The mystery of the blond-haired, blue-eyed Norse god

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    Sep 27, 2011 1:33 AM GMT
    I'd like to start off by apologizing for posting a forum thread whose questions, by their nature, will objectify certain people groups and possibly bring about race-thread forum-type dynamics. But men, I believe we've handled enough of these situations to be gentlemen about it. My curiosity has been killing me; humor it.

    When I first heard the expression, "Blondes have more fun," I thought it was just another one of those silly things that people said. But what if they DO have more fun?

    Throw into this the existence of movie titles like, "Gentlemen prefer blondes," or lines like, "And I'm blond. You've got no idea how far that gets me," (Justin Taylor, Queer as Folk) and I find myself asking, "What if blondes not only HAVE more fun but are more fun TO HAVE? Obviously, I have never been blond; not so obviously, I have never been with a blonde.

    I had to ask myself this question when I began noticing a certain dynamic at my gym. This was when I was single:
    I would see an attractive black guy.
    I would initiate contact.
    I would try to figure out whether he was gay.
    He would give off "straight vibes".
    I would not be fully convinced.
    However, I would respect his response enough to walk away.

    And I would ask, "What is it about me, or my approach, that turned off a guy who should have been interested?" It would not compute; I believe sexual attraction has an element of mathematical logic to it, and I know when I am someone's type in terms of personality. I can only be wrong for one reason, and it's a reason that can only be verified by further observation. And further observation is exactly what I would get. Because a few days, or weeks, after my attempt, I would discover that the attractive black guy was dating a white guy [who was not in the picture when I made my attempt]. If the white guy was blond, the attractive black guys would practically trip over themselves trying to get to him.

    Race is the random factor that makes it impossible to always anticipate a guy's response. No matter how exhaustive my understanding of who a guy is and what he wants, race is the blind spot that could make nonsense out of what I know to be true. I have no intention of turning this into an oh-woeth-me-nobody-likes-me-is-it-because-I'm-black? forum thread. The grandest answer to that self-pitying question could never change the reality of that which is; the answer could never change my experience of that reality, nor enable me to communicate the essence of that experience to another. Furthermore, that answer could never strip people of their sacred right to like whom they like and prefer what they prefer -- we in the gay community should know better than anyone else just how evil it would be to do that. I do not begrudge the gorgeous blond white guys the few pleasures that life affords them -- and I think it's no exaggeration to state that in a country like South Africa where the good-looking, smart, "straight-acting" blonde, blue-eyed guy is a rare "commodity", a racial gradient is created. This guy is so desirable that I strongly doubt that there is anything such as "unattainable" in his world. Gay men want him and straight men are willing to turn gay for him. In this gradient, it is not wrong to specify that you're only looking to date "up" (if you read online dating profiles here in South Africa, you will know I am telling the truth). One recalls a newspaper ad titled, "Black bottom seeks white top" [top I could do; white would be more difficult] and the speech of generations that saw the end of apartheid reflects a world-view that's not fading soon; I know a woman, mentally sound, who compliments men on their looks by saying, "He's handsome, like a white man." It is not my intention to cause guilt, awkwardness, pointless introspection and self-inspection for the presence of prejudice, or overstated demonstrations of open-mindedness ("What are you talking about, I like all men equally") but simply to ask honest questions that will hopefully get honest answers. I am trying to orient myself in the world I've found I have been born in, and I want the realistic truth not politically correct platitudes. And please don't let the thought that if any of this is true then it's unfair. Life's not fair. Just, perhaps, but never fair. In fact, "fairness" gets in the way of "justice" so the two are incompatible.

    The first question is whether nature is responsible. Nature, in her infinite genius, wisdom and resourcefulness, compensated for an adaptative weakness by turning a lack into an attractive feature. The theory goes that in the absence of sufficient sunlight, some people's features refined a way of lessening pigment in skin, eyes, and subsequently hair. Evolution reached its peak by producing, paradoxically, persons who lacked the strengths required to thrive in this world but, in that lack and in that absence, reflected a dimension "other" than survival -- one that is more about beauty than need. The theory goes that by transcending the bare need for survival, nature displayed a new artistry that we've come to understand. This is why a painted depiction of an angel, for example, will more likely show blue eyes, blond hair and white skin. Think about it: the presence of bodily fat used to indicate fertility in women, for men. But its absence is now "desirable". Nature is good at marketing like that.

