Religion, sigh..

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    Jun 29, 2011 8:37 AM GMT
    As of late, mainly today, religion has really been bothering me. I do not in essence believe in uppercase god, but I do believe there are things in this life we are not meant to understand.

    Nonetheless I am agnostic, with this said I cannot comprehend the ignorance often expressed towards the gay community from almost every religion, it's offensive and down right arrogant.

    I suppose I am simply venting, but I would like to hear, if there are any religious gay men on this site of there experiences, may they be good or bad, and why you chose to be religious.

    Warning, I may try and argue, not because I want to offend you, and I apologize in advance if I do, but arguing in the best way for me to understand.
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    Jun 29, 2011 8:39 AM GMT
    lupsided saidAs of late, mainly today, religion has really been bothering me.


    Why has religion been bothering you?

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    Jun 29, 2011 8:44 AM GMT
    TigerTim said
    lupsided saidAs of late, mainly today, religion has really been bothering me.


    Why has religion been bothering you?


    I'm guessing something along the lines of:

    gay-execution-iran.jpg

    god-hates-you.jpg

    dutch-woman-hanged-iran.jpg

    If Hawaii's anything like Seattle, I'm sure the OP has seen these types:

    Militant_Atheism_by_MrVorhias.png

    Express%2BNews,%2BPakistan%27s%2Bparamil
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    Jun 29, 2011 8:47 AM GMT
    Well it started off with some random comments from people around me explaining I need god in my life because I'm gay, then it brought back 2 memories of when I was in highschool when a kid told me the devil was inside me for not believing in God because I stopped once my dad died.

    And then, which I know is a lame reason, but I was watching glee, and it was the episode where they all sing religion, and I understand freedom of speech and religion and what not, but it bothered me the way media portrays the idea of not belieivng in god as being such a alternative lifestyle. Also, the lack of empathy for the struggles of a homosexual attempting to grasp the nature behind religion in general.

    Granted I know it was just a show, and that's not important, the point is I see this kind of thing all the time. Literally today when I was working religion was brought up, because there is a sign in my staff duty office (i'm in the army) that says God bless our troops, welcome home thank the lord, or something to that extent, and I made a comment about it, not even being offensive and it stirred up a debate.

    I am not one to let my beliefs and opinions get tossed away so I defended my opinion with proper arguements such as church and state, and the fact that not all soldiers are religious, or fall under the same religion, and it would be appropriate for that aspect to be respected.

    People assume because I do not believe in God, or rather I do not find religion plasubile, I am not one to say there isn't a god, but I don't care either way, my point is I'm not a freaking bad person because of it. I feel like a triple minority and it's annoying, being a gay soldier who also is agnostic/atheist.
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    Jun 29, 2011 8:49 AM GMT
    Oh and the west boro baptist church is my mortal enemy, like seriously not a day goes by I don't think about the horrible things I wish upon all of them.
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    Jun 29, 2011 9:08 AM GMT
    I've certainly been accused of being a militant atheist, but this is largely because I have contradicted opinions I find to be abhorrent.

    I think when people talk about "God" it's often a placeholder. In the situations you described, "God" seems to be a metaphor for "luck" or "the fates" or "I wish that this were the case". There's nothing wrong with that; it's when it becomes "God told me this, so...".

    May I recommend the following book? Godless Morality by the former Bishop of Edinburgh. His thesis is that the introduction of God into ethical debates is so problematic as to be worthless [I think he is motivated by the observation that modern theologians (those who are not atheists) have a conception of God very far removed from the popular conception].

    The reality is that the very best of modern Christian thought is founded on Humanism, which while a product of Christianity [Hume and so on] is an entirely worthy secular system of ethics.

