Comparing Civil Rights Movement to...well you know...

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    Jul 17, 2011 7:40 PM GMT
    Controversial Thread OK I was reading the link Metta8 provided about Military Service Members marching in the Pride Parade at: http://news.yahoo.com/military-members-march-san-diego-gay-pride-000617150.html

    I came across this comment by a service member called Jerome Fuller here's what he wrote in response to a comment:

    "I am in the military and an African-American. I will never equate the civil rights movement to what the gay community is going through. To even imply that is disrespectful to the many people that have died fighting for equal rights for African-Americans. I will never be ok with grown men/drag queens dressing as nuns or dressed as pirates wearing G-strings in public. What does this behavior have to do with being attracted to a member of the same sex? None! It just reinforces stereotypes. It will never be ok for a service member to march in uniform in this type of spectacle."

    He received 34 thumbs up and 8 thumbs down

    On another note isnt funny that this guy completely forgets to include Female Sodomites in the mix, per usual it's always Male Homosexuals who have the bare the brunt of criticism. I'm guessing he's not bothered by drag kings and women dressed in thongs and fetish gear making out. Asshole.

    I am curious to know what you guys think about what he said. Personally, I think it is a very grave danger to compare desire to have national same gender marriage to the Civil Rights Movement, and I believe such a comparison actually causes more divisive attitudes between Heterosexual and Homosexuals as well as a Racial Divide. As for the Servicemen marching I'm mostly for it, although I have a mixed perception of Pride Parade I do think most people exaggerate the extremes of the Parade and the fringe aspects simply stands out more.
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    Jul 17, 2011 8:03 PM GMT
    Does Jerome Fuller say he's a homosexual male? How does he know what the gay community is going through today and in the past?

    Not being African-American myself, I wouldn't know how to compare either minorities struggles on a personal level. I wouldn't try to call them one in the same, that's just stupid.

    I think he's mixing his fruit up when he compares people in uniform to people in g-strings in a Pride march. They're both marching because they're proud of who they are. icon_razz.gif

    He's got two separate issues that he's bunching together, viewing the history of two classes of minorities as equal and then the inappropriate attire worn in a Pride march. So what if it reinforces stereotypes!

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    Jul 17, 2011 8:06 PM GMT
    He is not Homosexual he is a Heterosexual Service member that finds it inappropriate and offensive that some Homosexuals would dare compare their rights to the Civil Rights Movement, which he does have the right to be offended. But looking at this from a broad scope doesn't that comparison create more of a divide between Heterosexuals and Homosexuals and also hinder race relations?

    I don't care much about Pride Parades or if people find them distasteful I just find it peculiar that his knee jerk reaction was to condemn Male Homosexuals, but ignore the Lesbians acting and dressing inappropriately in the very same PARADE!
  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    Jul 17, 2011 8:10 PM GMT
    icon_idea.gif Does he hold women's civil rights in the same regards as African American Civil Rights Movement? Considering his point of view about how African Americans were harassed, beaten and killed, women weren't treated as such (perhaps harassed), yet they are part of American civil rights progress. icon_idea.gif

    I had a co-worker, retired Army officer, get upset about this same topic. I argued with him, in the second person no less.
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    Jul 17, 2011 8:14 PM GMT
    DodgedBullet said. . . . I don't care much about Pride Parades or if people find them distasteful I just find it peculiar that his knee jerk reaction was to condemn Male Homosexuals, but ignore the Lesbians acting and dressing inappropriately in the very same PARADE!
    Has anyone ever witnessed a Dyke March, such as we have with the Atlanta Pride parade? There may be 100 to 200 bare-brested lesbians in tow. A view of that makes being gay definitely a choice for me. [LOL]
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    Jul 17, 2011 8:15 PM GMT
    But looking at this from a broad scope doesn't that comparison create more of a divide between Heterosexuals and Homosexuals and also hinder race relations?

    >Only if that person believes their class struggle was harder, better, more valid, and justified than the other person's battle, would they then see a comparison as inappropriate and offensive.


    I don't care much about Pride Parades or if people find them distasteful I just find it peculiar that his knee jerk reaction was to condemn Male Homosexuals, but ignore the Lesbians acting and dressing inappropriately in the very same PARADE!

