This is why Pride is important.

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    Jun 28, 2011 6:47 PM GMT
    The following two paragraphs are taken from the June 28, 2011 edition of The Writers' Almanac. The fact that the Almanac even mentions this facet of our history at all is telling of an overall shift in the general population's views of the LGBT population and our fight for equality. The next time you feel embarrassed by a Pride parade (which seems to come up often in the forums here), keep in mind these people put everything on the line for you so that you could live a more open life today.

    *

    In the early hours of this day in 1969, the Stonewall riots broke out in New York City, marking the beginning of the gay rights movement. The Stonewall Inn in Greenwich Village was a popular hangout for gays, lesbians, and transvestites in the late 1960s. On June 28, police raided the bar on the premise that they were selling alcohol without a liquor license. It was the third raid on a Greenwich Village gay bar in a short period of time, and this time when the cops cleared the bar, the patrons didn't disperse, but milled around outside, hurtling insults and bottles at the police. The officers called for reinforcements and barricaded themselves inside the bar. The riots lasted five days; they galvanized and unified smaller gay rights movements and led to the radical activism of the 1970s. On the first anniversary of the riots, the first gay pride parades were held in Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and New York.

    In David Carter's book Stonewall (2004), he quotes witness Michael Fader: "We weren't going to be walking meekly in the night and letting them shove us around — it's like standing your ground for the first time and in a really strong way, and that's what caught the police by surprise. There was something in the air, freedom a long time overdue, and we're going to fight for it. It took different forms, but the bottom line was, we weren't going to go away. And we didn't."
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    Jun 28, 2011 8:27 PM GMT
    Mmmhm pride=activism. You're on the money.
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    Jun 28, 2011 8:29 PM GMT
    But if we just meekly mull around in a 3 piece suit like accountants and all we will get our equal rights.

    Fighting the man who is holding you down is bad guys!
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    Jun 28, 2011 8:31 PM GMT
    Chainers saidBut if we just meekly mull around in a 3 piece suit like accountants and all we will get our equal rights.

    Fighting the man who is holding you down is bad guys!

    How? Please explain this process. How SHOULD we obtain equal rights?
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    Jun 28, 2011 8:31 PM GMT
    RowBuddy saidit is a shame that "pride" is now synonymous with bois in rainbow thongs dancing on floats and throwing condoms and pearl necklaces at drunks. icon_sad.gif



    Thats kind of what Pride always is about, or at least the essence anyways.

    Its not about conforming to the masses, its about being loud, out and proud.

    In your face so to speak, without literally getting in everyones face (but really in everyone's face.)
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    Jun 28, 2011 8:33 PM GMT
    They should include:

    In the early hours of this day in 1969, the Stonewall riots broke out in New York City, marking the beginning of the gay rights movement. The Stonewall Inn in Greenwich Village was a popular hangout for gays, lesbians, and transvestites in the late 1960s. Patrons of gay bars were regularly harrased and arrested by police for morals violations, whether the patrons were actually guilty or not. Gay men and women would then have their names and addresses printed in the newspapers. Many of their employers were informed of their arrests, and many lost their jobs. On June 28, police raided the bar on the premise that they were selling alcohol without a liquor license. It was the third raid on a Greenwich Village gay bar in a short period of time, and this time when the cops cleared the bar, the patrons didn't disperse, but milled around outside, hurtling insults and bottles at the police. The officers called for reinforcements and barricaded themselves inside the bar. The riots lasted five days; they galvanized and unified smaller gay rights movements and led to the radical activism of the 1970s. On the first anniversary of the riots, the first gay pride parades were held in Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and New York.
  • rf_dal

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    Jun 28, 2011 8:35 PM GMT
    RowBuddy saidit is a shame that "pride" is now synonymous with bois in rainbow thongs dancing on floats and throwing condoms and pearl necklaces at drunks. icon_sad.gif



    THIS. This this this.
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    Jun 28, 2011 8:37 PM GMT
    RowBuddy said
    Chainers said
    Its not about conforming to the masses, its about being loud, out and proud.



    Again. What a shame that being "normal" and not obnoxious, having your gayness seen from Mars and ashamed of people that act like sex-clowns means there is something wrong with you.


    Rowbuddy. Your the only one who suggested that being "normal" (whatever that may be) means something is wrong with the individual.

    The real shame here is thinking that those who are different don't deserve equal rights.
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    Jun 28, 2011 8:37 PM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    Chainers saidBut if we just meekly mull around in a 3 piece suit like accountants and all we will get our equal rights.

