't have an agenda -- if I have expectations of meeting someone, then I'm likely to be disappointed. If I go there simply to have fun, the pressure is off. Especially if I'm going with friends. But, most of my friends are partnered now, so as a result I don't go out very much any more. I'd love to find some activity to meet guys that allows for me to really interact and talk. It's really hard having conversations in bars/clubs, at least the one in L.A. that I've gone to.

The Smiths:

“There’s a club if you want to go
You could meet somebody who really loves you
So you go and you stand on your own
And you leave on your own
And you go home and you cry and you want to die”

Plus, you get to pay a cover!

Eh Rugger, the gay bars in Austin (I'll only speak of Austin since that's where I live) are what they are.

I have fun, but I have NO expectations. Maybe you're expecting something that Rain just isn't there to provide.

Even most times when I'm not actively looking to meet anyone, I just see this sea of potentially wonderful people who are so wounded that they resort to all kinds of sketchy and self-destructive behavior.

I've always seen the potential in people, even when they don't see it themselves. Maybe I should stop being so engaged like that.

...and how come it's only the hot ones who run around with the coke, the poppers, get the stds, etc.?

Broad brush I know...again..."thinking out loud".

DJBens77 said
Debouchery will follow no matter where you are. Bars are designed to go out and get fucked up and hook up. Otherwise they'd be called libraries.

As someone who works out of a large university library, I have to attest to there being quite a bit of hooking up and debauchery going on here. Just the other week while I was reviewing resumes as part of a search committee, I watched 2 guys hook up in one of the upper floor restrooms during a quiet time of the afternoon. The one even went so far as to fake talk on his cell phone that clearly wasn't on. They came out about 15 minutes later. The cuter one's shirt was no longer tucked him and the other one seemed flushed around the cheeks and lips.

XRuggerATX said...and how come it's only the hot ones who run around with the coke, the poppers, get the stds, etc.?

Is that because you notice them and not the unhot ones who're doing the same things?

probably

Rugger, what is it around you at the gay club happening that crushes you? Is it the fabulousness, oh I know...it's the large variety of fruity coktails made to perfection for your pleasure. It couldn't be all the wall to wall male eye candy (I know all of it ain't...but some of it is). Let's not forget the music! I get it, how many TIMES can you remix Madonna's songs, but is this really enough to crush you? Can't you see the big picture?



These are OUR clubs and they are teeming with our sisters. I know, some of them are self absorbed, shallow, oppurtunistic, whores, but it's not like you don't get your choice of undesirables at any other venue in society: the park, the grocery store, a straight club (god forbid).

So when you go to a gay club, why focus on the negative things that might be happening or the undesirables that might be there? You're there and are a stand up guy, right? Could you really be the only guy there wanting to have a good time or the only guy who is going home later to sleep...alone?

I go for the music and to support gay business and to be near my sisters. What they are there for, well, that's not really my problem.

That first photo in GG's post brings the fab and the tang. Lord have mercy.

I guess since I used to own a gay nightclub, I should add to this post.

A lot of you are right on target. For the most part, you get out of the experience what you put into it. But there is also some responsibility on the part of the club to entertain. I used to tell my bartenders that we'd better be good - our clients can make these drinks at home for a lot less money than they're spending with us. So we did game shows, bizarre events (squirt gun parties, for example) and we even, I am sad to report, were the first club in Palm Springs to have karaoke.

The clubs today have a different problem and, if you're reading this, you're part of 'it'. The internet has changed the game completely. While gay bars were our 'town halls' (we had few other public meeting spots), the internet has completely replaced this function. You no longer buy someone a drink and strike up a conversation, you check out their profile and know more about them in two minutes than you were likely to find out the entire first night of meeting them in a bar. This isn't, by the way, a complaint. Just an observation - the rules of the game have changed. My friends who are still bar owners know this and have seen their overall clientele base slowly but steadily decline over the past decade as a result.

