Carmageddon: Another bogus "crisis" - free market principles at work

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 19, 2011 12:34 AM GMT


    This whole incident has vindicated the "free market." The media predicted disaster. But people made other arrangements. They left town, went to the beach, the mountains, stayed home, wherever. Some went to work and/or shopping as usual.

    And all this happened without the meddling of social and political busybodies. They didn't have to direct and plan each person's weekend for them.

    This is how the the larger society/economy works when white Liberal planners keep their noses out of it. Billions of decisions are made each day by citizens, and these decisions are out of the reach of the white Liberal statist. This causes them untold consternation.

    White Liberals are confounded - how could people have possibly coped with this societal breakdown without someone of greater intelligence and intellect guiding and directing their every decision?

    Answer: Very well, thank you. Now piss off.
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    Jul 19, 2011 1:59 AM GMT
    White Liberals are confounded - how could people have possibly coped with this societal breakdown without someone of greater intelligence and intellect guiding and directing their every decision?

    +1
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    Jul 19, 2011 2:28 AM GMT
    Free market forces would have seen people carry on their daily activities until all routes got jammed and THEN people would decide to stay home because it would be simply impossible for them to get anywhere. The way it happened, people listened to the media messages that were commissioned by... THE GOVERNMENT!!! Ohhhh nooooooo.
  • slimnmuscly

    Posts: 541

    Jul 19, 2011 2:29 AM GMT
    Your post is a classic example of mindless, rabid ideology triumphing over any connection to reality.

    Carmageddon turned out to be a non-crisis because of the hype from politicians and the media. The mayor and other LA politicians were on TV 24/7 imploring people to leave town, go to the beach, go the mountains, stay home or wherever, and that's what people did.

    They were also ready to hit the contractors with massive fines for being late -- that is, they meddled in the free market by hitting the private sector with a government imposed deadline; oh, the horror -- and the contractors responded just as the government wanted them to do.

    The weekend went exactly as liberal planners, white and otherwise, planned it. Directing millions of individuals' decisions was never part of the plan, and liberal politicans -- again, white and otherwise -- are crowing about what a success it was and saying let's do it again next year when they tear town the other part of the bridge. If that's what you call consternation, you're in dire need of vocabulary lessons.
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Jul 19, 2011 2:44 AM GMT
    slimnmuscly saidYour post is a classic example of mindless, rabid ideology triumphing over any connection to reality.

    Carmageddon turned out to be a non-crisis because of the hype from politicians and the media. The mayor and other LA politicians were on TV 24/7 imploring people to leave town, go to the beach, go the mountains, stay home or wherever, and that's what people did.

    They were also ready to hit the contractors with massive fines for being late -- that is, they meddled in the free market by hitting the private sector with a government imposed deadline; oh, the horror -- and the contractors responded just as the government wanted them to do.

    The weekend went exactly as liberal planners, white and otherwise, planned it. Directing millions of individuals' decisions was never part of the plan, and liberal politicans -- again, white and otherwise -- are crowing about what a success it was and saying let's do it again next year when they tear town the other part of the bridge. If that's what you call consternation, you're in dire need of vocabulary lessons.


    Not sure its a pure example of free market victory.

    It was a very pleasant weekend, having the neighborhood back for a weekend.

    For the most part these planners had exactly no idea what would happen.

    Btw , if you lived here you would know these planners also planned the simultaneous construction of laurel and coldwater canyon passes.
    Generally in Los Angele's -Cal Trans has ZERO credibility .
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    Jul 19, 2011 2:50 AM GMT
    JackNWNJ said

    This whole incident has vindicated the "free market." The media predicted disaster. But people made other arrangements. They left town, went to the beach, the mountains, stayed home, wherever. Some went to work and/or shopping as usual.

    And all this happened without the meddling of social and political busybodies. They didn't have to direct and plan each person's weekend for them.

    This is how the the larger society/economy works when white Liberal planners keep their noses out of it. Billions of decisions are made each day by citizens, and these decisions are out of the reach of the white Liberal statist. This causes them untold consternation.

