What is it with this needless Masc/Fem Crap?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 11, 2007 8:30 PM GMT
    Im sorry, I have to rant a bit, I'm so tired of all this masc and fem talk in profiles and forums. It isn't about a man wanting 'a man'. it's about someone who's so kept up about their sexual identity they have to oppress and belittle the other people who either don't care what others have to say or unable to hide it. I for one am in between, I have both sides. Having facial hair, wearing a baseball cap, drinking a beer or playing sports doesn't make you a man. It's about preferences, I know drag queens who can drink a 40 faster than any guy i've seen. Get over the stereotypes, get over your egos and start respecting everyone. We all deserve it, obviously gay or not...thats all.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 11, 2007 10:47 PM GMT
    I agree with you completely. Unfortunately, its'a constant issue amongst "our people".

    It just doesn't make sense. How can a gay person hate on another gay person just because they act differently? It's gay homophobia.
  • mcwclewis

    Posts: 1701

    Jul 12, 2007 1:31 AM GMT
    I love you.... you're right.



    You know just last night some girl freaked out on me and told me I was an asshole for "pretending to be gay." Apparently, her friends roommate is gay and since I dont act anything like him... I must be straight... What the hell?

    Ive heard of closet cases.... is there such thing as an in the closet straight guy??? I just dont understand.

    Stereotypes piss me off.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 12, 2007 1:34 AM GMT
    Hi 5 to you all! For once, I can't think of anything to add.... be who you are and love it, people!
  • Lincsbear

    Posts: 2605

    Jul 12, 2007 1:44 AM GMT
    It seems like some masculine gay guys can`t handle the girly types.Which says more about the former than the latter!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 12, 2007 5:04 AM GMT
    Im glad im not alone on this...thanks guys
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 12, 2007 2:49 PM GMT
    I think all of you guys have excellent points and I agree with them, but im going to play devil's advocate here and say that it comes down to prefrences and ideas. Since we are not all the same, and our idea of what we are attracked changes from each individual, it makes sence that some people are attracked to what they would call masculine and be turned off to what they see as feminine. That the definition of these "identities" changes with each individual, that is clear, and that we do not all have the same definition should also be clear, thus we should not just create a blanket stereotype that would give a definition to these "identities". I have met guys who tell me im fem because I like the arts, theater, and I am a writer. In the same breath they tell me I am so masculine because I have a beard, hairy chest, work with tools and follow sports. It comes down as you guys say to be happy with who you are and pass those who are stuck in their own little worlds and can not stop to appreciate some one for who they are as an individual, with all his/her characteristics.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 12, 2007 2:54 PM GMT
    Nice posting. I agree with your points.

    I think the ultimate issue is self esteem (and not to inflame people, but it's not all some universal result of being "oppressed"). Some people just can't get over their own insecurities. They either pretend to be things they're not, or they go the other extreme and hyper-compensate.

    Confident people don't really care what others think of them. They are happy enough with who they are and what they have done with themselves to know that the only thing that really matters is the ability to look themselves squarely in the eye.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 12, 2007 4:03 PM GMT

    You're right, es2577. Everyone does have a preference, I don't have a problem with that.

    What I do have a problem with, is when some of our gay brothers say they hate fems and sissy boys. They judge them based on what's on the outside, instead of getting to know people on the inside. You could be missing out on a great friendship just because you don't like the way they speak, walk, look, etc.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 12, 2007 9:47 PM GMT
    A good masculine/ fem balance is ideal and natural... Society has created these false plastic 'identitys' to control people into buying a false sense of self worth -so they can be contolled by material matter -

    Think Barbie and Ken. Yuk !
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 13, 2007 8:09 PM GMT
    I also totally agree, it gets annoying hearing this all the time. In fact many times people who get offended by things like this are not feminine at all.

    I agree this comes down to people's own insecurities. Many times the very manly men (that don't accept feminine men) infact were very feminine when they were kids and were most likely teased and taught that wasn't right. They would not accept that part of themselves, therefore wouldn't accept others that showed those traits as they grew older.

    Remember many of the things that bother us the most, are things that we dislike about ourselves or have issues resolving ourselves so we take it out on others.

    This is a very immature way of dealing with life. Many times it shows by the type of lifestyle that is lived by these individuals.