    Or is the media to blame?

    Generational teachings? The sins of the fathers being visited upon the sons?

    What is it? Why is the B/B combo so compelling?
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    Sep 27, 2011 1:41 AM GMT
    I'll have to chaw on this a little but for the time being. Never was attracted to blond guys myself. In fact I don't think I ever sexed with a blond guy
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    Sep 27, 2011 1:58 AM GMT
    Skhokho1987 said...

    Or is the media to blame?

    Generational teachings? The sins of the fathers being visited upon the sons?

    What is it? Why is the B/B combo so compelling?


    Culture can convey an ideal of beauty. However, ultimately...
    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Hot is hot.

    Somewhere there is somebody for everybody.
    6ada83548bee8c459f3bd29abdb0ef29.jpg

  • commoncoll

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    Sep 27, 2011 2:28 AM GMT
    In South Africa, it may be for the reasons you have mentioned-lack of blond/blue. Unfortunately, the whole world prefers lighter skin to darker skin. Blonds have some of the lightest skins around. It seems more exotic and is available more than the rarer red-heads. Blue and green eyes are more attractive than brown, because there are so few of them.

    But apparently in the US, it is changing. For example, I remember reading an article a couple of months ago where a Latina was considered to be most attractive woman,and an Indian was considered to be the most attractive man. Also tanning is a big phenomena unknown outside of the North-west hemisphere.

    It is interesting that you mention the blond/blue eyed angel. You see that reflected in the images of contemporary Jesus paintings. This is relatively new and has been seen only the last 300 years or so. The real Jesus of Judah was probably a brown haired brown eyed man much like the men around him.
  • qd2009

    Posts: 164

    Sep 27, 2011 2:41 AM GMT
    commoncoll said
    But apparently in the US, it is changing. For example, I remember reading an article a couple of months ago where a Latina was considered to be most attractive woman,and an Indian was considered to be the most attractive man. Also tanning is a big phenomena unknown outside of the North-west hemisphere.


    Indian men being most attractive? Doesn't sound right... Do you mean native american men?
  • commoncoll

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    Sep 27, 2011 2:44 AM GMT
    qd2009 said
    commoncoll said
    But apparently in the US, it is changing. For example, I remember reading an article a couple of months ago where a Latina was considered to be most attractive woman,and an Indian was considered to be the most attractive man. Also tanning is a big phenomena unknown outside of the North-west hemisphere.


    Indian men being most attractive? Doesn't sound right... Do you mean native american men?

    My bad. They used models. The Indian male model was considered to be the most attractive. And I read it on a fashion magazine-forget which one. I highly doubt it was a scientific survey.

    See what I mean about the whole world prefers a lighter face?
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    Sep 27, 2011 3:39 AM GMT
    MaxLukacs saidI very highly doubt that Indian men are considered the hottest in the US. The ones I've seen are not that hot.

    Latina women are beautiful, as are Latino men. Latinos are my favorites period.

    And no... I'm not Latino

    adam.gif




    You really do like that picture,, makes ya giggle does'nt it

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    Sep 27, 2011 3:49 AM GMT
    I think we're often most keenly aware of things which we feel are to our disadvantage. None of us likes to be left out: I see a guy, I think he's interesting, I approach him, and he's not receptive. So when I get some kind of clue about the possible reason, I identify that *possible* reason as the actual reason.

    And I ignore other possibilities, such as that he's monogamous, that he likes long hair, that my accent reminds him of someone he hates, or that two weeks ago I didn't notice he wanted to work in on a machine and he's still pissed.

    I wonder if there are blond white guys at your gym who keep asking, why are all the hot blond white guys dating black men?

    Asian guys post here about how hard it is for them to get interest from white guys. Other Asian guys post about how hard it is to get Asian men to date because they're all chasing white guys. (And meanwhile, I can't get the Asian guys at my gym to give me the time of day).