    White Liberals are confounded - how could people have possibly coped with this societal breakdown without someone of greater intelligence and intellect guiding and directing their every decision?

    Answer: Very well, thank you. Now piss off.





    People "made other arrangements" because the "liberal planners" worked hard and long informing the public about the possibilty of "disaster".

    Because the "liberal planners" and the media DID THEIR JOBS of informing the public - "disaster" was averted.

    This "incident" proves that effective communication between the "liberal planners" and the public can prevent disasters from happening.

    FYI - "White (and non-white) Liberals" are pleased at their success.
  • groundcombat

    Posts: 945

    Jul 19, 2011 2:53 AM GMT
    Well I was out of town to San Diego for the weekend (via Amtrak no less) but I suspect it went smoothly because of all the hype and warnings. The project was couched in a way where no one wanted anything to do with it unless they had to. People simply made other arrangements. And the government encouraged and even subsidized alternative plans by offering free fare on the subway.
  • calibro

    Posts: 8888

    Jul 19, 2011 3:31 AM GMT
    perhaps you can enlighten me as to how any of this has anything to do with the free market, specifically when the government contract was going to charge the crew $1,200 a minute they went over... wow, look what happens when the government puts a financial burden on industry. now imagine if the government started taxing polluters and other entities...
  • slimnmuscly

    Posts: 541

    Jul 19, 2011 3:51 AM GMT
    calibro saidperhaps you can enlighten me as to how any of this has anything to do with the free market, specifically when the government contract was going to charge the crew $1,200 a minute they went over... wow, look what happens when the government puts a financial burden on industry. now imagine if the government started taxing polluters and other entities...


    Don't hold your breath waiting for enlightenment from him. He's a textbook illustration of what happens to the reasoning capacity of people who don't outgrow their Ayn Rand phase after high school.
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    Jul 19, 2011 4:07 AM GMT
    slimnmuscly saidHe's a textbook illustration of what happens to the reasoning capacity of people who don't outgrow their Ayn Rand phase after high school.

    We were supposed to have an Ayn Rand adolescent phase?
    I really missed out. That and bringing a scuzzy guy home to scare the parents phase.
  • slimnmuscly

    Posts: 541

    Jul 19, 2011 4:14 AM GMT
    Ermine said
    slimnmuscly saidHe's a textbook illustration of what happens to the reasoning capacity of people who don't outgrow their Ayn Rand phase after high school.

    We were supposed to have an Ayn Rand adolescent phase?
    I really missed out. That and bringing a scuzzy guy home to scare the parents phase.


    Not mandatory by any means, and there's absolutely zero need to make up for lost time.

    Well, maybe with respect to the bringing a scuzzy guy home to scare the parents phase there's a need. I'd have to see the parents.
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    Jul 19, 2011 4:14 AM GMT
    Carmageddon used as an example of the free market. I guess I have not heard everything yet. icon_eek.gif
  • slimnmuscly

    Posts: 541

    Jul 19, 2011 4:43 AM GMT
    Flamedown saidCarmageddon used as an example of the free market. I guess I have not heard everything yet. icon_eek.gif


    No kidding. It was a government infrastructure project that triggered the event or lack thereof. I would think if a right-winger was going to make a Carmageddon-related point it would be like the one in the video disputing the efficacy of the project, not praising it as an example of the free market in action.
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    Jul 19, 2011 5:07 AM GMT
    Sometimes these over-hyped media predictions of doom have the affect of creating the optimal desired result. Same thing happened here in Vancouver for the Olympic Games. For months, we were warned that there would be pure chaos on the streets, that the streets would be bumper to bumper, and general mayhem. Well, I never saw better traffic conditions in this city in my life. Yes, public transit was busy and parking was nearly impossible mostly because of special Olympic lanes and there certainly wasn't a shortage of people attending the sports events and free parties, but you could zip around town in your car in no time. Why? Because the nightmare was overblown and thus averted. Because people were informed and thus made different decisions. The same thing happened in Sydney, Australia in 2000.
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    Jul 19, 2011 5:20 AM GMT
    Being from LA and knowing the 405 was going to be closed for a weekend, believe you me, an Angeleno would not be on the roads unless one had to. We don't need everyone to tell us, really. One sig-alert causes backup for miles -- Angelenos can imagine what a freeway closure would be like if they were to get on the roads. We know our roads.

