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I was just wondering who else in here views exercise as being more than just a physical practice? It's been a few days since i've seen anything metaphysical discussed in here lol.

Personally, for me, I look at my workouts and exercise a couple of ways- yes, on the surface, i do it all to look my best, better myself, and enjoy the multitudinous benefits of good health. But even more importantly, I approach it all from mental and spiritual angles. I've spent a lot of time and energy studying the esotericism of the West, and am starting to look at and integrate the mysticism of the East, to give some background on my ideas.

mentally, it allows me to live in the moment, as in yogic practice. concentration on what one's doing, feeling, experiencing- not thinking about the future or the past or of the plethoric distractions that pull us away from ourselves all day long, but simply listening to my body and using the repetition of my actions, the sensations they illicit, the reactions of my body to the stresses put upon it, the manipulation of energies within myself, in order to live wholly in the present, if only briefly. In this way, I can at least partially still my mind, or at least digest everything that's been whirling through my life lately. when i leave the gym, i feel centered and purged and calm with the energy i've raised and channeled.

beyond even this meditative calm that I pursue in the gym, there're spiritual implications and benefits to be had. I see the evolution and bettering of my body as a practice in building and sculpting a temple worthy of the spirit within. 'that which is above is as that which is below, and that which is below is as that which is above, in the creation of the one thing,' says the emerald tablet- its an ancient and cross-cultural acknowledgement that the microcosm and macrocosm (self and universe, ego and divinity, multiplicity and unity) are reflections of each other, ad infinum; that just as a small part of a hologram contains the entire image within itself, so we, being 'created in the image of god,' are not only infinitesimal parts of the universal whole, but are manifestations of that whole in its entirety. the body is a manifestation or crudely magnificent vehicle of the ego or self, which is a lifeless and surreal reflection of the soul, which is in turn everything and nothing- Sat Chit Ananda. what you can access in the deeper parts of your being can be reflected or refracted outward, but equally so, what is done on the surface-most level of your being (if its done with an understanding of what you're doing) can be turned inward and sanctified; used as the tool it truly is. I have a lot more to say on this, but i think this should be enough to generate discussion for now lol.

many become addicted to bettering one's body in order to assuage one's insecurities or to boost confidence or to worship the self- in effect fortifying the ego, and this is to the detriment of the soul underneath, which one is ignoring in favor of an inflated or deflated sense of self. some, alternatively, focus on the pursuit of the divine and let their bodies wither or bloat, as the case may be, having little respect for worldly things and matter. but i think the best thing of all is to marry the two, as its perhaps meant to be- a beautiful union of matter and spirit, connected together at the point of an ego that one recognizes for the illusion it truly is. health and well being should be reflected back and forth between the upper and lower; the inner and outer. I'm just curious what other takes people may have on this, based on varying spiritual backgrounds and beliefs, value systems, personal perspectives, etc.

I'm sorry, my IQ run out half way through the fourth paragraph... can you repost this in a multiple choice format?

Wow well that was very well thought out. But I totally agree with you. Yes I exercise because it does make me look better, but that is just an excellent bi-product. I really exercise for the peace of mind it gives me. If I don't go to Jujitsu, my mind is firing at a mile a minute ,and I talk like 4000 words a second. I am scatter brained and no one can understand me.

However when I train my mind is slowed down and focused like an arrow. I can talk more fluently, my mind can stop and think before I speak. It feels like for once in my life I can slow down. My mind feels calm and my soul feels settled.

I used to have really bad self esteem, and a horrible body image problem and went to the gym all the time because I hated my body, even though I was in great shape. It wasn't until I started to do Jujitsu that my mind fixed itself and for the first time in my life I loved who I was as a person. It changed my life. It healed my soul I guess.

This seems to me to be a pretty solipsistic form of Epicureanism.

You are celebrating self-love, and a particularly elitist form. It seems to depend so much on what the body looks like. But ugly bodies can rescue people from burning buildings. And they can create art, which is something beautiful that is not the self.

Self-respect, self-knowledge, self-actualization. These have been with us since the Greeks.

But I think your self-celebration might be a recipe for loneliness. You are young, but I bet you will come to realize that the measure of a man consists in his
contribution to others.

Hell is other people. But so is Heaven.

Read your Holy Sonnets, young man.

In a nutshell. To look good, to feel
good is not to be good.

Well what I got out of his writing was that it wasn't talking more about right or wrong or morals, he was talking about a sense of self. And from what I got out of it, is that if you see yourself as good you are reflecting your soul which is also good, and you will be a good person...... I don't know I could have misunderstood it, so who knows

Well, what's good seems to consist entirely in the self. But the self is nothing. Does it even exist.

I want to live where verbal diarrhea is less of a problem, where someone's brain fart is not the puddle of runny poop you can almost not help stepping in.

czarodziej saidI was just wondering who else in here views exercise as ...

I didnt want to be the first one to post here cuz I would have gotten HK, elb and the rest of the heavenly choir after me. ...

There is an LOLcat for every occasion!

I dont think there is any self celebration in czarodziej's post. Sounds to me like he is just putting some thoughts on paper and opening it for discussion.

"I was just wondering who else in here views exercise as being more than just a physical practice?"

I for one tend to think way to much when I am at the gym. I am not experiencing it as a yogic practice or meditation of any form. I have a workout buddy; we spend a lot of the time between sets joking and catching up. Undeniably the serotonins are still being produced and I always reap some sort of benefit other than the physical. This post is making me wonder whether I should spend a few hours a week meditating.

