Don't ask, Don't tell

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 5:12 PM GMT
    Guys:

    I was in the military, I joined when I was about to graduate. I was in the military for a term. Well while I was in the military I had two tires slashed and at least 1 death threat on me. Right before my death threat, I heard about a guy getting killed for being in the military and being gay. Which was one of many that had happened near me. I was completely shocked when I had seen how easily the military covers things like this up.

    Well my questions is this: What are your thoughts on "don't ask, don't tell." How many people have been, are in, or will be in the military in the future? What are some of your experiences as far as Gay and in the military?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 5:24 PM GMT
    I would not recommend that any gay person serve in the US military. The level of hate and intolerance is just unacceptable. I'm all for social progress, but I'm concerned about the safety of gay men and women under arms. I doubt we'll see much positive movement in our lifetimes.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 5:41 PM GMT
    I briefly dated a guy in the Military from the Sacramento area a few months back and unfortunately the fear of being caught made him pull back. He was/is very well established in the Air Force and said the whole "don't ask, don't tell" policy was bullshit. He said that private witch hunts still do exist. If you're even mentioned as potentially being gay you are watched very closely and once it's on the table it's very hard to shake. He personally made it a point to avoid being associated with any other fellow military he thought could be gay. If we exchanged text messages, emails or even used a chat client to correspond I was told to be very careful. I stupidly assumed DADT covered him but he told me stories where that little game was all just politics on paper and protected no one actually living the secret in the military.

    We probably still would be dating but after a casual encounter out one weekend together with a fellow officer of his ( we ran into him at a restaurant ) he suddenly pulled back. I had to respect his career. That was a part of the package he offered when we first started dating. After that night I watched him yank his profile off myspace and gay.com which he kept on private to avoid being found and if he had one here he probably would have yanked that as well. It was pretty obvious he was freaked he was seen out at a restaurant with just a guy. Scott is a great guy and my heart goes out to him and all the gay military guys who want to serve our great nation but to do so means living a very closeted life.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 5:50 PM GMT
    With the incompetence of our generals and this administration, I wouldnt recommend that any gay serve in the military. Use your gayness to stay out.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 6:53 PM GMT
    I served for 8 years in the Marines. The way things are, it's pretty much depends on the unit you are with or where you are located. I was always fine- other Marines had "proof" of my "straightness". And even though some may have suspected, I was always somewhat protected/left alone because they knew I had access to better lawyers than they had, it wasn't too far fetched for me to call a Senator if anyone messed with me, and most of the time I was the only one in my unit that did my job, which meant they would be royally screwed without me. Some services I know can be more lenient- friends in the Air Force say they are. 60 Minutes just did a report saying that DADT enforcement has become more lenient. I wouldn't advise anyone to join the military (and I was a recruiter myself at one point) if they didn't think they could handle the mental stress of being closeted. That being said, I did hookup with other gay Marines/soldiers, even in Iraq.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 6:56 PM GMT
    Fuck the military. They can't even win a war anyway.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 7:00 PM GMT
    OK I'll bite...

    What was the "proof" you offered, Yaleytoons?

    And how did you find other like-minded guys? Did you switch to "standard" techniques in your civvies? Were there military or Marine specific things you relied on in addition, when in uniform?

    K
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 7:02 PM GMT
    Screw the military. Join the more tolerant Peace Corps instead. They do more good work, without all that icky killing. If you prefer the killing, I cannot help you. If you love your country, there are plenty of other ways to show it.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 7:04 PM GMT
    An officer's wife, going to strip clubs, a Hooter's girl, and ahem, I'll stop there. And I wasn't the only Marine present. And I won't discuss how I found other guys, since the DOD could be reading this site now.....
  • jarhead5536

    Posts: 1348

    May 12, 2008 7:12 PM GMT
    Gays in the military is a far more complex issue than one might think. I was in the Marines for ten years, during the inception of DADT, and it didn't actually help anything, I still ended up getting kicked out because of rumor.

    During my time, most of the rank and file fell into two camps - those that really didn't care, and those that were absolutely bugshit rabid about their hatred of faggots. Not much middle ground, and the folks that didn't care pretty much kept their mouths shut because the haters interpreted a neutral position re: gays as a sign of homosexuality in and of itself.

    The officers I knew had a more nuanced position, but it came down to this: The military needs young, aggressively masculine men, and lots of 'em. These are the kind of guys that are usually the most homophobic and ignorant about gay people and issues. Officers understood that gayness was not in fact a detriment to anything except morale and recruitment of lots of aggressively masculine men. In other words, being gay is actually OK, but it must be SEEN as not OK, in order to attract and retain the kinds of soldiers needed for combat.

