Gay Christians: give me some feedback

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    Aug 13, 2011 11:44 PM GMT
    I have done some research into the Bible and realize that the traditional view of homosexuality is not biblical. The Bible doesn't say what everyone thinks it says.

    So, at some point, I feel led to start a Bible Study for Gay Christians to empower them and teach them that God does indeed love EVERY person ever born, gay/straight, male/female, all races, all religions, all ethnicities.

    If you attended such a Bible Study, what would you want to get from it?

    If you are not a Christian, then you may not gain as much from it, although I would certainly open it to all. God doesn't discriminate. Neither will I.
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    Aug 14, 2011 12:45 AM GMT
    Alpha_Muscle saidIf you attended such a Bible Study, what would you want to get from it?


    Alpha, starting a Bible study would be a great idea. Thank you for taking the initiative in this. That's so encouraging!

    When I did attend a group when I was trying to reconcile my faith and sexuality, I'd say the most important aspect was not intellectually "knowing" that God loved me, as I knew that, but practically experiencing His abundant grace as all sufficient in Jesus Christ. Hearing stories from other Christians helped me understand that I was not alone. Having a safe place to share and to pray was enriching and healing. Ultimately, together, engaging the Word to really "ground ourselves" in the person of Jesus -- His life, death and resurrection -- was and is the foundation of life itself, and the bedrock upon which we find peace and power. Keeping each other accountable in that to live with integrity and be true to our word and our calling as Christians in contrast to identifying first as "being gay" vs. "being a Christ-follower who happens, in small part, to be gay".

    There's more to all that, but that's just a nutshell... I'm sure where you begin or which direction you take ultimately is determined by who is in the group and where they are spiritually and emotionally.

    Feel free to message privately. In the meantime, I'm praying for you.
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    Aug 14, 2011 1:10 AM GMT
    The Bible contains some great moral stories. That's all.

    As time passes interpretations change of literature; Faith does not and is ubiquitous.

    A Bible or any literature study is a great idea. I'm still waiting for BibleIII to be published. I think J.K. Rowling would make a good author for that.

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    Aug 14, 2011 1:12 AM GMT
    Alpha_Muscle saidI have done some research into the Bible and realize that the traditional view of homosexuality is not biblical. The Bible doesn't say what everyone thinks it says.


    WHAT?!?!?! Um duh, only the crazy "christains" believe that the Bible says what they are told it says.
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    Aug 14, 2011 1:13 AM GMT
    I believe in God - but not in most of His "followers".

    I'll be honest and up front and say that I am still trying to reconcile my faith and "what I have been taught" (i.e. decades of "hate the sin, love the sinner" tinged with what often is no small amount of hypocrisy and judgment from mainstream and certainl so from "evangelical" Christians) with what I see with my eyes, and how I see God dealing with people in the modern age.

    Basically, I see things as a matter of "progressive revelation", where God slowly reveals himself in a manner commensurate with our maturity as a combined race.

    Horrific evils and injustices existed in the dawn of our existence (whether you wish to attribute this to our Adamic ancestors in the "literal" sense of Original Sin, or Pro-simian A. killing Pro-simian B. for its food or female or whatever...)

    I am beginning to see the Bible as mostly allegory in which God reveals Himself, in a series of "Laws" or "Covenants":

    {Edit long TL;DR bit}

    Now amidst all the smiting and begetting and general nasty barbarity of people, especially that of the House of Israel, and committed under the direct command of (the agents of) YWHW, this is diffused to us as the product of a primitive society which was as yet immature and unable to handle reason and understand how love and mercy temper judgment.

    Time rolls on, and humanity matures: we learn of Christ's forgiveness, we learn of our equality before Him as sinners regardless of our apparent station whether as servant, slave, or lord and master or man or woman; and we eventually displace such primitive ideas as slavery and chattelry of women and non-citizens... and finally, the great issue of our day, sexuality.

    The Law was never to be our master, but rather a teacher to hold us by the hand until a time when conscience and maturity as a combined race guide us to do the right thing, and that perhaps only through the regeneration of, and leadership by, the Holy Spirit.

