UN Palmer Commission: Israel's blockade of Gaza is Legal. Israel's raid on Mavi Marmara was Legal.

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    Jul 11, 2011 2:30 PM GMT
    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/mideast_party_pooper_bQjOEWVcXlNN2NiXaTLK6K

    The problem for Turkey, reportedly, is that [New Zealand Prime Minister Geoffrey] Palmer, who was picked to head the UN commission because of his maritime-law expertise, has determined that Israel's Gaza blockade is legal, and that Israel has the right to enforce it.


    http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/un-report-gaza-blockade-legal-israel-doesn-t-owe-turkey-apology-for-marmara-1.371841

    UN report: Gaza blockade legal, Israel doesn't owe Turkey apology for Marmara

    UN investigative committee, headed by Geoffrey Palmer, expected to present report to the UN Secretary General's office Thursday.


    The UN report on last year's Gaza flotilla clash found that Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip is legal and that Jerusalem owes no apology to Turkey for the Mavi Marmara raid, diplomatic sources said.

    ...The draft report was sent to both Israel and Turkey. Diplomatic sources in Jerusalem who saw the draft report said it sharply criticizes Turkey for not doing enough to prevent the flotilla from setting sail and for conducting a tendentious investigation into the events.

    In contrast, the report said that the Turkel Committee, which led Israel's official flotilla probe, had conducted a professional and independent investigation.

    ...Palmer did not demand that Israel apologize to Turkey, suggesting that it express sorrow over the casualties instead. Nor did the report demand that Israel pay any compensation.


    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/un-report-on-gaza-flotilla-delayed-to-enable-israel-turkey-talks-1.372012

    UN report on Gaza flotilla delayed to enable Israel-Turkey talks

    Palmer report on Israel's raid on Mavi Marmara to come out July 27; Israeli, Turkish officials working to mend diplomatic rift.



    See also:

    Turkel Commission: Israeli soldiers fired at Gaza aid flotilla in self-defence, says inquiry.
    Raid on Gaza-bound ships was legal.
    Israel's blockade of Gaza legal under international law.

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1349588
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    Jul 12, 2011 7:30 AM GMT
    I'm a little bothered, honestly, that nowhere in your post do you acknowledge that a number of people were killed by members of the IDF, only that there were "casualties".

    I see very little of what I consider intellectual honesty on either side of the partisan Israel/Palestine conflict. But the pretense that killing people—be they Palestinian, Israeli or any other—is somehow alright because it is found after the fact to be "legal" is, I think, an ugly and dishonest state of affairs.

    We see the same thing from the Palestinian side, where the poor Israeli people killed by rocket fire are casualties, and not the murdered.

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    Jul 12, 2011 2:59 PM GMT
    Note first that none of the text is mine. The language (e.g. "casualties" instead of "people killed") comes from the newspaper articles referenced (and likely the report itself, though I haven't yet seen it myself).

    No one disputes that people were killed. It was a tragedy that could easily have been avoided (but which organizers are currently seeking to repeat).

    Let's not overlook that the IHH "martyrs" on the Mavi Marmara chose this fight when they ambushed (contrary to the captain's orders) Israeli troops who (legally) boarded the vessel. Indeed, from the "martyrdom videos" they filmed in advance, it is clear this was premeditated on their part.

    The apologists at the time raised shrill (if idiotic) cries of "piracy" and that the passengers (not crew) of the vessel had every "right" to "resist". (Much as they attempt to justify Arab terrorism as the legitimate "right" to "resist" the "occupation", falsely invoking "international law", while egregiously cheering the terrorists who intentionally target and murder innocent civilians in gross violations of international law).

    All other vessels in the "flotilla" were peacefully boarded and redirected, not to mention that the "flotilla" could have docked at El Arish or Ashdod and delivered its (small) cargo through normal channels. The point of the "flotilla" exercise clearly wasn't delivering "aid" but a political confrontation in general, and a physical confrontation on that one ship (an attempt to take Israeli soldiers as hostages for use as bargaining chips - another gross violation of international law).


    To compare the deaths of wanna-be vigilante/combatants who foolishly attack superior forces (with the promise of "martyrdom" or other reasons) to the deaths of innocent civilians targeted and murdered during the normal course of a day's events by random terrorist rocket-fire (or previously suicide bombings) is odious.

    Here's a better analogy: imagine that a van approaches a US/British roadblock in Iraq. The driver stops, but passengers jump out and rush the soldiers, brandishing clubs and knives. After several soldiers are overwhelmed, they open fire killing some of the attackers.