    Fighting the man who is holding you down is bad guys!

    How? Please explain this process. How SHOULD we obtain equal rights?


    I was being sarcastic. Sorry I should have said such.
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    Jun 28, 2011 8:38 PM GMT
    but,but,i like bois in rainbow thongs throwing condoms at me.
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    Jun 28, 2011 8:42 PM GMT
    RowBuddy said
    Chainers said
    RowBuddy said
    Chainers said
    Its not about conforming to the masses, its about being loud, out and proud.



    Again. What a shame that being "normal" and not obnoxious, having your gayness seen from Mars and ashamed of people that act like sex-clowns means there is something wrong with you.


    Rowbuddy. Your the only one who suggested that being "normal" (whatever that may be) means something is wrong with the individual.

    The real shame here is thinking that those who are different don't deserve equal rights.


    Ok, dont go putting words in my mouth. I never said that. Rainbow waving slut-bois in thongs with buckets of condoms and one day passes to the local bathhouse I am sure deserve equal rights. Its just a shame that none of the things those types of people do in the parade actually have anything to do with anything other than sex. Sex sex sex.


    Yes I agree. In fact, as gay individuals, we should be exclusive of who gets representation in the parade. Because thats what being gay is about, excluding others for being different /sarcasm off.
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    Jun 28, 2011 8:48 PM GMT
    RowBuddy said
    Chainers said
    RowBuddy said
    Chainers said
    RowBuddy said
    Chainers said
    Its not about conforming to the masses, its about being loud, out and proud.



    Again. What a shame that being "normal" and not obnoxious, having your gayness seen from Mars and ashamed of people that act like sex-clowns means there is something wrong with you.


    Rowbuddy. Your the only one who suggested that being "normal" (whatever that may be) means something is wrong with the individual.

    The real shame here is thinking that those who are different don't deserve equal rights.


    Ok, dont go putting words in my mouth. I never said that. Rainbow waving slut-bois in thongs with buckets of condoms and one day passes to the local bathhouse I am sure deserve equal rights. Its just a shame that none of the things those types of people do in the parade actually have anything to do with anything other than sex. Sex sex sex.


    Yes I agree. In fact, as gay individuals, we should be exclusive of who gets representation in the parade. Because thats what being gay is about, excluding others for being different /sarcasm off.


    ok clearly you are incapable of understanding that what I am saying and just want to create drama/tell someone off because they don't think the same as you. Maybe you would be better off joining the local debate club where you can be stupid somewhere else.


    What exaclty are you trying to say man. Yes, I am very confused with the point that you are trying to make. Sex has nothing to do with being gay? Please enlighten me.
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    Jun 28, 2011 8:59 PM GMT
    Chainers,

    I think that you're intentionally quibbling over semantics which is disappointing because I have enjoyed your posts on the board.

    Pride is an important event. However, if were were to be brutally honest, a number of people who attend Pride have little interest in showing gay pride nor do they have any interest in understanding Stonewall, Harvey Milk, etc.; Their primary interest is getting laid. In my opinion, that goal isn't one that I would like to associate with Pride. This is the point that I believe rowbuddy is attempting to make.
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    Jun 28, 2011 9:04 PM GMT
    chemguy79 saidChainers,

    I think that you're intentionally quibbling over semantics which is disappointing because I have enjoyed your posts on the board.

    Pride is an important event. However, if were were to be brutally honest, a number of people who attend Pride have little interest in showing gay pride nor do they have any interest in understanding Stonewall, Harvey Milk, etc.; Their primary interest is getting laid. This is the point that I believe rowbuddy is attempting to make.


    I can agree with that, and I think the reason being is the primary existence of many gay men is to get laid (which is weird in my book, lol.) To those individuals, thats what being gay is about, getting laid. Good for them.

    Being gay means much more to me, and I remember pride as having to do with Stonewall, Harvey Milk, the gay rights movement as a whole. I think part of the problem is we dont learn about this stuff in school, which we should (its american history after all.)

    That doesnt make the event less important, or meaningful to those of us who know (or remember, for some) how things were before Pride came around. Im not going to ask people before they come to the event "what is your goal here, to get laid or celebrate the gay rights movement?" Ill accept those of us who are different, and align myself with those who are the same. We as a community should do more to have general acceptance and not exclusion, both in pride and outside of pride. It can be sickening how many people are excluded due to weight (but lets be real, fatties are human [dont eat me!]), age, looks, race, and so forth.