Trying to tie this into the metaphysical and the higher powers is way over my head. My ancestors believed that to be happy you must strive to develop natural potential, and that I believe with every cell, muscle or fat, of my body.

So basically he is saying (in a very long winded way full of $5 words) "I work out because its feels good, inside and out". Well, I think we can all agree with that much.

....well I asked him to make it multiple choice, nobody listened

I tried to listen, but my head was swimming and I felt like I was falling from someplace very high.

I think it celebrates:

"I see the evolution and bettering of my body as a practice in building and sculpting a temple worthy of the spirit within."

The point is that the good life is to have a beautiful body. Nothing else is "worthy" of what's within. How you look is how how are.

asupas saidSo basically he is saying (in a very long winded way full of $5 words) "I work out because its feels good, inside and out". Well, I think we can all agree with that much.

I took it a slightly different way, that he works out more than just his body at the same time, and do we do that as well? I actually do that sometimes. I'll either try to figure out a problem I couldn't earlier, or just relax and try to focus all on the movements and a slightly meditative focus on what I'm doing.

The "does anyone fart in the tub/pool" post was bound to be a little more lighthearted... lets just move there, I'll bring the beans.

Do you find the beans a means of perfecting the body for the spirit within or as a means of perfecting the spirit for the body without?

Why is Monday not Tuesday?

palikari saidThe "does anyone fart in the tub/pool" post was bound to be a little more lighthearted... lets just move there, I'll bring the beans.

BRING IT ON!!!!

.....Oh I am sorry. What were you all saying?

NNJfitnbi

The point is that the good life is to have a beautiful body. Nothing else is "worthy" of what's within. How you look is how how are.

It doesnt have to be in absolute terms. Everyone has a different natural potential including that of one's body. I think czarodziej is perhaps tieing in his happier existence with his more highly actualized physical potential.

palikari saidI'm sorry, my IQ run out half way through the fourth paragraph... can you repost this in a multiple choice format?

HAHA! I lol'ed...

asupas saidSo basically he is saying (in a very long winded way full of $5 words) "I work out because its feels good, inside and out". Well, I think we can all agree with that much.

Agreed.

Plus, I do my best thinking when I workout.

The ancient greeks used beans as a vessel to align the physical with the metaphysical and to make the spirit sit on the body within, without creating the microcosms and macrocosms responsible for farts in a tub.

The place where the mind/spirit and the body begin and end isn't so certain, nor sure. Our bodies are such complex and magnificent "machines" that in a way, they should be honored (with a good deal of humor and lack of narcissism).

Exercise helps to restore the equilibrium of life in a world where it is now normal to move but not move (driving a car); where it's normal to sit on one's ass and look at a monitor 8hrs a day; where "to go" and "take out" has become normal; where 60% of Americans are obese; where time is defined less by the limits of the natural world (the sun/moon) and by the (alarm) clock. Of course, there's something a bit neurotic about throwing weights around in a closed space, but best not to focus on that aspect too much!

I've had some of the most important revelations while sweating out at the gym and for me, it helps to keep me balanced and inspired (by others who too respect themselves enough to practice wellness). 2 cents.

caslon said .....Oh I am sorry. What were you all saying?

As much as I love me some LOL cats I have to be an anal retentive ass and ask why a puma would be dining on zebra and gazelle? Shouldn't it be put into geographic context and be something along the lines of mule deer and big horn sheep? This is of course making the assumption that this is supposed to represent a wild animal in its natural habitat and not an escapee from the North American Animals exhibit that found it's way to the African Safari exhibit..........just sayin'

p.s. Sorry to contribute to the further hijacking of the thread.

And by the way, what the hell is the "esotericism of the West"? Esotericism isn't a word anyway, and there is nothing "esoteric" about Western culture. If it applies to any culture, it might (MIGHT) apply to Eastern philosophy.

To put the thread back on track...

I believe that you have discovered for yourself some ancient principles. Ancient Greeks stressed physical, spiritual, and mental fitness in every day life. Plato and Aristotle claimed that through exercising each of these, one would be moving closer and closer to their true form.

Eastern philosophies have also been bound with a tradition of physical training in combination with meditation and philosophy.

You make a valid point that one cannot just exercise the body without exercising the mind, and vice-versa. I concur.

"The point is that the good life is to have a beautiful body. Nothing else is "worthy" of what's within. How you look is how how are." "You are celebrating self-love, and a particularly elitist form. It seems to depend so much on what the body looks like. But ugly bodies can rescue people from burning buildings. And they can create art, which is something beautiful that is not the self."


almost everyone, except most decidedly for NNJfitandbi and jprichva, had valid ideas and input- thanx guys. ok, Caslon didn't either though, just sayin' lol. but then he rarely does :p (cats can only say so much- not particularly known for their linguistic skills, poor things) thanx for the input though everyone- its good to hear that others find peace and mental or spiritual centering from a workout.

