Masculinity

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    Jul 01, 2011 11:53 PM GMT
    Whats the obsession in the gay community regarding masculinity? Is there inherent value?
  • mickey2012

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    Jul 01, 2011 11:57 PM GMT
    The focus seems to be on physical masculinity (whatever the standard is).

    To me, a guy is masculine enough as long as he is loyal and responsible.icon_confused.gif
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    Jul 02, 2011 12:19 AM GMT
    Can you be more specific please?...
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    Jul 02, 2011 12:22 AM GMT
    [quote][cite]mickey2012 said[/cite]The focus seems to be on physical masculinity (whatever the standard is).

    To me, a guy is masculine enough as long as he is loyal and responsible.icon_confused.gif[/quote

    I agree, that is a real man right there, most are little boys pussying out like a little bitch. They can have all the hairy body, swagger, attitude. Guess what there just hiding in a shell. Let's see one really man up.

    Glad I have my man.
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    Jul 02, 2011 12:45 AM GMT
    atlboy713 saidWhats the obsession in the gay community regarding masculinity?
    Because we like men and men are generally associated with masculinity?
    Just a hunch...
  • an_dy

    Posts: 34

    Jul 02, 2011 12:53 AM GMT
    I notice it's not masculinity per say...but the masculine swagger. A lot of guys confuse ideal masculinity (valor, courage, values, strength, etc) and think just any guy with a mohawk and tats is considered a "butch" guy, where the reality of it is I've seen a lot of butch queens. icon_rolleyes.gif

    So...people should ask what do they consider masculinity? Because I've met a lot of guys who are not exactly a strong man, yet are probably more masculine than these muscled queens people obsess over (let's be real here, we've all met these guys who walk like Tarzan yet speaks like Jane, so I don't wanna hear anything about no "queer theory on gender identity").
  • DrobUA

    Posts: 1331

    Jul 02, 2011 12:59 AM GMT
    ^ hahaha walk like tarzan and speak like jane..

    Yea it's already been said but most gay guys are attracted to guys BECAUSE they are attracted to masculinity. (Hence the gay obsession with straight men) So naturally many gay men want to be considered masculine. It's the same reason an Ape beats his chest. The alpha dog leads the pack.
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    Jul 02, 2011 1:01 AM GMT

    There is inherent value. Masculinity is a trait that means strength, capability, and authority. Back in the cave man days it was the brawniest and most bellicose man to lead the troop and now of course, presently, men wear suits to create the illusion of broad shoulders and a protruding chest. At our very core, I think an ideal is a masculine man, but that's just deep down mental stuff. Deep down mentally we may not want to bathe, but we still do. In these modern times, your man is not a nomad and does not have to fend of attacks from rivals for the position of alpha male. This obsession with masculinity you speak of, I don't see that.

    Maybe on the fringes with the muscle daddies and S&M crowd, but just in general: toned guys in tight shirts and funny glasses is hardly what I'd call a marker of gay masculine obsession.

    I think by masculine, you mean MUSCLE? If so, that's kind of a different conversation, but, muscle is pleasing to the eye and gay men do enjoy aesthetics, just normally, face value is of importance. I don't think you can call that an obsession either. The old dog and pony show, and you know it has burn out; most guys wind up with something a tad more practical than there champagne taste would demand.

    So maybe an ideal, a fancy, a want, or a dream, but masculinity is not an obsession among gays.
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    Jul 02, 2011 1:06 AM GMT
    Seems there's a lot of threads these days about this.

    I don't know why everyone's so hung up over definitions. But being masculine is not about:

    Being tall (that's genetics)
    Weighing over 200 lbs. (genetics too, or you probably just eat too much)
    Having chest hair (see being tall)
    Being a loud, obnoxious blowhard (that's a deficiency, not a virtue)

    That said, I do believe the above bulletpoints are precisely how lots of people define masculinity. Then again, lots of people are stupid.

    It's not about muscles, either. I know guys who have muscles but are pussies. . . that is, when the chips are down, they're gone. You can't count on them.