    I can't speak specifically to the situation in South Africa, but I think people, gay or bi or straight of any color, always feel loss more keenly than gain.
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    Sep 27, 2011 4:37 AM GMT
    Skhokho1987 said


    The first question is whether nature is responsible. Nature, in her infinite genius, wisdom and resourcefulness, compensated for an adaptative weakness by turning a lack into an attractive feature. The theory goes that in the absence of sufficient sunlight, some people's features refined a way of lessening pigment in skin, eyes, and subsequently hair. Evolution reached its peak by producing, paradoxically, persons who lacked the strengths required to thrive in this world but, in that lack and in that absence, reflected a dimension "other" than survival -- one that is more about beauty than need. The theory goes that by transcending the bare need for survival, nature displayed a new artistry that we've come to understand. This is why a painted depiction of an angel, for example, will more likely show blue eyes, blond hair and white skin. Think about it: the presence of bodily fat used to indicate fertility in women, for men. But its absence is now "desirable". Nature is good at marketing like that.....


    Evolution did play a role but it had nothing to do with beauty. Fair skin absorbes more vitamin D than dark skin. In Africa you don't have to worry about not getting enough vitamin D from the sun but you do have to worry about being burned so naturally the skin adapts. In Northern Europe there is so little sunlight that Africans living there would have to make sure they are getting vitamin D from their diet because their skin can not absorb enough from the sun light.

    As to the perception that Europeans are considered "more beautiful", that has more to do with military dominance which in a way translates into dominating the media right? Now if you'd like to understand why the Europeans dominated the globe for so long you should read Guns Germs and Steel. It really comes down to the shape of the continent being east west more than north south. This allowed for more cross fertilization of different cultures which lead to transfer of technology and germs. So all the plagues they had, beefed up their immune system (some Europeans are immuned to Aids due to a gene acquired during bubonic plague), and all the wars they had beefed up their technology.

    But here is something to think about. Blonds rarely remain true blonds as they age. I was a red head up until my 30s when my hair started changing colors. What you're hitting on is the pecking order of beauty. You need to have a certain body type, a certain look BUT also be of a certain age. Well nobody can remain the same age so eventually all the guys who are so full of themselves for being a-listed wake up one day and they aren't on the a-list anymore. And guess what? Some don't even realize it. They still think they are.

    The true skill for finding friends and lovers is identifying the people who are impressed with you for everything you are. It's about keeping your eyes out for those who find you attractive and then choosing among them. It's not about chasing after a guy just because everyone wants him. This skill comes in handy when you get older and find you are invisible to so many guys and then a hot one appears who thinks you're the hottest guy around. If your busy chasing mr. nordic then you will probably overlook the dark stud checking you out. Look for beauty in those who find you beautiful and you will be surprised how easy it is to find.

    BTW I like men of all shades but I've always found throughout my life that I've received more attention from darker guys than I do from other fair skinned guys like myself. Part of it is simply that opposites attract.





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    Sep 27, 2011 12:39 PM GMT
    Kobaltjak made some great points, and I would like to respond to them one by one:

    "I think we're often most keenly aware of things which we feel are to our disadvantage." That's human nature. How I've personally chosen to rise above that is getting my "sense of life" not from my advantages but from my relationship with God. The result of this is that what other people would see as a disadvantage really don't matter to me.

    "And I ignore other possibilities..."

    This is why I explicitly said, "I believe sexual attraction has an element of mathematical logic to it, and I know when I am someone's type in terms of personality...Race is the random factor that makes it impossible to always anticipate a guy's response. No matter how exhaustive my understanding of who a guy is and what he wants, race is the blind spot that could make nonsense out of what I know to be true." I know how to rule out and exhaust possibilities extremely well.

    By the time I reach the conclusion that it must have been a race thing, the evidence is glaring me in the face. I'm always the last person to think anything is about race because accusing someone of racism [let's use the term very loosely] is such an ugly thing to do that I prefer to believe any other possibility than believe it's about race. It's happened so many times -- and people have told me with regard to more than one guy, "You'd be perfect for him -- except you're black."

