FDA conducts armed sting on Amish farmer- for selling milk

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 06, 2011 4:21 PM GMT
    How much more government interference are we going to accept? We don't even get to decide what we eat or drink anymore. Monsanto is allowed to genetically alter all of our plants but we can't buy raw organic milk?

    http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/omkara/2011/may/4/fda-conducts-armed-sting-amish-farmer-selling-milk/
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 06, 2011 11:47 PM GMT
    That is completely absurd! I don't advocate people drinking raw milk, but let them make the choice on there own for christ sake!

    Illegal trafic of Milk?!?! another way for our large government to step on the little guy.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 06, 2011 11:51 PM GMT
    Oh, this is about cow milk... Nevermind.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 06, 2011 11:56 PM GMT
    Lol the government loves to be a cockblock on everything... icon_confused.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 07, 2011 12:30 AM GMT
    There are so many pathogens that can cause illness in raw milk. C. jejuni, Salmonella, Brucella, Listeria, bovine TB, E coli (that causes hemolytic uremic syndrome, like that in Germany just recently)...the list goes on.

    Pasteurization does not eliminate the risk completely, but reduces it markedly.

    Look at the list of reported outbreaks due to raw dairy product consumption.
    http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/scientific-references/
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 07, 2011 12:33 AM GMT
    q1w2e3 saidThere are so many pathogens that can cause illness in raw milk. C. jejuni, Salmonella, Brucella, Listeria, bovine TB, E coli (that causes hemolytic uremic syndrome, like that in Germany just recently)...the list goes on.

    Pasteurization does not eliminate the risk completely, but reduces it markedly.

    Look at the list of reported outbreaks due to raw dairy product consumption.
    http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/scientific-references/


    So you agree that governments everywhere should protect us from the Amish?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 07, 2011 12:37 AM GMT
    Simply speaking, this is a matter of public health, and the FDA is well within its rights. Maybe it was a little heavy-handed in this instance (they apparently wanted to generate an air-tight case), I agree.
  • creature

    Posts: 5197

    Jul 07, 2011 12:48 AM GMT
    riddler78 said
    q1w2e3 saidThere are so many pathogens that can cause illness in raw milk. C. jejuni, Salmonella, Brucella, Listeria, bovine TB, E coli (that causes hemolytic uremic syndrome, like that in Germany just recently)...the list goes on.

    Pasteurization does not eliminate the risk completely, but reduces it markedly.

    Look at the list of reported outbreaks due to raw dairy product consumption.
    http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/scientific-references/


    So you agree that governments everywhere should protect us from the Amish?


    The sting operation is about transportation of raw milk over state lines. I believe you can purchase raw milk that comes from your own state.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 07, 2011 12:52 AM GMT
    http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/articles/2009/03/20/raw-milk-is-gaining-fans-but-the-science-says-its-dangerousWhile there are no laws against drinking raw milk straight from the source, the government banned interstate sales more than two decades ago, leaving states to decide what to do when consumers within their borders want to buy raw milk. Twenty-three states ban the sale of raw milk for human consumption; the rest allow the purchase under certain conditions. In Maryland, a farmer who is caught selling raw milk runs the risk of jail. In California, raw dairy products are sold in some grocery stores. In Illinois, consumers can buy straight from the farm if they bring their own containers. In Virginia, it's legal to drink raw milk only from a cow that you own.


    So the FDA is only trying to help protect states' rights about determining which raw milk laws apply, besides controlling interstate commerce. We should all applaud a federal agency doing what the states didn't do. icon_lol.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 07, 2011 12:55 AM GMT
    I know this is awful but my grandmother is suing the state of Ohio over the same thing.

    The state is saying she is not allowed to sell raw organic goats milk but the Health Department says she is fine to do it.

    It all boils down to money people. The large corportations are the ones the loby and get the politicians to do what is in the best interest of them. Us little people can't do anything since we don't have millions of dollars and lawyers working for us.