    How about this instead. . . I found this through Google. . . it's intended to be the definition of a mensch, but it should suffice for masculinity too:

    Leo Rosten, the Yiddish maven and author of The Joys of Yiddish, defines mensch this way: Someone to admire and emulate, someone of noble character. The key to being “a real mensch” is nothing less than character, rectitude, dignity, a sense of what is right, responsible, decorous.

    Not a bad definition for masculine, either.
  • Lincsbear

    Posts: 2605

    Jul 02, 2011 1:11 AM GMT
    Yes,there is.I really love all masculine things and values(physical fitness and hardihood,loyalty,straight speaking and acting,honour,etc.)so I think that`s why I am attracted to the guys that embody those features ie masculine men.These values are greatly to be admired.
    In the wider gay community there does seem a fear, often not spoken about,of being labelled feminine or girly;an implicit belief that femininity is inferior to masculinity.Maybe this is taken from wider straight society;a form of compliance?
  • tautomer

    Posts: 1010

    Jul 02, 2011 1:17 AM GMT
    It's hard to differentiate between individual prefrence for masculine traits and group-think perpetuated attraction to masculinity. In a community like this, there is going to be a much higher regard held to masculine apperence and behavior. That is because that is what this community is about. Despite the fact that most individuals here are naturally attracted to that, it's going to be heightened by the community's opinion itself.

    I know for a fact that because of the types of gay communities I have been in, and put myself in, I sink into a group-think based on masculinity a lot more. While I personally am put off by very feminine looking guys, and to a lesser extent, feminine acting guys, being in a community such as this is going to make me dislike it even more. I have the awareness that group-think will sway my opinion. Each group has an ideal. Because of the very nature of this group, the ideal is hyper-masculinity. That is the ideal goal, and others will drive to seek that position. Those that have it, are highly revered.

    So, it really is a combination of the majority statistic of individual prefrences for masculinity, further magnified by an established "pecking order" of sorts to have high masculinity. Thus leads to a community obsession of sorts.
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    Jul 02, 2011 1:31 AM GMT
    The term "Gay " does not properly differentiate between personalities types. There is a huge schism between "gurls" that inhabit men's bodies and masculine men that are attracted to other masculine men or to gurls. So there is a subversive heterosexual thing underpinning some gay behavior and also purely homosexual attraction all going under the gay banner. I call
    Masculine guys into mascline guys Homos and you will not find Lady Gaga or Cher on their iPods .

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    Jul 02, 2011 1:36 AM GMT
    to me masculinity is dealing with your own shit, and not whining and being a dramatist. don't really have the patience and hardly the restraint to deal with the opposite. icon_razz.gif
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    Jul 02, 2011 1:43 AM GMT
    I guess my question is... why aren't more gay guys willing to take on the extra responsibility of being "masculine"? Many lesbians and straight females are more masculine than most of the gay guys I've met. In fact, when I first started hooking up with openly gay guys, I started questioning my sexuality for the 2nd time. icon_neutral.gif

    Again, I think "Gender Identity" is a HUGE part of the sexuality discussion that has been lumped into "gay" by default, but causes fem guys and masc guys to fight each other for no reason. Maybe, this will be explored more with the transgender movement because as a gay guy, I don't identify with them at all, though I do empathize.

    Having dated girls, I would rather pretend to be straight and deal with the package females bring to the table than to deal with the baggage and emotional cluster of 90% of the fem guys I've met. In fact, now that Lady Gaga has arrived, I would counter that there is a "Diva" movement in the gay community instead of an "obsession with masculinity". Divas are entertaining but they are generally single. And there is a reason for that.
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    Jul 02, 2011 1:45 AM GMT
    pchoc1 saidThere's a difference between masculinity and posturing.



    BINGO. Posturing is just an act. True masculinity has nothing to do with posturing. In fact, it should be devoid of posturing. This is why I want to throw up when I see a hot guy with that pic of him wearing leather, smoking a cigar and all bowed up like a fucking ape. It screams insecurity.
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    Jul 02, 2011 1:55 AM GMT
    gays are gays though, its never going to change
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    Jul 02, 2011 2:38 AM GMT
    Has been posted in similar threads here before but bears repeating.