    Imagine that certain people excuse the event (because the van had some food on it. Nope, make that mostly expired medications and cement past its expiration date) and clamored that the attack was justified since the roadblock is "illegal".

    If a year later, after a lengthy investigation, a UN commission declared that the roadblock is legal... would you feel compelled to revisit the details - including the unnecessary deaths?

    Note also that the OP ignores all details (including those which I just snuck in. (: ). The point of the topic wasn't to rehash that event (including lamenting those deaths, which, in any event, the usual suspects don't actually care about, either).


    Tim, in view of the findings of the Palmer Commission (or otherwise), what do you think about further attempts to breach the blockade by the current "flotilla" which is (almost) in progress?
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    Jul 12, 2011 3:40 PM GMT
    It is regrettable that you post other people's words instead of your own without comment.

    I think all nonviolent protest against odious power is reasonable. If people are considering launching a flotilla, given what happened last time, then they are brave (and perhaps foolhardy) people indeed.

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    Jul 12, 2011 6:51 PM GMT
    So you are agreeing that the "flotillas" and "convoys" have little or nothing to do with "humanitarian aid" to Gaza but are really about "protest"?

    It's unfortunate that these people don't spend their time protesting (rallying) in the cause of peace rather than one-sidedly objecting to the result of the lack of peace. Even worse given that their selective demonizations are not meant to advance peace but rather to vilify one party in order to rationalize, justify and perpetuate the conflict (in reality not caring even about the Palestinian Arab victims of the conflict, instead condemning more to die).

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    Jul 12, 2011 7:02 PM GMT
    Since I haven't met any of the people who have participated in the flotillas, I would hardly care to speak for them. In actuality, I don't really think it matters what their message was. Whatever their intention, they have a human right to express themselves in an act of protest, and in my opinion the killings were appalling.

    It is my belief that in the future, when a secure Israeli state is at peace with its Palestinian neighbor, that this particular act will be looked upon with distaste by Israeli historians; as an egregious and superfluous exertion of power. It was so, for example, with regard to Bloody Sunday which was a similarly appalling act committed by the British state. I would not be at all surprised to see the future state of Israel condemn its past actions at that time.

    You are a fool if you believe those killings advanced Israel's security. They did not and they could not. In fact they did much to give succor to Israel's enemies. Remember that.
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    Jul 12, 2011 7:02 PM GMT
    TigerTim saidI'm a little bothered, honestly, that nowhere in your post do you acknowledge that a number of people were killed by members of the IDF, only that there were "casualties".

    I see very little of what I consider intellectual honesty on either side of the partisan Israel/Palestine conflict. But the pretense that killing people—be they Palestinian, Israeli or any other—is somehow alright because it is found after the fact to be "legal" is, I think, an ugly and dishonest state of affairs.

    We see the same thing from the Palestinian side, where the poor Israeli people killed by rocket fire are casualties, and not the murdered.

    +1

    And frankly, I'm getting tired of our threads getting clogged with this crap. This is a gay health & fitness site. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict will go on forever.

    I really don't want to hear about this any more, from members who post nothing else. If you have a problem with Israel, or the Palestinians, post it elsewhere. I'm sure there are sites that deal with this issue. I don't think RealJock should be turned into one of them.
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    Jul 12, 2011 9:46 PM GMT
    Art_Deco> I'm getting tired of our threads getting clogged with this crap. This is a gay health & fitness site. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict will go on forever.

    How come you never voice this complaint in any of the anti-Israel topics?
    Especially given that there are so many more of them?


    TigerTim> It is my belief that in the future....

    I'm sure you realize this is a circular argument, where your premise and conclusion are one and the same.


    TigerTim> You are a fool if you believe those killings advanced Israel's security. They did not and they could not. In fact they did much to give succor to Israel's enemies.

    You sound as if Israel set out to kill people when its patrol (initially armed with paint guns!) boarded the vessel.
    Perhaps, though, you have stumbled on why the IHH pre-meditated it.

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    Jul 12, 2011 10:08 PM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidTigerTim> It is my belief that in the future....

    I'm sure you realize this is a circular argument, where your premise and conclusion are one and the same.


    TigerTim> You are a fool if you believe those killings advanced Israel's security. They did not and they could not. In fact they did much to give succor to Israel's enemies.

    You sound as if Israel set out to kill people when its patrol (initially armed with paint guns!) boarded the vessel.
    Perhaps, though, you have stumbled on why the IHH pre-meditated it.



    It's not an argument at all, least of all a circular one. I'm not trying to prove anything, and I'm not using my conclusion to justify my predicate. I merely believe it to be true.

