Low testosterone & Clomid

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 15, 2011 4:51 PM GMT
    So I found out some depressing news today. My testosterone is at an ungodly low level, and my doctor thinks that could be a contributing factor as to why I'm a bit depressed lately. He also thinks it's THE reason I can't get results from weight lifting.

    My eating habits are impeccable. I time my meals correctly, eat the right proportions from high quality food, say no to junk, alcohol, and drugs. I work out at least 6 days a week (pretty intense), but basically my body will not push itself past being just "average". I started weightlifting for size since I was 17 and have gotten minimal results. Fitness is my passion, so surely you can recognize this as being pretty devastating to me. It sucks that I care SO MUCH about physique, yet I have nothing to show for it. That's why I don't post shirtless pics on my profile like some of you guys, haha. Anyways, getting to my point:

    My doctor has just taken a second blood test to confirm my testosterone levels, though I'm sure nothing's changed since I'm pretty much asexual for the time being icon_rolleyes.gif My teste levels are about 330, with the upper ceiling of natural testosterone being around 800 i believe, and the lower being 250 (rough numbers based on the chart he showed me). I have the levels of a deceased man! icon_lol.gif

    He's prescribed me with Clomid, which he says gets a person's body to produce testosterone to natural levels. I was wondering if anybody's had any positive or negative experience with this? I'll admit, I was a bit bummed out that he didn't prescribe something stronger like a testosterone booster or supplement (I hear so many good things from people who do have low testosterone that take these), but he says this is the safest way to start out, and we'll go from there.

    But yeah, does anybody have experience with this drug? And are there any other supplements or methods of increasing testosterone? Any response is GREATLY appreciated. Thanks guys!

    UPDATE: So I got a call back. My testosterone is 471, and my doctor thinks that's high enough to not put me on any sort of supplement. To me, that's ridiculous. For someone who's 23 years old, I feel like it should be higher. What is the big deal with putting me on something to boost it up naturally? Would it really be that big of a deal?

    What do you suggest? Should I look for another doctor?
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    Jul 15, 2011 5:02 PM GMT

    CLOMID (aka)
    Clomiphene is used to induce ovulation (egg production) in women who do not produce ova (eggs) but wish to become pregnant (infertility). Clomiphene is in a class of medications called ovulatory stimulants. It works similarly to estrogen, a female hormone that causes eggs to develop in the ovaries and be released.
    Clomiphene citrate (Clomid¨, Serophene¨) - in tablet form, this medication may be used if you have infrequent periods or long menstrual cycles. The most common side effects are headaches, blurred vision, and hot flashes. Contact your doctor if you experience pelvic pain.

    Are you also trying to get pregnant???
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    Jul 15, 2011 5:05 PM GMT
    That's not quite all it's used for ;)

    Read my entire post. It increases a man's testosterone production.

    I'm not trying to bear anyone's babies yet!
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    Jul 15, 2011 5:11 PM GMT

    OK...I also found THIS

    "Clomiphene is also sometimes used to treat male infertility, menstrual abnormalities, fibrocystic breasts, and persistent breast milk production. Talk to your doctor about the possible risks of using this medication for your condition."

    But it doesn't actually sound like you might have a fertility problem. I don't quite understand why the doctor didn't Rx a testosterone booster for you.
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    Jul 15, 2011 5:17 PM GMT
    I'll have to ask him about it more when I see him again. Not too sure about Clomid >
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    Jul 15, 2011 5:21 PM GMT

    Have you done thorough research on the signs or indications of low testosterone.
    Just curious, you're awfully young for this...or so it seems to me. Do you have any body hair other than the pubic area? Is your voice level normal for being a man?
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    Jul 15, 2011 5:24 PM GMT

    I've been getting my info on Clomid and think you might take a look at it, too.


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0000752/
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    Jul 15, 2011 5:27 PM GMT

    Indications of low testosterone.

    "Although it’s normal for testosterone levels to drop as men age, low testosterone can affect a man’s health. In many ways, testosterone is the stuff that makes men men. The rush of new testosterone in puberty builds muscle and bone, deepens the voice, and revs up the sex drive. Throughout a man’s life, testosterone maintains his male characteristics.

    Testosterone levels decline steadily after age 40. The decline is relatively small, at an average rate of about 1% to 2% percent per year. By middle age and older, virtually all men experience some decline in testosterone -- but only a small percentage of aging men have levels far below those considered normal for their age."

