Absent PA/PLO recognition of Israel (or renunciation of terrorism) only 5% of Americans support PA state, 79% oppose

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    Sep 22, 2011 3:22 AM GMT
    Newsflash (11/10/11):
    Propaganda pouncer blurts out that the unilateral bid for Palestinian Arab statehood is an end-run of the peace process:

    pp> The whole purpose of the statehood bid is to pre-empt a final status agreement - everyone knows that



    Obama to Abbas: U.S. will veto Palestinians at UN
    U.S. President Obama appeals to Palestinian President Abbas at meeting on sidelines of UN General Assembly; Palestinian envoy says Obama 'reiterated commitment' to Palestinian state during meeting.


    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/obama-to-abbas-u-s-will-veto-palestinians-at-un-1.385932

    U.S. President Barack Obama told Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas on Wednesday that UN action would not achieve a Palestinian state and the United States would veto any Security Council move to recognize Palestinian statehood, the White House said.

    "We would have to oppose any action at the UN Security Council including, if necessary, vetoing," Ben Rhodes, the White House national security council spokesman, told reporters after Obama met Abbas in New York.

    ...Earlier Wednesday, U.S. President Barack Obama delivered a speech at the UN General Assembly on Wednesday, urging the Palestinians to renew negotiations with Israel, rather than seek statehood at the UN.
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    Sep 22, 2011 3:28 AM GMT
    Palestinians seek statehood, but Gaza is forgotten
    By Ibrahim Barzak
    Associated Press

    http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2011/Sep-17/149022-palestinians-seek-statehood-but-gaza-is-forgotten.ashx#ixzz1YeF1adOW

    GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip: In the Palestinians' high-profile bid to seek statehood at the United Nations, half the future nation they envision has been all but forgotten. Residents of the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip are watching frustrated from the sidelines as the West Bank-based leadership pushes for the long-held dream.

    The move for U.N. recognition has created a quandary for the Islamic militant Hamas, which violently overran Gaza three years ago and set up a rival government there. They can't publicly oppose the idea of statehood, but they are wary of giving a boost to their West Bank rival, internationally backed President Mahmoud Abbas. They also don't want to appear to recognize Israel, as the move implicitly does by calling for a state only on territories captured in 1967.

    Palestinian leaders in the West Bank "forget the missing part, which is Gaza," said Taher Khalil, a 45-year-old retired civil servant and father of seven.

    "We only know about this move from TV, we don't know what is right and what is wrong ... no one came out and told us what the future will look like after we submit the bid at the U.N.," he said.

    Abbas' Palestinian Authority is seeking recognition of an independent state on territories that Israel captured in the 1967 Mideast war, including the West Bank, east Jerusalem and Gaza. Israel withdrew soldiers and settlers from Gaza in 2005, but still controls its crossings, blockades its coast and occupies the West Bank and east Jerusalem.

    Abbas' government has wielded no authority in Gaza, home to 1.5 million Palestinians, since Hamas pushed out Abbas loyalists in 2007 and set up an Islamic-oriented mini-state complete with government ministries, a military force and a postal service.

    Hamas, allied with Iran and openly committed to Israel's destruction, does not support the U.N. move, but has largely kept a low profile, not openly condemning it. Instead, Hamas officials have chided Abbas – also known by his nickname Abu Mazen – for going it alone.

    "Abu Mazen's decision to go to the U.N. without consulting with Palestinian factions about the negative and positive impact of such a move and with only partial Arab, Islamic and international support is something very risky," said Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum.

    "We are talking about issues related to the fate of the Palestinian people," he said. "Such a move must be studied by experts and decisions should be taken by all the parties concerned, not individually."

    Further complicating matters, the last time Palestinians held parliamentary elections, in 2006, Hamas won, and the group claims that it is thus the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, not the Palestinian Authority. Abbas' government is internationally recognized and bankrolled by foreign aid, but his term has expired and he currently governs by decree, with Israel holding overall security control in the West Bank.

    In Gaza, souvenir cups are on sale commemorating the statehood initiative, and the U.N. bid appears to have become the talk of the town among average Gazans. But opinions vary.

    Awny Ouda, a 23-year-old student at Gaza's Islamic University, said he would not be satisfied with a state based on the lines Israel held before the 1967 war and wants one that replaces Israel.