    The idea that some individuals use the event to get wasted and ho themselves around debunks the event as a whole is laughable, as there are many straight people who use Halloween as an event to get wasted and ho themselves around. Does this mean the children cant get there candy from strangers (or people cant leave a trail of candy into their creepy van to snatch me up?) No, of course not. It just means let the retards be retards and let those who understand what its about celebrate the damn event. (its about candy, not sex.)
  • daveindenver

    Posts: 314

    Jun 28, 2011 9:11 PM GMT
    Pride USED to have a point to it.
    It really doesnt have anything to rally around anymore to justify its existence (unless you live in a smaller town.)
    Going to a pride event in a major city is just preaching to the choir.

    Rowbuddy , youre exactly on point.
    In GENERAL, pride events these days, in large cities is a Public Relations nightmare.
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    Jun 28, 2011 9:17 PM GMT
    yourname2000 saidI think people confuse "Parade" with "March".

    People march in protest ("This must change".) Parades are celebrations ("We won!" or "It's that time of year again!"). There's very little political stuff at the Santa Claus parade; the Rose Bowl parade, etc. Relatively little entertainment at the Million Man March.

    The Pride Parade started as a march. It's now a parade.

    I don't think today's parade is changing anyone's mind about gay people. But it's probably a great excuse to get drunk in public, lol. Our communities (gay and straight together) can use a few more of those, in my mind. But the serious issues of equal rights need to be discussed over a table rather than be written on banners in glitter.


    I can see that point of view.

    I think the real power Pride has is helping the individual gay men/women who attend feel acceptance. I still remember my first (and only) pride experience, it was great to see all those people there who loved themselves for who they were (and shirtless.)

    Really, that was the first day I became comfortable with being gay.

    Hu ha!
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    Jun 28, 2011 9:19 PM GMT
    yourname2000 saidI think people confuse "Parade" with "March".

    People march in protest ("This must change".) Parades are celebrations ("We won!" or "It's that time of year again!"). There's very little political stuff at the Santa Claus parade; the Rose Bowl parade, etc. Relatively little entertainment at the Million Man March.

    The Pride Parade started as a march. It's now a parade.

    I don't think today's parade is changing anyone's mind about gay people. But it's probably a great excuse to get drunk in public, lol. Our communities (gay and straight together) can use a few more of those, in my mind. But the serious issues of equal rights need to be discussed over a table rather than be written on banners in glitter.


    Not quite.

    First Pride march

    On November 2, 1969, Craig Rodwell proposed the first gay pride parade to be held in New York City by way of a resolution at the Eastern Regional Conference of Homophile Organizations meeting in Philadelphia, along with his partner, Fred Sargeant, Ellen Broidy and Linda Rhodes. [2]

    "That the Annual Reminder, in order to be more relevant, reach a greater number of people, and encompass the ideas and ideals of the larger struggle in which we are engaged-that of our fundamental human rights-be moved both in time and location.
    We propose that a demonstration be held annually on the last Saturday in June in New York City to commemorate the 1969 spontaneous demonstrations on Christopher Street and this demonstration be called CHRISTOPHER STREET LIBERATION DAY. No dress or age regulations shall be made for this demonstration.
    We also propose that we contact Homophile organizations throughout the country and suggest that they hold parallel demonstrations on that day. We propose a nationwide show of support.[3][4][5][6]"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride_parade#First_Pride_march
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    Jun 28, 2011 9:21 PM GMT
    introjock said
    yourname2000 saidI think people confuse "Parade" with "March".

    People march in protest ("This must change".) Parades are celebrations ("We won!" or "It's that time of year again!"). There's very little political stuff at the Santa Claus parade; the Rose Bowl parade, etc. Relatively little entertainment at the Million Man March.

    The Pride Parade started as a march. It's now a parade.

    I don't think today's parade is changing anyone's mind about gay people. But it's probably a great excuse to get drunk in public, lol. Our communities (gay and straight together) can use a few more of those, in my mind. But the serious issues of equal rights need to be discussed over a table rather than be written on banners in glitter.


    Not quite.