    Found this here:

    http://men.webmd.com/features/low-testosterone-explained-how-do-you-know-when-levels-are-too-low
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    Jul 15, 2011 5:29 PM GMT

    OK... after reading as much as I have, I suggest you (1) tell your doctor what YOU have found out, or (2) get another doctor...at least another opinion.
    You ARE much to young for this level.
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    Jul 15, 2011 5:57 PM GMT
    I think I will... I just don't want to spend too much money seeing different doctors, you know? I've heard such great things from testosterone boosters as far as mood and results go, so I'd be willing to try it.

    And it's definitely not normal. A 45 year old man should have around 600 I believe.
  • wild_sky360

    Posts: 1492

    Jul 15, 2011 7:04 PM GMT
    Clomid is used by competitive bodybuilders after a cycle of steroids. I thought it was primarily used to suppress / mop up excess estrogens that can result from supping with T. Now I am recalling that it also helps restore natural production, which is shut down by using supplemental testosterone...even if you have little to begin with.
    Google Clomid bodybuilding. These guys wrote the book that doctors are now starting to read. Unlike most, your doc seems to have read past the first page.

    I suspect you have a very knowledgeable physician. The clomid, may or may not alleviate ALL your symptoms, RIGHT away. But, it may be a diagnostic trial. The results may reveal clues to the cause of your severely low T. At your young age, I think it would be quite reckless to just boost you up to normal without understanding how this happened in the first place. I'm sure you can find one who will; but just DON'T.

    Another consideration is that some men function quite well on relatively low T levels, as long as their Free T is high enough. Free T is simply a ratio that factors in testosterone agonists like SHBG levels and Estrogen levels. If clomid knocks down your estrogen a bit, even your low T level may be enough to get you feeling normal again. Everyone is different. You're not a number.

    You mentioned he wanted to START with clomid. That's a good sign. The least intervention the better...unless you're really hurtin it'll be worth the wait to go slow and figure it out. At 23 do you really want to start injecting yourself twice a week for life? didn't think so. That's an option if necessary but take the easy route if possible.

    If it turns out you really need extra testosterone, the next trial might be with HCG human chorionic gonadatropin sp? This one for sure...directly stimulates your testes to produce more. If it comes to it, definitely consider this one before injecting T. It's still artificial stimulation, but better / more natural than direct supplementation. This is also used by comp bb post cycle...allmost universally.
    Even if you wind up supping with T....alternate using HCG to preserve what natural production you have..and for appearances sake..keeps your nutsack full.

    Back to how this happened....
    Barring some injury, start recalling any toxic exposures. ie. do you work at a tollbooth? etc. Many culprits are not even expected. Did you know that unfermented soy, ie soymilk soy protein, tofu, are all potential gender bending endocrine disrupters. So are certain plastics. Never drink from a soft plastic water bottle that's overheated in your garage or car. Never microwave food on or in plastic. Remove it to a normal ceramic etc plate.

    Good luck with this. My two cents is that you probably have a very good doc, but even then, for best results, you have to know as much about your condition as he does. Contrary to popular belief, they are not gods.

    Feel free to email if you have questions. I only know this for going through it. I know the pitfalls from my friends experiences with inexperienced docs that just dabble with this stuff. It's becoming mainstream and quite a profitable line of business with some very expensive new testosterone supplements. Insurance is willing to pay, so they are pushing them really hard; often without examining cause or monitoring side effects. There are plenty.
  • vj2004t

    Posts: 203

    Jul 15, 2011 7:08 PM GMT
    Dude I found out I had low t also. Doc put me on cypionate it is fabulous. Arm and chest muscles starting popping in 4days. Sex went thruthe roof, and I felt like a 20 yo again. It has been over a month now I find no loss in testicles size.Google cypionate and
    U can get a lot more info on it.
    Val
  • wild_sky360

    Posts: 1492

    Jul 15, 2011 7:16 PM GMT
    vj2004t saidDude I found out I had low t also. Doc put me on cypionate it is fabulous. Arm and chest muscles starting popping in 4days. Sex went thruthe roof, and I felt like a 20 yo again. It has been over a month now I find no loss in testicles size.Google cypionate and
    U can get a lot more info on it.
    Val


    I'll vouch for that, but the guy is 23. Somethins up, and they need to figure that out before using the big guns.