One of my friends in his early twenties laments that as a result of this change, romance for his generation is dead. No more dinners to 'get to know' someone. A lot of gay sites make hooking up no more difficult than ordering a pizza and frequently, in less time.

On the plus side, look at how much easier it's become to come out. When I was in college, it was a scandal that one of the Resident Advisors was found to be gay. He was drummed out of his job AND the school. Nowadays, who would care? Assimilation into the mainstream can be good.

A final note: Gay bars can be depressing. There are some people in the bars that have addiction problems and are - literally - drinking their lives away. If you want to avoid that sadness, stay away from the happy hours and wait until after dinner to hit the clubs. But be sure to take along a good, happy attitude and a smile. As one of my friends once said "it's not important to be the hottest guy in the club. If you're having the most fun, people will want to be around you".

Gay bars are like the window of a bakery: the overly decorated "pastries in the window" all look so inviting that you can't turn your head away to see a good canoli or cinnamon bun that you'd like under normal circumstances. The bar for beauty is set high by just a few people and those guys are the only ones really enjoying the experience.

I was in Columbus over the weekend and barhopped and found the experience to be typically deflating. I know that as surely as night follows day someone here will argue this point (and I've had a few exceptions on this rule myself) but you can't go to a gay bar alone and expect a good time. For the most part gay men are 14 year old girls; only as secure as the group they hang with. They go in their gaggle and want to only meet other guys in their gaggle and stay in the safety zone of their clique. They see a person who is alone and assign a negative meaning to his solitude. What's wrong with him?

If you want to meet someone then you need to have your group and then merge with the group of the guy you find interesting, like two weather systems colliding and mixing.

Austin has a great gay scene that isn't ghettoed into one area, but the bars in the Warehouse District are just as shallow and hollow an experience as any gay bar anywhere. The ones in Austin that are off the beaten path are better for meeting people, but they don't have quite as much eye candy. However, they do have a lot of good canoli and cinnamon buns.

PS - I think you hit the nail on the head. the Internet has changed the game considerably. I lived in Austin 11 years ago, when there were at least 3 additional gay bars. Happy hours were usually packed and people stayed through the deadzone times, 7pm - 10pm.

I got into my relationship before Internet dating was available, so I missed that force. I still beleive that meeting in person and getting to know, like, hate, whatever another person can never be replicated online.

What saddens me is that there are tons of great guys who are just stuck behind their computer.

Get off the keyboard and dance, talk, flirt. As a gay community, we are losing our spaces. Our gayborhoods have playgrounds, our bars serve more women. But I go out and the bartenders and owners have this, if you build it, they will come mentality. No sir. I think we all need to kick it up a notch.

Some may think this sounds sad, but I love the nightlife. I am able to enjoy it and not be a complete mess. Just cause you like to go ouot to bars does not mean you are a flake, a scum or a druggie.

Yeah I think the bars used to be for meeting people AND scoring party drugs and getting wasted.

Now the meeting people part has migrated to online and what remains is the party drugs and getting wasted.

But I hate meeting people online. Well...meeting friends online is fine, but for more, yuck.

Anyway, I started this brain-to-mouth thread in order to hopefuly regain my perspective, and this is what's happening, so thanks guys.

Rugger... Let's hit the bars this weekend. I know you are just upset cause I had to ditch the crew last Friday...

PSCalif said

The clubs today have a different problem and, if you're reading this, you're part of 'it'. The internet has changed the game completely. While gay bars were our 'town halls' (we had few other public meeting spots), the internet has completely replaced this function. You no longer buy someone a drink and strike up a conversation, you check out their profile and know more about them in two minutes than you were likely to find out the entire first night of meeting them in a bar. This isn't, by the way, a complaint. Just an observation - the rules of the game have changed. My friends who are still bar owners know this and have seen their overall clientele base slowly but steadily decline over the past decade as a result.

One of my friends in his early twenties laments that as a result of this change, romance for his generation is dead. No more dinners to 'get to know' someone. A lot of gay sites make hooking up no more difficult than ordering a pizza and frequently, in less time.