    First Pride march

    On November 2, 1969, Craig Rodwell proposed the first gay pride parade to be held in New York City by way of a resolution at the Eastern Regional Conference of Homophile Organizations meeting in Philadelphia, along with his partner, Fred Sargeant, Ellen Broidy and Linda Rhodes. [2]

    "That the Annual Reminder, in order to be more relevant, reach a greater number of people, and encompass the ideas and ideals of the larger struggle in which we are engaged-that of our fundamental human rights-be moved both in time and location.
    We propose that a demonstration be held annually on the last Saturday in June in New York City to commemorate the 1969 spontaneous demonstrations on Christopher Street and this demonstration be called CHRISTOPHER STREET LIBERATION DAY. No dress or age regulations shall be made for this demonstration.
    We also propose that we contact Homophile organizations throughout the country and suggest that they hold parallel demonstrations on that day. We propose a nationwide show of support.[3][4][5][6]"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride_parade#First_Pride_march


    Dude the Aussie (I think) is saying that Pride started as a political demonstration for equal rights, but now that Gay people are treated as people in these major cities (San Francisco, LA, NY, Chicago) the Pride March has turned more into a party event to celebrate the equality that we are seeing.

    But dont ask me, ask him.
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    Jun 28, 2011 9:28 PM GMT
    Chainers said
    yourname2000 saidI think people confuse "Parade" with "March".

    People march in protest ("This must change".) Parades are celebrations ("We won!" or "It's that time of year again!"). There's very little political stuff at the Santa Claus parade; the Rose Bowl parade, etc. Relatively little entertainment at the Million Man March.

    The Pride Parade started as a march. It's now a parade.

    I don't think today's parade is changing anyone's mind about gay people. But it's probably a great excuse to get drunk in public, lol. Our communities (gay and straight together) can use a few more of those, in my mind. But the serious issues of equal rights need to be discussed over a table rather than be written on banners in glitter.


    I can see that point of view.

    I think the real power Pride has is helping the individual gay men/women who attend feel acceptance. I still remember my first (and only) pride experience, it was great to see all those people there who loved themselves for who they were (and shirtless.)

    Really, that was the first day I became comfortable with being gay.

    Hu ha!


    In a way though, pride is just reinforcing the stereotypical other side of things and a close-minded identity completely on the other side from being straight. Pride tells us that to be accepted and gay, gays must have hot bodies, muscles, be sexually liberal, and be outwardly feminine.

    What if you are fat? Or have morals? Or are naturally masculine? How can you become "comfortable" with being gay when you are shown the most important values are your body, sexuality, leather, and femininity?

    What if you don't identify with those values? Well then you must be "self-hating"! icon_rolleyes.gif But how can people say that someone else is hating themselves when the self they know isn't naturally like these things?
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    Jun 28, 2011 9:30 PM GMT
    chemguy79 saidChainers,

    I think that you're intentionally quibbling over semantics which is disappointing because I have enjoyed your posts on the board.

    Pride is an important event. However, if were were to be brutally honest, a number of people who attend Pride have little interest in showing gay pride nor do they have any interest in understanding Stonewall, Harvey Milk, etc.; Their primary interest is getting laid. In my opinion, that goal isn't one that I would like to associate with Pride. This is the point that I believe rowbuddy is attempting to make.
    To some extent you could use this argument for any large social gathering such as Marti Gras too.

    If you attended the SF Pride celebration, you would have seen some half clothed dikes on bikes, nude guys in the crowd and rainbow waving trannies but what you would also have seen is the support of companies such as Google (with tons of employees), Kaiser, Genetech, Bank of America and others. You would have seen some key players in the political arena who have supported gay rights for years. You would also have seen the floats/marchers of the Trevor Project, HRC, Aids Foundation, Alzheimer's Association, PFLAG, and many other social and religious organizations who took the time to show their support for YOU! Having a half million people gathered to see an extensive parade and celebration reminds you that, although there is an element of 'sexuality' and individuality that comes with gay pride, there's a much bigger show of community support that encourages and educates many people well beyond the minority of attention seeking 'in your face' gays of yesterday. They played a big role, not doubt about that, and today it's less about them and more about building that community that we all want to embrace, I hope!

    There were tears in my eyes multiple times as I watch young and old march with dignity. I kept thinking about what a great place to live that we can come together and offer this kind of support for each other. You can not imagine standing in the Civic Center and looking as far in all four directions as you could and seeing nothing but people. People there to support and celebrate a lifestyle that only several decades ago would have been unthinkable.

    No, pride isn't just about getting laid or showing off flamboyantly, if that's what you take away from a Pride Celebration then you've missed the entire point of celebrating as a community our freedoms, rights and support together.
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    Jun 28, 2011 9:31 PM GMT
    Chainers said
    I can agree with that, and I think the reason being is the primary existence of many gay men is to get laid (which is weird in my book, lol.) To those individuals, thats what being gay is about, getting laid. Good for them.