    Again, I do not claim that Israel set out to kill anyone (do abstract ideas ever set out to kill people?). I merely claim that the killings were egregious, immoral and should not have happened. As is true for so many other deaths in this seemingly interminable conflict.

    I am doubtful that you have any better insight into the minds of the IHH than I, since you were not privy to their deliberations. It is difficult to believe that there is a single motivation on any party be it Israel or the IHH or whatever, so perhaps it's better for those of us outside the conflict to try to understand their plurality wherever we can. To do so would be a refreshing change on both sides.
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    Jul 13, 2011 12:11 AM GMT
    TigerTim> It's not an argument at all, least of all a circular one. I'm not trying to prove anything, and I'm not using my conclusion to justify my predicate. I merely believe it to be true.

    It's tautological.


    TigerTim> I do not claim that Israel set out to kill anyone.... I merely claim that the killings were egregious, immoral and should not have happened. As is true for so many other deaths in this seemingly interminable conflict.

    The deaths were tragic and unfortunate, but the soldiers acted in self-defense when they were ambushed and attacked.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFGuwUGaI9o

    If you want to roll back "shouldn't have happeneds", we can start there. And then that there shouldn't have been a flotilla. And pretty soon we'll conclude that God shouldn't have created Adam & Eve (or that someone should have stomped out that life form that slithered out of the ocean).


    TigerTim> I am doubtful that you have any better insight into the minds of the IHH than I, since you were not privy to their deliberations.

    Have you watched their rallies and martyrdom videos?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk


    TigerTim> It is difficult to believe that there is a single motivation on any party be it Israel or the IHH or whatever, so perhaps it's better for those of us outside the conflict to try to understand their plurality wherever we can. To do so would be a refreshing change on both sides.

    Israel is a state (with 7 million people) whereas IHH is a relatively small political party (affiliated with Hamas and Al Qaida) which placed 50 paid mercenaries aboard a vessel to cause violent trouble.

    I think we agree why the IHH pre-meditated it.
    Sending people to their death for a (short-lived) propaganda victory.
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    Jul 29, 2011 4:27 AM GMT
    You attack me, my family, my friends, and then you expect me to walk away?

    Attack me, my family, I promise--you will end up in a fight. Israel had every right to respond. They were repeatedly attacked!!! Did we forget loss of life?

    Israel should be complimented (perhaps criticized) for excessive restraint. Israel's actions could have been exponentially more severe.
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    Jul 30, 2011 3:07 PM GMT
    UN says flotilla report postponed until August
    July 30, 2011 02:21 PM

    http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2011/Jul-30/UN-says-flotilla-report-postponed-until-August.ashx#axzz1TVghZdMY

    UNITED NATIONS: The release of a long-awaited UN report on Israel's deadly 2010 raid on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla has again been delayed, this time until August, a spokesman said Tuesday.

    "We have decided to postpone the publication of this report until some time in August," said the spokesman, Farhan Haq.

    The report had been due on July 8, and then again on July 27. Israeli newspaper Maariv on Monday suggested the UN study, known as the Palmer report, would now be released on August 20.
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    Aug 01, 2011 6:04 PM GMT
    From (as usual) another topic:

    sxydrkhair> Do you know who is Geoffrey Palmer? - Read Pouncer's post.

    No one reads pouncer's drivel.

    The funny thing, as usual, are the contortions. As I recall, when the Turkel Commission ruled the blockade legal, pouncer was predicting that Ban Ki Moon's commission would over-rule that and lauded the UN. Now he's relegated to petty character assassinations of the Commission's chair:

    pouncer> The former prime minister of New Zealand. Yes, he apparently held a law professorship at a New Zealand University before he got into politics

    ROTFL. Palmer is considered an international expert on maritime law - you know, the relevant specialty to this case.

    Do yourself (and RJ) a favor and put pouncer on ignore.
    He's not here to help you.

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    Aug 23, 2011 1:24 PM GMT
    UN delays Gaza flotilla report, following request by Turkey
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/un-delays-gaza-flotilla-report-following-request-by-turkey-1.380038
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    Aug 23, 2011 4:10 PM GMT
    Pouncer said'Turkey may cut economic ties over 'Marmara' apology'
    http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=234885
    "In response to Israel's refusal to apologize for the deaths of nine Turkish nationals on board the Mavi Marmara last year, Ankara told the United States that it will consider taking further steps to downgrade its diplomatic relations with Israel and consider completely cutting its political and economic ties with Jerusalem, the Turkish Hurriyet Daily News reported on Sunday.

