Let's pretend for a moment that the overall democratic/republican stance on gay rights were reversed. Questions for liberals.

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    Sep 08, 2011 8:52 PM GMT
    It is very easy for liberals to always resort to the convenience of the fact that the democratic party happens to be the party which advocates more blatantly for gay rights issues. At the same time many liberals also happen to agree more fully with democrats on all of the other issues, whether they have to do with economic policy, immigration, the notion of freedom, etc.

    Because economic liberals (fiscal conservatives) find better representation for their policies in GOP candidates sometimes they have to settle for candidates which lean towards appearing more vocally anti-gay marriage (although the degree of HOW anti-gay someone is definitely has to be considered and is evaluated on a personal basis).

    So what if it was all reversed? What if you took both parties with their identical stances overall and the Republican Party happened to be the one more blatantly in favor of gay rights issues and the Democrats had the identical stance that Republicans do in general on gay rights but with everything else the same? Would you vote without hesitation for the Republican candidates based on the sheer idea that “gay rights” issues trumps all, or would you find some way to justify that some of the other issues are also worth evaluating before casting a definitive vote?

    If your answer is the former, then it means that gay marriage and other gay issues trump everything else in your world, if your answer is the latter, then why do you so dishonestly pretend that gay conservatives or libertarians are always being “self-hating” when they may happen to feel more support for a candidate that they believe is far healthier overall for the country based on an evaluation of most of the issues?

    More importantly, why do you ignore this coincidence in the political spectrum? Why must you pretend that religious based socially conservative ideals pushed my many conservatives has ANYTHING whatsoever to do with all of the other issues at play in economic terms?

    Would you be in favor of Paul Ryan's budget plan along with a blatant advocacy for gay marriage in the package? I'd really like to know!
  • roadbikeRob

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    Sep 08, 2011 9:59 PM GMT
    It would be wonderful if it were all reversed. If a fiscally conservative republican was pro- gay equality along with being pro free enterprise, than yes I would vote for him. I feel that you can be progressive and pro business at the same time.
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    Sep 08, 2011 10:18 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob saidIt would be wonderful if it were all reversed. If a fiscally conservative republican was pro- gay equality along with being pro free enterprise, than yes I would vote for him. I feel that you can be progressive and pro business at the same time.


    But so many of the liberals on here have it made. They support both the economic/fiscal views of democrats AND they just happen to be more inclined to be in favor of gay rights.

    Because of the circumstances, they don't seem to realize that it could have just as easily been reversed and they would be the ones in the more likely position to be called "self-haters" unless they were to support the kind of switch I'm talking about.
  • creature

    Posts: 5197

    Sep 09, 2011 1:12 AM GMT
    Yes, we do have it made, don't we? icon_biggrin.gif

    To be honest, I don't have an answer. Even if it's for pretend, the feedback I'm receiving from the Republican party of today makes it that much more difficult to imagine them as staunch supporters of gay rights. Hell, it would have been easier to imagine your hypothetical in the 60s. But the Republicans have changed dramatically, and for the worse. Which leads me to answer your other question...

    I don't pretend that Bible-thumping conservative values has anything to do with economic policies. That is not the message pushed by liberals, but by conservatives themselves. They are the ones who created this neat little package for other conservatives to buy into. I'm not suggesting all conservatives think alike. There are conservatives who are pro-choice. There are conservatives who believe in global warming. There are conservatives who believe the Department of Defense is bloated and that we are being financially engulfed by the military industrial complex.

    However, what is being promoted through most Republican politicians and Fox News is that conservatives ought to share opinions on various topics, like religion, the military, abortion, global warming, etc. Anyone who is seen not holding these opinions is deemed a RINO, not a true conservative, and they are ostracized when they call out "respected" conservatives.

    So don't shift the blame on us for this tie-in of religious values and the economy.
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    Sep 09, 2011 1:20 AM GMT
    Q: What if the sky was red?

    A: It's not.

    Let's focus on real life, not fantasy. Next question.
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    Sep 09, 2011 1:25 AM GMT
    Nope. I don't support Democrats because of gay rights issues. My chief concerns are social and economic justice. While they're not as good as I want, the Republican alternative has basically destroyed our country. Just a short example, why would I support a part that believes in denying civil rights (union organizing) while also believing the corporations while having the same rights as people, have none of the responsibilities?
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    Sep 09, 2011 1:55 AM GMT
    jprichva saidPeople like you never understand. It's not merely about the gay thing.
    I've been a Democrat my whole life because I believe in social justice. Not that the Democrats are always good at that, but the Republicans and libertarians never are.