    Sorry if I went a little TL;DR here... just some thoughts on a subject that has bound my thinking up for quite a while.
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    Aug 14, 2011 1:16 AM GMT
    deltalimen saidThe Bible contains some great moral stories. That's all.

    As time passes interpretations change of literature; Faith does not and is ubiquitous.

    A Bible or any literature study is a great idea. I'm still waiting for BibleIII to be published. I think J.K. Rowling would make a good author for that.



    This type of thinking is understandable given the HORRIBLE treatment that the "church" has inflicted on humanity over the years through misinterpretation of the Bible. Underlying your post is a great deal of anger... and it is NOT misplaced... the Bible has been a weapon for evil for too many years.

    But I assure you that to Christians, it is much more than just literature. As you stated, faith is ubiquitous and it illuminates and enriches our faith. I presume that if I had this study in your area, you would not attend. I would hope you would because I believe that you would hear personal stories of triumph and inspiration that transcend a mere book.

    It isn't my job to convince anyone of anything. Everyone has their beliefs. But I would want to tell my class what it means to me on a personal level.... and it means so much more than a "moral story". I hope one day that you can consider that as a possible alternative to your current view.
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    Aug 14, 2011 1:22 AM GMT
    alphatrigger saidI believe in God - but not in most of His "followers".

    I'll be honest and up front and say that I am still trying to reconcile my faith and "what I have been taught" (i.e. decades of "hate the sin, love the sinner" tinged with what often is no small amount of hypocrisy and judgment from mainstream and certainl so from "evangelical" Christians) with what I see with my eyes, and how I see God dealing with people in the modern age.

    Basically, I see things as a matter of "progressive revelation", where God slowly reveals himself in a manner commensurate with our maturity as a combined race.

    Horrific evils and injustices existed in the dawn of our existence (whether you wish to attribute this to our Adamic ancestors in the "literal" sense of Original Sin, or Pro-simian A. killing Pro-simian B. for its food or female or whatever...)

    I am beginning to see the Bible as mostly allegory in which God reveals Himself, in a series of "Laws" or "Covenants":

    {Edit long TL;DR bit}

    Now amidst all the smiting and begetting and general nasty barbarity of people, especially that of the House of Israel, and committed under the direct command of (the agents of) YWHW, this is diffused to us as the product of a primitive society which was as yet immature and unable to handle reason and understand how love and mercy temper judgment.

    Time rolls on, and humanity matures: we learn of Christ's forgiveness, we learn of our equality before Him as sinners regardless of our apparent station whether as servant, slave, or lord and master or man or woman; and we eventually displace such primitive ideas as slavery and chattelry of women and non-citizens... and finally, the great issue of our day, sexuality.

    The Law was never to be our master, but rather a teacher to hold us by the hand until a time when conscience and maturity as a combined race guide us to do the right thing, and that perhaps only through the regeneration of, and leadership by, the Holy Spirit.

    Sorry if I went a little TL;DR here... just some thoughts on a subject that has bound my thinking up for quite a while.


    That is very interesting and thoughtful. I knew going into this that it would be a challenging endeavor because the gay community is often so injured by the actions of so-called "Christians".

    So based upon what you just shared, what would you want to see in a Bible Study? I dont think the study should be limited to gay issues, although they are important. First of all, they are important because despite what Simon78928 said, there are rational Christians who believe the Bible and think that homosexuality is an "abomination". (Of course, that wasn't the literal translation and they never stopped to consider what an "abomination" actually is. This is the most misunderstood two verses in the Bible when it comes to homosexuality. )

    If nothing else, I would like to arm Gay Christians with the truth so that they can (1) go honestly to God and worship without shame or fear and (2) can stand up to straight Christians and educate them.
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    Aug 14, 2011 1:25 AM GMT
    If I wanted to be religiously active, I would want to be a Christian, not a gay Christian. I think that these gay groups focus too much on gay....gay this, gay that...It's time to move on from that.. Why not focus only on the topic at hand? Be a Christian (or whatever other group) with straight people, and people of different races, etc. Save being gay for the bedroom. Do of course choose a religious orginziation that is LGBT friendly. There are several. It's all about integration and being part of the community.