    Another step being considered by Turkey in response to what it considers Israel's refusal to reach a compromise ahead of the release of the United Nations Palmer report on the Marmara incident is a visit by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan to the Gaza Strip, according to the Hurriyet. The Turkish newspaper suggested that such a visit would "complicate breaking Israel's blockade on the enclave."





    This along with what just happened with Egypts losing 3 soldiers to the Israeli's IDF, The Egyptians did get a 'canned' and unavoidably necessary apology from Israels top military man, but that hasn't stopped huge demonstrations at the Israeli Embassy in Cairo, following this the Egyptian Gov. is considering sending home Israel's Ambassador.


    These far right Likud party leaders like Netanyahu, Lieberman and Danon (sp?) had been considering an attack on Gaza similar to "operation cast lead" of a couple years ago. Fortunately Netanyahu stopped it in part saying that due to "Israel's Isolation (and recent) delegitimizaiont) they didn't have the international good will to make such an attack. This Isolatioin and delegitimizaion is caused directly by such actions as these far right Likud leaders refusing to apologize for something so blatantly wrong as attacking those unarmed turkish men and the one American on the flotilla ship, killing 9 of them.

    All these matters add up to more of the UN membership voting to accept Palestines bid for recognition at some level. Even with the expected US subservient VETO, Palestine will have better recognition than now which will put pressure on Israel to make some real good faith efforts for peace, which may very well have to be Netanyahu's worst nightmare of dropping all that Settlement construction. If he doesn't do this to get the peace talks started, he will exacerbate Israel's self inflicted Isolation and deligitimizaion.


    You can find this information on Haaretz and The Jewish Daily Forward
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    Sep 02, 2011 1:35 AM GMT
    Turkey rejects compromise; Palmer Report to be released tomorrow

    Excerpts:
    The fundamental principle of the freedom of navigation on the high seas is subject to only certain limited exceptions under international law. Israel faces a real threat to its security from militant groups in Gaza. The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law.

    The flotilla acted recklessly in attempting to breach the naval blockade. ...there exist serious questions about the conduct, true nature and objectives of the flotilla organizers, particularly I.H.H.

    The report suggests that Israel make "an appropriate statement of regret", but Turkey is demanding not only a "full apology" but also a political ransom.

    The report astutely notes that the Gaza port cannot accommodate large ships and thus the blockade has little impact on the supply of civilian goods. (The various "flotillas" and "convoys" - despite taking months/years to organize and make noise, deliver less "aid" - much of it expired - than normally arrives via official channels in a matter of hours, day after day.)
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    Sep 02, 2011 5:15 AM GMT
    Caesarea4 saidTurkey rejects compromise; Palmer Report to be released tomorrow

    Excerpts:
    The fundamental principle of the freedom of navigation on the high seas is subject to only certain limited exceptions under international law. Israel faces a real threat to its security from militant groups in Gaza. The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law.

    The flotilla acted recklessly in attempting to breach the naval blockade. ...there exist serious questions about the conduct, true nature and objectives of the flotilla organizers, particularly I.H.H.

    The report suggests that Israel make "an appropriate statement of regret", but Turkey is demanding not only a "full apology" but also a political ransom.

    The report astutely notes that the Gaza port cannot accommodate large ships and thus the blockade has little impact on the supply of civilian goods. (The various "flotillas" and "convoys" - despite taking months/years to organize and make noise, deliver less "aid" - much of it expired - than normally arrives via official channels in a matter of hours, day after day.)




    Your a fucking joke LIL'AIPAC, you and your AIPAC ilk search around until you find someone you can place in the right position to get the outcome you want. This fools no one, Turkey isn't the party that won't compromise, its Israel's far right LIKUD ZIONISTS who have refused after much advise from your own military leaders telling them to compromise , then while in deliberations over apologizing or not Israel canceled the release of this report a few times, now you pain in the asses try to turn it around and say the other side won't compromise. Who the FUCK are you people thinking your fooling ? Yet you dumb fucks wonder why your isolated ? Are you STUPID ?? Your Likud Extremist Zionist actions are deligitimizing Israel but your ilk are to god damn blind to see it. Your own military top leaders have advised to pay restitution and make an apology, but no !!! The likes of you have the SHITZPAH to expect that you ZIONIST EXTREMISTS can murder and are entitled to then receive an apology from the side from which you murdered citizens.

    Your leaders pull this SHIT on top of adding approval of around 5000 more settlement units on Palestinian Occupied Territory and such Idiots think they can convince the world that they want peace with those from whom they are stealing. WHAT IN HELL ENTITLES SUCH ACTIONS FROM ISRAELS LEADERS, Now whine about being Isolated !!!!! Such self defeating decisions bring the Isolation on yourselves then run around the world expecting sympathy because you have so many enemies, GEEEEZE I WONDER WHY ??