    "Abbas wants to give the remains of our lands and rights on a silver tray to the occupation," he said. "Recognizing the Palestinian state on the 1967 borders would deprive us of returning to our lands of 1948."

    Rawan Hassan, a 42-year-old teacher, called the bid a "cosmetic step."

    "The conflict with Israel is not over and it will never be over unless the Palestinian state is established on the ground and not on paper," she said.

    But Zuhair Hamdan, a 25-year-old waiter at a seaside coffee shop, said the Palestinians had nothing to lose and were getting some positive attention for a change.

    "The past weeks the world has been busy finding out what's happening and this is something rare when you see the name of Palestine on TV without a link to violence and blood," he said.

    Abbas's U.N. bid has put him in a showdown with Israel and the United States, both of whom object to the U.N. initiative and say Palestinian independence should come only as a result of peace negotiations.

    A successful U.N. vote will not change the situation on the ground, either in Gaza or the West Bank. Abbas and his colleagues say they are turning to the U.N. in frustration after years of failed peace talks with Israel, and they believe recognition will improve their position if talks resume. International bodies like the U.N. and the World Bank say that after years of foreign investments and aid, the institutions necessary for statehood are in place in the West Bank.

    Gaza, meanwhile, has been mired in poverty, worsened by years of Israeli blockade since Hamas's takeover. Although Israel evacuated Gaza in 2005, it still controls crossings and has a naval blockade on the tiny Mediterranean strip. Armed militants from Hamas and smaller factions regularly launch rockets from Gaza at towns inside Israel, drawing Israeli retaliation.

    Because of the dramatically different world views of Hamas and Abbas' Fatah faction that heads the Palestinian Authority, several rounds of reconciliation attempts between them have failed in recent years. A framework deal signed earlier this year has not been implemented and the sides remain as divided as ever....
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    Sep 22, 2011 3:31 AM GMT
    UN diplomats say countries intimidated into supporting Palestinian bid
    Member states fear Arab and Muslim blocs will not support them in important council and committee bids if they fail to vote for Palestinian independence.


    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/un-diplomats-say-countries-intimidated-into-supporting-palestinian-bid-1.384263

    Diplomats in the UN said their support for the Palestinian statehood bid stems from fear of revenge from Muslim and Arab nations loyal to the Palestinian cause.

    Sources said some countries will support the Palestinians not because they believe in their cause, but because Muslim and Arab countries may take punitive measures against them when they will need support in the Security Council or in bids to be appointed to important UN bodies.

    A senior Western diplomat told Haaretz that the Nonaligned Bloc's votes were of particular importance. "It is the largest regional bloc," he said, "and is greatly sympathetic to the Palestinian matter."

    Diplomats have pointed to Australia as an example of this intimidation. Australia is already pushing its nomination for a seat on the UN Security Council next year, and is expected to weigh its steps carefully so as not anger the Muslim and Arab nations and the Nonaligned Bloc. Canada, on the other hand, has failed in promoting its nomination for a seat, not least because of its support for Israel.

    The Palestinian bid is not very popular among diplomats, who say it is "a nuisance we would like to have behind us."

    Ambassadors in New York agree with Israel's position that the Palestinian bid is a wrong move that may bring unwanted results. Yet they say Israel is to blame as it has failed to present any political initiatives, leading to a lengthy political deadlock.
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    Sep 22, 2011 7:33 PM GMT
    US delegation walks out on Ahmadinejad UNGA speech

    Iranian leader attacks US as root of evil in the world; says anyone who questions the facts of September 11th or the Holocaust is threatened with sanctions; casts doubt on US killing of Osama bin Laden.


    http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=239098

    NEW YORK -- At the United Nations General Assembly plenary meeting on Thursday, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad prompted a walkout by substantial numbers of delegates when he yet again deemed September 11th a conspiracy theory and mentioned his skepticism about the Holocaust.

    Many delegates got up and left the General Assembly hall ten minutes into the Iranian leader's speech when he suggested that European countries use the Holocaust as a pretext for giving aid to Israel.

    In typically florid prose, Ahmadinejad's twenty minute speech bemoaned the world's inequities of wealth and power. He did not allude to the issue preoccupying most General Assembly attendees, specifically the Palestinians' plans to apply to the United Nations for statehood recognition.

    Instead, he posed a series of rhetorical questions which implicitly posited that the United States is at the root of the world's ills due to its foreign policy decisions.