    For those of you who hate Christians, or say awful things about them, you need to rethink that. If you want tolerance, you need to tolerate others. Also, don't stereotype. Not every Christian, Muslim etc is a radical or hateful person. You don't like ugly stereotypes either. It's ok to disgagree, but hate speech makes you no better than those you criticize.
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    Aug 14, 2011 1:28 AM GMT
    alpha muscle said:

    God does indeed love EVERY person ever born, gay/straight, male/female, all races, all religions, all ethnicities.


    You've nailed it alpha -- this is what the very essence of God's love is and thank you for stating so. I commend you for considering the Bible study. I could participate a little if it wasn't too time consuming. Right now, I'm already participating in another online bible study and will probably be doing something at my church on Sunday mornings as well.

    This could help many who are confused and don't know much about Christianity. I think that fundamentalism is what scares most people. Focusing on Christ's and God's love is the answer. May God help you with your decision.

    Peace
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    Aug 14, 2011 1:29 AM GMT
    so lemme get this straight.

    god loves faggots, but the real question remains: does he love jews?
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    Aug 14, 2011 1:31 AM GMT
    I would totally attend a Bible study. I absolutely have no problem with Christians, the Bible, etc. . .

    I have read the Bible a couple of times, but I've also read other religious literature. Essentially, they are all the same; a handbook for the human morale and spirit.

    I am not discounting the Bible as a powerful and auxiliary tool to one's faith. After all it is a popular collection of stories that guide human beings to morals.

    I believe faith in something will always be present IE) the morpheme god, the idea of God, sex, money, drugs, relationships, etc...

    No one is to say, "My God's dick is bigger than your God's dick." -This is where religion is wrong
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    Aug 14, 2011 1:33 AM GMT
    pchoc1 saidIf I wanted to be religiously active, I would want to be a Christian, not a gay Christian. I think that these gay groups focus too much on gay....gay this, gay that...It's time to move on from that.. Why not focus only on the topic at hand? Be a Christian (or whatever other group) with straight people, and people of different races, etc. Save being gay for the bedroom. Do of course choose a religious orginziation that is LGBT friendly. There are several. It's all about integration and being part of the community.

    For those of you who hate Christians, or say awful things about them, you need to rethink that. If you want tolerance, you need to tolerate others. Also, don't stereotype. Not every Christian, Muslim etc is a radical or hateful person. You don't like ugly stereotypes either. It's ok to disgagree, but hate speech makes you no better than those you criticize.


    Oh, you have no idea how much I wish that your desire could be true!! Yes, I am a Christian and, to be blunt, God cares much more about my heart and my spirit than he does my penis! God doesn't care that I am gay.

    But unfortunately we live in the World, pchoc. And this world uses Christianity as a weapon to justify hatred and intolerance. To those of us who diligently seek God, we are DAILY reminded that we are gay and Christian. We are not accepted by the majority of voices in the straight christian community (especially in the bible belt) and as you pointed out, our views are not widely accepted in the gay community. Reconciling those two halves is an enormous undertaking.

    My goal isn't to seperate us from straight Christians. In fact, I have gotten a lot of encouragement at my church about straight members who want to learn more and discover the truth. But goal is to talk about these issues from a Biblical perspective.

    Persecution of the gay community is based upon two factors understood culturally:

    1. Homosexuality is a choice
    2. God hates homosexuality more than any other sin

    Until we challenge those strongly held beliefs to the point that society acknowledges them as the lies they are, we will always be suffering.

    Remember, at one time the law of the United States was that blacks were 3/5 human. (The Dred Scott decision of the Missouri Supreme Court. ) That is now laughably archaic and ignorant. We will get there, too. But we must challenge those two beliefs.
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    Aug 14, 2011 1:35 AM GMT
    Import saidso lemme get this straight.

    god loves faggots, but the real question remains: does he love jews?


