Who's the bad guy?

  • The6Degrees

    Posts: 53

    Oct 05, 2011 2:26 AM GMT
    Last year, I did a creative writing project with my students using fairy tales as the impetus for ethical debate.

    For example; In the story of Jack and Beanstalk,
    Jack breaks into the giants home, steals treasure and livestock, then proceeds to kill the giant. While the Giant has done nothing to Jack or his mother.

    What I didn't mention was the more obvious question of religious mythology vs/ their nemeses.

    In several traditional religions, you have certain elements.
    What the religion teaches is ethical (and where those teachings come from) vs. how that religion has behaved (as a whole) vs/ the religions "bad guys"

    In the case of Christianity we have what appears to be a teaching based on "peace and love" but rooted in a jealous and wrathful deity. Its iconography is centered around a mutilated and brutally sacrificed man (ie..the crucifix)

    The religion as a whole is responsible for more deaths than any other religion
    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101113083327AAzYHLl

    and is also almost backhandedly responsible for the worlds homophobia.

    In Christian mythology, you've got several "bad guys" which Christians fear/hate and/or eagerly await in the forms of Lucifer, the AntiChrist, the Beast From the Earth and so on.

    Who...like the Giant, represent pagan religions and tribal practices.

    My question to you is, given the example of Jack and the Giant, applied to Christian eschatology...who's the real bad guy?

    And further, doesn't this "giant slaying" seem a bit too readily accepted
    by the general populous?

    What I mean is...if Jack and the Beanstalk...in this light...turns out to be Christian propaganda and makes murder and theft permissible because the victim wasn't Christian, then doesn't the AntiChrist end up being the real hero???


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    Oct 05, 2011 4:53 AM GMT
    im the bad guy
  • commoncoll

    Posts: 1222

    Oct 05, 2011 5:06 AM GMT
    I have never head or thought that before!icon_eek.gif You made my head hurt.

    The God of Old Testament is a very wrathful God as you say. Not so much in the New Testament until you come to Revelations. Then wooh!

    The mutilated crucified Christ is not due to jealousy of God and while it is violent, it teaches you that suffering is necessary. Carminea just posted a topic about his crisis that he's going through.

    Christianity, like all religions, has its share of the "un-good". They represent the vice in us that we seek to blame on something superstitious. You can't say the Giant wasn't a threat to Jack. Just as you can't say the pagan Romans were not a threat to the Christians.

    It also has to do with hegemony. How dare this giant live while I live! If the Giant represents paganism, it is not one of us. If it is not one of us, then it is un-good.

    I think bad guys depict that which is not known to us. The giant was feared, because he might do something. I think it roots down to what we fear. It's not what comes out of the closet that is evil, but what might.
  • mikey_101

    Posts: 250

    Oct 05, 2011 9:37 AM GMT
    The6Degrees said My question to you is, given the example of Jack and the Giant, applied to Christian eschatology...who's the real bad guy?





    Eschatolgy....Christian Eschatology - as in the apocolyps?

    Not sure where this comes into your question.

  • mikey_101

    Posts: 250

    Oct 05, 2011 9:45 AM GMT
    Religeon, as with fairytails are designed to create black and white issues.


    Us and them.
    Right and Wrong.
    Good and Bad.

    This is designed with control of the populus in mind.

    Devide and Rule as it has always been.

    If we stop looking to hypocritical religeon for our ideas of right and wrong, perhaps we would not be in such a mess.

    Religeon is designed to suffocate spiritality.
    Schooling is desined not to educate but to indoctronaste.
    Banking is designed to steal and devalue the money they are supposed to caretake.
    Humanitarian Missions are the thin veil of regeme change and expliotation other wise known as War.

    Step outside of this and make up your own morals.... if you are true to yourself and hurt no one the concept of good or evil just vanishes.



  • The6Degrees

    Posts: 53

    Oct 05, 2011 11:36 PM GMT
    archon saidim the bad guy


    Archon...chaos has no good or bad...you can't be a Chaos priest and be bad...that would be bad...teehee ;)
  • The6Degrees

    Posts: 53

    Oct 05, 2011 11:37 PM GMT
    mikey_101 saidReligeon, as with fairytails are designed to create black and white issues.


    Us and them.
    Right and Wrong.
    Good and Bad.



    Step outside of this and make up your own morals.... if you are true to yourself and hurt no one the concept of good or evil just vanishes.