    "Mr. Ahmadinejad had a chance to address his own people's aspirations for freedom and dignity, but instead he again turned to abhorrent anti-Semitic slurs and despicable conspiracy theories," United States Mission to the United Nations spokesperson Mark Kornblau said in a statement issued even before Ahmadinejad's speech had concluded.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/23/world/middleeast/irans-president-mahmoud-ahmadinejad-rails-against-the-west-in-united-nations-speech.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

    The United States ["low-level"] delegation was the first to leave... After the Europeans walked out, the hall, not terribly full in the first place, was mostly empty.
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    Sep 25, 2011 6:02 PM GMT
    Hamas quietly hoping for failure of UN bid: analysts

    http://www.france24.com/en/20110921-hamas-quietly-hoping-failure-un-bid-analysts

    AFP - Gaza's Hamas rulers are quietly hoping that the Palestinian bid for UN membership fails, in the hope they can score some political points without a new split, analysts say.

    "If Abu Mazen fails, Hamas will be stronger than ever," political analyst Akram Atallah said, using the nom-de-guerre of Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas.

    "It's his last card," he said, adding that failure would end the prospect of peace negotiations with Israel -- "to the benefit of Hamas."

    The Islamists wrenched control of the Gaza Strip from Abbas's secular Fatah movement in bloody fighting in June 2007.

    They oppose any concessions to Israel and ultimately seek an Islamic state in all of historical Palestine.

    For them, Abbas's campaign for a state alongside Israel in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, including east Jerusalem, is nothing more than a sellout.

    Earlier this month, senior Hamas official Khalil al-Hayya told Palestinian MPs in Gaza that the campaign should be seeking membership for a Palestinian state on all of "historical Palestine" -- including areas now in Israel.

    "Hamas is betting on the failure of Abu Mazen at the UN because it thinks it will be a positive step for Hamas and because it has an interest in hastening the end of his rule," said Mukhaimer Abu Saada, a professor of political science at Gaza's Al-Azhar university.

    Following years of bitter rivalry, Hamas and Fatah signed an unexpected reconciliation deal in May but it has yet to be fully implemented -- and in the meantime, both sides are keen to avoid issues which could exacerbate tensions.

    On Monday, Hamas and Fatah agreed not to stage any demonstrations in Gaza over the demand for full UN membership for a Palestinian state.

    The two sides had "agreed to cancel any action or demonstration supporting or denouncing the recourse by Abu Mazen to the United Nations," a Hamas statement said, indicating the two factions had decided to "unify their positions" in Gaza to avoid any friction which could harm reconciliation efforts.

    Although Hamas has pledged not to do anything to hinder the diplomatic efforts at the United Nations, the Islamist group says it was not consulted over Abbas's plans to seek membership for a Palestinian state on the lines which existed before the 1967 Six Day War.

    "There should have been a consensus on a unified national strategy rather than a solitary decision," said Ismail Radwan, another Hamas leader.

    Last week, Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said that statehood on Abbas's terms could weaken the case for Palestinian refugees to return to their former homes and also delegitimise armed opposition to the Israeli occupation.

    "(It) carries numerous risks and could violate national rights such as the right of return, the right of resistance and self-determination," he said.

    Hamas premier Ismail Haniya said on Sunday that the movement did not support the UN bid, arguing that no Palestinian leader had a mandate to sacrifice fundamental Palestinian rights.

    But he also said Hamas favoured the establishment of a Palestinian state on any part of "historical Palestine" and would not seek to disrupt the attempt.

    "There is no mandate for any Palestinian leadership to infringe on Palestinian national rights, nor is there a mandate for any Palestinian actor to make historic concessions on Palestinian land or rights, foremost among them the right of return," he warned.

    But Hamas would "not place obstacles in the way of the establishment of a Palestinian state with full sovereignty," he added.

    Analysts said the relatively moderate tone of the comments coming from Hamas was an attempt by the Islamists to leave themselves room for manoeuvre in the event that the UN campaign does result in progress for the Palestinian cause.

    "If Abu Mazen gets a state, that state shall be governed by the Palestinian political system, of which Hamas is a part," Atallah said.

    "That would be a political gain for Hamas and boost its legitimacy."

    But success in New York could also work against the Islamist movement.

    "It would be a setback to Hamas since the project (led by Fatah's Abbas) would appear to be achieving better results than its own," he said.

