How China is "taking over Europe"

  • metta

    Posts: 39099

    Jul 02, 2011 12:39 AM GMT
    How China is "taking over Europe"

    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/europe/110630/germany-china-business-investment

    I wonder how we will be able to compete in the future?
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    Jul 02, 2011 4:40 AM GMT
    Maybe if we all stopped competing to outproduce one another, the whole world wouldnt be running out of everything
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    Jul 02, 2011 5:05 AM GMT
    Thats a joke, Islam is taking over Europe. 30% of reproductive age males in London and Marsailles. There won't be any cool places to film James Bond films in a generation.
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    Jul 02, 2011 5:06 AM GMT
    china : )
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    Jul 02, 2011 6:14 AM GMT
    Time to become a little unpopular and honest. China already owns the US lock, stock and barrel. They are building the $7.1 billion Oakland bridge in China and importing it to America (but it supposedly saved $400 million) They don't tell you about the jobs, taxes and investment that would have been made if the project had been kept in America. New York is using China to help renovate the subway and refurbish the Alexander Hamilton bridge.

    The article you linked to makes mention of the new Chinese plant in Germany. How many people know that China wants to develop 50 square miles in Idaho? (Oh, and the governor seems thrilled to have them in in his state.) They are also talking about going into Ohio and Michigan. This article links to newspapers and other if you are interested. http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/china-wants-to-construct-a-50-square-mile-self-sustaining-city-south-of-boise-idaho

    Basically, this is not news. China has already bought the world and we are just slow recognizing the facts.
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    Jul 02, 2011 7:25 AM GMT
    west77 saidTime to become a little unpopular and honest. China already owns the US lock, stock and barrel. They are building the $7.1 billion Oakland bridge in China and importing it to America (but it supposedly saved $400 million) They don't tell you about the jobs, taxes and investment that would have been made if the project had been kept in America. New York is using China to help renovate the subway and refurbish the Alexander Hamilton bridge.

    The article you linked to makes mention of the new Chinese plant in Germany. How many people know that China wants to develop 50 square miles in Idaho? (Oh, and the governor seems thrilled to have them in in his state.) They are also talking about going into Ohio and Michigan. This article links to newspapers and other if you are interested. http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/china-wants-to-construct-a-50-square-mile-self-sustaining-city-south-of-boise-idaho

    Basically, this is not news. China has already bought the world and we are just slow recognizing the facts.


    Actually quite the opposite - I think your views are popular, probably honest, but they're wrong. The idea that just because something is built somewhere else therefore destroys jobs locally is a silly one given that the money saved is just reallocated to more useful tasks.

    Of course, I have a vested interest here based on what we do, but the real money isn't in the commodities, and the production, it's in the innovation, development and ideas. Despite it's growing economic clout, on a per capita basis, China remains one of the poorest countries in the world. It's also useful to note that the fact that India and China are so far behind economically is actually what's unusual given that they were the ones persistently ahead in the past. It's also useful to note that the US remains the largest manufacturer in the world - and is likely to remain so for quite some time while China has many challenges ahead.
  • 10sboySF

    Posts: 32

    Jul 02, 2011 7:56 AM GMT
    west77 saidTime to become a little unpopular and honest. China already owns the US lock, stock and barrel. They are building the $7.1 billion Oakland bridge in China and importing it to America (but it supposedly saved $400 million) They don't tell you about the jobs, taxes and investment that would have been made if the project had been kept in America. New York is using China to help renovate the subway and refurbish the Alexander Hamilton bridge.

    The article you linked to makes mention of the new Chinese plant in Germany. How many people know that China wants to develop 50 square miles in Idaho? (Oh, and the governor seems thrilled to have them in in his state.) They are also talking about going into Ohio and Michigan. This article links to newspapers and other if you are interested. http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/china-wants-to-construct-a-50-square-mile-self-sustaining-city-south-of-boise-idaho

    Basically, this is not news. China has already bought the world and we are just slow recognizing the facts.


    Sadly, it's all about quantity than quality. I'm really afraid for the quality of their structures. I guess this is capitalism at its best (or worst). In the end, the bottom line is $$$$$$$$$ or just call it greed.
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    Jul 02, 2011 7:58 AM GMT
    ...you compete by investing in education and training, health and economic and social infrastructure - and what has made the USA great in the past - innovation and creativity

    disagree with riddler78 - China is ready to take over as the largest economy in the world - and India is another giant in waiting

    Australia was the first country to recognise Communist China and has had a long and good relationship with the country

    My prediction is that China will corner the intellectual and manufacturing market for the development of green technologies and energy production in the next 5 years- and this is where the USA is at most risk

    When you embrace competition you become a great economy again - ignore it and it will come back to bite you - there is nothing to be afraid of - apart from inaction and burying your head in the sand

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    Jul 02, 2011 8:09 AM GMT
    ozmuscle2 saiddisagree with riddler78 - China is ready to take over as the largest economy in the world - and India is another giant in waiting[...]