    "I wonder if there are blond white guys at your gym who keep asking, why are all the hot blond white guys dating black men?"

    I wouldn't know. It's an excellent question.

    "Asian guys post here about how hard it is for them to get interest from white guys. Other Asian guys post about how hard it is to get Asian men to date because they're all chasing white guys. (And meanwhile, I can't get the Asian guys at my gym to give me the time of day)."

    I believe you're telling the truth, though I haven't seen these posts first-hand.

    "I can't speak specifically to the situation in South Africa, but I think people, gay or bi or straight of any color, always feel loss more keenly than gain."

    Again, that goes back to human nature. I personally believe that humans will always "feel loss more keenly than gain" until they're able to root themselves in a constant source of security, identity, purpose and acceptance. Then they're more likely to feel gratitude for what life does give them than they will be to resent what life denies them.
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    Sep 27, 2011 1:48 PM GMT
    In CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy), what you're experiencing is called "distorted thinking." There are many types of distorted thinking, but the type I'm guessing you're going through is where you repeatedly discount the positive. Pretty self explanatory...you're not remembering all the times guys are attracted to you. There is also probably some "emotional reasoning" going on. Basically, you feel this particular way, therefore it must be reality. But this is rarely the case. Our feelings are based on many, many things and often time have nothing to do with what's really going on in the real world.

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    Sep 27, 2011 1:55 PM GMT
    WTF.

    TOO LONG. Didn´t read.

    What is your point in one sentence?
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    Sep 27, 2011 1:58 PM GMT
    TL;DR
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    Sep 27, 2011 2:51 PM GMT
    Lostboy saidWTF.

    TOO LONG. Didn´t read.

    What is your point in one sentence?


    If I put it into one sentence, this would become a race thread icon_neutral.gif
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    Sep 27, 2011 2:52 PM GMT
    Inostrankan saidTL;DR


    I respect that.
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    Sep 27, 2011 2:54 PM GMT
    Scruffypup saidIn CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy), what you're experiencing is called "distorted thinking." There are many types of distorted thinking, but the type I'm guessing you're going through is where you repeatedly discount the positive. Pretty self explanatory...you're not remembering all the times guys are attracted to you. There is also probably some "emotional reasoning" going on. Basically, you feel this particular way, therefore it must be reality. But this is rarely the case. Our feelings are based on many, many things and often time have nothing to do with what's really going on in the real world.



    What you're saying could be true. But is there also an element of "the chicken and the egg" scenario there? We get used to the world working a certain way, and we don't see when something different happens. If the sun chose not to rise tomorrow morning, we wouldn't realize it until about 1 hour after expected sunrise time.
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    Sep 27, 2011 3:22 PM GMT
    Trust me, your appearance ain't the problem! icon_rolleyes.gif

    I'll accept your apology for not what you intended but I'll take it anyway.
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    Sep 27, 2011 5:42 PM GMT
    MuchMoreThanMuscle saidI tend to NOT go for blonds either. I like some color.


    me 2. as long as they're not a jerk, i'll take a dark haired man over a blond any day, any time, anywhere.
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    Sep 27, 2011 8:28 PM GMT
    If I like the guy, I like the guy.
    I have standards, yeh we all do haha, but I don't have anything like "this hair/skin/eye color is the best".
    How the guy is shaped & what's inside his mind matter to me.
    Find the beauty that finds your beauty.