    While Abbas would be able to take credit for statehood and international recognition, Hamas would simply be seen as being responsible for the blockade on Gaza which Israel imposed in June 2006 after militants snatched soldier Gilad Shalit in a cross-border raid.
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    Sep 27, 2011 8:29 PM GMT
    U.S. lawmaker: Palestinians must return to peace talks or suffer possible divestment
    U.S. State Department waits for Palestinians' 'official response' to Quartet proposal; U.S. Congress members suggest reevaluation of U.S. financial assistance to Palestinian Authority.


    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/u-s-lawmaker-palestinians-must-return-to-peace-talks-or-suffer-possible-divestment-1.386872

    ...In a statement on Friday, the Quartet - the United Nations, the European Union, the United States and Russia - said it wanted to see comprehensive proposals within three months on territory and security, and substantial progress within six months, with a goal of a deal by the end of 2012.

    ...Palestinian Foreign Minister Riyad al-Malki rejected on Saturday the Quartet's proposal to renew peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.
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    Sep 28, 2011 6:05 AM GMT
    jprichva saidThe Palestinians are entitled to a state on the day they agree in writing that Israel has the right to exist.

    Is that so hard to understand?




    Thats a NO NO, because its a 'precondition' according to Netanyahu, and in case you cannot remember Israel's right to exist was accepted long ago, but of course the Israeli propaganda and its lobby AIPAC only want your version to be heard,

    Just like they keep repeating that Olmerts offers weren't accepted by the Palestinians, Bullshit !!! Olmert's term in office was over and you can guess who came in line next to Ruin Olmert's offers by not abiding by them, nor honoring them, but of course rather than tell that, the Lobby only tries to blame Palestinians. The news is out, you cannot trust this what comes from this group in power nor the AIPAC lobby.

    By the way Netanyahu keeps complaining about Unilateral actions of Palestinians going for statehood, but he Unilaterally approved another 1100 settlement Units on Disputed Palsetinian Territory yesterday, that is in addition to around 5000 so far this year.

    Come up with something better to gripe about the palestinians, at least they aren't stealing Israeli's homeland are they !!!
  • CuriousJockAZ

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    Sep 28, 2011 4:11 PM GMT
    jprichva saidThe Palestinians are entitled to a state on the day they agree in writing that Israel has the right to exist.

    Is that so hard to understand?



    EXACTLY!
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    Sep 28, 2011 4:39 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    jprichva saidThe Palestinians are entitled to a state on the day they agree in writing that Israel has the right to exist.

    Is that so hard to understand?



    EXACTLY!


    PRECISELY!
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    Sep 28, 2011 5:21 PM GMT
    Well you three just above me show just perfectly how shallow you are, you relegate facts to mere "weasel talk" because you have insuficient facts to dispute the truth. Next you make the subject even more shallow with the worn out line "recognize us as a Jewish state" Israel has been recognized by the PLO, by Abbas, just because you keep saying something does not make it so.

    Adding the words Jewish State is for what purpose, are these two words of more conseguence that Israel breaking its own agreements by building more and more settlements on disputed/occupied Palestinian land ? What trivial persuit with Israel's far right LIKUDS take up next to take the attention off the real blocks to peace ?

    Where are your facts to dispute Pouncer's expounding on the truth that the LIKUDS and your favorite Lobby, AIPAC don't want the world to know?
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    Sep 28, 2011 5:29 PM GMT
    Netanyahu for president!
  • CuriousJockAZ

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    Sep 28, 2011 5:35 PM GMT
    realifedad said Israel has been recognized by the PLO, by Abbas, just because you keep saying something does not make it so.



    Interesting. I guess I missed Abbas stand before the United Nations, extend the olive branch to the Israelis, and recognize and declare his support for a Jewish state. Do they really want peace...or just spend the rest of eternity playing the victim which will get them nowhere?
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    Sep 28, 2011 6:57 PM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    realifedad said Israel has been recognized by the PLO, by Abbas, just because you keep saying something does not make it so.



    Interesting. I guess I missed Abbas stand before the United Nations, extend the olive branch to the Israelis, and recognize and declare his support for a Jewish state. Do they really want peace...or just spend the rest of eternity playing the victim which will get them nowhere?