NNJ, try re-reading it, and apply some mental effort this time, ok? cause you only read what you wanted to see, and your input only reflects your own neurosis and ignorance.

that said, a lot of what i mentioned does draw from a lot of sources, and i was kind of feeling out who among us here may have similar interests, spiritual inclinations, and favorite reading material... i don't think, for those of you who had trouble with it all, that i could re-word any of it any more concisely... it's admittedly all very abstract and transcends logic a lil bit, and i struggle with some of these concepts too... but to give it another crack:

many schools of mystical thought, both in western esotericism (the occult- theosophy, thaumaturgical beliefs and practices, medieval theology and theurgy, metaphysics, spiritual alchemy, Kabbalah, etc) and in eastern spiritual beliefs, its believed that reality radiates or emanates forth from the subtle and pure to the gross and material, concentrically; but everything is not only connected in this trickle-down chain of unfolding creation- its all made of the same stuff, invested with varying degrees of energy, from the absolute potential of pre-creation, through the pure fire of divinity, down to gross matter. Think of the metaphor of god creating from himself the archangels, who create the hierarchy of angels below them, who create the elemental energies, which condense into matter; or think of the pure energy of the big bang condensing to form light gasses, which over time fuse in stars to forge heavier elements, which comprise current material reality; its much like matter being able to exist as solid, liquid, gas, or plasma, depending on its energetic investment- though in this spiritual context, all exist at once. This can be scientifically echoed in the statement that all energy and matter are one and the same, and that it can't be created or destroyed, only made to change state; also by the quantum physical concept that at the level of the plank scale, in the quantum foam, reality is continually creating and destroying itself; though at varying scales of reality, varying phenomena and entirely different laws altogether hold sway. all of these realities co-exist simultaneously, superimposed. just giving you back ground info thus far on ideas concerning creation from the highest levels of divinity down to material reality. that much said:

the personality (ego) is not who we are or what we are, its simply an intermediary phase of our being in that progression from divine to material- its what neurologically binds our souls to our bodies- a survival tactic created to evade death with a conscious fear of death; something we believe is worth preserving- nothing more. really, its a reflection of both body and soul, and is therefor an illusion- no more 'real' than what it reflects (ok, NNJ was right when he said the ego doesn't exist, i'll concede there). that's why many schools in the east suggest doing away with a personal ego altogether, as do later initiatory stages in western mystery cults and arcane fraternities, as its the source of our 'suffering'- belief, preoccupation, and value in something that doesn't even exist. the body being the outer-most, grossest concretization of the nothingness that essentially comprises us, and the soul being the state of our being closest to that etherial bliss in nothingness, one can view their relationship to each other as upper and lower, or inner and outer, though neither is particularly apt or accurate- merely symbols for understanding. that said, though they can be looked at as separate from each other, there is no difference- all is fundamentally One. therefor, while someone like NNJ who thinks only at a surface level of things may make the leap of 'logic' that a connection is being drawn betwixt having an attractive healthy body and living a good life or being a 'good person' (lol), the fact of the matter is that based on these various schools of thought (which you can research in your own time- message me for suggested readings), the body is a crude manifestation of the soul in a crude and muddied 'reality,' but is nonetheless connected directly to the highest states of being. what you do in the microcosm is reflected in more subtle states, and vice versa, because they're One. its what Jesus meant when he told St. Peter that what he decreed on earth would be so in heaven. its the foundation of all magickal practice too- that not just our bodies, but all of physical reality is a surface level, superficial representation of deeper archetypal concepts in the aether; that what is done below is reflected above, and vice versa.

its at the core of buddhist meditational practices that involve perfect immersion in the present at all times, even or most especially with mundane tasks. doing dishes, gardening, scrubbing floors (or cars- wax on, wax off), can all be elevated to spiritual levels, as even the simplest, most mundane action is intimately connected to divinity. the western schools also say: consider every stimulus, every event, to be a deeply personal interaction of god with your self. an action is only mundane, only worthless, if we let it be so- but if we consciously connect what we're doing to an acknowledgement of our own personal divinity, it becomes a divine act. who here has ever found calm and almost meditational peace and insight while washing a car or weeding a garden or jogging? that's what i meant by my workouts being a divine act for me if i make them so- immersion in the present leaves the ego no place to weave its web- no fantasies of a non-existent future, no musings on an already extinct past- and so leaves one free to focus on the divinity from which we're formed and with which we're invested. exercising the body can be a deeply spiritual practice, as in yoga, or more deeply still, in tantric practice ;) all one has to do is concentrate on the present, on the sensations of the body, of the energies at play within, understanding that the body is in a sense a crystallization of everything and of the soul- and they should come to a deeper understanding of who they are, arriving at insights that don't visit normal thought processes.

This is the most mind-numbing hogwash.

czarodziej saidI was just wondering who else in here views exercise as being more than just a physical practice? It's been a few days since i've seen anything metaphysical discussed in here lol.

Personally, for me, I look at my workouts and exercise a couple of ways- yes, on the surface, i do it all to look my best, better myself, and enjoy the multitudinous benefits of good health. But even more importantly, I approach it all from mental and spiritual angles. I've spent a lot of time and energy studying the esotericism of the West, and am starting to look at and integrate the mysticism of the East, to give some background on my ideas.

mentally, it allows me to live in the moment, as in yogic practice. concentration on what one's doing, feeling, experiencing- not thinking about the future or the past or of the plethoric distractions that pull us away from ourselves all day long, but simply listening to my body and using the repetition of my actions, the sensations they illicit, the reactions of my body to the stresses put upon it, the manipulation of energies within myself, in order to live wholly in the present, if only briefly. In this way, I can at least partially still my mind, or at least digest everything that's been whirling through my life lately. when i leave the gym, i feel centered and purged and calm with the energy i've raised and channeled.

