If God exists, then where was God during the Holocaust?

  • trainhard2011

    Posts: 231

    Jul 13, 2011 3:39 PM GMT
    I'm sure there is a very rational, reasonable explanation...
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    Jul 13, 2011 3:45 PM GMT
    trainhard2011 saidI'm sure there is a very rational, reasonable explanation...
    .


    It depends on what you believe about God. I believe God is there for us AFTER this life. I've always had a hard time with God supposedly erratically helping out someone here and not there. Or this time but not that time.

    I read an article by a lady that claimed she prayed to God for 6 matching dining room chairs. She drove by house a few days later and lo and behold, they had six matching chairs out by the road with a sign that said, "FREE". They were uncomfortable but she explained that she never asked God for comfortable chairs and next time she'd know better.

    ...quite frankly I was a little appalled and your question would be a good one to ask her. I know what her answer will be though, because I've heard it from that kind of christian before. The jews killed christ and blah blah blah. Yuck.

    -Doug
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    Jul 13, 2011 8:44 PM GMT
    If you're gay then how come you haven't sucked my dick?

    Where'd you come up with a question like this?
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    Jul 13, 2011 9:48 PM GMT
    From a nondual perspective, there is no conflict here because ineffable transcendence is as much the ultimate source of the Holocaust as any other form in creation.
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    Jul 13, 2011 9:54 PM GMT
    theantijock saidThe convenient argument basically goes that lack of divine intervention does not deny God's existence but supports that God endowed humans with free will. Thus "God helps those who help themselves". Blablabla.


    I agree with theantjock here, in addition to the participation of those involved in this horrific study in group evil, there are many examples of heroism and good deeds of those who courageously stood up against the holocaust. God does not have the spiritual eyes for evil, only the spiritual eyes for the good, pure, and righteous.

    Eventually the holocaust was obliterated by the choice of good by those who stood up.
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    Jul 13, 2011 10:18 PM GMT
    If God exists, then where was God during the Holocaust?

    And I could ask,
    Where was he throughout all the other disasters, both human and natural, throughout history?
    And where is he now, during the drought over the Horn of Africa?

    All these questions I have come across before.
    I guess it's all boils down to this:

    If God exists, why is there so much suffering?

    I submit one possible answer, not my own but straight out of the lips of Jesus Christ himself-
    "The whole world lies under the power of the Wicked One" (i.e. the Devil).
    And I shall conclude with a question myself -

    Do you believe that God himself has ever suffered?
  • trainhard2011

    Posts: 231

    Jul 13, 2011 10:29 PM GMT
    vincent7 said
    theantijock saidThe convenient argument basically goes that lack of divine intervention does not deny God's existence but supports that God endowed humans with free will. Thus "God helps those who help themselves". Blablabla.


    I agree with theantjock here, in addition to the participation of those involved in this horrific study in group evil, there are many examples of heroism and good deeds of those who courageously stood up against the holocaust. God does not have the spiritual eyes for evil, only the spiritual eyes for the good, pure, and righteous.

    Eventually the holocaust was obliterated by the choice of good by those who stood up.


    You both are exactly right. The "free-will" argument demonstrates the dismissiveness and arrogance that religion really only offers. The fact that God and religion are still in business after such travesties shows you just how shallow people are

    Religion after all, is all about ME and my salvation
  • trainhard2011

    Posts: 231

    Jul 13, 2011 10:55 PM GMT
    NotThatOld saidIf God exists, then where was God during the Holocaust?

    And I could ask,
    Where was he throughout all the other disasters, both human and natural, throughout history?
    And where is he now, during the drought over the Horn of Africa?

    All these questions I have come across before.
    I guess it's all boils down to this:

    If God exists, why is there so much suffering?

    I submit one possible answer, not my own but straight out of the lips of Jesus Christ himself-
    "The whole world lies under the power of the Wicked One" (i.e. the Devil).
    And I shall conclude with a question myself -

    Do you believe that God himself has ever suffered?


    What Jesus is saying though is not profound or new. What he is saying is, is that assholes rule the world. They did it then, they do it now, they'll do it forever.
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    Jul 14, 2011 1:59 AM GMT
    Nonduality, Brahman, ineffable transcendence, Is-ness, Being, pure awareness, whatever the label, are pointers to the ultimate transcendent reality of all forms, regardless of any egoic value judgements people may hold about such forms. Most ideas about God are merely crude dualistic projections of human ego on to that which completely transcends duality.
  • trainhard2011

    Posts: 231

    Jul 14, 2011 3:39 AM GMT
    paradox saidNonduality, Brahman, ineffable transcendence, Is-ness, Being, pure awareness, whatever the label, are pointers to the ultimate transcendent reality of all forms, regardless of any egoic value judgements people may hold about such forms. Most ideas about God are merely crude dualistic projections of human ego on to that which completely transcends duality.