    "The True Gentleman is the man whose conduct proceeds from good will and an acute sense of propriety, and whose self-control is equal to all emergencies; who does not make the poor man conscious of his poverty, the obscure man of his obscurity, or any man of his inferiority or deformity; who is himself humbled when necessity compels him to humble another; who does not flatter wealth, cringe before power, or boast of his own possessions or achievements; who speaks with frankness but always with sincerity and sympathy; whose deed follows his word; who thinks of the rights and feelings of others rather than his own; and who appears well in any company, a man with whom honor is sacred and virtue safe."

    -John Walter Wayland


    I try to live up to this but fail daily. icon_neutral.gif
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    Jul 02, 2011 2:44 AM GMT
    DrobUA said^ hahaha walk like tarzan and speak like jane..

    ....


    hahaha, ... *gold*
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    Jul 02, 2011 3:51 AM GMT
    Oh gosh, this is a topic that's guaranteed to turn into a war....

    The obsession with masculinity has to do with guys who are a bit insecure with themselves..... the whole "masc" vs "femme" thing is so contrived, involves a ton of projection (onto the 'femme' guys).... really lame, the whole obsession....

    Where is the balance?
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    Jul 02, 2011 3:58 AM GMT
    atlboy713 saidWhats the obsession in the gay community regarding masculinity? Is there inherent value?


    I think a better question is what the obsession in the gay community regarding femininity is about, especially considering gay men are still men.

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    Jul 02, 2011 4:03 AM GMT
    DrobUA said^ hahaha walk like tarzan and speak like jane..

    Yea it's already been said but most gay guys are attracted to guys BECAUSE they are attracted to masculinity. (Hence the gay obsession with straight men) So naturally many gay men want to be considered masculine. It's the same reason an Ape beats his chest. The alpha dog leads the pack.


    Saying a guy is straight does not imply he is masculine. Being masculine isn't about sexual orientation.
  • austex85

    Posts: 572

    Jul 02, 2011 4:41 AM GMT
    most of the self-described "masculine" gay men are the biggest queens everrrr
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    Jul 02, 2011 8:44 AM GMT
    All these definitions of the values supposed to be inherent in masculinity - loyalty, courage, reliability, following up on promises, being considerate of others etc. - could equally apply to well rounded women. So I don't think we'll find our definition there.

    Hasn't masculinity always been defined by extreme difference to the stereotypical characteristics traditionally ascribed to women, and were therefore feared and loathed? Isn't that how homophobia originated - because straight men who saw women as inferior were sickened by the idea of female mannerisms or interests manifesting in other men and terrified they might find them within themselves?

    Many gay men have eroticized the hypermasculine symbols of authority - the policeman, army officer, well, any man in uniform really (except nurses because they're not 'real men'). They waste time ogling unattainable str8 men and put down the 'femme' gay guys and drag queens. But as RuPaul famously said "Your muscles are just as much drag as my frocks, honey" (or something like that).

    As we move into a new era the very idea of fixed genders has been shown to be a fallacy in many cases, Did you hear about the Canadian couple who refuse to tell people their baby's gender to spare him/her from the rigid gender socialization that usually ensues? Perhaps in the future we can all just accept ourselves as we are and feel comfortable with everyone else being who they are.

    As men and as gay men we still have a lot of evolving to do - let's enjoy the adventure together.
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    Jul 02, 2011 9:33 AM GMT
    mickey2012 saidThe focus seems to be on physical masculinity (whatever the standard is).

    To me, a guy is masculine enough as long as he is loyal and responsible.icon_confused.gif


    I wonder if people on here actually believe the shit they say
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    Jul 02, 2011 4:14 PM GMT
    Masculinity is a social construct. And constructs are perceived by individuals and appropriated within living via personal social contexts... So as we consider masculinity, femininity, and gender "roles," are we mindful of the sociological and psychological influences that supports our perspectives? Are you willing to think different and/ or learn different from your perspective as this is not an issue of absolute truth?