    It's not unlike the time when a portion of the 10 Freeway collapsed after the Northridge earthquake and everyone had to find alternate routes to get to/fro the Westside. And that restoration was for 6-months (if not amazingly less, as I recall)!
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Jul 19, 2011 5:29 AM GMT
    slimnmuscly said
    calibro saidperhaps you can enlighten me as to how any of this has anything to do with the free market, specifically when the government contract was going to charge the crew $1,200 a minute they went over... wow, look what happens when the government puts a financial burden on industry. now imagine if the government started taxing polluters and other entities...


    Don't hold your breath waiting for enlightenment from him. He's a textbook illustration of what happens to the reasoning capacity of people who don't outgrow their Ayn Rand phase after high school.



    To make the point for him, I guess it proves that when the public is informed and have an incentive to act , they usually make the right decision.

    Instead of a predicted disaster based on the notion of a mass of car lemmings that need to be managed, most stayed away and did other things.

    A similar effect happened post 911 in NYC, when the L.I.E was closed , Long Island didnt wither away.

    There is alot of buz locally in L.A. about making carmageddon a yearly local holiday.

    Everyone I know seemed to appreciate the local " time out" .

    slimnmuscly
    wow, look what happens when the government puts a financial burden on industry. now imagine if the government started taxing polluters and other entities...


    Did they finish it because of fear of a tax? or penalty?
    No they finished it early with a $300000 bonus.
    I dont get the financial burden part.
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    Jul 19, 2011 12:33 PM GMT
    musclmed said
    Did they finish it because of fear of a tax? or penalty?
    No they finished it early with a $300000 bonus.
    I dont get the financial burden part.


    They finished early because they had a financial incentive to do so and a financial penalty if they did not. Both set by the government. It puts the lie to the idea that the government cannot intervene positively in the private sector.
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Jul 19, 2011 2:20 PM GMT
    Christian73 said
    musclmed said
    Did they finish it because of fear of a tax? or penalty?
    No they finished it early with a $300000 bonus.
    I dont get the financial burden part.


    They finished early because they had a financial incentive to do so and a financial penalty if they did not. Both set by the government. It puts the lie to the idea that the government cannot intervene positively in the private sector.



    Would seem to work for teachers? too bad the teachers unions appose incentives for productive and effective teachers. And penalties for ineffective teachers.


    Call it what you like its a common practice in the private sector.

  • calibro

    Posts: 8888

    Jul 19, 2011 3:00 PM GMT
    musclmed said
    Christian73 said
    musclmed said
    Did they finish it because of fear of a tax? or penalty?
    No they finished it early with a $300000 bonus.
    I dont get the financial burden part.


    They finished early because they had a financial incentive to do so and a financial penalty if they did not. Both set by the government. It puts the lie to the idea that the government cannot intervene positively in the private sector.



    Would seem to work for teachers? too bad the teachers unions appose incentives for productive and effective teachers. And penalties for ineffective teachers.


    Call it what you like its a common practice in the private sector.



    the comparison between teaching a child to learn and removing concrete is so mismatched that it's clear you have no background in education.
  • gwuinsf

    Posts: 525

    Jul 19, 2011 3:34 PM GMT
    JackNWNJ said

    This whole incident has vindicated the "free market." The media predicted disaster. But people made other arrangements. They left town, went to the beach, the mountains, stayed home, wherever. Some went to work and/or shopping as usual.