    You have me thinking. Thanks
  • trainhard2011

    Posts: 231

    Jul 14, 2011 3:48 AM GMT
    theantijock said
    trainhard2011 said

    The "free-will" argument demonstrates the dismissiveness and arrogance that religion really only offers. The fact that God and religion are still in business after such travesties shows you just how shallow people are

    Religion after all, is all about ME and my salvation


    That might be what religion is for you, but I would imagine religion offers different people different things. Part of what you call salvation is a matter of people understanding themselves. And here, religion offers a repository of 1000s of years of consideration.

    For you, what you call a travesty (I'm not sure you are using the correct word there) is the reason to throw away God & religion or maybe even spirituality itself. For others--Buddhism for instance which I think has a little something to do with suffering--these tragedies are very good reasons to stay in business...

    "Our life is always deeper than we know, is always more divine than it seems, and hence we are able to survive degradations and despairs which otherwise must engulf us." ~~ William James 1842-1910


    But, I'm a simpleton, so that's why I asked. So, was God there, or not? What do you think? Hitler was devoutly Catholic...so, what would it take for divine intervention?
  • trainhard2011

    Posts: 231

    Jul 14, 2011 4:07 AM GMT
    Would divine intervention even matter? Hitler considered himself to be a solider of Christ. Which makes me think about crude projections from human ego. Is it though? Where does he get these ideas that he's a solider of Christ? You could say he's a maniac...but is he? Many of his speeches were based on biblical scripture, his hate towards Jews, and gays, all religious, but also economic. So, you can say he abuses God, religion, etc. But, that seems very convenient, much like the free-will argument. I'm certainly not as bright as many of the posters here, that's why I ask where God was during the Holocaust. And, God could be from any religion...all of them. When America declared war against the Reich, is that when God intervened?

    Over 50 million people died because of power, but Christ too.
  • Montague

    Posts: 5205

    Jul 14, 2011 5:47 AM GMT
    Squarepeg saidIf you're gay then how come you haven't sucked my dick?


    Must of slipped my mind, I'm ready now though icon_twisted.gif
  • twilight2010

    Posts: 307

    Jul 14, 2011 8:22 AM GMT
    Where was God during the Holocaust?

    In the Holocaust it is estimated that under twenty million jews were killed.

    Where was God?

    Understand this. God did not divorce Himself from the Jews it was Israel who cut themselves off from God by rejecting the Messiah Jesus. Jesus said your house is left to you desolate.

    Where was God when the Romans took the city in AD70 and killed millions of Jews?

    Pilate washed his hands clean of any part of Jesus death. The jews said let His blood be on us and all our children. They not only rejected the King they so waited for but they also killed Him.

    Where was God when the Vatican killed over 50 million people(Gods Saints)? God was with them. God fed them the word that was so scarce. God showed them the way to truth and millions were killed for not obeying the Pope laws. The vatican has killed more people of God than any other.

    God was with His people. We must suffer for Christ and die for His word. The time is coming when the Christian persecution is going to happen again. It is close. Christians need to be prepared.

    These questions all tie together. God knows everything and He sees everything. It was Jesus who told the Jews they would be left desolate. Just like He said they were killed.

    God will not fight for people who are not obedient to Him. The greatest isult to God was to reject Jesus.

    The Jews sealed their own doom. God was there, but Israel asked for this. Let His blood be upon us and our children. By saying this they cursed themselves with Gods judgment as well as on their children.

    Israel has divorced itself from God by rejecting Jesus Christ. There is no excuse whatsoever that Israel failed to accept the Messiah. They had the ddate and time and public statement from Simeon as well as anna and the Shepherds and the wise men and even Herod knew. Everyone knew, John the baptist even knew and many converted to Jesus.

    The Israel of God is no longer in the middle east, it is the christian believers who are the NEW Israel. God will fulfill His promises in Isaac, if you are Christs seed then you are the true Israel.