    A person who held social justice and perhaps "economic equality" (in this case, taken to minimize the ever-widening gulf between the upper and lower classes thru the provision of taxes and social programming to create the most advantageous position for people seeking to become middle class)...

    ...such a person might leave the GOP and the Democratic Party to the right and embrace a party that mirrors the Social Democrats of Germany, or the Working Families Party (a NY State party).

    The modern Democrats are just as greedy and corporatist as the GOP, they just aren't as openly proud of their corporatism.
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    Sep 09, 2011 6:41 AM GMT
    jprichva saidThere's some truth to this, but our party loyalties are formed early in life. I know this will date me terribly, but the first presidential campaign I volunteered to work in was for George McGovern in 1972. I was only 15, but I put in hundreds of hours knocking on doors and handing out flyers. We would have done anything to defeat Nixon. The irony is, of course, we all now think Nixon was a bargain.


    My first presidential campaign I worked for was that of George HW Bush in 1989.

    Heeeeeg. I did it mostly out of teenaged rebellion against my dad, a staunch Truman Democrat.
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    Sep 09, 2011 2:22 PM GMT
    All of the liberals in here have acknowledged that they would support the democratic party because of "social justice" issues even if the democrats held the identical position that Republicans do on gay rights and the overall position that democrats do on gay rights.

    So my question is, why do so many of you liberals constantly accuse us of "voting against our interests" or "self-hating" or being "anti-gay" when you admit you would do the very same thing if everything were reversed?

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    Sep 09, 2011 2:24 PM GMT
    TroyAthlete saidQ: What if the sky was red?

    A: It's not.

    Let's focus on real life, not fantasy. Next question.


    The point is the hypocrisy. There are more than "morality" issues when it comes to politics. You obviously don't get it.
  • CuriousJockAZ

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    Sep 09, 2011 4:06 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie said
    So my question is, why do so many of you liberals constantly accuse us of "voting against our interests" or "self-hating" or being "anti-gay" when you admit you would do the very same thing if everything were reversed?



    The answer is easy --- HYPOCRITES!!!!!! icon_lol.gif
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    Sep 09, 2011 4:20 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie said
    TroyAthlete saidQ: What if the sky was red?

    A: It's not.

    Let's focus on real life, not fantasy. Next question.


    The point is the hypocrisy. There are more than "morality" issues when it comes to politics. You obviously don't get it.


    No, the pont is facts vs. fantasy, which you apparently don't get.

    We could make up a thousand scenarios that don't exist to try and twist ourselves into knots to justify all sorts of behaviors.

    Or we can focus on things that actually exist. Fantasy, speculation, and "what ifs" prove nothing.

    The fact is the Republican party platform is openly hostile towards gay rights. And no made-up if/then science fiction is going to change that. Deal with it.
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    Sep 09, 2011 4:42 PM GMT
    Apparently I'm the only person who's having trouble understanding the question. Maybe I'm too ADD to understand the question, but I just don't get what you're asking. icon_neutral.gif
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    Sep 09, 2011 4:54 PM GMT
    TroyAthlete said
    mocktwinkie said
    TroyAthlete saidQ: What if the sky was red?

    A: It's not.

    Let's focus on real life, not fantasy. Next question.


    The point is the hypocrisy. There are more than "morality" issues when it comes to politics. You obviously don't get it.


    No, the pont is facts vs. fantasy, which you apparently don't get.

    We could make up a thousand scenarios that don't exist to try and twist ourselves into knots to justify all sorts of behaviors.

    Or we can focus on things that actually exist. Fantasy, speculation, and "what ifs" prove nothing.

    The fact is the Republican party platform is openly hostile towards gay rights. And no made-up if/then science fiction is going to change that. Deal with it.


    Wow you are extremely dense. By creating this fictitious scenario I just demonstrated that if democrats held the same anti-gay positions attributed to republicans that the liberal gays on here would STILL vote democrat. So it begs the question, why condemn conservative gays for voting republican if you would do the same thing provided the stance from both parties on gay rights were switched?
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    Sep 09, 2011 5:03 PM GMT
    Scruffypup saidApparently I'm the only person who's having trouble understanding the question. Maybe I'm too ADD to understand the question, but I just don't get what you're asking. icon_neutral.gif


    It's rather simple:

    On gay issues, make republicans identical to democrats and democrats identical to republicans.

    All of the other positions on issues remain the same except gay rights stuff.