    >Maybe he enjoyed looking at a woman walking down the street in thong, that's not surprising.
  • coolarmydude

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    Jul 17, 2011 8:16 PM GMT
    nabob7729 said
    DodgedBullet said. . . . I don't care much about Pride Parades or if people find them distasteful I just find it peculiar that his knee jerk reaction was to condemn Male Homosexuals, but ignore the Lesbians acting and dressing inappropriately in the very same PARADE!
    Has anyone ever witnessed a Dyke March, such as we have with the Atlanta Pride parade? There may be 100 to 200 bare-brested lesbians in tow. A view of that makes being gay definitely a choice for me. [LOL]


    That's more about feminism than it is about lesbianism.
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    Jul 17, 2011 8:18 PM GMT
    nabob7729 said
    DodgedBullet said. . . . I don't care much about Pride Parades or if people find them distasteful I just find it peculiar that his knee jerk reaction was to condemn Male Homosexuals, but ignore the Lesbians acting and dressing inappropriately in the very same PARADE!
    Has anyone ever witnessed a Dyke March, such as we have with the Atlanta Pride parade? There may be 100 to 200 bare-brested lesbians in tow. A view of that makes being gay definitely a choice for me. [LOL]


    That's exactly my point and it pisses me off every time someone critiques the Parades they only focus on the Males not the Women!! And if people think Lesbians are appropriately dressed at the Pride Parade think again check this thread scroll down about a third of the page (well it's not like you can miss the pics lol:http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1497114/?forumpage=2
  • masculumpedes

    Posts: 5549

    Jul 17, 2011 8:22 PM GMT
    DodgedBullet said

    That's exactly my point and it pisses me off every time someone critiques the Parades they only focus on the Males not the Women!! And if people think Lesbians are appropriately dressed at the Pride Parade think again check this thread scroll down about a third of the page (well it's not like you can miss the pics lol:http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1497114/?forumpage=2



    Could be because they find the males a threat to their own masculinity while they ( being straight) are attracted to the lesbians...icon_wink.gif
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    Jul 17, 2011 8:25 PM GMT
    As far the Civil Rights comparison is concerned I think he has a point, and I personally think that correlation should be avoided, it's not like Homosexuals don't have a History of being Tortured and Killed for their orientation so what is the need to compare it to the CRM knowing some African Americans and other races take it as a slap in the face? I mean if a lot of people find it offensive to compare same Sex Rights and the CRM why continue to do it? It actually causes more hate against Homosexuals, so the analogy should be avoided for the sake of peace. I mean you can just look to History to see 2000+ years of discrimination towards Homosexuals, another groups History doesn't need to be Hijacked in order to prove that you are being discriminated against.
  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    Jul 17, 2011 8:28 PM GMT
    DodgedBullet saidAs far the Civil Rights comparison is concerned I think he has a point, and I personally think that correlation should be avoided, it's not like Homosexuals don't have a History of being Tortured and Killed for their orientation so what is the need to compare it to the CRM knowing some African Americans and other races take it as a slap in the face? I mean if a lot of people find it offensive to compare same Sex Rights and the CRM why continue to do it? It actually causes more hate against Homosexuals, so the analogy should be avoided for the sake of peace. I mean you can just look to History to see 2000+ years of discrimination towards Homosexuals, another groups History doesn't need to be Hijacked in order to prove that you are being discriminated against.



    Don't you think the subject is a bit too sensitive to be sarcastic? Nevertheless, your point is spot on.
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    Jul 17, 2011 8:32 PM GMT
    coolarmydude said

    Don't you think the subject is a bit too sensitive to be sarcastic? Nevertheless, your point is spot on.


    Sarcasm whereicon_exclaim.gificon_question.gif
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    Jul 17, 2011 8:38 PM GMT
    DodgedBullet said
    coolarmydude said

    Don't you think the subject is a bit too sensitive to be sarcastic? Nevertheless, your point is spot on.


    Sarcasm whereicon_exclaim.gificon_question.gif


    Here we go - we are about to experience some turbulance. Please make sure yer seatbelts are fastened.
  • Anto

    Posts: 2035

    Jul 17, 2011 8:41 PM GMT
    That's exactly my point and it pisses me off every time someone critiques the Parades they only focus on the Males not the Women!!