    Really, not much has changed. From back 10 years ago

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/jan/03/comment.israelandthepalestinians

    Until now

    http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2011/09/21/abbas-israel-right-to-exist/

    And until Abbas recognizes and declares his support for Isreal - Go Netanyahu
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    Sep 28, 2011 7:28 PM GMT
    Where are your facts from today ? Abbas does accept the right of Israel to exist, read his Bid for Statehood, to be next to "THE STATE OF ISRAEL" did you miss that?

    Is Netanyahu so hard up for some reason to hang his foot dragging on for continuing the settlement building on stolen land, that all he can come up with is adding the word "Jewish" next to state to make claims that Abbas won't accept something ?


    Where is your answers to the glaring point that Israel is breaking international law in moving its citizens onto the occupied territory of its neighbor? ANSWERS PLEASE ? not more propaganda from the Liar Netanyahu either. Why do you think some 130 t0 150 have already declared for Palestine? Do you want our country to be as Isolated as Israel's far right LIKUDS are bringing about for Israel ? Read from Haaretz and many an article has comment after comment against 'Yahu", They are who you should listen too, because most jews probably even the majority of American Jews are against Yahu's and Liebermans far right swing, Read their comments !! Just because Yahu is the current leader doesn't mean we ignore what Israeli's by and large want, which is peace. AIPAC just happens to be louder than the average citizen, just like our far right Christian TBaggers are here in the US.


    I'll ask again, what court case, what world conflict or any other situation in this world do you know of where a party can legitimately claim justice in stealing from those from whom they want peace ? WHERE THE HELL DOES IT WORK LIKE THIS ?

    There are no reasonable explainations, nothing but Netanyahu's and AIPACs lies and Propaganda. The far right LIKUDS are the express reason why Abbas went to the UN, because of their Unilaterally Stealing of Land designated for their future state, which is by every standard of measure in the International law and community, just plain wrong. No amount of your Propaganda lies and excuses can make this right, and the "Bible story they base it all on is no excuse either" Abraham had no deeds and he certainly didn't sign any !!

    FACTS !! Where are your FACTS? No propaganda answers the need for facts, it is no exuse for breaking the laws and agreements of the parties, theft is even wrong in their bible. So lets have some facts to back up theft and this rediculous excuse about the word "Jewish" in front of 'State'.

    Maybe all countries should come up with a religion to put before their successive states and demand everyone recognize it. Here again, the Far Right in Israel, seems to think they are 'entitled' to something no one else seeks. Gotta hand it to them, they got "CHUTZPAH".

    Looking forward to your facts as apposed to more propaganda.
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    Sep 28, 2011 7:34 PM GMT
    Netanyahu for president!
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    Sep 28, 2011 7:42 PM GMT
    freedomisntfree said Netanyahu for president!





    STILL WAITING ON THOSE FACTS ?????
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    Sep 28, 2011 7:47 PM GMT
    Cap lock broken again?

    Netanyahu for president!
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    Sep 28, 2011 8:47 PM GMT
    Pouncer saidBetter than being a broken record, freedomisntfree.

    There's plenty in both RLD's post and mine that you could debunk if you had the "facts" to do so. That all three of you can't do so is very revealing.

    You say the Palestinians have been "playing the victims" for the last 60 years. I could be very indelicate and mention that the same accusation has often been levelled against another ethnic group down the centuries - and not entirely without merit.

    But I think that at the end of the day, the Israeli achievement in this regard really is something to admire.
    Do you have any idea how difficult it is to successfully pull off the "victim" stunt when you're as armed and powerful as Israeli is? When you have for an official "enemy" the mere wretched of the Earth - their bones literally snapping under the weight of your metal jackboots?!

    It's more than an achievement. It's the propaganda coup of the century.





    Well thank you !!! now lets see some facts to dispute the truth you've again exposed.

    here's some truth from an apparent Jewish commentor on a Haaretz article about Israels storm clouds gathering:

    "The PLO recognized Israels right to exist in 1988, 23 years ago, Since then Israel under LIKUD was opposed to a Palestinians State's existence, not the other way around." Look up the LIKUD Party Platform Documents and statements. They have absolutely no intention of giving in to a Palesinian state. READ FOR YOURSELVES !!!

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    Sep 28, 2011 9:45 PM GMT
    jprichva saidThe Palestinians are entitled to a state on the day they agree in writing that Israel has the right to exist.

    Interestingly enough, Americans who have heard more about this issue are less likely to support Palestinian Arab statehood.

    Note further that the number of Americans supporting Palestinian Arab statehood has dropped by 1/3rd since 2002.