    My prediction is that China will corner the intellectual and manufacturing market for the development of green technologies and energy production in the next 5 years- and this is where the USA is at most risk

    When you embrace competition you become a great economy again - ignore it and it will come back to bite you - there is nothing to be afraid of - apart from inaction and burying your head in the sand



    Again, to suggest either economies are "giants in waiting" is inaccurate - "reawakening" is the better term because they were thus in the past and more consistent with the norm.

    China may become the world's biggest economy and I think it eventually will but they have so many structural issues that the period in which they achieve this is not certain at all. I also don't think that China will corner the market in green technologies as you can already see how quickly the US caught up without the absurd subsidies in Europe (though there are subsidies nonetheless) - the structures of whom are collapsing.

    I do agree with your last point though.
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    Jul 02, 2011 8:20 AM GMT
    check this out - the prototype - what the Chinese learn from this will be applied universally - watch this space



    http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/carbonfree-living-chinas-green-leap-forward-435208.html

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    Jul 02, 2011 8:17 PM GMT
    ozmuscle2 saidcheck this out - the prototype - what the Chinese learn from this will be applied universally - watch this space

    http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/carbonfree-living-chinas-green-leap-forward-435208.html



    Note that your article is from 2007. Update: failure - score one for greenwashing - http://chinadigitaltimes.net/china/dongtan/

    Dongtan and other highly touted eco-cities across China were meant to be models of sustainable design for the future. Instead they’ve become models of bold visions that mostly stayed on the drawing boards — or collapsed from shoddy implementation. More often than not, these vaunted eco-cities have been designed by big-name foreign architectural and engineering firms who plunged into the projects with little understanding of Chinese politics, culture, and economics — and with little feel for the needs of local residents whom the utopian communities were designed to serve.

    “What I have always found amazing about these eco-towns is how seemingly easy it is for people to, first, tout these as a sign of China’s commitment to the environment and then, second, be surprised when things fail,” writes Richard Brubaker, founder and managing director of China Strategic Development Partners.

    Shannon May, a Ph.D. candidate in anthropology at the University of California, Berkeley who has studied the troubled eco-city of Huangbaiyu, wrote in comments posted on The Christian Science Monitor’s Web site, “While such highly lauded projects garner fame and money for the foreign firms, and promotions for the local government officials, they leave the population they were supposed to serve behind.”


    The reality is that China will do what is in its political self interest says it should do. There will be some wonderful PR efforts, but eco tech only works when it is financially viable and for the large bulk of eco tech it's just not. That's not to say it won't be, but China is highly unlikely to lead the way - though they have in the short term established the cost baseline for technologies like solar because of their cheap labor. Where the war will be won however is not on labor optimization but technology innovation - and the most exciting developments in that space insofar as as I've followed are happening in the US.
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    Jul 02, 2011 8:33 PM GMT
    I was watching these programs in the Science Channel about the construction of all the stuff needed for the 2008 Olympics. 4 out of 5 times a company was mentioned, it was a German company. So I guess that for the time being, Germany is the winner.

    That China is going to become a competitor... well, in this globalized world there isn't anything to do about it but to actually compete with them.

    I'm not American or European, but I would be ashamed of hearing all the defeatism around the "but China is taking over!" when both the US and the EU are still the biggest boys in the yard, with the potential to shape the rules of the game.
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    Jul 02, 2011 9:20 PM GMT
    Alpha13 saidThats a joke, Islam is taking over Europe. 30% of reproductive age males in London and Marsailles. There won't be any cool places to film James Bond films in a generation.


    This is so true. Europe will be a different place in one generation, and not for the better.
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    Jul 02, 2011 9:44 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie said
    Alpha13 saidThats a joke, Islam is taking over Europe. 30% of reproductive age males in London and Marsailles. There won't be any cool places to film James Bond films in a generation.


    This is so true. Europe will be a different place in one generation, and not for the better.


    Now you are both talking bullshit.
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    Jul 02, 2011 10:11 PM GMT
    Mil8 said
    mocktwinkie said
    Alpha13 saidThats a joke, Islam is taking over Europe. 30% of reproductive age males in London and Marsailles. There won't be any cool places to film James Bond films in a generation.