    So where was God? God was there.
  • twilight2010

    Posts: 307

    Jul 14, 2011 8:54 AM GMT

    But, I'm a simpleton, so that's why I asked. So, was God there, or not? What do you think? Hitler was devoutly Catholic...so, what would it take for divine intervention?[/quote]

    Hitler was not devoted to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. His devotion was to a man called Pope Pius XII. It was this same pope who introduced the dogma of Mary assumption into heaven.

    The same Pope sat and watched through the extermination of the Jews.

    This is not devoted to Jesus Christ. Hitler was antichrist to the core.
    He was an evil man.

    The devil knows the scriptures more than any human does. After all the devil himself quoted the scriptures to Jesus when tempting Him.

    Just because you know and speak and quote from the scriptures does not make you a good man in Gods sight.

    You must live the life of Christ.

    You must worship the one true God.(there are many wolves in sheep’s clothing) yes Hitler said he was doing it for God by quoting scripture but in reality he was not.

    God allowed it. He could have stopped it but the sins of Israel brought this on themselves.
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    Jul 14, 2011 2:05 PM GMT
    Donovan said, "God allowed it. He could have stopped it but the sins of Israel brought this on themselves."

    You absolutely appall me. People like you nearly cost me my faith when I was younger.

    -Doug
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    Jul 14, 2011 2:15 PM GMT
    NotThatOld said, "The whole world lies under the power of the Wicked One"

    That was written by someone that said that John said that Christ said that.

    I think 'the wicked one' was a clever invention abrogating responsibility for our own shortcomings.
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    Jul 14, 2011 2:17 PM GMT
    I see nothing but an extreme example of man acting on his free will behind the Holocaust itself. I see God in the fact that some lived to tell about the horror of it.

    Just my $0.02.
  • twilight2010

    Posts: 307

    Jul 15, 2011 2:32 PM GMT
    meninlove said Donovan said, "God allowed it. He could have stopped it but the sins of Israel brought this on themselves."

    You absolutely appall me. People like you nearly cost me my faith when I was younger.

    -Doug


    Doug the only one we can find peace in is Jesus Christ. He is the ladder in which we all will go to heaven if we climb it in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

    Why did God allow Israel to be captive? What came down on Israel in this prophecy? It was the judgment of God.

    You see God used the Assyrians to do His will. That will was to punish Israel for it’s sins.

    "When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, "I will punish the King of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eye. For he says, `By the strength of my hand I have done this, and by my wisdom, because I have understanding. I removed the boundaries of the nations; I plundered their treasures; like a mighty one I subdued their kings.'" Isa. 10:12,13

    God used the hand of the King of Assyria to punnish Israel for its sins. Then this King let his victory go to his head and then God said He will deal with this King.

    God said it was Him who punnished Israel using the arm of Assyrians to complete His judgment.

    The same goes for the Israel when they rejected Jesus and killed Him, the blood of Jesus was on al Israel they cursed themselves. This is the Holy word of God.

    God does not tollerate sin and He punnishes when He chooses to. At the same time if the people would repent and change God would spare them. But God let terrible things happen to Israel because their sins were against the Most High.

    Dough this is the word of God it is Supreme and it is infalible. God is above all and what He says is final.

    Sin = death and these are the wages of our works in sin, unless we embrace Christ and the Salvation He brings we are going to be punnished terribly like Israel.

    You have faith, believe in the Gospels and do not mock Gods word.
  • twilight2010

    Posts: 307

    Jul 15, 2011 2:48 PM GMT
    What Jesus is saying though is not profound or new. What he is saying is, is that assholes rule the world. They did it then, they do it now, they'll do it forever.[/quote]

    Yes indeed. There will be good leaders and evil ones and people will force people to break Gods laws for example the Sabbath. Christ did not come to die in vain, It is Jesus that will bring an end to all the evil.

    The Bible says evil will be destroyed when Christ returns in the Clouds of Heaven.

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    Jul 15, 2011 8:24 PM GMT
    Donovan said to me, "You have faith, believe in the Gospels and do not mock Gods word."

    I don't. I take the book in context to its writers and their fallibility as humans.

    While you're wisely (or foolishly) judging god's with-holding mercy during the Holocaust, you forget AGAIN that Christ said, as he died, "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do."

    Do you think god listened to Christ and forgave them? Or did god ignore Christ and condemn them?

    -Doug
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    Jul 16, 2011 1:07 AM GMT
    Donovan said, "God allowed it. He could have stopped it but the sins of Israel brought this on themselves."