beyond even this meditative calm that I pursue in the gym, there're spiritual implications and benefits to be had. I see the evolution and bettering of my body as a practice in building and sculpting a temple worthy of the spirit within. 'that which is above is as that which is below, and that which is below is as that which is above, in the creation of the one thing,' says the emerald tablet- its an ancient and cross-cultural acknowledgement that the microcosm and macrocosm (self and universe, ego and divinity, multiplicity and unity) are reflections of each other, ad infinum; that just as a small part of a hologram contains the entire image within itself, so we, being 'created in the image of god,' are not only infinitesimal parts of the universal whole, but are manifestations of that whole in its entirety. the body is a manifestation or crudely magnificent vehicle of the ego or self, which is a lifeless and surreal reflection of the soul, which is in turn everything and nothing- Sat Chit Ananda. what you can access in the deeper parts of your being can be reflected or refracted outward, but equally so, what is done on the surface-most level of your being (if its done with an understanding of what you're doing) can be turned inward and sanctified; used as the tool it truly is. I have a lot more to say on this, but i think this should be enough to generate discussion for now lol.

many become addicted to bettering one's body in order to assuage one's insecurities or to boost confidence or to worship the self- in effect fortifying the ego, and this is to the detriment of the soul underneath, which one is ignoring in favor of an inflated or deflated sense of self. some, alternatively, focus on the pursuit of the divine and let their bodies wither or bloat, as the case may be, having little respect for worldly things and matter. but i think the best thing of all is to marry the two, as its perhaps meant to be- a beautiful union of matter and spirit, connected together at the point of an ego that one recognizes for the illusion it truly is. health and well being should be reflected back and forth between the upper and lower; the inner and outer. I'm just curious what other takes people may have on this, based on varying spiritual backgrounds and beliefs, value systems, personal perspectives, etc.

OH, I think I'm in love...can we go to acupuncture for a first date?

Ha. And I tried to take this seriously. Fuck me.

czarodziej said"The point is that the good life is to have a beautiful body. Nothing else is "worthy" of what's within. How you look is how how are." "You are celebrating self-love, and a particularly elitist form. It seems to depend so much on what the body looks like. But ugly bodies can rescue people from burning buildings. And they can create art, which is something beautiful that is not the self."
almost everyone, except most decidedly for NNJfitandbi and jprichva, had valid ideas and input- thanx guys. ok, Caslon didn't either though, just sayin' lol. but then he rarely does :p (cats can only say so much- not particularly known for their linguistic skills, poor things)................
..........................................

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
*Snarf - I'm awake, I'm awake...

lol alright alright, thinking time is over, you can go back to your pop culture forum topics now :p yeesh. hope you didn't hurt yourselves...

Attaching anything you think you're made of to part of your fitness might make you a bit of a vain person in my opinion. I don't think that the soul dwells in the body. It is more in the etheric realms which manifest into your daily reality of thougts, perceptions, feelings and any transformative act must first occur there. Part of me wanted to apply some sort of habit here except now that I reflect on it more, a more spontateous idea of who,what,when you are comes to mind.

that's true, your soul manifests through your subconscious, which manifests through the conscious ego, which manifests as quantifiable brain waves and neural-chemical impulses and firings in your head. but these are part of your body. i think its a bit spiritually.. naive(?)... to separate the body from the spiritual. the indians have complex ideas concerning the chakra systems of subtle energy or prana that flow through the body; maintaining, regulating, and manifesting it. similarly, the chinese, with their practices of acupuncture, have charted energy flow through the body, and have theoretically 'pinpointed' (ok, pun intended lol) the nodes and vortexes of spirit, or chi, in the parts of the body. judeo-christian Kabbalists have likewise overlaid their tree of life diagram over the body and made deep insights from the positioning of its sephiroth in the form and figure of the human body. belief of the spirit being housed in the body is more common around the globe than otherwise... though what i'm suggesting here goes a step beyond simply that....

yes, i think the spirit is intimately connected to the body, after a fashion, but i don't think its 'inside' the body like one russian egg doll inside another, or like a bird in a cage. its more abstract than that, and more blurry- the idea is much closer to theories and concepts that declare everything to be One... that all division and multiplicity, time and space, are illusionary constructs (this is a modern, scientific, mathematically defendable claim as much as it's spiritual theory) . your soul is in your body, and its everywhere, and its nowhere. more truly: your body and your soul are the same thing- just as your body is its organs, and its tissues, and its cells, and its cellular organelles, and its molecules, and its atoms, and its quarks, and much smaller stuff besides- considering also that everything we consider matter is more empty space than solid- and knowing that matter IS energy based on Einstein's math, as is space- its safe to say that you can no more separate the subtle from the gross as you can separate what makes a flower beautiful and poetic from the fleshy, ephemeral, easily rotted material its made of.

that said, it simply follows that if the body and soul are more than merely intimately connected in a symbiotic relationship, it behooves one to treat the body with the same respect that one should treat the deeper stuff they're comprised of. because one is made of matter AND energy, physic AND metaphysic- it makes little sense to expect anything done to one not to affect the other, as with any two aspects of one closely integrated system.

your point is interesting though, and i of course am not saying its 'wrong,' since none of this is quantifiable... just disagreeing from my perspective.

Ok, my work is done here...

God, what bitches.