    Another case I heard about some senator was going to bring about was making it illegal to grow, sell, trade, give away, or barter (sp?) of any home grown produce or food. So that home garden of yours could be a felony if the govt gets their way.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 07, 2011 12:58 AM GMT
    q1w2e3 said
    http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/articles/2009/03/20/raw-milk-is-gaining-fans-but-the-science-says-its-dangerousWhile there are no laws against drinking raw milk straight from the source, the government banned interstate sales more than two decades ago, leaving states to decide what to do when consumers within their borders want to buy raw milk. Twenty-three states ban the sale of raw milk for human consumption; the rest allow the purchase under certain conditions. In Maryland, a farmer who is caught selling raw milk runs the risk of jail. In California, raw dairy products are sold in some grocery stores. In Illinois, consumers can buy straight from the farm if they bring their own containers. In Virginia, it's legal to drink raw milk only from a cow that you own.


    So the FDA is only trying to help protect states' rights about determining which raw milk laws apply, besides controlling interstate commerce. We should all applaud a federal agency doing what the states didn't do. icon_lol.gif


    ie protect people from the Amish and their terrifyingly unsafe practices.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 07, 2011 1:16 AM GMT
    q1w2e3 saidThere are so many pathogens that can cause illness in raw milk. C. jejuni, Salmonella, Brucella, Listeria, bovine TB, E coli (that causes hemolytic uremic syndrome, like that in Germany just recently)...the list goes on.

    Pasteurization does not eliminate the risk completely, but reduces it markedly.

    Look at the list of reported outbreaks due to raw dairy product consumption.
    http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/scientific-references/



    Totally agree with you on this. There is no argument that pasteurization of milk is a good practice and you would never see me drinking non pasteurized milk.

    That said...Im not sure that we need to focus on throwing the amish farmer in jail (or taking his horse and buggy away) because americans aren't educated enough to make their own healthy decisions. People need to be responsible for their own health. If one persons retarded choice effects them only - let them make it. If it effects others or the environment - then by all means step in and tell the idiot that he has to change his light bulbs to the newer, better technology icon_smile.gif
  • barriehomeboy

    Posts: 2475

    Jul 07, 2011 1:18 AM GMT
    Those damned Amish people! Knock them down before they start having an annual Amish Pride parade!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 07, 2011 1:20 AM GMT

    ie protect people from the Amish and their terrifyingly unsafe practices...


    You mean like driving the buggy down the middle of the highway at midnight? I would love to see what causes more deaths... Infection from milk sold by an Amish farmer or car accidents caused by buggys...

    Note that I am picking on the FDA here, not the Amish. I appreciate their lifestyle. Minus the crazy religious part.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 07, 2011 1:27 AM GMT
    But it's not just one person's folly. Cases tend to appear in clusters, which makes it a public health issue.

    Just look in this pdf for 2010-May 2011 dairy product outbreaks. Several things to notice:
    1. Vast majority of outbreaks is from raw milk products
    2. Most incidents have several people affected unless a recall was effected.
    3. Most of these products are legally sold but there were some interstate sales. (my take on this is that the laws that exist are deficient in protecting the public, and that the interstate issue is artificial. Diseases don't follow state borders)

    http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2011-ALL-dairy-through-May-15-4.pdf
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 07, 2011 1:30 AM GMT
    Bucky159 saidPeople need to be responsible for their own health. If one persons retarded choice effects them only - let them make it. If it effects others or the environment - then by all means step in and tell the idiot that he has to change his light bulbs to the newer, better technology icon_smile.gif

    +∞
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 07, 2011 1:30 AM GMT
    q1w2e3 saidBut it's not just one person's folly. Cases tend to appear in clusters, which makes it a public health issue.

    Just look in this pdf for 2010-May 2011 dairy product outbreaks. Several things to notice:
    1. Vast majority of outbreaks is from raw milk products
    2. Most incidents have several people affected unless a recall was effected.
    3. Most of these products are legally sold but there were some interstate sales. (my take on this is that the laws that exist are deficient in protecting the public, and that the interstate issue is artificial. Diseases don't follow state borders)

    http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2011-ALL-dairy-through-May-15-4.pdf


    I see... back to the original point, governments should protect people from the dangerous Amish and their crazy practices. I mean it's a wonder their sects have survived for so long - a fad I say... a fad!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 07, 2011 1:40 AM GMT
    q1w2e3 saidBut it's not just one person's folly. Cases tend to appear in clusters, which makes it a public health issue.