    Being gay means much more to me, and I remember pride as having to do with Stonewall, Harvey Milk, the gay rights movement as a whole. I think part of the problem is we dont learn about this stuff in school, which we should (its american history after all.)

    That doesnt make the event less important, or meaningful to those of us who know (or remember, for some) how things were before Pride came around. Im not going to ask people before they come to the event "what is your goal here, to get laid or celebrate the gay rights movement?" Ill accept those of us who are different, and align myself with those who are the same. We as a community should do more to have general acceptance and not exclusion, both in pride and outside of pride. It can be sickening how many people are excluded due to weight (but lets be real, fatties are human [dont eat me!]), age, looks, race, and so forth.


    The idea that some individuals use the event to get wasted and ho themselves around debunks the event as a whole is laughable, as there are many straight people who use Halloween as an event to get wasted and ho themselves around. Does this mean the children cant get there candy from strangers (or people cant leave a trail of candy into their creepy van to snatch me up?) No, of course not. It just means let the retards be retards and let those who understand what its about celebrate the damn event. (its about candy, not sex.)


    I agree with your point that one shouldn't necessarily have to justify their presence at PRIDE. However, I think that some people may take offense regarding PRIDE when their sole goal is fucking as many guys as they can. Don't get me wrong; I'm not a prude, I love sex, yada yada. However, when your sole goal at PRIDE is cock ... *shrug* ... it's not my cup of tea.

    That is where a majority of the anti-PRIDE sentiment comes from. I'm comfortable with being gay, I enjoy attending PRIDE parades and meeting different people. However, I can't help but be somewhat discouraged when my friends who see PRIDE as an excuse for an orgy. They have free reign to use it as such and I have free reign to exercise my disappointment in the same vein.

    That is where the discussion between you and Rowbuddy came into play. Rowbuddy was disappointed with the above point and you took the extreme contrary position. The solution: be the "role model"/example that you want to see. If you want to see people like you at PRIDE, be there and be true to yourself.
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    Jun 28, 2011 9:32 PM GMT
    shredcutback said
    Chainers said
    yourname2000 saidI think people confuse "Parade" with "March".

    People march in protest ("This must change".) Parades are celebrations ("We won!" or "It's that time of year again!"). There's very little political stuff at the Santa Claus parade; the Rose Bowl parade, etc. Relatively little entertainment at the Million Man March.

    The Pride Parade started as a march. It's now a parade.

    I don't think today's parade is changing anyone's mind about gay people. But it's probably a great excuse to get drunk in public, lol. Our communities (gay and straight together) can use a few more of those, in my mind. But the serious issues of equal rights need to be discussed over a table rather than be written on banners in glitter.


    I can see that point of view.

    I think the real power Pride has is helping the individual gay men/women who attend feel acceptance. I still remember my first (and only) pride experience, it was great to see all those people there who loved themselves for who they were (and shirtless.)

    Really, that was the first day I became comfortable with being gay.

    Hu ha!


    In a way though, pride is just reinforcing the stereotypical other side of things and a close-minded identity completely on the other side from being straight. Pride tells us that to be accepted and gay, gays must have hot bodies, muscles, be sexually liberal, and be outwardly feminine.

    What if you are fat? Or have morals? Or are naturally masculine? How can you become "comfortable" with being gay when you are shown the most important values are your body, sexuality, leather, and femininity?

    What if you don't identify with those values? Well you must be "self-hating" icon_rolleyes.gif But how can people say that someone else is hating themselves when the self they know isn't naturally like these things?


    I think that being gay is very different to many different people. As a gay man, I consider myself Feminine in the sense that I like to be held, I like to be jerked around (playfully) and I always dibs the little spoon. However, my manarisms are masculine, and that is because I hang around straight people mostly.

    It wasnt that I had to be muscular (I wasnt even close to in shape then) to be gay, it was the fact that, for the first time, I wasnt different because I was a man who was attracted to other men. That was a great feeling man.

    And being gay doesnt mean being into leather.