    Check out alternating with HCG or even simultaneous with a reduction of cypionate. If you go too long...few more months, it may no longer be an option.
  • jtcrew65

    Posts: 29

    Jul 15, 2011 7:17 PM GMT
    Did your doctor do any other tests besides looking at testosterone levels? If he's given you clomiphene, he might be interested to see if your hormone regulatory system works.

    Since clomiphene works to boost your natural production of testosterone, he might just be checking to see if you have the capacity to produce more testosterone (in which case, the pituitary or hypothalamus might just not make enough of the hormones that tell the testes to produce testosterone). If that's the case, you don't have to take a testosterone analog (like cypionate), but instead a hormone that stimulates the testes (or decreases feedback) as treatment.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 15, 2011 7:31 PM GMT
    Clomid is a selective estrogen receptor modulator. It binds to estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and thus by negative feedback loops the pituitary gland excretes more FSH and LH.

    LH stimulates the Leydig cells in the testes to produce more testosterone.
  • wild_sky360

    Posts: 1492

    Jul 15, 2011 7:48 PM GMT
    Lux_ saidClomid is a selective estrogen receptor modulator. It binds to estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and thus by negative feedback loops the pituitary gland excretes more FSH and LH.

    LH stimulates the Leydig cells in the testes to produce more testosterone.


    Do you know what effect it has on estrogen levels?
    I thought it was a lowering strategy, other than aromatase inhibitors.
  • wild_sky360

    Posts: 1492

    Jul 15, 2011 7:53 PM GMT
    Lux_ saidClomid is a selective estrogen receptor modulator. It binds to estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and thus by negative feedback loops the pituitary gland excretes more FSH and LH.

    LH stimulates the Leydig cells in the testes to produce more testosterone.


    Well there you go gaydar. Pop a pill instead of injecting. I think HCG is more direct, but depending on the prescribed protocol, might require daily injections with a tiny insulin needle.
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    Jul 15, 2011 9:24 PM GMT
    Gaydar saidSo I found out some depressing news today. My testosterone is at an ungodly low level, and my doctor thinks that could be a contributing factor as to why I'm a bit depressed lately. He also thinks it's THE reason I can't get results from weight lifting.

    My eating habits are impeccable. I time my meals correctly, eat the right proportions from high quality food, say no to junk, alcohol, and drugs. I work out at least 6 days a week (pretty intense), but basically my body will not push itself past being just "average". I started weightlifting for size since I was 17 and have gotten minimal results. Fitness is my passion, so surely you can recognize this as being pretty devastating to me. It sucks that I care SO MUCH about physique, yet I have nothing to show for it. That's why I don't post shirtless pics on my profile like some of you guys, haha. Anyways, getting to my point:

    My doctor has just taken a second blood test to confirm my testosterone levels, though I'm sure nothing's changed since I'm pretty much asexual for the time being icon_rolleyes.gif My teste levels are about 330, with the upper ceiling of natural testosterone being around 800 i believe, and the lower being 250 (rough numbers based on the chart he showed me). I have the levels of a deceased man! icon_lol.gif

    He's prescribed me with Clomid, which he says gets a person's body to produce testosterone to natural levels. I was wondering if anybody's had any positive or negative experience with this? I'll admit, I was a bit bummed out that he didn't prescribe something stronger like a testosterone booster or supplement (I hear so many good things from people who do have low testosterone that take these), but he says this is the safest way to start out, and we'll go from there.

    But yeah, does anybody have experience with this drug? And are there any other supplements or methods of increasing testosterone? Any response is GREATLY appreciated. Thanks guys!


    Just wondering-
    Could this be the result of excessive workouts ("at least 6 days a week (pretty intense)" without giving sufficient time for the body to recover and grow bigger?
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    Jul 16, 2011 12:58 AM GMT
    It's not all weight training. I alternate weight training days with HIIT cardio days.

    Thanks for the responses so far, guys.
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    Jul 16, 2011 12:59 AM GMT
    MuchMoreThanMuscle saidNow I understand more of what is going on. The OP sent me a private e-mail asking me about Clomid.

    I liked using Clomid when coming off of a cycle. I'm not sure you can take it daily for life for your condition. I think you would take it in cycle or a small dose.

    One of the side effects that concern me about the prolonged use of Clomid is that it can create blurred vision. I would not want to take anything that would mess with my vision.