    It seems that things have changed a lot recently, but there is a quite defined age component to homophobia in the military. Those under 40 (the overwhelming majority of those in uniform) think DADT is a joke that must stop, and those over 40 (a small few but they are running things), well, you get the picture. This is actually a good sign, because it means that the haters will eventually be gone as their generation goes into retirement, which is mandatory at 65 regardless of rank.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 7:19 PM GMT
    I actually served for 12 years in the Army, but it was before DADT became law. I was a NCO.

    At that time there were quite a few other gay men in the Army, but the UNOFFICIAL policy was DADT.

    Most people at that time who knew did not care. Occasionally you would run into some homophobic asshole, but most guys were ok with it (Hell - most guys I knew didn't believe it when they did find out).

    I was there to do a job, not ogle my buddies. I worked hard, gave 120%, did more than anyone else, and advanced rapidly.

    Actually it wasn't until a couple of years after joining that I finally came to deal with my own sexuality while I was stationed in Germany. A senior NCO knew all about me long before I did. icon_eek.gificon_lol.gif

    But the unofficial policy was to keep you 'indiscretions' one hundred miles from the post. icon_lol.gif

    We did (figuratively at least) and had no problems.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 7:20 PM GMT
    The 60 minutes clip that Yaleytoons posted is quite interesting.

    I'll also say that the featured gay guy in the clip is quite hot -- that should get folks interested ;)

    The poor guy defending DADT needs to shave that cheesy mustache. If they let gays in the military, fashion mistakes like this could be eliminated, saving countless lives.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 7:24 PM GMT
    I have never been in the military.

    I have disliked the B.S. implications of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" since its inception, but came to see it as a necessary first step in allowing gay men and women to serve in the military along with everyone else.

    That said, I think it has long ago outlived its usefulness. Unfortunately, the acceptance of gay people as valid human beings is unevenly spread through the U.S. It will probably be several years yet before gay people are allowed to serve on the same terms (i.e., without having to hide who they are) as their hetero brethren, but I hope not.

    Charlie
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 7:50 PM GMT
    XRuggerATX saidScrew the military. Join the more tolerant Peace Corps instead. They do more good work, without all that icky killing. If you prefer the killing, I cannot help you. If you love your country, there are plenty of other ways to show it.


    While I agree with this in some sense, being in the Peace Corps has its own problems. While the Peace Corps itself maintains a nondiscrimination policy and you can be open with other PC staff, it's almost universally true that the countries that volunteers get placed in are extremely intolerant of gays. Gay PC volunteers have to be just about as closeted as our counterparts in the military because of the cultures in the countries we serve in. But at least we do have an outlet in our other volunteers that those in the military don't have.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 7:51 PM GMT
    Interesting clip. I wonder if that guys is from Kileen, the local base here in central TX. His boyfriend had a shirt from our gay bar, Rain.

    I have a couple friends in the military. Both are very serious about their military career. Both, I could not imagine hiding their sexuality fully. One is going to Iraq next month. Its been a rough ride, but both these guys are very serious about their job. I think it would crush them to be discharged. They obviously are able to find some comfort int their situation. I assume to each their own. I would not be able to live the military life separate from my real life. But there are those out there that can.

    DADT is such a lame law. They need to lift the ban completely and work on creating a safe military situation for homosexuals serving their country, rather than pouring all this money into investigations to discharge valuable members of a faltering military.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 8:12 PM GMT
    There is no problem with being gay in the military, unless the military finds out. So keep it a guarded secret and you won't have any problems. It's always been like that, even before DADT.

    I have heard rumors of an "accident" where a "queer" was severely injured. It happened in one of the Infantry Battalions, a guy's leg was crushed off from being run over by an Armored Personel Carrier in the motor stable.

    On one occasion I overheard three NCOs, drunk NCOs, at the club. One ordered a Daiquari. The other two said that a Daiquari is a "Fag Drink". The guy ordered it anyway. All three were straight as far as I could tell. The guy who ordered the Daiquari got the snot beat out of him. I knew all three of them, they were tank mechanics in my Troop.

    Then there's the sad case of Barry Winchell, he was beaten to death in his bunk by another soldier at Fort Campbell. The Army prosecuted his killer.

    With that said, the Army was a great career and I hated to go. Being silently gay had it's little advantages, like scoring higher on the APFT than a lot of straight guys, scoring higher on gunnery and marksmanship than most straight guys and the satisfaction that came with it. One year I scored in the top five for the whole Army on the Skill Qualification Test for an E-5 19E20 (Tank Crewman). That's a lot of straight guys. I just couldn't tell anyone. It was still a privilege to serve.








