Come Out! Come Out! Wherever you are...

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    Jun 29, 2011 3:22 AM GMT
    Interesting article about the neccesity of coming out in the workplace.

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/06/28/mcnaught.gays.workplace/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

    Talk amongst yourselves.
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    Jun 29, 2011 3:28 AM GMT
    Great article, but it still doesn't address the issue of coming out to family and close friends; and that's usually the biggest fear of all.
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    Jun 29, 2011 11:02 AM GMT
    thats defiantly an interesting read....to bad what its suggesting is easier said than done -_- hmmph
  • silverfox

    Posts: 3178

    Jun 29, 2011 11:25 AM GMT
    Suecer4 saidInteresting article about the neccesity of coming out in the workplace.


    Talk amongst yourselves.


    First off, curious what the OP thinks of the subject he brings up for all of us to discuss?

    Second.... "Necessity"? Necessity for whom? Who has the right to decide when the right time for any individual to come out (if at all)? IMHO....no one!

    And the definition of coming out? The need for a formal declaration?

    Once again, IMHO people like Anderson Cooper, and Exec Andy Cohen of Bravo have done more to live a gay lifestyle without the "drama" of the "big reveal". They are not pimping books, or trying to sell music based on coming out.

    And they are doing their jobs just fine, and living their lives to what appears..the fullest. GAY doesn't define who they are...but gay is a part of who they are.

  • jlly_rnchr

    Posts: 1759

    Jun 29, 2011 11:26 AM GMT
    I don't see it as a necessity. All for some more accurate numbers and polls? No way.

    I don't worry about any of my peers at work. In fact, I know for a fact I'm not the only gay guy in my lab. I worry about my director, who's a 67 year-old Chinese woman, and has trouble grasping what many would consider commonplace.
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    Jun 29, 2011 11:28 AM GMT
    I don't see why anyone should feel the need to announce their sexuality to ALL of their co-workers. In fact --guilty pleasure-- I love to see people trip all over themselves once they pluck the courage to ask me myself.icon_wink.gif

    With me, it has a habit of happening all by itself without a big announcement, not to be followed by a pride procession, or a show at 12. I'm there to work, not discuss my private life. Anyways you can basically tell that the cold mean bitch down the hall doesn't want to hear about your weekend with your boyfriend anymore than she/he wants to hear about anybody else's, because hers SUCKED and she's single!
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    Jun 29, 2011 12:59 PM GMT
    silverfox1 said
    Suecer4 saidInteresting article about the neccesity of coming out in the workplace.

    Talk amongst yourselves.

    First off, curious what the OP thinks of the subject he brings up for all of us to discuss?

    Second.... "Necessity"? Necessity for whom? Who has the right to decide when the right time for any individual to come out (if at all)? IMHO....no one!

    And the definition of coming out? The need for a formal declaration?

    Once again, IMHO people like Anderson Cooper, and Exec Andy Cohen of Bravo have done more to live a gay lifestyle without the "drama" of the "big reveal". They are not pimping books, or trying to sell music based on coming out.

    And they are doing their jobs just fine, and living their lives to what appears..the fullest. GAY doesn't define who they are...but gay is a part of who they are.

    I think the article is trying to say that being closeted on the job reduces work effectiveness, whereas being out aids it. As well as makes the individual happier overall, and more stable in the job. And therein lies the "necessity" since he ties it to work performance & success.

    But the author does not seem to mention that such a happy ending is at best situational, and entirely under the control of the employer. Many of the job discrimination protections for gays in the US have been removed in recent years, or the laws blocked from passage (and we all know by whom).

    Fine to come out if you have a good boss, bad if you have or come under a boss who can legally fire you for being gay, for which you have no recourse under the law. Hell, some State courts have ruled it's constitutional for a landlord to evict you from your apartment for being gay, and your job is no more secure, except in some limited jurisdictions.

    So instead of necessity I would say preferable to come out, but only if one's overall employment interests are likely to be safeguarded. He really doesn't discuss that downside to coming out on the job.
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    Jun 29, 2011 1:32 PM GMT
    I get a kick out of the replies here. It seems like some people either still have some pent-up self hatred, or are willing to lie for their own benefit.

    Remember: JOBS ARE REPLACEABLE! Fear of being fired is no excuse to lie. If you get fired, AND if you're a good worker to begin with, you CAN find another job rather quickly. And anyway, why the fuck would someone (especially someone who's 'out' away from work) want to work for a bigoted employer? That makes no sense to me. By working for them, you're enabling them to continue being bigoted.