    Your God sounds more like a devil. What kind of God would punish his creation because of something their country did as a whole?
  • twilight2010

    Posts: 307

    Jul 17, 2011 9:42 AM GMT
    Scruffypup saidDonovan said, "God allowed it. He could have stopped it but the sins of Israel brought this on themselves."


    Your God sounds more like a devil. What kind of God would punish his creation because of something their country did as a whole?


    God will punish sin.

    Sin is what separates us from God

    These people in Israel said let the blood of Jesus be on us and all our children.. His blood was on them.

    Gods ways are not our own. We do not under no circumstances speak on Gods behalf. If the Holy Spirit has spoken so be it, it is absolute truth. Israel worship terrible idols and divorced themselves from God, it was not God who did it. God is loving and if we embrace Him, we have salvation through Jesus Christ and Him alone.

    If you want protection you got to go under His wings and He will protect you. There are terrible jugments coming and God will show the world just how sin will be dealt with.

    According to the Holy word when Jesus comes it is curtains for the sinners, Jesus is not coming on a donkey he is arriving with all the angels of heaven and let me tell you this when He arrives all evil is destroyed Jesus will arive in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God..

    Now is the time to know Jesus
    Now is the time to repent
    Now is the time to eat the bread of life(Jesus) word of God

    Before the sky opens, when it does it is too late
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    Jul 19, 2011 4:09 AM GMT
    This thread...wow. Fascinating. I appreciate mightily the wise words of those sharing understanding against those who spat out the regurgitated words of the mastermind christian "faith" COUGH business.

    In my view, the Holocaust was meant to be ironic. To show that so many could become so enslaved in the powers of groupthink, revealing the inherant cowardice of the human to stand out against the powerful sway of the masses, all of them bending to the whims of their ruling and surrounding cohabitants. Christians I call conformists, and though many good people are Christians, many better people know Truth.

    You who say that Israel divorced themselves from God are operating out of the toxic view bludgeoned into you by Christianity, the most evil force because of its invention of the Devil, and Evil. The Devil, obviously, does not exist. Perhaps I may enlighten those of you in the sway of the Church's maniacal grasp of your imagination: Cold is not an energy. There is only heat. What we think of as "cold" is merely the absence of heat. Likewise, what we think of as "evil" may better be understood as the absence of good.

    Know why Christianity-spreaders don't embrace philosophy? Because it demands that your brain think for itself, a process that would virtually eradicate Christianity from the world by peoples' own intellect. What Christianity did was maim the natural moral compass of the human to create a hysterical sense of madness involving completely black and white thinking--the Devil! God! The Devil! God! Pay us tax exempt money!

    A renaissance perspective on Judaism enables you to develop a new model for God as an emergent phenomenon (a renaissance perspective means not conservative--fresh, open-minded, game for reinvention to adapt to a changing world) To make ones own mind a mutually significant leader of the religious path along with your fellows, reveals your own curiosities and slants that will ultimately guide your journey. The monstrous and terrible thing about Christianity is that it so expertly has brainwashed so many people that one may argue the devil does exist through their global conception of him--WRONG. Santa never existed just because many kids at this second think he does. Funny that if you rework Santa letters you get Satan. (I say we remove this cultural tradition on the basis that it deprives young minds of reality in the most crucial years of development) I did not react well to learning of the lie of santa--I overheard my dad telling my older bro the easter bunny isnt real, and I walked into the room and said "so Santa isn't real either?"

    The Christians are the only ones keeping the devil alive--alive in their mind yet not really breathing, not REAL. They are afraid and controlled people, and the human DOES know what they do to counter the "evidence" one of you used of Jesus asking his father for forgiveness because humans "don't know". We are responsible, when sane, and We Know. This Jesus character sounds like one sly ego-maniac (Although I suspect the whole thing is an elaborate "scenario")

    Now, if this supposed instance of the Word of God is so real, so significant, why did the world flourish before Christ? Why do advancements in so many areas often come from non-christians? Christianity makes the human passive, makes the ultimate power something the human will never attain, which is terrible for a being who conceives its own future, because by way of self-fulfilling prophecy, they believe they are inherently bad.

    Judaism says we have equal capability for good and bad, but that there is no "force" of bad, only good. The devil exists only to be the adversary for Jesus, the supposed hero who starts the fire he rescues people from.

    I found a book at the library in the section for Jewish literature, titled "There Is No Messiah, And You're It" This is the type of attitude the world needs, not a bunch of bystanders waiting for other people to do the hard work, the heavy lifting. If you see a lamb fall into a barbed wire fence, are you going to let it die there, that it will be saved because "god will help him"? No. You can save that lamb. God in my view is everything that exists, so is inherently real---masculine, feminine, any mixture of the two.