    Very, very much... in fact they have special dispensation at the end.

    Want me to blow your mind??

    Biblically... God loves Muslims, too!

    I have never looked in the eyes of a human being that wasn't loved by God. I never will.
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    Aug 14, 2011 1:40 AM GMT
    Alpha_Muscle said
    Import saidso lemme get this straight.

    god loves faggots, but the real question remains: does he love jews?


    Very, very much... in fact they have special dispensation at the end.

    Want me to blow your mind??

    Biblically... God loves Muslims, too!

    I have never looked in the eyes of a human being that wasn't loved by God. I never will.


    special dispensation?
    really?
    for simply being born a jew?

    what about converts? surely, they take a back seat when rapture presents itself.

    lol, that whole "chosen people" bit is laughable.

    The older I get, the more skeptical and jaded I seem to become.. Is this satan?


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    Aug 14, 2011 1:44 AM GMT

    You could join the Episcopal church or the Church of Christ. They both openly welcome gays and even perform gay weddings. (with the exception of some locations). Lutherans are somewhat gay friendly as well, it depends on the area. The Episcopal church is one of the largest in the world...greater in numbers than the haters. Even the hateful churches have several gay members. When I was a child, my mom used to bring me to Catholic mass in the city near a gay neighborhood. The place was full of gays. It was pretty mellow, there was no bully pulpit...really depends on where you are.
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    Aug 14, 2011 2:51 AM GMT
    MOAR TL;DR goodness follows... but do read if you are interested in this thread. ;)

    Jesus Himself distilled the Law into two basic commandments:

    1) Love God with all your essence (heart, soul, strength, mind, etc. etc.)

    2) Love your neighbour as you love yourself

    Everything else is an elaboration and a further definition of the above two (such as forgiving those who offend you and then repent not once, not seven times, but seventy times seven - literally 490x, but understood to be a figure for unlimited forgiveness even as He has forgiven us our sins if we repent).

    Another thing God concerns Himself with are matters of social justice - God proclaimed Himself a defender of the widow and the fatherless in the Old Testament:

    Deuteronomy 24:17-22 (KJV)
    17 Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:

    18 But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

    19 When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hands.

    20 When thou beatest thine olive tree, thou shalt not go over the boughs again: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

    21 When thou gatherest the grapes of thy vineyard, thou shalt not glean it afterward: it shall be for the stranger, for the fatherless, and for the widow.

    22 And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in the land of Egypt: therefore I command thee to do this thing.



    ... and He continues the theme in the New Testament:


    James 1:27 (KJV)
    Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.



    God doesn't complicate things. We humans do, and often to disastrous effect.

    What is truly an "abomination", (Hebrew: to'ebah תּוֹעֵבָה - offensive, detestable, violation) one that seems to apply across all times, dispensations, and circumstances, is lying.

    Proverbs 12:22
    Lying lips are abomination to the LORD but they that deal truly are his delight


    Not far behind that is the REAL sin of Sodom which was among other things, selfishness and callousness toward the needs of others:

    Ezekiel 16:49-50 (ESV)
    Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it.


    That whole business of eating lobsters and wearing mixed blends of fibres in your clothing along with condemning temple prostitution (the very specific matter of sexual sin that the pagan nations in Canaan were engaged in, which often involved child sexual abuse)... was never intended to be a part of the New Testament economy.

    God spoke very strongly against those practices as He did not want Israel to get caught up in it and to mix it into their worship of YHWH. (Eventually they did, and this among many other factors lead to their eventual chastisement and diaspora as God removed His protecting hand from them for their disobedience to His covenant).

    While cultic temple prostitution persisted well after the fall of the Western Roman Empire, it was no longer a matter to be misunderstood as being a part of the proper worship of YHWH since the temple sacrificial system that once served YHWH on earth was fulfilled in Christ.
  • BeingThePhoen...