    So my opinion is, if you're out away from work, you're just a self-centered liar if you stay closeted at work.
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    Jun 29, 2011 1:33 PM GMT
    Rodcet saidI don't see why anyone should feel the need to announce their sexuality to ALL of their co-workers. In fact --guilty pleasure-- I love to see people trip all over themselves once they pluck the courage to ask me myself.icon_wink.gif

    With me, it has a habit of happening all by itself without a big announcement, not to be followed by a pride procession, or a show at 12. I'm there to work, not discuss my private life. Anyways you can basically tell that the cold mean bitch down the hall doesn't want to hear about your weekend with your boyfriend anymore than she/he wants to hear about anybody else's, because hers SUCKED and she's single!


    Yeah I really think this is more or less a private issue and not something to be made a spectacle of. I really don't think it's anyone's business what I do in the bedroom nor do I think it should be something that I announce to a group of people.
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    Jun 29, 2011 1:37 PM GMT
    having come out as a 5 Year Old, and paying the price for doing so from such a young age, in the long run by the time I was a teenager, was extremely liberating. Yet I have also now lived long enough to know my sexuality does not define me as a whole. shame they did not see that when I was 5.
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    Jun 29, 2011 1:44 PM GMT
    True_blue_aussie saidhaving come out as a 5 Year Old, ...
    tai-chi-too-much-emphasis-on-energy.jpg
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    Jun 29, 2011 1:50 PM GMT
    paulflexes said
    True_blue_aussie saidhaving come out as a 5 Year Old, ...
    tai-chi-too-much-emphasis-on-energy.jpg


    A fox smells it's own sent then. Your hate is also blinding.

    One has talked about this many time over the many years I have been here at RJ.

    Dew to the fact I was molested, and I was to freely talk about this one day with one of my uncles, and when the shit hit the fan, and I refused so see the wrong in it (at that time). Not only was I shipped away from home for a year, to remove me from the situation, I was also punished, brutalised for my stance, and treated as if i was in the wrong too. The fact I refused to step down at such a young age must just show not only did I have bigger balls than you from such a young age, but many others here too.

    You can tell a lie, and if people belive it, and it's still a lie. Just as if you speak the truth and people don't belive it, the truth is still the truth; your hate is blinding you to the truthicon_wink.gif

    So suck it up princess.
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    Jun 29, 2011 1:59 PM GMT
    It's an interesting article,but it's riddled with misconceptions and naivite. One must understand that not all business entities are alike, i.,e., while others are more tolerant and accepting of alternative lifestiles, others simply have not caught up. More importantly, while your colleagues might be completely accepting, your "boss" or the person who makes those crucial decisions about your career progression, compensation, merit bonuses, etc., might not be. Don't kid yourselves: corporate decisions about you are generally made without 100% transparency (believe me, when I provide legal advice to my clients, that advice does not reach the level below senior VP). At bottom, we're all fungible. One must carefully determine whether coming out is worth potentially destroying his career. Does feeling good about your sexual identity outweigh the risks of potentially never moving up the corporate ladder? By the way, just because you're not out does not mean you're lying about anything. If no one asks whether one is gay--and I submit that it would be utterly presumptuous of someone to ask, especially in a professional corporate environment--then we don't have to tell if we don't want to. In a perfect world, it would be nice to be "out". But this world is not perfect...not yet, at least.
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    Jun 29, 2011 1:59 PM GMT


    "Dew to the fact I was molested, and I was to freely talk about this one day with one of my uncles, and when the shit hit the fan, and I refused so see the wrong in it (at that time)."


    That's not coming out as a gay person, that's a little child telling an adult he's been sexually molested and doesn't know yet that it's WRONG.

    -Doug
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    Jun 29, 2011 2:13 PM GMT
    meninlove said

    "Dew to the fact I was molested, and I was to freely talk about this one day with one of my uncles, and when the shit hit the fan, and I refused so see the wrong in it (at that time)."


    That's not coming out as a gay person, that's a little child telling an adult he's been sexually molested and doesn't know yet that it's WRONG.

    -Doug


    Were you ashamed to use my name?

    Oh no I come out, because even though I now look back at it all, and know with all my heart, how very wrong it all was. I was to know I liked cock, never forgot it, never got over it, and could not wait to start to have sex. I was adamant from a young age, that I would never ever get married; not even the Mormons could cure me; but they too did punish me.

    My misunderstanding was, I perceived sex as love, that screwed up my life for a number of years in my youth, until I was to learn lust was not love; it's amazing I survived the 1980s, because I had so much bloody sex pre AIDS looking for love, and I was a popular young man too.