    I myself was one of those guys a few years ago that I couldn't stand feminine guys, infact many actually made me disgusted. Really all it was my own issues. This has been resolved and I can benefit my own life, by learning and growing each day.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 14, 2007 2:10 PM GMT
    Being 100 years old, I have to say this seems to be much more of an issue now than it was two decades ago. Maybe it's because "less obvious" guys tended to stay more closeted. I just don't remember the masculinity quotient being such a preoccupation.

    At least not in such a serious way. The so-called "clone look" that developed in SF in the '70s and found expression among the Village People was an appropriation of hypermasculine style for effect. Most people I knew regarded it as ironic -- male drag -- although I know plenty of people who dispute that. They can't imagine that an ironic style could also be sexy. I dunno.

    Of course, the issue here really is gender as much as sexual orientation. The uninlateral feminization of gay men is a relatively recent phenomenon and due mainly to psychology's insistence that people be split into sexual species -- gay and straight. But to go into how gender and sexual orientation intersect would require thinking about my dissertation and I'd rather be set on fire.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 14, 2007 6:32 PM GMT
    Obscenewish, the difference between now and decades ago has got to be as you said first: "less obvious" guys (i.e. the type of guys that are now hung up on "masculinity") would have been more closeted. Other than occasionally having gay sex discreetly they would not have participated in communication or socialization within the gay community.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 14, 2007 10:56 PM GMT
    Perhaps, Mtndude, but I'm not entirely certain. For one thing, it isn't just stereotypically masculine men who are hung up on "masculinity." A lot of relatively effeminate men have the same preoccupation.

    I have several times hooked up with guys online whose profiles were drenched in testosterone -- to the degree that I was intimidated. Then they opened the door and stood before me in the full glory of their waxed eyebrows and invited me to the quince bedroom with the reproductions of Michelangelo's "David" turned into lamps on both night stands.

    I think it has to do with assimilation. Maybe the wish for assimilation was given extra impetus when the "less obvious" came out of the closet, demanding to be accepted as gay but unwilling to give up the privileges accorded heterosexual males by the culture. As a consequence, maybe, the heterosexual pecking (pecker?) order was duplicated within gay culture, so that even those at the bottom, the more conspicuously queer, yearn for the privilege of the manly men at the top and this, as it does in the dominant culture, gets translated into desire.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 15, 2007 3:46 AM GMT
    rant all you want. and slayer you're sorry for what?

    for thinking all men aren't masculine?
    well they aren't.

    I don't care for men with blonde hair, I dislike perfumes on men.

    It's not disrespectful, oppressive, it's not ego driven.

    what does being a man mean to you? What does masculine mean to you?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 15, 2007 7:06 PM GMT
    Ybwc- You've totally misunderstood my post. I was simply tired of people straining the masc/fem ideology that seems to generate so much judgment. It's okay to not like men with blond hair, but its not like you spend your days shunning, insulting or ignoring them. That Im afraid was not a respectable comparison.

    And I can't answer what I think being a man is. I know we are humans and we can all have the same traits. Why cant a woman be strong or why cant a man cry, I refuse to define anything in types of masc/fem. But if you want me to define man...its a human with a penis...thats about all you'll get from me on that ha.

    No one is insulting your masculinity, please dont take offense or become defensive, no one is attacking anyone, if you have issues with 'fem' guys or even 'masc' ones thats a personal and internal issue that has nothing to do with me.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 15, 2007 7:43 PM GMT
    Hey I tend to agree. May I just add that whenever I've chatted with a dude who has a profile preoccupied with Masc Acting Crap, he fails the telephone portion of my screening process, because he either lisps and or speaks like a girl. It is there that I end things quickly, not because I discriminate against girly guys, just that I don't like delusional girly guys. We should just be ourselves.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 15, 2007 7:50 PM GMT
    Whoa. Forgot to add this...