  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 8:12 PM GMT
    How did this happen? It posted twice and wouldn't delete.








  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 8:13 PM GMT
    "There is no problem with being gay in the military"

    What about the embarrassment of being part of an organization with such a failure rate?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 8:25 PM GMT
    What are you crabbin about McGay? You're safe and secure.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 8:25 PM GMT
    DADT is a flawed policy being used to placate the fear and misunderstanding associated with the concept of homosexuals serving in the military.

    The question we (society) should have addressed was: in the process to prepare for and fight battles (hyper masculine) how can a homosexual (perceived as lacking masculinity) soldier be an effective one? Or from the ladies side: can we accept a woman possessing the skills and physical strength we associate with the hyper masculine male soldier? Can years of evolutionary behavior be undone to the point that we (men) are not threatened by a female soldier? i.e. one who may be able to defeat us in battle.

    Specific examples of heroism and acts of bravery by gay soldiers in a campaign to educate all persons (those serving in the armed forces and the general public) combined with a strict policy against soldier-on-soldier violence would have been a smarter route, but far more complicated to implement and WAY more expensive than DADT.

    This policy hit the social snooze button on America's ringing discomfort with our collective sexuality and all related subjects - nudity, gender roles, stereotypes, icons of strength and aggression, etc. When DADT was implemented, we institutionalized the most anti-gay (least offensive-sounding) policy in history: pick up a weapon, but don't share who you are with others. War demands the strongest of bonds be formed. When we seek to control or restrict how bonded our soldiers are, we put them at greater risk. Not knowing, caring for, or respecting your fellow soldier is a greater risk than your enemy's gun.

    I get sick when I hear of soldier-on-soldier violence. You don't often hear about it... not because the military fears you'll learn about a beaten or dead homosexual soldier, but because it illustrates just how little control we have over someone we've taught to hunt and kill in the name of our Country.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 8:27 PM GMT
    I'm safe and secure, but, John, it's not because the military is doing anything, despite your belief in the power of the kool aid you drink. That shit for brains outfit can't find one guy, and they can't win any of the wars they're engaged in.

    And since I never signed up, I'm not embarrassed.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 8:34 PM GMT
    Well personally I think everyone in America should do 2 years in the service, it would for sure help with the fat problem America has. I'm not saying long term service is for everyone cause obviously it isn't.
    Secondly I don't think anyone can speak about the military unless they have personally been in it. Makes no sense at all to me. Because honestly how can you talk about something you personally have no experience in. You don't go to your neighbor to treat your family when they are sick, so why would you ask someone whose never been in any military service about advice.
    I served in the Army for 3 years ended up going to Iraq for a year. Honestly I loved being in the Army it was fun, though tons of idiots are in charge. But i'd say if you're gay your best bet would be to go into the Medical Corp of any service. It takes you to your limits and even shows that limits can be surpassed.
    Homophobia is everywhere guys, but today you'd be surprised alot of units are becoming more tolerant of gays.
    The "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy is gay but really you join the military to work not cruise. So you shouldn't be flaunting yourself in the first place. Heterosexual couples aren't allowed/ or suppose to hug or kiss while in uniform it's against regulation.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 8:36 PM GMT
    "Secondly I don't think anyone can speak about the military unless they have personally been in it. "

    Ridiculous! That's like saying you should critize art or music unless you're an artist or musician. Nobody should criticize politicians unless they've been in politics. Utter nonsense.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 8:49 PM GMT
    McGay said"Secondly I don't think anyone can speak about the military unless they have personally been in it. "

    Ridiculous! That's like saying you should critize art or music unless you're an artist or musician. Nobody should criticize politicians unless they've been in politics. Utter nonsense.


    It's not utter nonsense how can you talk about something you don't fully understand, or been in. Because all you know is what people have told you. There is no way you're gonna tell me people don't overexaggerate in any way, shape, or form. Because if you do i'd have to think that maybe you've been in a cave for most your life.
    And i do think you shouldn't critize any Art unless you can do it yourself. Cause that's like making prejudgements on someone you've never met before.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    May 12, 2008 8:49 PM GMT
    I bet the Army has enough gay and lesbian troops for a whole division. There's an idea, the Rainbow Division.
    One Airborne Brigade, one Armor Brigade, One Light Infantry Brigade, and accompanying Divarty, Aviation, and support units and all gay or lesbian.

    Can you imagine the Taliban losing a firefight to a Company of Lesbian airborne Infantry?