    By a ratio of 4:1, Americans feel President Obama is overly favoring the Palestinian Arabs.

    [Source: Pew Research, 20 Sep 2011.]

    It's also important to understand that the 42% of Americans who support Palestinian Arab statehood (and jprichva and I would be included in that minority) don't do so in a vacuum.
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    Sep 28, 2011 10:32 PM GMT
    realifedad said
    Pouncer saidBetter than being a broken record, freedomisntfree.

    There's plenty in both RLD's post and mine that you could debunk if you had the "facts" to do so. That all three of you can't do so is very revealing.

    You say the Palestinians have been "playing the victims" for the last 60 years. I could be very indelicate and mention that the same accusation has often been levelled against another ethnic group down the centuries - and not entirely without merit.

    But I think that at the end of the day, the Israeli achievement in this regard really is something to admire.
    Do you have any idea how difficult it is to successfully pull off the "victim" stunt when you're as armed and powerful as Israeli is? When you have for an official "enemy" the mere wretched of the Earth - their bones literally snapping under the weight of your metal jackboots?!

    It's more than an achievement. It's the propaganda coup of the century.





    Well thank you !!! now lets see some facts to dispute the truth you've again exposed.

    here's some truth from an apparent Jewish commentor on a Haaretz article about Israels storm clouds gathering:

    "The PLO recognized Israels right to exist in 1988, 23 years ago, Since then Israel under LIKUD was opposed to a Palestinians State's existence, not the other way around." Look up the LIKUD Party Platform Documents and statements. They have absolutely no intention of giving in to a Palesinian state. READ FOR YOURSELVES !!!



    It’s a good thing for you, and what’s evidentially your favorite religion, that we’re not much into that Fatwa death warrant thing or you wouldn’t have to worry about a ‘real life’. One wonders, post after post after post after post of your withering criticism of Christianity why we see little if any condemnation from you of Islam. Can’t you be any equal opportunity hater?

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    Sep 29, 2011 1:33 AM GMT
    Pouncer saidHilarious. One in all likelihood doesn't know what a "fatwa" constitutes, and the other doesn't know how to read poll data:

    ...


    I think you'd be surprised, and yes, I read that specific poll.
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    Sep 29, 2011 5:08 AM GMT
    Pouncer saidHow about 'Go Bachmann 2012'?


    What's that have to do with anything? Bachmann can go wherever she wants , this year or 2012
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    Sep 29, 2011 5:11 AM GMT
    [quote][cite]Pouncer said[/cite]Better than being a broken record, freedomisntfree.

    There's plenty in both RLD's post and mine that you could debunk if you had the "facts" to do so. That all three of you can't do so is very revealing.

    [quote]

    Revealing my ass. It has nothing to do with "can't". It's that I'm not going to spend the next 10,000 posts and 20 years of my life going 'round and 'round about it.
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    Sep 29, 2011 3:28 PM GMT
    Pouncer saidEvidently then, at least on c4's principle, you "can't".
    You and others have said "Go Netanyahu", and words to that effect. So what's wrong with suggesting ways to make his next few years in office easier?



    Or won't. I still work for a living and there other matters of far more importance than this one.

    Ok, how 'bout Go Bebe
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    Sep 29, 2011 4:50 PM GMT
    Pouncer saidNo, c4's principle, annunciated countless times, is "won't" = "can't".

    How about "Perry 2012"?
    At least he stands a fighting chance of winning a few primaries.
    Netanyahu on the other hand, having mishandled Israel's economy, its settlers, and its foreign relations (and refusing to resign over these scandals), is likely to lead the Likud into the mother of all electoral defeats at the next Israeli election - just like he did in 1999.

    Then again, choices for Israeli president tend to only vary slightly between tweedle-dee and tweedle-dum. Or in the last case, tweedle-dum and tweedle-dumber.


    Sorry, I'll stick with 'won't'

    I've seen far too many of C's4 and RLD's 10,000 word posts plus your slightly shorter ones. No way do I have time for that. You three feel free to enjoy yourself for the next 30 or 40 years. Knock yourselves out.

    I'm busy enough trying to make a living plus stay very tuned to our general election. I could care little about Isreal's. I still like Bebe though. Good man.

    Perry 2012? Not real enthused, but I haven’t seen enough of him yet to really make a decision. So far he comes off to me as another Texas semi liberal like GWB and LBJ.