    I think the Butch wannabes in the gay community are ironic. Why? Ask a str8 guy what his idea of the stereotype gay guy is, he's going to say: big muscles, goatee, tattoos, leather harness, flannels--many things that gay guys regard as masculine. There's a completely irrational disconnect when some of us gay guys try to define masculinity. West Hollywood is possibly the gayest acting zip code on the planet, but only there do you meet so many guys who deny their queeny-ness and who obsess about masculinity. It makes no sense.
  • Drewboo

    Posts: 28

    Jul 15, 2007 8:30 PM GMT
    Its funny how ignorant people are, especially the ones who say things like, "no fems, I only like men, real men" and bullshit like that. Gay men are still stuck in the way of thinking from thirty years ago when scientists thought that masculinity and femininity are separated, opposite ends of a spectrum.
    Today, educated people know that the male and female brains are split into two sides - the right and left. In both genders, one side is the masculine side and the other is the feminine side. Everyone on earth are both feminine and masculine - not one or the other. According to studies, on average, gay men tend to be more feminine than straight men, but are no less masculine. They are two different aspects of every single human being. So for all the macho men who think they are the supreme alpha male, they also have a considerable amount of femininity. Just because some men are more feminine-acting than Mr. Self-titled Alpha-Male, they are generally no less masculine.
    People need to start reading books and informing themselves of shit. Sometimes gay men are the most ignorant of all, especially the ones who hide in the closet until they get horny again and then post topics on here about how they hate fems, and how they dont see the point in gay pride events. Also, why cannot gay men define masculinity? In my opinion, homosexuality is the highest form of male-supremacy! For all the stereotypers, please stop being morons and start educating yourselves about reality.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 15, 2007 8:44 PM GMT
    I got into a big discussion with some friends last night over this issue all though it had more to do with them lamenting how so many men are "queeny" and there aren't enough "masculine, normal men." Gawd! Well, needlesstosay, 30 minutes later they were done with that topic after I tore them all a new one though I must say we (gay men) can be some of the biggest homophobes of all. And as some have pointed out, the ones who think they look/act/seem "str8acting" ACTUALLY look/act/seem like some of the biggest queens to real straight men. Sorry, but so many gay men are just being "drag kings" it's pathetic! Instead of subscribing to one vision of masculinity, why don't we expand upon it? And really (to be crude about it), if we both have cocks and are in bed who cares about who's the "real" man and who's the "queen": it all comes out the same anyway!

    I find the older and more enlightened I get, the less I have tolerance for gay men acting like authoritarians when it comes to gender roles. Society discriminates against us not because I wear lipgloss and you wear flannel but rather, because we like sucking other men's dicks. When we get this fundamental point down, we'll be able to move on.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 15, 2007 10:13 PM GMT
    "I think the Butch wannabes in the gay community are ironic. Why? Ask a str8 guy what his idea of the stereotype gay guy is, he's going to say: big muscles, goatee, tattoos, leather harness, flannels--many things that gay guys regard as masculine. There's a completely irrational disconnect when some of us gay guys try to define masculinity."

    This has actually been documented. Unfortunately, I can't remember who did the poll. But somebody took separate polls of gay and straight people and asked them to identify markers of the gay male stereotype. The gay men all identified girly markers and the majority of straight people mentioned leather, muscles, etc.

    Weirdly, both stereotypes are kind of gender impersonations -- the first of women and the second of men. It makes you wonder if there wasn't some wisdom in the 19th century notion of gay people as a third gender, uranians.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 16, 2007 12:25 AM GMT
    While I would not call most of my friends femme, I have had quite a few that I would think of as at least somewhat femme. How masculine or effeminate someone is, is a non-issue for me when it comes to friendship. With all due respect, some guys are just feminine and that part of them is a turn-on by certain men and women.

    Personally I find masculinity, in my idealistic form, an aphrodisiac but I also find machismo a turn off. If a guy is femme or unnaturally macho, I will lose my woody. I will also say that what I perceive as masculine may not be what someone else sees.

    I do have a problem with the amateur femme gay culture being shoved down everyone’s throat. Picture yourself in a bar playing pool. Suddenly Ms Thing gets up to perform some horrific act that drives you home. The jokes are cliché, the singing is off-tune, and their idea of feminine would insult most women. A lot of bad drag queens personify all the negative attributes of women without incorporating the positive. There are good and bad shows but it seems everyone, with or without talent, has to be star.