    I will add, most of the men that have been attracted to me - & in turn that I've dated, loved, etc - are not white. Since you're asking a large study-like question, I figure I'll add some details haha.
    There's also an odd thing with porn, where race is fetishized. It's either white or "other". It's either interracial or "not". In the same way that ignorant white-owned stores put up signs that say "ethnic hair care", etc..
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    Sep 27, 2011 8:52 PM GMT
    yall missing the point. sexual attraction based on race is like any other 'feature': it's a psychological thiyngy. In a predominantly white society with few blacks (Canada), to be black is exotic and creates desire for many/not all. In a predominantly black society, to be white - esp blond, blue/green and tall, is king. In addition there are many side effects i.e. many prof athletes in the US are black - for various reasons. Having a muscular, athletic appearance then transfers to the entire black male race for some white guys. white guys appear to be smart, aggressive and economically successful and by that image become the desirable icon. Add to it that opposite attract & you cover a large part of the 'unexplainable phenomena' that rules sexual attractions.. & you get all this from a blondy ;p Untitled-4_4bbnmd.jpg
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    Sep 27, 2011 9:04 PM GMT
    I prefer blond/blue since I'm darker. I never approach them unless they express interest in me. I've found a majority of gay guys would never date a person of color besides the occasionally latino/white mix. I know of some guys that even think of people of color as low as dogs. I have a best friend that pretty much only dates darker guys though so there is hope. I think all those years of frontiers and edge ads and porn movies that only show the all american muscle guy is kind of shitty.
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    Sep 28, 2011 3:50 AM GMT
    Skhokho1987, thanks for responding so thoughtfully.

    Perhaps where we diverge in our thinking is best summarized when you write:

    This is why I explicitly said, "I believe sexual attraction has an element of mathematical logic to it, and I know when I am someone's type in terms of personality...Race is the random factor that makes it impossible to always anticipate a guy's response. No matter how exhaustive my understanding of who a guy is and what he wants, race is the blind spot that could make nonsense out of what I know to be true." I know how to rule out and exhaust possibilities extremely well.

    Attraction may have an element of mathematics to it, but it is also governed by a vast array of unpredictables which cannot easily be discerned in someone I have only exchanged a few words with. These can range from an association from someone's teenage years or an encounter someone had a few hours before, to the type of breakfast that was eaten or the music that is being played in the background. We all like to think we account for everything, but it is frankly impossible to do so because we are simply not capable of comprehending everything which is possible. Race is not the blind spot, it is one of many blind spots for all of us.

    Part of what you hear from other people in this thread is the degree to which all kinds of things influence their thinking about what makes a guy attractive. Some people have narrow definitions, some of us are easily led into all kinds of attractions.

    It's all part of the mystery of human attraction.
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    Sep 28, 2011 4:06 AM GMT
    Scruffypup saidIn CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy), what you're experiencing is called "distorted thinking." There are many types of distorted thinking, but the type I'm guessing you're going through is where you repeatedly discount the positive. Pretty self explanatory...you're not remembering all the times guys are attracted to you. There is also probably some "emotional reasoning" going on. Basically, you feel this particular way, therefore it must be reality. But this is rarely the case. Our feelings are based on many, many things and often time have nothing to do with what's really going on in the real world.



    icon_eek.gif I like this post.


    I REALLY like this post!!
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    Sep 28, 2011 3:53 PM GMT
    Kobaltjak saidWe all like to think we account for everything, but it is frankly impossible to do so because we are simply not capable of comprehending everything which is possible.
    ...
    It's all part of the mystery of human attraction.


    Thank you, Kobaltjak (I'm loving your responses, they makes me think!)

    You're right. It's not possible for us to understand how all the dominoes go down. To do so, we'd have to be omniscient. We'd have to be God.

    However, and that said, I must tell you about something I experienced 4 years ago.

    I met a guy. The moment we introduced ourselves to each other, I was floored by a vast amount of information about him. I don't know where it came from, but I suddenly knew who this person was and the things he was struggling with in his life -- though he wasn't fully aware of those things. I understood that if I wanted to get involved, I would somehow help him see things clearer but that my participation would cost me dearly. I also understood that I'd be ready to admit complete emotional defeat after 18 months of knowing him, though he would have gotten the insights he needed to get unstuck and move on.

    In that instant, I had a revelation about those subsequent 18 months -- a timeline, as it were, that would begin its march the instant I consented to be part of the dance. And I knew, again, that I'd be crushed at the end and the best I could hope to walk away with from this situation was maturity -- one of those "it won't kill you, it will make you stronger, but there'll be days you'd prefer for it to kill you" warnings.