    LIL'AIPAC, lets watch and see if this SHITZPAH that your lIKUD EXTREMISTS in refusing to compromise and apologise and pay restitution puts their version of Israel on a course for more approval in the worlds eyes as they go around trying to get other nations to not vote for Palestinian Statehood. Your extremist Likuds just shot Israel in the foot again.
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    Sep 02, 2011 2:46 PM GMT
    Thanks Pouncer !! I knew there was far more to this story that LIL'AIPAC was trying to forward. It takes a lot of "SHITZPAH" on LIL'AIPAC's part to attempt to claim legality on the raid and unnecessary murder of 9 Turks while knowing and ignoring the rest of the report that glaringly condemns Israels military action.

    But then FANATIC ZIONIST EXTREMISTS like LIL'AIPAC are always right in their own eyes, no matter what the reality is. Another example would be to consider his "SHITZPAH" and arrogance to write this several months ago on the subject , "the Gazan's weren't hungry enough under laws of war to require aid from the flotilla". (Imagine being that fucked up to even think this, let alone write it)

    Its extremist leaders with thinking like LIL'AIPAC (C4) that cause the Isolation of Israel and ruin the chances for peace for the average Israeli and Palestinian. Such narrow minded people are who promote the continuing settlements, the Occupation and the effective open air imprisonment of the Gazans, because for some reason they think they are entitled to doing what the rest of the world sees as unfair and inhumane. Will these people ever realize that they are ruining Israel?
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    Sep 20, 2011 12:19 PM GMT
    Following Turkey's reckless game of brinkmanship:

    UN chief urges Israel, Turkey to mend relations for sake of Middle East peace
    Ban Ki-moon calls on Israel and Turkey to implement the recommendations and findings of the UN Palmer report on the 2010 Gaza flotilla.


    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/un-chief-urges-israel-turkey-to-mend-relations-for-sake-of-middle-east-peace-1.382288

    ...The dramatic move came hours before the release of a UN report that called the May 31, 2010, Israeli raid "excessive and unreasonable." The UN panel also blamed Turkey and flotilla organizers for contributing to the deaths.

    ...The UN report said Israel's naval blockade of Gaza was legally imposed "as a legitimate security measure" to prevent weapons smuggling, but added that the killing of eight Turkish activists and a Turkish-American on one of the six ships in the flotilla was "unacceptable."

    Israel insists its forces acted in self-defense and says there will be no apology. Israeli officials pointed out that the report does not demand an apology. Rather, it says "an appropriate statement of regret should be made by Israel in respect of the incident in light of its consequences."


    Germany urges Turkey to accept findings of UN Gaza flotilla report

    German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle calls to 'all sides not to aggravate the situation,' as Turkey announces an upgrade of its military presence in the Mediterranean.


    [url]http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/germany-urges-turkey-to-accept-findings-of-un-gaza-flotilla-report-1.382325
    [/url]
    Germany on Saturday called on Turkey to accept the findings of a United Nations report which certified the legality of an Israeli raid on a Gaza-bound flotilla, which resulted in the death of eight Turkish citizens and one Turkish-American.

    ..."We wanted a comprehensive, transparent and neutral investigation. This independent and transparent investigation took place. The results should be taken seriously even if a certain aspect is not liked by one or the other," German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said.

    ,,,French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe also weighed in on the dispute. "We wish that this conflict between Israel and Turkey is solved by dialogue, cooperation and not through other means," he said.
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    Sep 20, 2011 9:05 PM GMT
    LIL'AIPAC, You sure are leaving out a lot of information aren't you !!


    Did you tell about how many diplomats including the US and many in his Knesset chamber, that told Netenyahu that he was standing on shaky ground, that he should offer an apology and payments to the families of those the IDF killed while 'protecting' Israels borders. (in international water by the way)

    Netenyahu ignored these warnings out of fear of Lieberman his far right competition. Netanyahu worked things around by his politics to shop for Palmer who would be lenient so he could put Israel in the best light.


    There is also an independent UN report that just came out about a week or ten days ago that disagrees with this Palmer Report. You didn't mention that either did you ?

    To give you a chance to be fair, Lets see if you post this other UN report, If not, I am sure Pouncer or I can find it for you, chances are it may be on Haaretz too.


    Gotta keep an eye on you, because you seem to be rather one sided infavor of whatever killing the FANATIC ZIONISTS do, because of course in your eyes, they like you, are always right.