    My point exactly. Well...not the entire point...but you get it. icon_smile.gif
  • The6Degrees

    Posts: 53

    Oct 06, 2011 8:48 AM GMT
    If the above made your head hurt...in a beneficial way, try this;

    Etymological Evidence for Pre-Christian Intercultural Interpretations of the Antichrist


    http://haatnath.jimdo.com/app/download/5449921955/4e8d6a70/e4aeb3ebeec56056617e87236e0733a9972ac9de/NewHarKhnamPiece.doc?t=1317890596

    That's something I wrote a few moons ago. icon_smile.gif
    image.gif

    That's something I made with PSe
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    Oct 06, 2011 1:11 PM GMT
    Classic European fairy tales are surprisingly violent, so much so that I wouldn't tell most of them to my young sons, instead reading to them from things like Sesame Street books. And this modern material had educational & constructive messages.

    As for the Giant in "Jack and the Beanstalk" in European mythology a giant is almost always evil & dangerous. You wouldn't need to make that point in the story. Simply say giant and your readers would instantly understand that creature was bad. And if that wasn't enough, in "Jack" the Giant has the rather hostile lines, which the OP doesn't mention, of:

    Fee-fi-fo-fum!
    I smell the blood of an Englishman?
    Be he 'live, or be he dead,
    I'll grind his bones to make my bread.


    Perhaps this stereotyping of giants goes back to Biblical times, when David slew the Philistine warrior giant who'd been ravaging the Hebrew army. That story sorta made it open season on giants everywhere. Nor do giants fare too well in ancient Greek mythology.

    So that Jack isn't the bad guy, but like David, rather the hero. Because what you do against evil is rarely evil itself, in the Judeo-Christian view, but rather permissible and even commendable.
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    Oct 06, 2011 1:28 PM GMT
    Well my theory is, Jack is one of us and we as human want to believe that we are the good ones. Whereas the Giant is big and we are scared from him just because he is different and unknown to us even if we have no good reasoning behind it.
    This is true in real world too.
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    Oct 06, 2011 5:11 PM GMT
    I disagree with you. This is a tale, it needs supernatural, abnormal characters to make it interesting. I believe Jack and the Beanstalk is a Viking tale, not from the Jude-Christian tradition. Note that the Count was not bothered by Jack's red bloody hands, it was a sign of bravery but in the Christian tales, Lady McBeth is very bothered by her bloody hands and is guilty.

    It is like David and Goliath that Art-Deco mentions. The Bible dose not make David into a hero either-he is very human. In his long-lived life, David did have great accomplishments like building the First Temple and defeating his enemies and was a great prophet, but his life is filled with strife. He is a womanizer and his family bears his curse. His daughter is raped by her half-brother, and another son murders that son. The surviving older son rebels and rapes David's wives. David is even deceived on his death bed. It is probably the most entertaining part of the Old Testament.

    Jack is the poor boy living with his widows mother. The Giant deceives Jack into selling him their only cow for beans-there is an idiom which warns not to sell for beans of no real monetary value-probably popularised from this tale.

    When there is a giant beanstalk, Who wouldn't like to climb a giant novel thing going to the sky? What if it goes to heaven? Yes he was trespassing, but he is also imprisoned with threat of death.

    After that, Jack falls to greed and deception. Jack is not a hero. He is simply a boy like us, so he must be like us. The Giant is not a victim either. Note: Jack does not kill the Giant's wife.

    Jack is human, the sin of Eve and Adam is upon him. Remember that Lucifer was an angel who refused God's command of bowing to Man. He becomes Satan when he falls out of God's favor. It was Satan to led to the first murder. Men are weak so they fall to him. But it is through the goodness of his heart that Man realises his guilt and seeks to be forgiven. How is the AntiChrist/Satan a hero?
  • The6Degrees

    Posts: 53

    Oct 07, 2011 7:25 AM GMT
    mikey_101 said
    The6Degrees said My question to you is, given the example of Jack and the Giant, applied to Christian eschatology...who's the real bad guy?





    Eschatolgy....Christian Eschatology - as in the apocolyps?

    Not sure where this comes into your question.



    Oh...sorry, I wasn't specific enough. I was trying to insinuate that,
    if the Giant is the "bad guy" in the story,
    then in Christianity the "giant" is Lucifer/Antichrist etc...
    and because the giant in the bible only really comes out swinging at the end, the fall of the bean stock would be comparable to the apocalypse...see?

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    Oct 07, 2011 7:38 AM GMT
    The6Degrees saidLast year, I did a creative writing project with my students using fairy tales as the impetus for ethical debate.

    For example; In the story of Jack and Beanstalk,
    Jack breaks into the giants home, steals treasure and livestock, then proceeds to kill the giant. While the Giant has done nothing to Jack or his mother.