    I know plenty of people who attend religious services because they like the community or because they like the music. It is the pretensions to ethics that are not justified by humanist considerations that I think is the place to debate with religious people.
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    Jun 29, 2011 9:26 AM GMT
    I think most everyone's been through this.. I wouldnt say you're that much of a minority anymore.... I myself cant sit through much of any religion anymore due to some bad experiences.... philosophy I can handle most of the day though...

    most ppl I know who moved away from religion usually didnt drop most spiritual beliefs, I myself am hesitant to drop all beliefs in stuff I can't explain or perceive... but I refuse to take a stance on the subject because a religion perscribes me to do so.... so usually when people say stuff like "thank god" and all that stuff I dont really mind, I still say those things myself...

    I get seriously wound up though if people begin to claim that god told them one thing or the other (believe you me, I have actually heard ppl say that god told them stuff) ... most religions wind up arguing over what "god wants" or "god says" and so thats where I draw the line...
  • creature

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    Jun 29, 2011 1:31 PM GMT
    I hope you don't mind me responding even though I'm not religious anymore.

    I was introduced to religion because I was enrolled in a 7th Day Adventist school between Kindergarten through the 5th grade. And in that time period I identified as a 7th Day Adventist.

    But once I left to go to a public school and accepting that I'm not keeping the Sabbath holy (never did since I watched tv before sunset), I just called myself a Christian. And I have done so until recently when I became a Quaker. Though now I'm transitioning to Non-theism.

    My guess, based on your last sentence, is you want to find out why some gay men are religious even though some major religious sects condemn homosexuality? Is that correct?

    If so, then the reason is because religion is a personal experience. It doesn't matter how a pastor, an Imam, or a Rabbi interprets the religious text. Ultimately it is between the person and their relationship with God. A gay man may find some words in a religious text that speaks ill of homosexuality, but if they believe God is love and loves them for who they are, they will ignore that part and focus on the larger picture of what that holy book presents.

    It's about interpretation.

    For example, you can look back at the slaves in America and wonder why so many turned to Christianity, despite that being the religion of their oppressors who used the Bible to justify the institution of slavery.

    But when the slaves read or heard the words of the Bible, they interpreted it differently, as did the religious abolitionists.

    You can have one book, the Bible, and have it produce so many religious variations. Why? Because it is interpreted in so many ways.

    I believe this is why some gays are still religious. They see a God or Gods who love them for who they are.
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    Jun 29, 2011 2:50 PM GMT
    I even more so than Christian was educated at a Private SDA church school, my indoctrination though was much more extensive since I attended that school on the campus of an SDA University from 3rd grade through my freshman year of College.

    The result for me is total distaste for religion, particularly for the 'several' religions who claim like the SDA's that they and they alone have the exclusive "bible truth", and all must believe as they do or suffer not being one of "gods chosen 'believers' ".

    If god is a god of love, his followers certainly do misrepresent him on this planet !!! LOL !!

    Christian Religions base themselves on a very inconsistent and violent book of strange stories, that make Hollywood appear meek and mild.

    I just cannot believe in such stuff.
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    Jun 29, 2011 6:11 PM GMT
    creature saidI hope you don't mind me responding even though I'm not religious anymore.

    I was introduced to religion because I was enrolled in a 7th Day Adventist school between Kindergarten through the 5th grade. And in that time period I identified as a 7th Day Adventist.

    But once I left to go to a public school and accepting that I'm not keeping the Sabbath holy (never did since I watched tv before sunset), I just called myself a Christian. And I have done so until recently when I became a Quaker. Though now I'm transitioning to Non-theism.

    My guess, based on your last sentence, is you want to find out why some gay men are religious even though some major religious sects condemn homosexuality? Is that correct?

    If so, then the reason is because religion is a personal experience. It doesn't matter how a pastor, an Imam, or a Rabbi interprets the religious text. Ultimately it is between the person and their relationship with God. A gay man may find some words in a religious text that speaks ill of homosexuality, but if they believe God is love and loves them for who they are, they will ignore that part and focus on the larger picture of what that holy book presents.

    It's about interpretation.

    For example, you can look back at the slaves in America and wonder why so many turned to Christianity, despite that being the religion of their oppressors who used the Bible to justify the institution of slavery.

    But when the slaves read or heard the words of the Bible, they interpreted it differently, as did the religious abolitionists.