    Isn't that the exact opposite of "free market". If it'd truly been "free market" people would have conducted their actions without any other factors in consideration. You're right that a lot of Los Angelenos left town and stayed home. If it'd been truly "free market" as you claim, the exact opposite would have happened... people would have gone about their normal weekend affairs without the 405 closure taken into any consideration.

    JackNWNJ said
    And all this happened without the meddling of social and political busybodies. They didn't have to direct and plan each person's weekend for them.


    You don't live in LA so you clearly don't know. There were signs everywhere. There were signs in Burbank notifying people of the 405 closure and to expect delays. That's 10 miles away from the 405. It was in the LA Times, the local news and blogs almost daily. You can't say that there was no meddling or attempts to direct people's actions. I live here and there was plenty of action by the media and government.

    JackNWNJ said
    This is how the the larger society/economy works when white Liberal planners keep their noses out of it. Billions of decisions are made each day by citizens, and these decisions are out of the reach of the white Liberal statist. This causes them untold consternation.

    White Liberals are confounded - how could people have possibly coped with this societal breakdown without someone of greater intelligence and intellect guiding and directing their every decision?

    Answer: Very well, thank you. Now piss off.


    Huh?
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Jul 21, 2011 12:20 AM GMT
    calibro said
    musclmed said
    Christian73 said
    musclmed said
    Did they finish it because of fear of a tax? or penalty?
    No they finished it early with a $300000 bonus.
    I dont get the financial burden part.


    They finished early because they had a financial incentive to do so and a financial penalty if they did not. Both set by the government. It puts the lie to the idea that the government cannot intervene positively in the private sector.



    Would seem to work for teachers? too bad the teachers unions appose incentives for productive and effective teachers. And penalties for ineffective teachers.


    Call it what you like its a common practice in the private sector.



    the comparison between teaching a child to learn and removing concrete is so mismatched that it's clear you have no background in education.


    I did not compare them. Maybe you imagined it in your mind.

    "They finished early because they had a financial incentive to do so and a financial penalty if they did not. Both set by the government. It puts the lie to the idea that the government cannot intervene positively in the private sector. "

    Seems that incentives would work in education as well, if we go along with the supposition that this is "Goverment intervention at its best"

    If you feel they would not help let us know why.


    Btw there are probably a 1000 or so people with "backgrounds in education " at the Dept of Education in Washington D.C. And absolutely no improvement in education has come along since they came along.
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    Jul 21, 2011 12:27 AM GMT
    Ermine said
    slimnmuscly saidHe's a textbook illustration of what happens to the reasoning capacity of people who don't outgrow their Ayn Rand phase after high school.

    We were supposed to have an Ayn Rand adolescent phase?
    I really missed out. That and bringing a scuzzy guy home to scare the parents phase.


    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.“
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 21, 2011 12:30 AM GMT
    musclmed said
    calibro said
    musclmed said
    Christian73 said
    musclmed said
    Did they finish it because of fear of a tax? or penalty?
    No they finished it early with a $300000 bonus.
    I dont get the financial burden part.


    They finished early because they had a financial incentive to do so and a financial penalty if they did not. Both set by the government. It puts the lie to the idea that the government cannot intervene positively in the private sector.



    Would seem to work for teachers? too bad the teachers unions appose incentives for productive and effective teachers. And penalties for ineffective teachers.


    Call it what you like its a common practice in the private sector.



    the comparison between teaching a child to learn and removing concrete is so mismatched that it's clear you have no background in education.


    I did not compare them. Maybe you imagined it in your mind.

    "They finished early because they had a financial incentive to do so and a financial penalty if they did not. Both set by the government. It puts the lie to the idea that the government cannot intervene positively in the private sector. "

    Seems that incentives would work in education as well, if we go along with the supposition that this is "Goverment intervention at its best"

    If you feel they would not help let us know why.


    Btw there are probably a 1000 or so people with "backgrounds in education " at the Dept of Education in Washington D.C. And absolutely no improvement in education has come along since they came along.


    Teachers can only do so much. Parents and students need to step up there game to be honest. Sadly you can't say that because any criticism of the American people is "unpatriotic"