    I also get tired of straights always painting a gay as a stereotype character. They try to recreate their male/female world with leather daddies and drag queens. A gay guy can never be too strong or attractive or it might threaten the weak straight guy. If they really knew how often the women chase after us they would have no security left. “Queer eye…” is loved by straight people because it is just the way the majority are comfortable perceiving us. “Brokeback Mountain”, I imagine, hits too close too home for many men and women, but is probably closer to the truth of the non-heterosexual world.

    I have come to the conclusion that only about 1%-3% of the male population is so femme they could never “pass as straight”. I figured this number out by looking at the studies that conclude that gays or a mere 3% of the population. Non-heterosexuals account for a far larger percentage but that would threaten the straight and narrow world if they ever found out. I’m convinced that between a 1/2 to 3/4s of the “not completely straight” population is in the closet. The point is most guys who like cock are not femme.

    The femmes, however, are on the front line. They carry most of the homophobic weight of our culture. Many of them don’t have a choice about being in or out of the closet.

    I’m not exactly in the closet but my sexuality is not the first topic of conversation when I meet someone new. Consequently many eventually ask me if I have kids, am married, or was ever married. If I’m with my nephews (nieces) they call them my sons or daughters. When I meet a single or divorced woman near my age she often starts drilling me to determine if I’m an eligible bachelor. Some can be very aggressive and it can quickly become awkward. When I meet a straight friend’s wife, girlfriend, or sister, they want to hook me up with one of their friends. I don’t imagine femmes have to deal with that but I bet they deal with many things I would never want to encounter. So I’ll drink to their courage, as long as they keep the theatrics for the stage.

    One last point, the more sophisticated and “gay sensitive” a culture the more likely they capable of believing that an attractive eligible bachelor over 40 that has never married and does not talk about girlfriends is probably not so eligible.
  • Drewboo

    Posts: 28

    Jul 17, 2007 5:03 AM GMT
    Most of those studies with the 3% figure are referring to the percentage of "out" homosexuals - or people self-identifying with the term gay/lesbian. Looking farther into those same studies you will find that actually 7-8% of the respondants reported that they exclusively participated in same-sex behaviors and had never participated in opposite-sex behaviors. They may not have self-identified themselves as gay or lesbian, but they were homosexuals according to the studies. The best studies we currently have indicate that 7-8% of males are homosexual, and 8-9% of females are homosexual. However, only 1.4% of females identify as lesbian and only 2.8% of males identify as gay.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 20, 2007 8:34 PM GMT
    I think it’s the idea of being obviously perceived as gay. I’ve got several friends who, Like Jack on Will and Grace, my blind great grandmother who has been dead for four years would be able to tell was a homo. And then there are guys, like my BF, who even the gay guys say, “You’re gay?”

    Those who are perceived as masculine (or wish to be perceived as such) are the ones who most people would assume are straight. No OGTs (Obviously Gay Traits). Stereotypes have changed in the past decade or so, with gay traits among heteros being stylish, fit, muscular, etc., but the image many of us grew up with is the homosexual as flaming.

    In the past year, I’ve had a dozen or so (straight) people tell me that I never tripped their Gaydar, though I can say why not as I’m not overly butch (we don’t use that word anymore, do we?).

    And I once dated a hyper-masculine guy (Pick-up truck with ladder bars and he was an accountant, tight jeans with work boots, t-shirt sleeves rolled up ) who spent 30 minutes explaining to me why wearing a light shade of eyeliner to the club wasn’t feminine. Than ended quickly.

    Besides, how funny is it to walk into a Leather Bear’s house and find delicate chotzky and ruffles on the bed?! Next to the Sling no less!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 30, 2007 6:32 PM GMT
    RE: Masc/Fem .....My experiential observations informs me that we have much to be grateful for the queens amongst our community. It is usually the queens who are first to step up against discrimination in whatever form especially against gays as a whole. The queens I've known (know) have always expressed very manly characteristics of courage, integrity, strength, kindness and compassion. I reject those who state they are str8acting immediately because that superficiality does not represent to me the characteristics in a man I look for. While I myself am not a "fem" I never live in fear of being around queens or being seen in public with them. Life is way too short and fear or discirimination is not a manly trait and it certainly has no place in a gay man at any rate; mostly because I can't see how it is helpful, not only to the individual but to us all. peace.