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    Aug 14, 2011 3:21 AM GMT
    So, God loves us all, but orders us to stone our disobedient children to death, and says that if we don't believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire.
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    Aug 14, 2011 3:37 AM GMT
    "Empower them." Ugh.
  • TheIStrat

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    Aug 14, 2011 3:42 AM GMT
    I'd want it to erase the first 20 years of me hearing nothing, NOTHING but horrible things about gays. Do that for me, and I'll come back to Christianity.
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    Aug 14, 2011 3:52 AM GMT
    BeingThePhoenix saidSo, God loves us all, but orders us to stone our disobedient children to death, and says that if we don't believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire.



    i dont know about the stoning of children but i do know that God wants " children to obey their parents in the Lord for this is right." and also " So your days shall be long upon the land." i believe what the writers meant was to follow your parents authority because God gave them dominion over you for a period of time and God hates disobedience.

    FOr instance Moses disobeyed God by hitting the rock instead of trusting the Lord and he was not able to go to tthe promise land Canaan.

    As for the fiery Hell for Christians and noon Christians alike Thats the ultimate punishment I feel for whatever sin or I guess non belief unfortunately.
  • BeingThePhoen...

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    Aug 14, 2011 4:38 AM GMT
    Corvin said
    BeingThePhoenix saidSo, God loves us all, but orders us to stone our disobedient children to death, and says that if we don't believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire.



    i dont know about the stoning of children but i do know that God wants " children to obey their parents in the Lord for this is right." and also " So your days shall be long upon the land." i believe what the writers meant was to follow your parents authority because God gave them dominion over you for a period of time and God hates disobedience.

    FOr instance Moses disobeyed God by hitting the rock instead of trusting the Lord and he was not able to go to tthe promise land Canaan.

    As for the fiery Hell for Christians and noon Christians alike Thats the ultimate punishment I feel for whatever sin or I guess non belief unfortunately.

    Sorry... It wasn't stoning. It's been a while since I've read the Bible. This is what I was talking about:

    Matthew 15:4
    For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
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    Aug 14, 2011 4:41 AM GMT
    yupe sill obey your parents so your days shall be long apon the land.
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    Aug 14, 2011 4:43 AM GMT
    TheIStrat saidI'd want it to erase the first 20 years of me hearing nothing, NOTHING but horrible things about gays. Do that for me, and I'll come back to Christianity.


    It comes down mostly to this:

    1. God said X

    2. Some guys who probably wore funny hats and happened to agree upon (Nicene Council, among many others to follow) what was supposed to be in the Bible several hundred to a few thousand years ago said X but without Y and little extra dash of Z

    3. A whole train car lot of other people who defintely wore funny hats said X + (A+B*C-D)/0 (that's divide by zero)

    4. A really huge shit ton of people get killed on account of the folks in steps 2 and 3...

    5. Sell Indulgences and "relics"

    6. $$ PROFIT! $$

    What matters is really letting God speak to your heart and laying aside all the BS humans have added on to it all.

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    Aug 14, 2011 4:50 AM GMT
    And yeah, the stoning was from the old testament as well.

    Again, do understand that times, attitudes, and culture was quite alien and very different from what we know now.

    The sort of disobedience that was worthy of death was not merely sassing or backtalking the 'rents, it was much more serious stuff like truly rebellious, out of control kids -- sons sleeping with their father's wives and concubines, leading insurrections against the civil authorities, disrupting the harvest, raping the neighbour's slaves, etc.

    Of course, disciplining the kids from a young age (spankings, *le gasp*) would prevent a lot of the more serious issues later on.
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    Aug 14, 2011 5:00 AM GMT
    "I would like to arm Gay Christians with the truth so that they can (1) go honestly to God and worship without shame or fear and (2) can stand up to straight Christians and educate them."

    You, sir, are a complete fifth columnist, an utter Vichyist . . .

    . . . for once in your horrible lowbrow life, try to think about the drivel you are espousing . . . what you are saying is that gays need to worship a god who needs to be worshipped by the beings that he himself made and that he himself emitted from his own imagination . . .

    do you not see the weird insularity and egoism and circularity at work there, not to mention the complete lack of volitional agency of the god's projections?

    get off your knees!!!