    I got told as a little boy because of my stance way back then in the 1960s that I would grow up to wear flowers on my underpants, and shit like that, but I never did have flowers on my underpants. In many ways it's why the bullies here can't hurt me, because I had to man up from such a young age; the things I was to endure because of my stance. But it gave me great joy a few years ago, to tell a few of them that child abusers now come lower than poofters; thus I now look down on them.
  • JayneCobb

    Posts: 709

    Jun 29, 2011 2:15 PM GMT
    paulflexes said JOBS ARE REPLACEABLE!


    In this economy they certainly are not replaceable.
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    Jun 29, 2011 2:27 PM GMT
    I love that thought I hear so many of us use- 'Heterosexuals don't announce their sexuality, so why should I?' I've never gone into work, gathered everyone around and said, "I want to let you know, I'm gay!" But at the same time, I am not going to hide that detail. When the break room discussion is about weekend plans with spouses and boyfriends/girlfriends, I am going to say what my boyfriend and I are doing for the weekend. Straight people at work are going to say things like, "I won't be in tomorrow because by wife is going into the hospital for surgery." If my partner is going into surgery and I won't be in the next day, I'm not making up some other reason that sounds like a legitimate excuse to be out of work, I am telling it like it is. So stop using that 'heterosexuals don't announce their sexuality' excuse. It is not the same thing. Stop using that 'you shouldn't discuss your personal life at work,' excuse because that only seems to apply to us. Really, what work environment do you work in where there is not some discussion of personal lives in the break room or at the water cooler? If you are not comfortable coming out at work or it is a place not open to it, then just say that. But don't try to spin like you are just acting the same way straight people do.
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    Jun 29, 2011 2:33 PM GMT
    So many gay people want to make it clear they are diffrent, yet get pissed when they are not treated the same.icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Jun 29, 2011 2:37 PM GMT
    DOMINUS saidDoes feeling good about your sexual identity outweigh the risks of potentially never moving up the corporate ladder?
    I'll go out on a limb and say yes...but it has nothing to do with sexual identity. It has to do with being able to speak freely about aspects of your personal life that get brought up at work by straight people without so much as a 2nd thought...examples below.

    DOMINUS saidBy the way, just because you're not out does not mean you're lying about anything. If no one asks whether one is gay--and I submit that it would be utterly presumptive of someone to ask, especially in a professional corporate environment--then we don't have to tell if we don't want to.
    Employee 1: "Hey Bob, you bringing your wife to the company picnic next week?"
    Employee 2: "I'm not married Jim, but thanks."
    Employee 1: "Oh ok. You bringing your girlfriend?"
    Employee 2: "Nope, don't have a girlfriend either."
    Employee 1: "No wife, no girlfriend? True bachelor! lol I guess being single has its advantages."
    Employee 2: [insert a reply without lying - it's impossible if you're closeted and dating a guy]."

    Now let's try the same conversation with an "out" person.

    Employee 1: "Hey Bob, you bringing your wife to the company picnic next week?"
    Employee 2: "Sorta, but he's not a she."
    Employee 1: "LOL Oh ok. Looking forward to meeting him!"

    See, wasn't that easy?

    DOMINUS saidIn a perfect world, it would be nice to be "out". But this world is not perfect...not yet, at least.
    The world is only as perfect as the people make it. Until more people grow the balls to come out at work, companies will continue to oppress gays and keep them silent. Once gays start standing up for who they are, companies will realize they're losing their best workers; and money talks.
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    Jun 29, 2011 2:38 PM GMT
    True_blue_aussie said
    meninlove said

    "Dew to the fact I was molested, and I was to freely talk about this one day with one of my uncles, and when the shit hit the fan, and I refused so see the wrong in it (at that time)."


    That's not coming out as a gay person, that's a little child telling an adult he's been sexually molested and doesn't know yet that it's WRONG.

    -Doug


    Were you ashamed to use my name?



    Nope. It wasn't necessary, as anyone seeing dew instead of due knows it's you.

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    Jun 29, 2011 2:44 PM GMT
    JayneCobb said
    paulflexes said JOBS ARE REPLACEABLE!


    In this economy they certainly are not replaceable.
    If you're a good worker with a positive attitude, yes they are.
    I've been temporarily homeless due to coming out at a job.
    That's much more tolerable than the misery of constantly making up lies to keep a job.
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    Jun 29, 2011 5:22 PM GMT
    paulflexes said
    JayneCobb said
    paulflexes said JOBS ARE REPLACEABLE!