Western Esotericism is common enough that Wiki profiles it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_mystery_tradition

and here:

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Esotericism_%28academia%29[/url]

Czar: The current issue of the Shambhala Sun is devoted to the subject of the body, particularly in considering yogic practice as related to meditative practice. (It's not uploaded to its site yet.)

I totally agree with your observation of the (potential) meditative value of exercise -- lifting as zen. However, I would take issue with several of your moves as I understand them. More mental meandering:

You conflate the concepts of soul and spirit. There's not space here to go into the problems that presents. They are not the same thing.

You seem to be investing certain spiritual traditions with an emphasis, as NNJ was noting (I think), on perfecting oneself, or the body. This is not really the goal of most eastern practices. There is no "goal" -- just the process of awakening and mindfulness. Every body is "perfect" as it is. Remember: "enlightenment" is the glimpse of "nothingness."

The effort to perfect the body in some way is antithetical to mindfulness. You can lift mindfully, genuinely bringing awareness to the body, or you can lift to armor the body. You can lift to become beautiful -- we all try -- but that's like beautifying the corpse.

The notion that the soul (or spirit, for that matter) is interiorized is not useful. (In what part of your body is your soul?) Freud observed that the body IS the unconscious (the "psyche," soul). The body directly expresses the unconscious and soul, which is simply the cluster of unique qualities of an individual. Beauty to the Greeks was that which causes us to stop in our tracks, not what is necessarily pretty or idealized, young,decorated or otherwise perfected.

There is a lot of writing, much of it coming out of phenomenology, about the importance of the appearance of things in the world. There's the work of Gaston Bachelard, whose work has influenced me hugely, and Ronald Schenk, a Jungian. But there is also the work of Elaine Scary, whose books "The Body in Pain" and "On Beauty and Being" examine the question of ethics' relationship to beauty. (Scary has made it okay to think about the subject again.)

You might want to read Rilke. You mentioned angels, normally conceptualized as perfections of the human form. But Rilke made the observation that "every angel is terrible":

"Who, if I screamed, would hear me in the ranks of the angels?
And even if one of them took me suddenly to her heart:
I would wither away from her stronger being. For beauty
Is nothing but the onset of the terrible, which we barely endure
And we admire it so, because it cooly disdains
To destroy us. Every angel is terrible."

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." [Hamlet]

I fear, czarodziej, that we stand on the opposing sides of a canyon. On my side, at least, there is no soul, and things are moved by forces (of which there are four) and not angels. Energy is a highly technical and abstract concept; it is not a susbstitute for mass (rather the statement that mass is equivalent to energy rather elevates mass to the same level of abstraction!). People are told in introductory physics classes, or in popular science books that particles are constantly being created and annhilated in the vacuum, but the reality is so much more complex than this. In fact, it has more to do with the curious 'path-integral' approach to quantum mechanics which says that to find the probability of a particle getting from A to B, you have to sum over all possible paths, and luckily the sums are tractibe (using Feynman diagrams). The Klein-Gordon equation allows what we call 'negative-energy' (I caution you against reading anything into that) solutions and these have an effect on the sort of things you have to let into the Feynman diagrams. There is no metaphysical conclusion to be drawn from all this.... energy is nothing more than the bean-counting mechanism of physics. And yet the results are profound, revelatory and confounding. Would that I understood a thousandth of them!

To answer your question on the spiritual nature of exercise, I, like all scientists, am a rationalist in theory (and must be if I wish to claim something) but day-to-day I do not work in a tortuously rationalistic manner. I work out because it keeps me fit, and I find that being fit is a key to good work. Research is a highly creative endeavour, and creativity is not something that can be bottled or bought and nor can it be directed like a hosepipe at one problem at a time. I paint, I photograph, I write... these seem to help my creativity and act as an outlet for emotions, and as an opportunity for me to explore things in an intuitive way. My research proceeds by impulse---an idea how to proceed---followed by rigourous checking both mathematical and experimental. This is my "spiritual" life and it is an important part of who I am and what I do.

I am quite sure you are content with your worldview, and I do not want to try to impose mine upon you, but you said that "someone like NNJ who thinks only at a surface level of things". I must disagree. My worldview is far from a surface level. Have you seen the images of the pillars of gas in the Eagle Nebula? or of the surface of Titan? Have you seen visualizations of particle decay in bubble chambers? Have you seen electron microscope images of the scales of butterfly wings revealing natural photonic crystals? Did you know you can get bucky balls to make a diffraction pattern in a Young's double slit experiment?

I could go on..... but perhaps you see that to reject the supernatural is not a surface view:

"To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour." [William Blake]

I am often amazed, far from science unweaving the rainbow, that most people never realised that you can see three concentric rainbows (the others are faint) because they have never been shown how to look for them.