    This is so true. Europe will be a different place in one generation, and not for the better.


    Now you are both talking bullshit.


    Actually we're just noticing reality instead of burying our heads in imaginary ideas that don't correspond with statistics and birthrates.
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    Jul 02, 2011 10:14 PM GMT
    And China is moving in on Canada's oil.
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    Jul 02, 2011 10:21 PM GMT
    Mil8 said
    mocktwinkie said
    Alpha13 saidThats a joke, Islam is taking over Europe. 30% of reproductive age males in London and Marsailles. There won't be any cool places to film James Bond films in a generation.

    This is so true. Europe will be a different place in one generation, and not for the better.

    Now you are both talking bullshit.

    Is it bullshit? Here are a few intersting places to check into Islamification of Europe:

    http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2006/11/the-751-no-go-zones-of-france

    http://vladtepesblog.com/?page_id=289

    http://vladtepesblog.com/?page_id=1131

    http://www.geographictravels.com/2006/11/no-go-areas-of-france-and-rest-of.html

    http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2006/08/expanding-no-go-zones.html

    http://blog.vdare.com/archives/2010/08/11/no-go-zones-in-berlin-noted/

    http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/europe-no-go-zone-for-non-muslims/blog-179585/

    http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2584

    http://bigpeace.com/nmay/2010/07/24/policing-the-sharia-enclaves-of-europe/
  • austex85

    Posts: 572

    Jul 02, 2011 10:29 PM GMT
    isn't the most common name now in Paris for newborns 'Mohammed'?

    ...or was that for all of France? all of Western Europe?
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    Jul 02, 2011 10:31 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie said
    Mil8 said
    mocktwinkie said
    Alpha13 saidThats a joke, Islam is taking over Europe. 30% of reproductive age males in London and Marsailles. There won't be any cool places to film James Bond films in a generation.


    This is so true. Europe will be a different place in one generation, and not for the better.


    Now you are both talking bullshit.


    Actually we're just noticing reality instead of burying our heads in imaginary ideas that don't correspond with statistics and birthrates.


    So, where are your statistics? (By 'statistics', I do not mean a few scare stories googled by socalfitness).
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    Jul 02, 2011 10:36 PM GMT
    Mil8 said
    mocktwinkie said
    Mil8 said
    mocktwinkie said
    Alpha13 saidThats a joke, Islam is taking over Europe. 30% of reproductive age males in London and Marsailles. There won't be any cool places to film James Bond films in a generation.

    This is so true. Europe will be a different place in one generation, and not for the better.

    Now you are both talking bullshit.

    Actually we're just noticing reality instead of burying our heads in imaginary ideas that don't correspond with statistics and birthrates.

    So, where are your statistics? (By 'statistics', I do not mean a few scare stories googled by socalfitness).

    First of all, I didn't just google them. They have been discussed on another site for several months. You couldn't have read them in just the few minutes since I posted them, so you just discount every study. Because you talk about statistics, they do exist in some of the reports, but you don't want to see them because it might show where the BS really is.
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    Jul 02, 2011 10:49 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    Actually quite the opposite - I think your views are popular, probably honest, but they're wrong. The idea that just because something is built somewhere else therefore destroys jobs locally is a silly one given that the money saved is just reallocated to more useful tasks.

    Of course, I have a vested interest here based on what we do, but the real money isn't in the commodities, and the production, it's in the innovation, development and ideas. Despite it's growing economic clout, on a per capita basis, China remains one of the poorest countries in the world. It's also useful to note that the fact that India and China are so far behind economically is actually what's unusual given that they were the ones persistently ahead in the past. It's also useful to note that the US remains the largest manufacturer in the world - and is likely to remain so for quite some time while China has many challenges ahead.

    So lets imagine that 400 million really was saved and can now be "invested elsewhere." You assume that California will invest that $400 million somewhere (considering the state of finances I would say they will just bank that money rather than invest it somewhere else.) It also means that 7.1 billion left the country (alright- a billion or two likely stayed to pay the workers who will pave it and erect it.) The engineers who are likely being paid $100 a day will be overseeing the project on American soil and the laborers made around $20 a day in China. Yes- there was probably a "savings" but all of those jobs and that money will never see California again (save for when China buys government bonds and lends California their money back with interest payable...) The overseer of the project states that American companies do not have the facilities to make such a bridge. That statement should raise red flags. If they do not presently have them, and they would sooner give the money to China than to build them you may as well just give all major future bridge and infrastructure projects to China and concede defeat in the area of civil engineering.