    I knew all his intentions, all his weaknesses, and his strengths. I knew the influences and the key players in his life. So while I wouldn't have been able to name his first boyfriend, for example, I would have been able to guess pretty well what he was like and what he'd done to him -- what he had allowed his first boyfriend to do to him. I knew him, and I knew the lessons he had to learn. I could not articulate them without sounding mad; I simply had to get out of the way and let him learn by himself. He had to go through what he had to go through, and I knew that I was the perfect candidate (in fact, the only candidate) to walk through the experience with him. It was far beyond a mechanical, "mathematical" knowledge -- it was far more expansive than that, and it seemed like the most natural thing in the world.

    The day we met, we indicated mutual interest. I signed the dotted line. We went through the acquaintance stage, then friendship, the getting-to-know-you period, then we started dating. But the timeline truly began when we met. It was like a self-fulfilling prophecy and when I tried to alter what I knew was coming, my actions simply hammered the nails in place. When I resisted, it came; when I went with the flow, still things unfolded exactly as I'd known they would.

    I could predict -- with an accuracy that even he described as "uncanny" -- everything he was going to say, feel, disclose, hide, etc. It was as though I'd created him in my own mind. He could never surprise me. Nothing about him ever did, except for the fact that this intelligent, sensitive man could not see that he was acting out of a pattern in his life that he hadn't resolved.

    In a sense, then, we were a perfect karmic match -- one that was doomed to fail.

    So I watched, quite helpless and frustrated, as the friendship that had become a romance started falling apart, dying exactly on schedule. And everything I did, everything I refrained from doing, simply worked together for this thing to unfold as I had sensed it would.

    And a voice in my head would say, "But you were warned that once you'd signed the dotted line, there'd be no going back."

    But I was emotionally invested and involved, now. There was no distance between what I was seeing and myself. I was tied up in it, and when it tore I'd be torn.

    It did tear. I was torn.

    I dropped out of school. I stopped eating properly. My life fell apart, and I let it. All I did all day was look up at the sky and wonder, "Why?"

    What was I so torn up about? Was it the fact that I'd lost this guy, or that I'd seen it coming and couldn't stop it from happening, or that the gravity of "the universe" had brought this series of events about? What tore me apart was the whole thing: it all added up into a dark epiphany about the nature of reality. The nature of the reality each one of us inhabits can be described in five words:

    You attract what you are.

    I must mention that after about those 18 months he completely regretted what he'd done, but it couldn't be undone because I was through and gone -- three days before he realized the magnitude of his mistake, I'd made decisions that made it impossible for us to reconcile. So he found a guy with whom he's now happily in love. It seems he's learned whatever he needed to learn and his pattern has been resolved. I, too, moved on.

    How did I end up? I love him more than words can describe, but I don't need him. I want him to be happy, more than I've ever wanted anything else. But I don't particularly care who he's happy with.

    This feels like love.

    So this didn't kill me; in some strange way, it made me a somewhat better person...

    How did I know exactly how things would unfold? Somehow, without being omniscient I made a leap in logic -- a very accurate mental leap, one that crossed the limits of time and space as we know it -- and I believe I'm not the only one who's experienced something like this. So, Kobaltjak, though you're correct in theory that it's impossible for us to factor all the important bits into our guesses, life experience says otherwise. It says we can "know" without being able to explain how and why we know what we know.
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    Sep 29, 2011 12:33 AM GMT
    Skhokho1987, I'd agree that you learned some important lessons about moving on and how people can help each other even if they are really bad for each other.

    But I have to tell you quite honestly that I have never experienced that kind of clarity in the early (or perhaps any) stage of a relationship. Part of me would be completely overwhelmed by it, and part of me would likely rebel strongly at the implications.

    The best reason I can give you for the rebellion is that those occasions in my life when I think I have finally grasped how the world works and understood my purpose in, have usually come about 24 hours before everything comes crashing down on my head. It hasn't always been a disaster, but it usually signals--for me--that I have been overlooking something really important.

    So perhaps we aren't so far apart, at least when you suggest that your understanding of that relationship was based on lessons you also needed to learn.

    But golly, too man epiphanies like you had would leave me a nervous wreck.icon_wink.gif