Very pertinent words.

But is the romance really dead?
I'll chat a guy up online to a certain point, but then I want to meet for dinner, etc. That normal progression. Am I odd in this? Are people relating online and then jumping into a 'relationship' without actual in person dates?

DJBens77 saidRugger... Let's hit the bars this weekend. I know you are just upset cause I had to ditch the crew last Friday...

Yeah but then I get a few pops in me and I start ignoring my friends and turn the whole thing into a BF hunt (like I said above).

But like I said this thread is more about seeing guys act self-destructive...or worse, have their cake and eat it too (go all out sketch and somehow still be successful). The jealous meanie in me says that's not right, because I know I cannot pull it off myself.

Heh...I feel like I'm on the e-couch and should be paying you guys by the hour or something...for listening that is. ;-)

It's hard to believe potential bf's are not hitting on XruggerATX at the bar. What's wrong with those boys in Austin???? I figured a place like Austin probably had the coolest bars ever...go go boys in Texas burnt orange speedos (that cling to their longhorn), and a cowboy hat. Damn...my illusion is shattered.

I think any kind of bar can bring out the best and worst in people. Hopefully on a night out, you can just find that in between spot and have fun.

jarhead5536 saidIn 50 years time, I predict that there will be no such thing as a gay community anymore, as we will have been fully integrated into the broader society, and the raison d'etre for the "ghetto" won't exist anymore.

I have heard prophecies about the end of "gay culture," and predictions that in the future gay-specific institutions will disappear and gays will be fully integrated into the mainstream. What do you envision this world is going to look like? I lived in Seattle, a liberal, gay-friendly city, for a long time, and even there you can't go up to a guy you don't know in a straight bar and say, "Hey, you're cute. Would you like to go out sometime?" I don't see the presumption that everyone is heterosexual unless proven otherwise going away. Until it does, the gay bar will remain a valuable institution.

Also, I've heard from my friends in Austin that the boys' bars there are worse than you would expect. They think the lesbian scene there is one of the best anywhere, though.

I think the knock on the boy bar scene here is partially a result of a tolerant, varied, and totally fun mainstream scene. There's no real "need" to go to gay bars here, unless you're looking to score the items I earlier detailed.

FYI...the reason I've been going more often is that this is where the softball league after-parties are held. This is fun for a while. Maybe I've been calling it a night a little too late.

Fifty years was I guess an arbitrary time frame. I see how blacks have (more or less) integrated into all of society, and can imagine that ultimately the same will happen to us. There may remain places where we are unsafe (as blacks are still in some places in rural America), but I guess what I'm going at is that people will not automatically assume heterosexuality about strangers they meet any longer in the future, or be offended by the question, although hopefully we won't be quite as nakedly flirty as we currently can be in a gay bar!

GuiltyGear said...
...

OMG!!! Poor Smithers!!!!

Ugh!

Boyfriend hunt?? Dude ... relax. Go have fun and let your inhibitions go. Don't set up ANY expectations and just enjoy your time w/ your friends and if you meet some hottie, go flirt and maybe go back to his place.

Well like I said this "BF hunt dynamic" only happens when I've had a few and my attention skews away from my friends. What few inhibitions I already have vanish. I talk up someone cute and energetic.

Then I get offered a bump. This is the soul crushing part. I hate coke.

But if you think I should relax, well, I guess I'll try to relax even more than I already am (ask anyone around me...I'm relaxed).

I didn't mean to make you yell "ugh" about this.

Yes, you should relax!

Hell, I don't know ... meet other peeps out at different bars (gay and straight).

XRuggerATX said

Then I get offered a bump. This is the soul crushing part. I hate coke.

Maybe I'm a prude, but I call the cops on those assholes. I loathe drugs.

Ha. there is a lot of coke out there... yucky.

rugger is pretty lax. Now I know where you go at the end of the evening...