    In this economy they certainly are not replaceable.
    If you're a good worker with a positive attitude, yes they are.
    I've been temporarily homeless due to coming out at a job.
    That's much more tolerable than the misery of constantly making up lies to keep a job.


    I admire your passion, Paul, and I appreciate that you took the time to dissect my previous proposition. I don't agree with your analysis and conclusion and it would take me several pages to tell you why, but this is not the place for me to do it. You clearly are a man of courage and I'm sorry that you're temporarily homeless because of your decision to come out at work. That being said--and don't be offended by what I'm about to say--there's a bit of naivite that's manifest in your statements. Nevertheless, I admire your passion, courage and determination. I wish some of us could afford to do what you had done.
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    Jun 29, 2011 9:21 PM GMT
    meninlove said
    True_blue_aussie said
    meninlove said

    "Dew to the fact I was molested, and I was to freely talk about this one day with one of my uncles, and when the shit hit the fan, and I refused so see the wrong in it (at that time)."


    That's not coming out as a gay person, that's a little child telling an adult he's been sexually molested and doesn't know yet that it's WRONG.

    -Doug


    Were you ashamed to use my name?



    Nope. It wasn't necessary, as anyone seeing dew instead of due knows it's you.



    So then why did you feel a need to use ones Handel this time around, just being aggressive, manipulating even; heavens to murgatroid.icon_rolleyes.gif

    But you knew what one meant, and thats all that matters.

    Sorry I was to dispel your myth one was only a little boy calling out for help. 45 years, I have been promoting the right to be homosexual, and the love and acceptance my life is full of now. The battles I endured from such a young age, battles grown men still don't have the balls to take on.
  • shoelessj

    Posts: 511

    Jun 30, 2011 12:23 AM GMT

    I think the article is trying to say that being closeted on the job reduces work effectiveness, whereas being out aids it. As well as makes the individual happier overall, and more stable in the job. And therein lies the "necessity" since he ties it to work performance & success.

    But the author does not seem to mention that such a happy ending is at best situational, and entirely under the control of the employer. Many of the job discrimination protections for gays in the US have been removed in recent years, or the laws blocked from passage (and we all know by whom).

    Fine to come out if you have a good boss, bad if you have or come under a boss who can legally fire you for being gay, for which you have no recourse under the law. Hell, some State courts have ruled it's constitutional for a landlord to evict you from your apartment for being gay, and your job is no more secure, except in some limited jurisdictions.

    So instead of necessity I would say preferable to come out, but only if one's overall employment interests are likely to be safeguarded. He really doesn't discuss that downside to coming out on the job.[/quote]

    The most thoughtful, and one of the few intelligent, replies to this thread.

    As for those who say, 'what i do in the bedroom isn't anyone else's business,' yadda yadda yadda, it's not what you do in the bedroom, it's what you do for dinner, it's what you do on the weekend, it's what you do at the movies, it's what you do for vacation, etc. Your straight colleagues don't talk about how they fuck, but they do talk, without fear or without looking over their shoulders, about where they went for dinner last night and with whom, what movie they saw last weekend and with whom, where they are going on vacation this summer and with whom.

    Your colleagues at work might not put pictures of them fucking their opposite sex partners on their desks, but they do have pictures of them on vacation, having fun, at their wedding, with their kids, etc. Your straight work colleagues don't edit themselves and they don't worry about what pronouns they use, etc....

    That's what this all is about!
  • shoelessj

    Posts: 511

    Jun 30, 2011 12:24 AM GMT
    Iceblink saidI love that thought I hear so many of us use- 'Heterosexuals don't announce their sexuality, so why should I?' I've never gone into work, gathered everyone around and said, "I want to let you know, I'm gay!" But at the same time, I am not going to hide that detail. When the break room discussion is about weekend plans with spouses and boyfriends/girlfriends, I am going to say what my boyfriend and I are doing for the weekend. Straight people at work are going to say things like, "I won't be in tomorrow because by wife is going into the hospital for surgery." If my partner is going into surgery and I won't be in the next day, I'm not making up some other reason that sounds like a legitimate excuse to be out of work, I am telling it like it is. So stop using that 'heterosexuals don't announce their sexuality' excuse. It is not the same thing. Stop using that 'you shouldn't discuss your personal life at work,' excuse because that only seems to apply to us. Really, what work environment do you work in where there is not some discussion of personal lives in the break room or at the water cooler? If you are not comfortable coming out at work or it is a place not open to it, then just say that. But don't try to spin like you are just acting the same way straight people do.


    YES! That's what i'm sayin' too!
    Great response.