    Good luck.


    Yeah, sorry about that message. I had just gotten home and was frantic for advice/research.
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    Jul 16, 2011 1:22 AM GMT
    This is very interesting - as you said, your testosterone level seems to be that of a really really old guy. Have you had similar readings in the past? If this is the first time, I would a actually suggest getting it done again, maybe at another facility just to make sure it's not an erroneous measurement.

    Otherwise I think your doctor seems to be using a good strategy for increasing your testosterone production. Has he looked at your LH and GnRH levels? These can also be telling as to where the deficiency lies and can be valuable for diagnosing the exact deficiency. Prolactin levels may also be of interest, especially if your LH is low.
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    Jul 16, 2011 10:26 AM GMT
    skifan08 saidThis is very interesting - as you said, your testosterone level seems to be that of a really really old guy. Have you had similar readings in the past? If this is the first time, I would a actually suggest getting it done again, maybe at another facility just to make sure it's not an erroneous measurement.

    Otherwise I think your doctor seems to be using a good strategy for increasing your testosterone production. Has he looked at your LH and GnRH levels? These can also be telling as to where the deficiency lies and can be valuable for diagnosing the exact deficiency. Prolactin levels may also be of interest, especially if your LH is low.


    Actually, they drew more blood today. My doctor wants to try again just to confirm. Though, to be honest, and this is kind of embarrassing, but my libido has been very low the past couple of weeks, so I'm pretty confident it will show up low again. I don't get that much desire anymore at all. It really seemed to dissipate after reaching age 19/20, but now it's gotten worse. I have been under ton of stress the past entire year, both physically and emotionally, so that could be a contributing factor.

    I'm not sure if he looked at LH or GnRH. I'm actually not familiar with those x.x
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    Jul 16, 2011 11:23 AM GMT
    GnRH is released by the hypothalamus to stimulate production of LH (leutenizing hormone) and FSH(follicle stimulating hormone) from the pituitary. LH then stimulates the leydig cells of the testis to secrete testosterone and FSH acts on the Sertoli cells (guardians of the sperm precursors) and testosterone on the sperm themselves. Testosterone also acts on other tissues of the body either directly or via its derivative DHT to cause masculinization. Testosterone (and estrogen, which it can be converted to, especially by fat) feed back to the hypothalamus and pituitary to stop GnRH and LH secretion. What clomid will do is inhibit the estrogen receptors on the hypothalamus so that you secrete more GnRH --> more LH --> more testosterone. By testing levels of GnRH and LH the doctor can identify whether your testosterone deficiency is primary, meaning your Leydig cells are defective in your testis (you'd have low testosterone with high LH and GnRH), secondary, meaning your pituitary secretion of LH is defective (you'd have low testosterone and LH with high GnRH) or tertiary in which case you'd have low testosterone, low LH and low GnRh). Prolactin is the hormone that gets women to lactate and which is produced by the pituitary as well. Sometimes people can have small benign humors called prolactinomas in the pituitary which secrete prolactin. Prolactin secretion is inhibited by dopamine therefore people taking dopamine inhibitors such as antipsychotic drugs can also have increased prolactin levels. One (of many) role of prolactin is to stop ovulation and sex drive (and other stuff) in females so that while they are nursing their babies they don't get preggers again and divert resources to another child. In men prolactin also reduces testosterone (and other stuff) by inhibiting LH production --> low testosterone. That's why you would want to check prolactin levels in someone with low testosterone. I hope this was helpful. If you gave other questions let me know!

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    Jul 16, 2011 9:58 PM GMT
    My brain exploded! Haha. Thanks for the responses icon_smile.gif
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Jul 16, 2011 10:04 PM GMT
    Well read your post and while I am probably the opposite from you, I wanted to really be encouraging. FIrst, kudos to you for really exploring what was wrong and for asking help from your doctor. There are many
    men who wouldn't do a darn thing because it would seem too embarassing.
    Also, it takes guts to talk about it here... thanks for that. There are guys here that have some of the same issues, no doubt and most won't talk about them. Many of us might have an issue someday.... we need to hear about some of this now... Please keep us informed as to your progress and whats happening with your medication, your count and how you are feeling.
    Is is an example of a "invisible men's issue" that probably wouldn't be discussed openly. Awesome that you are!

    icon_biggrin.gif