I think that younger guys tend to frequent bars and Austin, in particular, is a very young city. were are all the 30 yo and up?

B

I think bars are all the same, whether they are gay or straight. There just seems to be a real sense of desperation to them, of people trying so desperately to get laid. I find it really awful and not at all fun.

Desperation. Yes. Very much so.

Anyway, I really overdid it this weekend with little to show for it, which is a big reason for my gloominess.

XRuggerATX saidAnyway, I really overdid it this weekend with little to show for it, which is a big reason for my gloominess.

Okay ... the weekend is over. Move on to this weekend. There's no point on dwelling what happened.

OK SoDakGuy. Thanks for all your help with this.

You're a catch. You had a bad weekend. It happens to EVERYONE.

This weekend may be a billion times better than the previous.

OK SoDakGuy. Thanks again for the compliment and for all your help with this.

Where are we starting this weekend? I might be down for a bar crawl.

My two cents:

Gay bars in my experience are the same everywhere, albeit with varying degrees of good or bad music. That bitchy group of guys, the drunk daddies, the liberated man (i.e. just came out) with his shirt off who really should put it back on, the guys with the bottled water because they've had too much "purple", it's all the same. I think if you're clear about your expectations for that night, you're less likely to be dissappointed.

As some have brought up, gay bars no longer serve the social function they once did (speaking of the big cities here and not the small towns where this is not necessarily the case). The general de-politicalization of gay life has had the effect of rendering bars fun if somewhat dated places where the people/types are as predictable as the music you expect to hear. Though I doubt the day will come when gay people are considered "just like everyone else" (ugh, I shudder at the thought) so long as homophobia is still morally acceptable to so many, from what I've observed, younger gay people seem to be attempting other social outlets. While I doubt gay venues will entirely dissapear (the westernization/globalization of the "gay community" has ensured this), they will have to come into the 21st century sooner or later.

(FYI, I enjoy going out and dancing but only do this occassionally as I find the general air of desperation mixed with misogynistic horniness to be a bit stifling.)

Funny... I just finished watching Gypsy Boys, and I think I'm scared now...

RealJock's own Vergence runs a dandy blog on being gay, single, and on the market called Broken Cupid. He offered the advice of leaving a bar and calling it a night just after peek when things begin dying off, rather than hunting all night when the selection gets more desperate. It sounds like good advice to me, as staying until 4AM never got me anything but disappointment.

jarhead5536 said... but I guess what I'm going at is that people will not automatically assume heterosexuality about strangers they meet any longer in the future, or be offended by the question, although hopefully we won't be quite as nakedly flirty as we currently can be in a gay bar!

And maybe it is moving in this direction, especially in very liberal cities like Austin. But is it so bad to be flirty? I'm sort of a prude, but flirtation (not aggressive propositioning) is a good thing, on the whole.

Guilty where did you get the pic of my BF. He wanted to be a Lawyer until the day somebody told him that the "Miranda Warnings" did not deal with wearing fruit as a Hat. He looked like a kid who's older Brother told him there was no Santa, VERY SAD

Rugger, I understand what you're saying. But, the good guys are out there, trust me.

I totally get the frustrations with wanting to meet someone quality.

But, what can you do?

Hell, if you see me at a bar, come chat me up. I promise I won't offer you a bump because that's just rude. I'd totally offer a full line.

Like I said I don't look for BFs in gay bars until I'm past the point of good judgement, which hasn't happened in a long time but did this weekend.

Thanks guys. I appreciate all the different perspectives.

Jackal69-- I think gay bars still serve a function in our community. It's just more social than sexual or romanitc.

And to XruggerATX-- the bar can be soul crushing. The trick is to leave while you're still having fun. Just be careful not to get in the mindset where you're not having fun to begin with. It's definately time to avoid the bars then.

I usually go out to play darts with friends or just to entertain others and have fun in that. I also get a great deal of joy in just being around people and listening to music. I have to say though that the act of "looking" for a BF can be self defeating. If you just observe people or get to know them with no goal, you might get more out of it.