    That's because our society is male focused/dominated. Mostly straight males. Men don't usually feel threatened by women so they don't care. Why do you think it's always about gay men in regard to gay issues usually? Guys think it's hot when women are together. Some don't but they are a minority. The only times I can think of men being against female homosexuality is when the women aren't attractive and are obvious in their rejection of men.
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    Jul 17, 2011 8:46 PM GMT
    jprichva saidI think it's offensive for me to be told what I may or may not compare our struggles with.


    Just imagine how some Black Folks feel to have their history compared to a few vocal Homosexuals not being able to be married. The crazy thing is the analogy is totally silly because Homosexuals have their own unique history of discrimination to use as a paradigm so why hijack a fellow minority groups past struggles?

    Yes it is plausible to have a shared struggle, but if many people find it blatantly disrespectful to compare the two, then the comparison should be avoided because it only creates more divisiveness than is necessary.

  • Anto

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    Jul 17, 2011 8:54 PM GMT
    Green_Panda saidI think he's got a point or two. I think the civil rights movement to get black people the equality they deserved was a far bigger deal than gay rights (we were never owned).


    He doesn't have any real point, just a bigoted view of suffering and civil rights.

    I think gays have been treated worse in some ways because despite having similar struggles in regard to violence and discrimination, gay people have been subject to a much more insidious form of persecution. I mean it has driven people to commit suicide, develop mental problems, experience rejection from family/friends/church/society. Gay people have been demonized as pedophiles, a threat to family, children, and even the human race.. Being gay was practically criminalized itself, gay acts have been criminalized.

    And yet such treatment is still well tolerated. How many people still think it's ok or just an opinion to debate the biological validity or homosexuality or gay marriage? To even vote on whether gays have or should have equal human rights?

    Now imagine that happening in regard to being black? It wouldn't be tolerated yet such 'considerations' are accepted in regard to homosexuals in our society even by black people despite their own history and similarities in persecution - and it's all considered civilized or intellectual discourse!
  • Anto

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    Jul 17, 2011 8:56 PM GMT
    DodgedBullet said
    jprichva saidI think it's offensive for me to be told what I may or may not compare our struggles with.


    Just imagine how some Black Folks feel to have their history compared to a few vocal Homosexuals not being able to be married.


    Probably the same way white folks felt when black folks were trying to equate themselves to white folks?
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    Jul 17, 2011 8:58 PM GMT
    Anto saidThat's exactly my point and it pisses me off every time someone critiques the Parades they only focus on the Males not the Women!!

    That's because our society is male focused/dominated. Mostly straight males. Men don't usually feel threatened by women so they don't care. Why do you think it's always about gay men in regard to gay issues usually? Guys think it's hot when women are together. Some don't but they are a minority. The only times I can think of men being against female homosexuality is when the women aren't attractive and are obvious in their rejection of men.


    Yes I'm well aware of that. I even made a thread about it: http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/1490401/ My point is Heterosexual men and women's fetish for "girl on girl" clouds their judgement when it attempts to criticize Homosexuality, ignoring Lesbians, but allowing Male Homos to bare the brunt of negative criticism, reinforcing the idea that there is an innate problem with Male Homosexuals, but that Lesbians are A-OK and can do no wrong.

    Hetero men jacking off to "girl on girl" does not and should not justify there hatred and revulsion against male Homos, it is HYPOCRITICAL. Guys think it's "hot" when women are together because they look at lesbians as just women and not in terms of their sexual orientation as well as disenfranchised minority. The funny thing is the stereotype for Lesbians is that they are overweight, brutish, unkempt and masculine. Hetero men choose to ignore these stereotypes against Lesbians, but when they focus on male homos all they see is stereotypes, which is in fact reinforcing their biases against Male Homos. This is a problem.

    ************************

    The bolded statement is primarily why I don't like the term "gay community" (There are several others too) When it is used it almost always tends to exclusively single out males, but largely ignores Lesbians and Transgenders/Transsexuals, unless they are M2F trans.

    As far as I'm concerned there is no such thing as a "gay community." For such a small group of people they are incredibly divided group.
  • Anto

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    Jul 17, 2011 8:59 PM GMT
    DodgedBullet said
    Yes it is plausible to have a shared struggle, but if many people find it blatantly disrespectful to compare the two, then the comparison should be avoided because it only creates more divisiveness than is necessary.