    I think the issues that you are bringing up are much bigger than the issues of Pride itself. These are huge issues with the gay community and I often feel segregated from it because I chose to pursue a career at age 24 as opposed to crystal meth. That doesnt discredit pride at all though, in my opinion.
  • awm55

    Posts: 619

    Jun 28, 2011 9:36 PM GMT
    The NYC gay pride parade had many people celebrating the gay marriage decision, local community groups supporting gay employees, friend, family, etc. It also had a penis float, topless lesbians, guys in leather spanking each other, a float advertising gay prostitutes, and cups shaped like testicles.

    Maybe I was just raised differently, but I don't think its too much to ask for us as a group to have social decency and a bit of taste when it comes to how we behave in public.

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    Jun 28, 2011 9:36 PM GMT
    shredcutback said
    Chainers said
    yourname2000 saidI think people confuse "Parade" with "March".

    People march in protest ("This must change".) Parades are celebrations ("We won!" or "It's that time of year again!"). There's very little political stuff at the Santa Claus parade; the Rose Bowl parade, etc. Relatively little entertainment at the Million Man March.

    The Pride Parade started as a march. It's now a parade.

    I don't think today's parade is changing anyone's mind about gay people. But it's probably a great excuse to get drunk in public, lol. Our communities (gay and straight together) can use a few more of those, in my mind. But the serious issues of equal rights need to be discussed over a table rather than be written on banners in glitter.


    I can see that point of view.

    I think the real power Pride has is helping the individual gay men/women who attend feel acceptance. I still remember my first (and only) pride experience, it was great to see all those people there who loved themselves for who they were (and shirtless.)

    Really, that was the first day I became comfortable with being gay.

    Hu ha!


    In a way though, pride is just reinforcing the stereotypical other side of things and a close-minded identity completely on the other side from being straight. Pride tells us that to be accepted and gay, gays must have hot bodies, muscles, be sexually liberal, and be outwardly feminine.

    What if you are fat? Or have morals? Or are naturally masculine? How can you become "comfortable" with being gay when you are shown the most important values are your body, sexuality, leather, and femininity?

    What if you don't identify with those values? Well then you must be "self-hating"! icon_rolleyes.gif But how can people say that someone else is hating themselves when the self they know isn't naturally like these things?


    False, False. And false.

    You can be proud of whatever you are.

    Pride "tells" you nothing other than be proud of who you are. I have yet to see a Pride event where EVERYBODY is unbelievably hot, naked, immoral and having sex. You focus on a few and beat everyone to death with the same damn images. As I have said before - feel free to focus on any of the banks, lawfirms, politicians, radio stations, medical groups, immigration reform groups, softball leagues or squaredancers that ARE ALSO THERE and get off yer greased and lubricated leather studded soapbox already.
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    Jun 28, 2011 9:37 PM GMT
    shredcutback said
    Chainers said
    yourname2000 saidI think people confuse "Parade" with "March".

    People march in protest ("This must change".) Parades are celebrations ("We won!" or "It's that time of year again!"). There's very little political stuff at the Santa Claus parade; the Rose Bowl parade, etc. Relatively little entertainment at the Million Man March.

    The Pride Parade started as a march. It's now a parade.

    I don't think today's parade is changing anyone's mind about gay people. But it's probably a great excuse to get drunk in public, lol. Our communities (gay and straight together) can use a few more of those, in my mind. But the serious issues of equal rights need to be discussed over a table rather than be written on banners in glitter.


    I can see that point of view.

    I think the real power Pride has is helping the individual gay men/women who attend feel acceptance. I still remember my first (and only) pride experience, it was great to see all those people there who loved themselves for who they were (and shirtless.)

    Really, that was the first day I became comfortable with being gay.

    Hu ha!


    In a way though, pride is just reinforcing the stereotypical other side of things and a close-minded identity completely on the other side from being straight. Pride tells us that to be accepted and gay, gays must have hot bodies, muscles, be sexually liberal, and be outwardly feminine.

    What if you are fat? Or have morals? Or are naturally masculine? How can you become "comfortable" with being gay when you are shown the most important values are your body, sexuality, leather, and femininity?

    What if you don't identify with those values? Well then you must be "self-hating"! icon_rolleyes.gif But how can people say that someone else is hating themselves when the self they know isn't naturally like these things?


    "Gay" is a social construct. None of what you mentioned is genetically inherent to a homosexual male. These are all learned behaviors that very much represent the gay community.

    You don't have to participate in the gay community to have sex/ have relationships with men. It sounds to me like you're trying to force your beliefs unto others and have the community see things your way instead of the other way around. Sure, there is room for diverse opinions in our community (all colors of the rainbow), but if you dislike it so much, why be a part of it?