    Just look in this pdf for 2010-May 2011 dairy product outbreaks. Several things to notice:
    1. Vast majority of outbreaks is from raw milk products
    2. Most incidents have several people affected unless a recall was effected.
    3. Most of these products are legally sold but there were some interstate sales. (my take on this is that the laws that exist are deficient in protecting the public, and that the interstate issue is artificial. Diseases don't follow state borders)

    http://www.realrawmilkfacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2011-ALL-dairy-through-May-15-4.pdf


    Those numbers are small in comparison to what could be distributed by say, Wallmart's generic brand milk or milk from Kwik Trip stores. My point is not that this is a safe practice. It is that the FDA should target the farm/retail stores that sell this stuff.

    On the same token...why are people allowed to buy a rare hamburger in a resturaunt, or undercooked eggs? We know full well that hamburger is not sterile and undercooking of it can lead to a serious infection with E.coli 0157 among other things. Why are people allowed to make that choice, but not what type of milk they want to drink?

    I'll say it again...I do not condone this! People- cook your burgers through, dont eat raw eggs, and pasteurize your damn milk. Its your own life at risk.
  • creature

    Posts: 5197

    Jul 07, 2011 1:42 AM GMT
    Riddler,

    This has nothing to do about the Amish and the government. This sting could have happened to anyone who's in the business of transporting raw milk across state lines. States have their own laws about raw milk, and the prevention of transporting raw milk across state lines helps to enforce those laws.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 07, 2011 1:47 AM GMT
    Bucky159 said
    Those numbers are small in comparison to what could be distributed by say, Wallmart's generic brand milk or milk from Kwik Trip stores. My point is not that this is a safe practice. It is that the FDA should target the farm/retail stores that sell this stuff.


    If you don't go after the source, who're you going to go after? As you correctly pointed out, you can't go after each idiot who decides to believe the unsubstantiated claims that raw milk adherents make. That the FDA cannot go after ALL raw milk producers is a historical accident and seems unlikely to be corrected in this political climate.

    The most sensible law is the VA law--own a cow in your backyard and the consequences of drinking raw milk is on you and you alone.

    What is medically sound and and what is politically acceptable historically often don't intersect. Compare marijuana with tobacco, and marijuana with raw milk.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 07, 2011 1:51 AM GMT
    You lost me with the comparison to marijuana...

    and no way am I having a cow in my back yard. They eat and poop at the same time...nasty
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 07, 2011 2:05 AM GMT
    "What is medically sound and and what is politically acceptable historically often don't intersect."

    Marijuana
    --relatively innocuous (except for some studies on brain development before adulthood and lung function in long term users)
    --illegal in most states, and viewed by the federal government with a vengeful eye (simply because it's a controlled substance)

    Tobacco
    --historically the cash crop of the South (therefore politically tough to dislodge from its legal status)
    --no. 1 killer in the US by far (yet it's legal!)

    Raw milk
    --only made into an issue after pasteurization is invented and faddists propose all kinds of benefits that are flimsily supported scientifically
    --much more risk when compared to pasteurized milk
    --FDA can only regulate interstate commerce (so that huge outbreaks by Walmart selling raw milk can't occur)
    --variable legality in states
  • creature

    Posts: 5197

    Jul 07, 2011 2:14 AM GMT
    Southbeach,

    Stop with the foolishness. The FDA was only enforcing interstate commerce laws. Clearly you missed what q1w2e3 wrote about raw milk laws of the state.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 07, 2011 2:18 AM GMT
    creature saidSouthbeach,

    Stop with the foolishness. The FDA was only enforcing interstate commerce laws. Clearly you missed what q1w2e3 wrote about raw milk laws of the state.


    That might be a legitimate enforcement of Commerce Clause authority if, for example, Ohio was charging a tariff on Pennsylvania milk in interfering with the transportation of goods (which wouldn't be the FDA's business). But this has no relation to the original intent of the Commerce Clause power of Congress.
  • creature

    Posts: 5197

    Jul 07, 2011 2:22 AM GMT
    What foolishness?

    You're going after the federal government for its regulation, even though it is the state that tells its residents whether raw milk can be purchased within its boundaries, and how to purchase raw milk if it is permissible.