I am going to DDOS the bloody lolcatz site ;-)

The eternal LOLcat:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/1986231/Dead-cat-transformed-into-black-diamond-ring.html

obscenewish, thank god, finally someone equipped to be able to discuss it. good points, all of them. allow me to briefly clarify the couple of points that you point to in what i've said as contendable- i agree completely with everything you've said, and don't think what i've written truly contradicts you.

soul and spirit are of course separate- if you want to get nitpicky, the kabbalists divide up the subtle body into several components, most often corresponding to the four formative worlds and the letters of the tetragrammaton- the egyptians describe a ba and a ka- in fact most traditions and teachings would argue that its not as simple as 'physical body and spiritual being,' in a duality sort of situation... that the differences betwixt aspects of your divine self actually are and consist of depends on the perspective of what tradition/belief system you're looking at it from... but i DO agree that regardless, i shouldn't have been so careless with those two words, soul and spirit. i figured it was safe to water down and simplify things a lil bit in here, or it would have been TRULY confusing to most lol.

yes, i am introducing the idea that along with the inherent values of exercise, the simple bettering of the body can have spiritual implications if you let it. but i'd say this is a combination of my own ideas, and more western mystical traditions. i never said it was particularly eastern. from the beginning, i cautioned that my understanding of these things is pretty eclectic, taking from both west and east. so if something i say grates with eastern thought, its because im not really resigned to eastern thought as a whole. i know that mindfulness and enlightenment have absolutely nothing to do with building a better body for oneself, but from my (much more deeply explored) western perspective, the bettering of anything is a co-participation with divinity in creative action, re-instating the klipotic fragments of ruined creation after the fall to their divine positions on the tree of life. everything is still being created- the process didn't just happen and stop- we're still in the middle of it... and conscious evolution toward ever more perfect forms is something i like the idea of, while also knowing that time and linear progress are illusions and all is ever-now... its a bit of a paradox i know, but the best things usually are ;)

finally, i said that the soul is in the body after a fashion, but its everywhere else as well, as well as 'nowhere.' i'm not 'interiorizing the soul,' so much as trying to express my belief that it is intimately connected to the body while we live. aum mani padme hum.

thanx again for the insight- and the link on western esotericism was a welcome contribution

obscenewish said Western Esotericism is common enough that Wiki profiles it:

Well, live and learn. I do stand corrected.

No wonder I wasn't aware of it, it covers all manner of things I have spent a lifetime ignoring.

Czaro, I have only finished reading your earlier posts but what you have written so far has already led me to consider life past the four dimensions I am so accustomed to. In regards to your original question, I consider working out primarily a physical practice but I do also consider it as a way to channel my frustrations or anxieties -- to be useful in finishing that extra rep for example. And in doing so, it does help clear my mind for a while. However that is close to the extend of which I perceive the activity to be past the physical layer.

I have enjoyed reading what you have written as it provides a rare opportunity to sit here and just envision your ideas such as the possibilities of bridging the seen with the unseen, merging the uncertain with the known, and perhaps experiencing such a union on as many planes out as possible. I have always had a logical and literal thought process, rarely dealing with anything in the abstract sort and so I really had to stop and think about your concepts.

As for health and well being between the body and soul, I believe the optimal state of human operation depends equally among the two, and that failure of one results in failure of all. Putting this in a concrete example: the best possible body and worst of heart versus the most beautiful mind contained in a neglected body and finally the good Samaritan in a physically attractive body. Basically, I believe the body and soul both need attention and caring. All too often we become focused on looks and in turn lose focus on another important component of ourselves. But this is done out of instinct and intuitive investment of our limited time and resources to maximize returns. After all, one certainly will get greater positive attention if he diverts all his available time and energy towards looking better physically because (1) we humans are a very visual-based being and so (2) showing a picture of a stunning body will automatically return a positive rating of the individual. It is considerably more difficult to "show" someone that you have a good heart -- as such is dependent on time among other factors. And yet hopefully I am not the sole occupant of the side that finds a good mind to be important, and more so a critical component of the guy I would like to spend my time with.

To get a good body, one simply needs to adhere to a very easy regimen of working out appropriately, coupled with a good diet and rest. Then you will see your dividends pay out over time. It is much more difficult to get a good "mind" so to speak. I am not referring to being intellectual, or outright compassionate or anything else down a specific pathway. But "good" does mean having common sense, decent manners, and the other basic yet important qualities that make up a person that we envision to be our counterpart.

Czar: I don't think it's any accident that the "fusion spirituality" that's come to be called "New Age" or "New Thought" reflects a deeply capitalistic ethic. It's all about the individual's improvement and the productivity of his life. Eastern spiritual paths are much more about communitarian development, but in their appropriation by the New Age, they have become tools of personal growth. I just don't think that's the point of most spiritual traditions.

What I find most troubling in all discussions of spiritual pursuits in these forums, as I wrote NNJ, is the gross literalization. It is perfectly possible to pursue a spiritual path without subscribing to a belief in the supernatural or without regarding visionary states as something other than states of imagination. Were this not so, scientists and the Dalai Lama would probably not be engaged in mutual research.

Tim describes what most of the spiritual traditions have in common: play with images. He writes, takes pictures, paints and waxes poetic about images from, basically, worlds that are invisible to ordinary vision. You can argue all day about the importance of empirical content, but he's talking about awe and mystery -- precisely the states aroused by the spiritual imagination. I think, as brain science seems to be verifying, that there is a natural drive in the human being to experience the transcendental and this is most often achieved through aesthetic praxis.

Religion's literalization of a deity and an afterlife populated with angels enforcing arbitrary moral laws is fundamentalism, which is a failure of the imagination. But this is not the rule of all spiritual paths.