    You can have one book, the Bible, and have it produce so many religious variations. Why? Because it is interpreted in so many ways.

    I believe this is why some gays are still religious. They see a God or Gods who love them for who they are.


    I was raised SDA and I would say that nominally I still am but I don't agree with a lot of the official stances nor do I claim to have all of the answers. Ever heard of kinship?
  • creature

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    Jun 29, 2011 6:32 PM GMT
    Mocktwinkie,

    I've heard of that word, but not in the religious sense.

    As I said, I was really only a 7th Day Adventist through the 5th grade and my parents are not 7th Day Adventists. So I'm not familiar with their terms or official stances.

    So what is kinship?
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    Jun 29, 2011 6:37 PM GMT
    creature saidMocktwinkie,

    I've heard of that word, but not in the religious sense.

    As I said, I was really only a 7th Day Adventist through the 5th grade and my parents are not 7th Day Adventists. So I'm not familiar with their terms or official stances.

    So what is kinship?


    The SDA church is less vociferously against homosexuality than most denomenations, but when pressed they will agree with the general body of evangelical churches that it is a "sin" and resort to some silly argument about how the reason everyone is alive is because of a man and a woman being able to procreate.

    Which word are you referring to? Kinship is an LGBT support and activist group of seventh-day adventists and most of the members are LGBT.
  • creature

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    Jun 29, 2011 6:50 PM GMT
    I was thinking of family with the word kinship icon_redface.gif Never heard of the LGBT group.

    I'm not surprised the 7th Day Adventist church is less vocal about its beliefs. The sermons at the church are not as loud and dramatic as other denominations.
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    Jun 29, 2011 8:02 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie said
    creature saidMocktwinkie,

    I've heard of that word, but not in the religious sense.

    As I said, I was really only a 7th Day Adventist through the 5th grade and my parents are not 7th Day Adventists. So I'm not familiar with their terms or official stances.

    So what is kinship?


    The SDA church is less vociferously against homosexuality than most denomenations, but when pressed they will agree with the general body of evangelical churches that it is a "sin" and resort to some silly argument about how the reason everyone is alive is because of a man and a woman being able to procreate.

    Which word are you referring to? Kinship is an LGBT support and activist group of seventh-day adventists and most of the members are LGBT.



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    No the SDA Church doesn't go public with its distaste for Gays, but don't even try to be open about it at the SDA University Campus Church where I was raised going to church and school, I've never heard of Kinship either, Read any article that has been printed in their SDA Church Paper the "Review and Herald" and you certainly won't find any sympathy there. They are also of the belief that god can heal you of the sin of homosexuality, that its a choice, not an issue of birth. At least this is what I've found among the many Church members I know of. I moved away from that SDA University town 29 years ago and purposely stay away.
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    Jun 29, 2011 8:55 PM GMT
    realifedad said
    mocktwinkie said
    creature saidMocktwinkie,

    I've heard of that word, but not in the religious sense.

    As I said, I was really only a 7th Day Adventist through the 5th grade and my parents are not 7th Day Adventists. So I'm not familiar with their terms or official stances.

    So what is kinship?


    The SDA church is less vociferously against homosexuality than most denomenations, but when pressed they will agree with the general body of evangelical churches that it is a "sin" and resort to some silly argument about how the reason everyone is alive is because of a man and a woman being able to procreate.

    Which word are you referring to? Kinship is an LGBT support and activist group of seventh-day adventists and most of the members are LGBT.



    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    No the SDA Church doesn't go public with its distaste for Gays, but don't even try to be open about it at the SDA University Campus Church where I was raised going to church and school, I've never heard of Kinship either, Read any article that has been printed in their SDA Church Paper the "Review and Herald" and you certainly won't find any sympathy there. They are also of the belief that god can heal you of the sin of homosexuality, that its a choice, not an issue of birth. At least this is what I've found among the many Church members I know of. I moved away from that SDA University town 29 years ago and purposely stay away.


    Do keep in mind your experiences were 29 yrs ago. I assure you that sentiments are far less anti-gay than they were even back then.