    Now this means that the equal materials involved in terrible deeds are equally involved in great deeds, leading to the significance of human intent. Intending to spread strength and longevity for others out of a selfless world view are the most important things for our world, yet when that comes hand in hand with an erosive world view like Christianity, many many horrific problems occur. Far more murder and death and suffering has happened in the name of Jesus than if the guy had never come. Tell me humans didn't already know love was the most significant part of life and I will call you a fool.

    The idea of Jesus is like a computer virus designed to be The One Dominator--to go to every place and leave only its name, its imprint. I believe it is a sort of inside joke whose last laugh is nothing more than money in the "Religious Leader's pockets". I would love to see all his thieves brought to trial.

    As an entity the force of Christianity seems to seek to squash forever the ability of the human to wonder what the Big Frame of this existence is, placing ridiculous concepts into our brains of angels and demons when in reality there is only Humans, and those beings that share this planet with us, and/or occupy other planets. Christianity was written by men who thought the world was flat. Below does not symbolize hell, and red does not symbolize evil. All of this has come out of the mahcines of propaganda, and you on here who shamelessly refer to yourself as a simpleton implore me to urge you to view yourself in a more accurate, flattering light--you are an individual with infinite capability stagnating in a world-view that you are finite, and you seem comfortable with staying at your current level of understanding.

    How would you measure the success of your life differently were the criteria to presuppose that you are the messiah? See what I mean? We all are capable of such great heights that there is nothing to come from waiting for Jesus beyond putting more money in the church's pocket, and enabling your local priest to buy another mansion.

    The Holocaust was undertaken by a man who was part Jewish and likely part homosexual, acting out self-hatred on a scale never before seen. This man was a coward and a manipulative master, exactly like the designers of Christianity, using fear to drive their endeavors. No wonder Hitler was Lutheran. (Not Catholic as one said)

    I have direct family whom I will love forever that see themselves as Christians, so I by no means mean to drag you down as a person, because in spirit you are my sibling. But Christianity I would warn you to stay away from, because that is the only place on God's green Earth that will bring you near "the devil". Funny that devil backwards is lived, and he never did. Love is celebrated world round, and you don't need to love life any less just by seeing it for what we all are. We design our existence. There is no authority over any of us because we decide what will happen.

    During the Holocaust, God was getting gassed. God was doing the gassing. God was everywhere and everything simultaneously, and this expansive sense of self will be felt by you if you open yourself to it. There is much to be done yet and the world is young, archaic compared to what we Will Be.

    Love conquers all.
    Summing up my words:
    There is only good, and the absence of good.
    Isn't clarity transcendent?


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    Aug 14, 2011 1:56 PM GMT
    donovan1979 said
    Scruffypup saidDonovan said, "God allowed it. He could have stopped it but the sins of Israel brought this on themselves."


    Your God sounds more like a devil. What kind of God would punish his creation because of something their country did as a whole?


    God will punish sin.

    Sin is what separates us from God

    These people in Israel said let the blood of Jesus be on us and all our children.. His blood was on them.

    Gods ways are not our own. We do not under no circumstances speak on Gods behalf. If the Holy Spirit has spoken so be it, it is absolute truth. Israel worship terrible idols and divorced themselves from God, it was not God who did it. God is loving and if we embrace Him, we have salvation through Jesus Christ and Him alone.

    If you want protection you got to go under His wings and He will protect you. There are terrible jugments coming and God will show the world just how sin will be dealt with.

    According to the Holy word when Jesus comes it is curtains for the sinners, Jesus is not coming on a donkey he is arriving with all the angels of heaven and let me tell you this when He arrives all evil is destroyed Jesus will arive in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God..

    Now is the time to know Jesus
    Now is the time to repent
    Now is the time to eat the bread of life(Jesus) word of God

    Before the sky opens, when it does it is too late



    Youre simply wrong.

    And youre using the same argument the Nazis used before they gassed tyhe jews at Sobibor, Treblinka and Auschwitz.

    Remember the Tower of Siloam that fell on the jews? jesus said it had nopthing to do with their sin, it was an accident.

    The Holocaust was inhumanity.. and god fulfilled His promose by preventing the Jews from being wiped out totally.,. they are STILL his chosen people..

    and what sickens me beyond belief is your narrow minded, literalism- do you not think????????????