TigerTim :p great input- see this was what i was hoping for- intelligent and stimulatingly differing opinion. i agree with you as well, more/less, though i don't see the need for such a strict divorce of the scientific with the metaphysic. it was only recently in the tens of thousands of years of our existence as humans- a couple hundred years ago- that we started to completely divorce science, magick, religion, and spirituality from each other. beforehand, they were all parts of one integrated whole. i think this is to the detriment of both spirituality and science, as spirituality usually lacks logic and practicality, while science often seems dead, unable to explain anything of true value (terribly practical/useful, and wonderfully interesting, but it not only ignores the mysteries of what we are... it seeks to confound that mystery and profane it, more often than not, reducing us to the status of worthless, albeit very intricate and fascinating, machines). Einstein said that science without god is dead- what he meant, i think, was that science must pursue its logical theories to logical conclusions in the heightened mindset of exploring this manifestation of divinity we call reality. i think science is currently taking baby steps in the right direction, with quantum physics, which has turned much empirical science on its head regarding our understanding of the universe, but it has a ways to go. spirituality, on the other hand, is best when enjoined with a scientific approach- as in western esotericism (spiritual alchemy, anyone?). interestingly enough, the perceived divide discussed in this forum between body and divinity, which doesn't even exist at all, is echoed in the perceived divide between science and metaphysics. neither can be whole without the other.

i don't think you're rejecting the metaphysical, though you think you are. your poeticism in describing the mysteries that your more strictly scientific approach allows gives you away. you're a mystic at heart, despite being understandably enamored with the marvels of modern science :p science is what has already been explained- what hasn't yet, is commonly held to be within the realm of the 'supernatural,' though i don't like this term because eventually everything may be understood, and therefor there truly is no 'supernatural.' everything is 'natural.' what i'm talking about here isn't the supernatural, so much as the metaphysical, which is entirely different. it has to do with the same sorts of things as empirical science, that is, understanding the workings of the universe and of ourselves in that universe- but to the constant confounding of empirical scientists, one can only arrive at metaphysical understanding through gnosis- from within. this is because it transcends logic and reason in many instances, and must necessarily- logic and reason are fallible. read any Aristotelian dialogue and you'll see how even the most logical statements and arguments can be easily turned on their head with counter-logic. the approach to that gnostic illumination or obtaining of understanding often follows pseudo-scientific approaches, and eerily enough, what has been postulated in metaphysics for thousands of years is currently being mathematically postulated as 'new theories' in modern science. the two mirror each other, as exactly as the body mirrors the soul- though in the same sense, not at all literally. the big bang, the shape of the universe, the interconnectedness of everything through quantum entanglement, the malleability of reality to consciousness... both are explained with similar but different symbol sets by scientists and mystics and magicians. "There is no metaphysical conclusion to be drawn from all this.... energy is nothing more than the bean-counting mechanism of physics. And yet the results are profound, revelatory and confounding." i don't agree with your views of energy being merely units of measurement... but despite not thinking there are metaphysical conclusions to be drawn- i'd at least say the mundanity mirrors the arcanum of that deeper and more mysterious level of reality.

I hate to chime in on discussions of esoteric knowledge because so much of what gets written about it makes you sound like a fool, in my opinion.

OW's point about literalization is an excellent one. And it is perhaps fairer to you in that it shows you what I was trying to show you while accepting the premise of your argument.

As for the Kabbalah, it is not meant to be studied by those under 40. (Not by women or unmarried men either, according to the geniuses who wrote it and the teachers today who truly understand it.) Perhaps, in part, because the body has to begin to fail before the mysteries of the body as the manifestation of the divine blah blah blah can be fully understood. Perhaps because the point isn't about the body at all. Literalization.

I find it very difficult to engage in a bona fide discussion about mysticism when it is being used to justify working out. It's just hard to take seriously. And I say this with full appreciation of the benefits of exercise. (I like the discussion of mindfulness above and Czar's recognition of yoga as a spiritual practice.)

This is theodicy of a strange sort. The God here is the beautiful body, and a claim is being made to that the pursuit of a beautiful body is noble, if done "with an understanding of what you're doing." This is a distinction without a difference. And it is contrary to the Western idea that the divine is best understood through suffering -- i.e., fasting, wearing hairshirts, being burned at the stake, auto da fe, etc. ;) No, I'm making a serious point. The fast of Yom Kippur. Lent. These are the exertions that are meant to show Westerners something of the divine. They are about moritification of flesh.

The exertions at the gym are not moral exertions. The body is a gift on loan, according to the tradition.

Whether you believe in a soul or not, I thought I would bring in some historical perspective to at least the the western concepts of soul with relation to Judaism and Christianity.

The two languages (Hebrew/Greek) of course reflect different viewpoints. That is in Hebrew in many cases you did not contain a soul but were a soul, and a soul could also die (not immortal). There are several different Hebrew words for "soul". Of course it is more complicated than that but you can just say that there were many different views. I think that the two ideas were fused a little bit especially with the Greek translation of the Hebrew bible (the Septuagint http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint ) that predated Christianity.