    Would you still vote democrat without hesitation over republican?
  • Lincsbear

    Posts: 2605

    Sep 09, 2011 5:05 PM GMT
    If I had the right to vote in US elections (and was a Liberal) and the Republican party was much more sympathetic to equal rights than they now are......No,I still wouldn`t vote for them because of their wider economic/social agenda.If they changed both that might make a difference.The Democrats are far from perfect,but closer to my views.
    I wouldn`t label gay Republicans as 'self 'loathing',either.They just don`t see equal rights as important as financial matters;a better quality of life comes through individual affluence.
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    Sep 09, 2011 5:08 PM GMT
    Lincsbear saidIf I had the right to vote in US elections and the Republican party was much more sympathetic to equal rights than they now are......No,I still wouldn`t vote for them because of their wider economic/social agenda.If they changed both that might make a difference.The Democrats are far from perfect,but closer to my views.
    I wouldn`t label gay Republicans as 'self 'loathing',either.They just don`t see equal rights as important as financial matters;a better quality of life comes through individual affluence.


    It's not that gay republicans don't see equal rights as equally important, it's that they are stuck in a situation where you would be if democrats held the identical position on gay rights that republicans do now. Gay conservatives are forced to choose inconveniently the same way you would have to choose what would be more of a priority if you agreed with democrats on everything but the gay rights issues.
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    Sep 09, 2011 5:12 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie said
    Scruffypup saidApparently I'm the only person who's having trouble understanding the question. Maybe I'm too ADD to understand the question, but I just don't get what you're asking. icon_neutral.gif


    It's rather simple:

    On gay issues, make republicans identical to democrats and democrats identical to republicans.

    All of the other positions on issues remain the same except gay rights stuff.

    Would you still vote democrat without hesitation over republican?



    I think I understand now. If the Republican party were as it was when my father was a kid AND was progressive on gay issues, then yes, I would vote Republican. Today's version of the Republican party? No. The Republican party is a mere shadow of it's former self. So much of the party is run by bat-shit-crazy-teaparty nuts that I don't think I could vote Republican as I feel they're just plain insane as a group. And that's sad, because I am 100% in favor of "small government!"
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    Sep 09, 2011 5:14 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie said
    Lincsbear saidIf I had the right to vote in US elections and the Republican party was much more sympathetic to equal rights than they now are......No,I still wouldn`t vote for them because of their wider economic/social agenda.If they changed both that might make a difference.The Democrats are far from perfect,but closer to my views.
    I wouldn`t label gay Republicans as 'self 'loathing',either.They just don`t see equal rights as important as financial matters;a better quality of life comes through individual affluence.


    It's not that gay republicans don't see equal rights as equally important, it's that they are stuck in a situation where you would be if democrats held the identical position on gay rights that republicans do now. Gay conservatives are forced to choose inconveniently the same way you would have to choose what would be more of a priority if you agreed with democrats on everything but the gay rights issues.



    EXACTLY. Democrats are forced to choose what's morally right, even though it's hurting our wallets. Republicans are choosing their wallets while sweeping their morals under the rug. So you're right....it's the same really. icon_eek.gif
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    Sep 09, 2011 5:19 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie said
    Wow you are extremely dense. By creating this fictitious scenario I just demonstrated that if democrats held the same anti-gay positions attributed to republicans that the liberal gays on here would STILL vote democrat. So it begs the question, why condemn conservative gays for voting republican if you would do the same thing provided the stance from both parties on gay rights were switched?


    You've demonstrated nothing except that you live in la-la land and are not very bright either. Like I said, you can make ANYTHING up to show ANYTHING you want. That's how movies and books and made up things work.

    Out here in the real world, where adults and smart folks live, I guess the reason gay supporters of the Republican Party -- not gay conservatives, which are not necessarily the same thing -- get flak is because the GOP is openly hostile towards equality for gays in reality, real life, and the real world, not in some fantastical made up what if scenario pulled from imaginary land.
  • Lincsbear

    Posts: 2605

    Sep 09, 2011 5:26 PM GMT
    My impression of gay Republicans is that money matters count for more than equal rights (though equal rights are not unimportant to them).
    I think they`re going to have that 'inconvenient choice' for a while yet,given how the Republican party has been colonized by the Christian fundamentalists.And I fear it will get more so with the years.
    But you`re right about compromise.I`d struggle to vote for a Democratic party if they held the views of present day Republicans on equal rights.Equal rights aren`t an absolute deal breaker to me,but they`re well up there.
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    Sep 09, 2011 5:31 PM GMT
    Scruffypup said
    mocktwinkie said
    Scruffypup saidApparently I'm the only person who's having trouble understanding the question. Maybe I'm too ADD to understand the question, but I just don't get what you're asking. icon_neutral.gif


    It's rather simple:

    On gay issues, make republicans identical to democrats and democrats identical to republicans.