    Bias should be exposed not coddled and protected.
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    Jul 17, 2011 9:04 PM GMT
    Anto said
    DodgedBullet said
    Yes it is plausible to have a shared struggle, but if many people find it blatantly disrespectful to compare the two, then the comparison should be avoided because it only creates more divisiveness than is necessary.


    Bias should be exposed not coddled and protected.


    Could you clarify that statement please?
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    Jul 17, 2011 9:11 PM GMT
    His argument is muddled. I understand that his position is that the two struggles are not equivalent but am not sure if he is referring to the underlying rights at stake or the way in which each respective movement has attempted to advocate for the acquisition of those rights. African-Americans live with the legacy of being under conditions of servitude and being treated and regarded as less than human. Even after their freedom, they were actively segregated and faced social and institutional discrimination. So, in that sense the African-American civil rights challenges are clearly unique.

    Now, if he is talking about the execution of the two movements, I would say I agree with his disdain over the debauchery that is associated with the parades and his concern over the unintended associations that can result if military service people join the parades. However, I also recognize that the parades were a creative way to get people to think and talk about sexuality and perhaps it was necessary, especially because not too long ago people didn't even want to have a dialogue about same-sex issues, before we could initiate a more serious discussion. The unintended consequence of the parades is the stereotypes that we now have to live with.

    I'm guessing the person who wrote that comment is not homosexual or if he is, he is not familiar with some of the unique issues faced by homosexual men and women; else, he'd probably agree with the need for the "spectacle."

    Having said that, now that a dialogue has long started, I think the next step in the gay rights movement is a more cerebral battle: in securing domestic rights at the federal level.
  • coolarmydude

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    Jul 17, 2011 9:19 PM GMT
    DodgedBullet said
    jprichva saidI think it's offensive for me to be told what I may or may not compare our struggles with.


    Just imagine how some Black Folks feel to have their history compared to a few vocal Homosexuals not being able to be married. The crazy thing is the analogy is totally silly because Homosexuals have their own unique history of discrimination to use as a paradigm so why hijack a fellow minority groups past struggles?


    Civil rights is a struggle for equality. The process amongst varying demographics have their own unique paths towards equality. The qualifier for civil rights progress is struggle, not the degree to which the struggle is endured.
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    Jul 17, 2011 9:32 PM GMT
    theantijock said
    DodgedBullet saidif many people find it blatantly disrespectful to compare the two, then the comparison should be avoided because it only creates more divisiveness than is necessary.


    I agree: it is outrageous that a group of people who were enslaved for a mere 250 years should dare compare their struggle to a group treated as second class citizens for 1000s of years. They've got their nerve.


    pwnd haha
  • trainhard2011

    Posts: 231

    Jul 17, 2011 9:33 PM GMT
    DodgedBullet saidAs far the Civil Rights comparison is concerned I think he has a point, and I personally think that correlation should be avoided, it's not like Homosexuals don't have a History of being Tortured and Killed for their orientation so what is the need to compare it to the CRM knowing some African Americans and other races take it as a slap in the face? I mean if a lot of people find it offensive to compare same Sex Rights and the CRM why continue to do it? It actually causes more hate against Homosexuals, so the analogy should be avoided for the sake of peace. I mean you can just look to History to see 2000+ years of discrimination towards Homosexuals, another groups History doesn't need to be Hijacked in order to prove that you are being discriminated against.


    Gays were tortured and killed in WW2. They were sent to concentration camps by the thousands. Tests were conducted on them. They were sterilized, to name a few. Where do you think the upside purple triangle comes from? They were forced to wear it.

    This is why gay history is soooooo important in the educational system. So gay men know their history. Most don't.

  • trainhard2011

    Posts: 231

    Jul 17, 2011 9:43 PM GMT
    Civil Rights is a fight for equality. That's it. There are those within the movement who will be prejudice against gays with the "don't equate your sin with my skin" analogy, and who are also prejudice against Jews, "New York is Hymey Town" and "Let's get over the Holocaust already" but those with that ignorance are the minority within the Civil Rights movement.