The problem with "looking" is that the very act changes your perception and keeps you from seeing people as they really are. If you can become satisfied with the love of your friends and your own value, you can calm your desire to "get" something artificially. Life is like a maze, and if you if did one of those maze puzzles, you will realize that to get through the maze sometimes you have to take non-obvious paths while the "obvious" or "direct" ones just take you to a dead end.

Also, You mentioned doing certain things after drinking. Remember drinking can distort your judgment. But also if if takes drinking to take certain actions I wonder if you are repressed in some way.

"A good traveler has no fixed plans
and is not intent upon arriving.
A good artist lets his intuition
lead him wherever it wants.
A good scientist has freed himself of concepts
and keeps his mind open to what is.

Thus the Master is available to all people
and doesn't reject anyone.
He is ready to use all situations
and doesn't waste anything."

Men talk about wanting to meet someone quality but we need to look at ourselves and see if we're worth what were asking for.

I wanted this ideal guy for so long but when I look at how I act and sometimes treat other people why would somebody like that want to settle for me.

I try more and more each time to shed my attitude, be nicer to strangers who try to start a conversation with me and might not be eye candy and be genuine and just be my laid back goofy self. However I will talk back and be chatty but when they find out all I want is to talk they soon part ways.

I just don't feel like I can be myself around other guys. It's like we've all be programed and told to be a certain way and then we spend so much time trying to break out of it and be ourselves.

It's the groups that ruin it. It's so high school and drama.. I'm to tired for that.

XRuggerATX saidEven most times when I'm not actively looking to meet anyone, I just see this sea of potentially wonderful people who are so wounded that they resort to all kinds of sketchy and self-destructive behavior.

Erm.... *Ouch* ?

vergence said The trick is to leave while you're still having fun.

And have a 2 drink limit.

Men...we can live without them, but we don't really want to.

This thread made me feel 18 again. Not in a good way.

LOL, I won't charge you a cover for this, Rugger. LOLz, don't watch this vid while drinking milk. Do tip her, she's trying so hard!

XRuggerATX saidEver go to the gay bar, pick up on all that goes on around you, and then head home with a general feeling that your soul had just been crushed a little bit?

Maybe I have been heading out and about more lately and am merely losing my perspective.

Thoughts?

Its even worse if you work at one. All the backstabbing and trash talk that goes on to make other employees look worthless. More than half the shit I've seen starts with the bar employees. Case in point: One of the gay bars here in Omaha is mixed gay and straight on Saturday nights. Almost all the security is straight, some married. A female bartender, lesbian, walked up to a wife of one of the security and casually commented how she sleeped with her husband. A total LIE! Put together alcohol and anger, this couple gets into a fight at a gas station over the ordeal and the guy gets thrown in jail. Security is employed thru a third party, the security company had to bail him out. And the bartender still works at this bar, despite treating a customer; the wife, like shit!

I think it depends on the Gay Bar you attend. Downtown Toledo bars can be a bit seedy but what I don't like about them is they're in really rotten neighborhoods.

I frequent a bar in the suburbs and it's a lot like a gay "Cheers".

There's a certain amount of drama but nothing too serious.

Gay bars, the gay scene...

Its all about what you put into it- and what you expect.

If you expect to find your next long term boyfriend from it.... you might get burned.

There are a lot of problems with people who drink too much... not to mention drug abuse.

But some people can take it all with a grain of salt. I go to the club with expectations of having a drink or two, chatting and dancing with my friends....and thats pretty much it. I'm not on the prowl, looking for my next lay.

So again.... you reap what you sow. It does not have to be all a negative thing.

I've been staying away on the busy busy nights. The intense mix of drugs, sex, and neurotic/bitchy behavior with kids acting out is too much.

Sunday happy hour has been fun though, although probably because it's mostly softball players from the Sunday gay league.

Anyway, perspective found.

Sunday was a lot more fun when I was still spinning at Rain....