    All of the other positions on issues remain the same except gay rights stuff.

    Would you still vote democrat without hesitation over republican?



    I think I understand now. If the Republican party were as it was when my father was a kid AND was progressive on gay issues, then yes, I would vote Republican. Today's version of the Republican party? No. The Republican party is a mere shadow of it's former self. So much of the party is run by bat-shit-crazy-teaparty nuts that I don't think I could vote Republican as I feel they're just plain insane as a group. And that's sad, because I am 100% in favor of "small government!"


    Okay, then you vote democrat because you feel gay rights issues trumps everything else but otherwise you agree with the more freedom limited government stuff. That's interesting!
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    Sep 09, 2011 5:34 PM GMT
    TroyAthlete said
    mocktwinkie said
    Wow you are extremely dense. By creating this fictitious scenario I just demonstrated that if democrats held the same anti-gay positions attributed to republicans that the liberal gays on here would STILL vote democrat. So it begs the question, why condemn conservative gays for voting republican if you would do the same thing provided the stance from both parties on gay rights were switched?


    You've demonstrated nothing except that you live in la-la land and are not very bright either. Like I said, you can make ANYTHING up to show ANYTHING you want. That's how movies and books and made up things work.

    Out here in the real world, where adults and smart folks live, I guess the reason gay supporters of the Republican Party -- not gay conservatives, which are not necessarily the same thing -- get flak is because the GOP is openly hostile towards equality for gays in reality, real life, and the real world, not in some fantastical made up what if scenario pulled from imaginary land.


    Actually you've only shown everyone here that comprehension skills are not your forte. The point here is comparing overall political policies and if liberals would still vote democrat if they held an identical position. (Gay rights wedge issues will likely not exist in the next generation, so talking about la-la land makes you look even more stupid). You can't grasp that there is any such thing as economic or foreign policy or immigration issues, it's all about gay rights! woohoo

    Moving on.
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    Sep 09, 2011 5:38 PM GMT
    theantijock said
    CuriousJockAZ said
    mocktwinkie said
    So my question is, why do so many of you liberals constantly accuse us of "voting against our interests" or "self-hating" or being "anti-gay" when you admit you would do the very same thing if everything were reversed?



    The answer is easy --- HYPOCRITES!!!!!!


    BULLSHIT!!!!!

    jprichva saidPeople like you never understand. It's not merely about the gay thing..

    ding ding ding

    Christian73 saidNope. I don't support Democrats because of gay rights issues. My chief concerns are social and economic justice.

    ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding

    I'm fiscally conservative (I don't buy or buy into stupid stuff and I'm not in debt, I live below my means, etc) and socially liberal.

    I began my political affiliation in neutral, registering in high school as an independent because I understood that I did not know then enough about the system to align myself. It was not until my early/mid 20s that I more fully understand what each was saying and so I registered democrat.

    Nothing the republicans have said since sways my loyalties otherwise. The gay question is not a litmus test. It is symptomatic, it is endemic, it is intrinsic, it is inextricable to a way of thinking.

    The only thing hypocritical here is a republican promoting the gay issue and thinking that alone imbues them with social justice.


    Interesting how I am fiscally conservative and socially liberal but yet we are persuaded in completely different directions.

    So you are fiscally conservative on a personal level but you could care less if we are spent into destruction as a nation. Fascinating.
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    Sep 09, 2011 5:40 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie saidActually you've only shown everyone here that comprehension skills are not your forte. The point here is comparing overall political policies and who would vote for what if the gay wedge issue was not present (it will likely not exist in the next generation, so talking about la-la land makes you look even more stupid). You can't grasp that there is any such thing as economic or foreign policy or immigration issues, it's all about gay rights! woohoo

    Moving on.The point here is comparing overall political policies and who would vote for what if the gay wedge issue was not present.


    And you've shown that you do not reside in the fact-based community.

    Do not project your fantasy world onto me. I live in a world where immigration, ecnomic, and foreign policy, AND gay rights are all issues and people have to DEAL with those issues in REALITY as they are. I'm not the one wishing away reality. Don't make things up. Oops. That's what always you do, haha.

    The fact that gay equality is an issue, no amount of wishful thinking will make it not be present, and to invent scenarios where it isn't present is a colossal waste of energy.

    You can move on all you like: unfortunately for you the facts remain the facts and your fantasies don't exist. *shrug*