    What I didn't mention was the more obvious question of religious mythology vs/ their nemeses.

    In several traditional religions, you have certain elements.
    What the religion teaches is ethical (and where those teachings come from) vs. how that religion has behaved (as a whole) vs/ the religions "bad guys"

    In the case of Christianity we have what appears to be a teaching based on "peace and love" but rooted in a jealous and wrathful deity. Its iconography is centered around a mutilated and brutally sacrificed man (ie..the crucifix)

    The religion as a whole is responsible for more deaths than any other religion
    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20101113083327AAzYHLl

    and is also almost backhandedly responsible for the worlds homophobia.

    In Christian mythology, you've got several "bad guys" which Christians fear/hate and/or eagerly await in the forms of Lucifer, the AntiChrist, the Beast From the Earth and so on.

    Who...like the Giant, represent pagan religions and tribal practices.

    My question to you is, given the example of Jack and the Giant, applied to Christian eschatology...who's the real bad guy?

    And further, doesn't this "giant slaying" seem a bit too readily accepted
    by the general populous?

    What I mean is...if Jack and the Beanstalk...in this light...turns out to be Christian propaganda and makes murder and theft permissible because the victim wasn't Christian, then doesn't the AntiChrist end up being the real hero???




    In several early gnostic Christian gospels (the ones deemed by Rome as "heretic") the creator god who created the world is an evil god (who may delight in wordly suffering)... vestiges are still left in Roman dogma, where a Saint's true birthday is his day of death (birth into heaven) and the flesh and material wants are all sinful... the good "God" in those gospels, did not create earth, but only heaven, as he was all-good and thus would not create a world of evil and sin.

    This philosophy can be traced back to the early Greek traveling Buddhist monks, who in ancient Greek Rome taught the Eastern dogma of "nirvana" as a relief from the material world which is a hellish place of illness and suffering... they also introduced the rosary, chanting, and monasteries to the West...
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    Oct 07, 2011 7:41 AM GMT
    The6Degrees said
    mikey_101 said
    The6Degrees said My question to you is, given the example of Jack and the Giant, applied to Christian eschatology...who's the real bad guy?





    Eschatolgy....Christian Eschatology - as in the apocolyps?

    Not sure where this comes into your question.



    Oh...sorry, I wasn't specific enough. I was trying to insinuate that,
    if the Giant is the "bad guy" in the story,
    then in Christianity the "giant" is Lucifer/Antichrist etc...
    and because the giant in the bible only really comes out swinging at the end, the fall of the bean stock would be comparable to the apocalypse...see?



    btw Lucifer means "light-bearer"... also originally not evil, but good

    Also: "daemon" is ancient greek for "guardian angel" which speaks to us personally through conscience
  • The6Degrees

    Posts: 53

    Oct 08, 2011 11:52 AM GMT
    Green...I know.

    This argument is for those who haven't done their homework. ;)
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 08, 2011 12:15 PM GMT
    Hmmm...there are a lot of different interpretations of this tale, but this is the fist time I've seen it discussed in reference to religion.

    An old Viking tale I think, one that simply reflected the time and place and ethics it came from. Small civilizations were often pillaging each other and taking wealth. You were considered to have great honour if you always put YOUR family first; not another's.

    Take a look at Viking raids; massively successful and often done to others that were rather innocent of any previous wrongdoing against Vikings. icon_wink.gif.
  • stratavos

    Posts: 1831

    Oct 08, 2011 12:57 PM GMT
    Art_Deco saidClassic European fairy tales are surprisingly violent, so much so that I wouldn't tell most of them to my young sons, instead reading to them from things like Sesame Street books. And this modern material had educational & constructive messages.

    As for the Giant in "Jack and the Beanstalk" in European mythology a giant is almost always evil & dangerous. You wouldn't need to make that point in the story. Simply say giant and your readers would instantly understand that creature was bad. And if that wasn't enough, in "Jack" the Giant has the rather hostile lines, which the OP doesn't mention, of:

    Fee-fi-fo-fum!
    I smell the blood of an Englishman?
    Be he 'live, or be he dead,
    I'll grind his bones to make my bread.


    Perhaps this stereotyping of giants goes back to Biblical times, when David slew the Philistine warrior giant who'd been ravaging the Hebrew army. That story sorta made it open season on giants everywhere. Nor do giants fare too well in ancient Greek mythology.

    So that Jack isn't the bad guy, but like David, rather the hero. Because what you do against evil is rarely evil itself, in the Judeo-Christian view, but rather permissible and even commendable.


    So art deco, if someone broke into your house and there were no police, you wouldn't try to intimidate them out of the house so you could continue living?