    When you say "Where the war will be won however is not on labor optimization but technology innovation" you are 100% correct. The problem is that according to a 2009 report by the Information Technology & Innovation Foundation America ranked dead last when it came to change in "global innovation-based competitiveness" over the previous decade out of 40 countries. That does not bode well for Americans.

    Even though they were historically ahead economically in the past is no reason to hand them superiority in the present. As you say- China is only doing what is in it's best interests. The problem is that Western countries are not following suit. Allowing Chinese companies to start building industrial complexes in your country allows them to slap a "made in the USA" sticker on the product while all of the profits return to China, save for the minimal wages they pay and the "special negotiated" (read as minimal) taxes they will pay. In Canada, provided the last step of production has occurred here, you get to slap a "made in Canada sticker on the product. I can see a "special economic zone" where they import their junk and package it here. Suddenly, there will be thousands of cheap, plastic consumer goods that are "made in Canada."

    You say that China MAY become the worlds biggest economy as though there is a question when you and I both know that the IMF predicts that in 4 1/2 short years (2016) China will have beaten out America for top spot. Ed Lazear, a Stanford University economics professor has stated that if nothing changes the AVERAGE Chinese citizen will be wealthier than the average American citizen in 30 years. These are not things that America should embrace- but rather fight against.

    The unemployment rate in America is atrocious. Yet most Americans are unaware that around 46 000 factories have moved to China since 2001 costing around 2.4 million jobs (most of which were "good" jobs.) Quite frankly, I doubt that those millions of people (probably unemployed or employed by Walmart now) are happy to give China the majority of manufacturing jobs. They were the middle class and now must settle for lower living standards as America has refused to protect them; opting to allow corporations larger profits instead.

    I suppose that I am done ranting now. The one thing that we both agree on is that China faces many challenges in the years ahead. Did you catch the release of the debt numbers faced by local governments in China? (I believe they were released for the first time last week.) Kind of interesting stuff.
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    Jul 02, 2011 10:55 PM GMT
    @socalfitness

    I do not need to be a genius to see that none of your links is from a reasonably reliable statistical source (e.g. a government census). Why not post some reliable statistical data instead? Besides, statistics tell us what is happening 'now', not 50 years down the line. Economic, social, migratory and other factors mean that predicting the future ethnic and religious composition of a country is fraught with problems.

    FYI, at the last census for which figures are available (2001) , the majority of the UK population were White (92 per cent). The remaining 4.6 million (or 7.9 per cent) people belonged to other ethnic groups.

    Indians were the largest of these groups, followed by Pakistanis, those of Mixed ethnic backgrounds, Black Caribbeans, Black Africans and Bangladeshis. The remaining minority ethnic groups each accounted for less than 0.5 per cent of the UK population and together accounted for a further 1.4 per cent.

    http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=455

    Hardly a picture of rampant islamification.
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    Jul 02, 2011 11:03 PM GMT
    Mil8 said@socalfitness

    I do not need to be a genius to see that none of your links is from a reasonably reliable statistical source (e.g. a government census). Why not post some reliable statistical data instead? Besides, statistics tell us what is happening now, not 50 years down the line. Economic, social, migratory and other factors mean that predicting the future ethnic and religious composition of a country is fraught with problems.

    FYI, at the last census for which figures are available (2001) , the majority of the UK population were White (92 per cent). The remaining 4.6 million (or 7.9 per cent) people belonged to other ethnic groups.

    Indians were the largest of these groups, followed by Pakistanis, those of Mixed ethnic backgrounds, Black Caribbeans, Black Africans and Bangladeshis. The remaining minority ethnic groups each accounted for less than 0.5 per cent of the UK population and together accounted for a further 1.4 per cent.

    http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=455

    Hardly a picture of rampant islamification.

    The sources I posted did not pertain to the UK, except indirectly in a couple of them. But you're the one who took it upon yourself to say the other RJ members were "talking bullshit" regarding their comments about Europe. So it is incumbent on you to back up your charge and of you don't think any of the info I provided is credible, provide your own.
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    Jul 02, 2011 11:10 PM GMT
    socalfitness saidSo it is incumbent on you to back up your charge.


    I did, they did not and you lamely backed them up.
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    Jul 02, 2011 11:13 PM GMT
    Mil8 said
    socalfitness saidSo it is incumbent on you to back up your charge.


    I did, they did not and you lamely backed them up.

    They mentioned Europe. Your statistics addressed the UK. icon_rolleyes.gif