And if you think that is complicated, look into the Hindu and Buddhist thoughts on it. There are sections in this link for different "religious" notions of it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul

I could probably write a lot more on the original topic but am still reading all the lengthy postings .. umm, embrace emptiness .. use less words lol

Just read this (fabulously weird) book:



From Library Journal
Moore (Poststructrualism and the New Testament, Fortress, 1995) explores torture, dissection, and male physique. Unlike Howard Eilberg-Schwartz in God's Phallus (LJ 8/94), which focused on the known and unknown features of God, Moore states, "You too can have a body like his, if only you are willing to pay the price." Moore begins by graphically examining torture and the transformation torture can produce. "Dissection," his second essay, looks at the anatomy of the Fourth Gospel and an autopsy of Jesus Christ, i.e., Bible study. The last essay looks at Jesus' bodybuilding career and his workout routine. What ties these essays together are the subjection and control found in the Bible.

http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Gym-Divine-Bodies-Bible/dp/0415917573/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_a

NNJ- point of interest: the western obsession with corporal suffering as a spiritual virtue is a perversion of the church, and nothing more. entire books could be (and have been) written about this, but until you have studied the deeper mysticism of the western traditions, especially those predating or running parallel to christianity (rosicrucianism, for instance), it'd be difficult for you to pass such a judgement.

suffering has been valued to a small degree in earlier (egyptian, for example) instances, but the underlying idea there was more about sacrifice than about self-punishment. THAT which you mention is a perversion wherever it turns up, and is the kind of unhealthy disfavoring of the body in favor of the spirit and soul that i mentioned earlier. its driven by an insecurity, an inadequacy, cultivated by politicized organized religions to cull the masses with a burden of 'original sin,' for which we must punish ourselves in abasement. that kind of groveling and sniveling approach to god is absolutely abhorrent to the spiritually healthy and sane individual.

as far as the hebrew rule of thumb concerning age 40 and the kabbalah goes- it doesn't interest me. most rules don't. most are set so that control can be exerted by a select few over the masses. nothing more. just had to get that off my chest lol

:p

TigerTim said My worldview is far from a surface level. Have you seen the images of the pillars of gas in the Eagle Nebula? or of the surface of Titan? Have you seen visualizations of particle decay in bubble chambers? Have you seen electron microscope images of the scales of butterfly wings revealing natural photonic crystals? Did you know you can get bucky balls to make a diffraction pattern in a Young's double slit experiment?

I could go on..... but perhaps you see that to reject the supernatural is not a surface view:

You forgot one of my favorites .. the cosmic (sloan) great wall .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloan_Great_Wall is simply mind boggling in size. But yes I love scientific imagery too and can find it awe inspiring.

There is an interesting irony though in the way you phrased "Have you seen ..etc" That same technique is used in the Hebrew [Bible] Book of Job. In it God asks Job mind boggling questions (I guess for back then) like .. Do you know how I bind the constellations Pleiades and Orion? Do you know how I draw a path for lightning to the place it strikes? Do you know how I diffuse light in the heavens? Also questions about animals and cycles of nature are thrown in. Finally Job receives enlightenment (after pondering the nature of his own consuming suffering) and says "I don't really even know what I am talking about, There are things that are too great for me to know!"

SO You and the Bible posed a kind of "KOAN." The reason why I correlate the two has to do with the goal of some eastern practices to achieve enlightenment outside of knowing and "reason" (zen/chan/taoist meditation) and instead embracing stillness and emptiness. Zen KOANs are utterances that are supposed to "throw" the mind into a state beyond reason which is considered a more direct experience of reality beyond abstraction. Also like you mention, there are other meaningful perceptions outside of reason that lie in emotion, beauty, wonder, and ecstatic states of mind.

So Job had created for himself a limited perspective based on his own suffering and knowledge, but a different kind of wisdom as revealed to him in his baffled humble state of mind. This is similar to the Taoist Wu wei and "Knowing Not Knowing" (I just found out my wu wei link was broken but I fixed it!)

AN interesting book Understanding Zen (Benjamin Radcliff) is written for westerners and uses things like Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, and Godel's Theorem like a KOAN to release the mind from the constraints of rationality. He also quotes one of your favorites, William Blake, saying

"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thru' narrow chinks of his cavern."

Sometimes we can be trapped by our own Reason and Logic.
Interesting.

this point on the KOAN is fascinating- you should look into reading Alister Crowley's, the Book of Lies. it similarly seeks to unhinge one's grasp on logic and reason so that on can transcend the two, realizing just how tenuous truth and falsehood really are- how ephemeral and utterly unreal.

I want to believe there is a spirit I can uplift. To have a purpose greater than this skin would fill my--soul--to a frothing head.

But, perhaps admitting sadly that my workouts to improve my body are about sex, and the pleasured cocktails my body provides me when I'm driven to sex and to workout, I regret that I cannot elevate this discussion above the bellowing of the beasts.

I suspect, Czaro, with your perfect abs and model's face, that you've striven to give your life more meaning. I have to admit that I don't know if you'll find it, but I suspect it will probably come in the form of a dopamine cascade on your limbic system.

czarodziej saidthis point on the KOAN is fascinating- ... realizing just how tenuous truth and falsehood really are- ...

Yes, moving beyond dualism could be described as a direction of Zen. Of course being without or beyond words means that ironically the description of a "Zen state" is itself an abstraction and is limited, and not the "thing itself"

It reminds me of a Zen Center I once visited. The teacher giving a rudimentary talk on KOANs mentioned "We know the sound of two hands clapping; but what is the sound of one hand clapping?"
A woman in class thought about it and said out loud, "well what is the answer?"
He looked at her and made a knocking motion with his fist towards her forehead and said, "knock, knock"

very interesting....

caslon saidvery interesting....

Very very interesting indeed Maybe there is an OhmCat

as far as words go, i have a deep distrust for them, despite loving them at the same time. they're actually pretty worthless in any sense beyond the physical survival of the race. a word can never describe what it names, only label it- and descriptions being bundles of words designed to label other things, they can never accurately describe one thing in particular- they circumlocute and dance around the thing, which itself doesn't exist except for as an arguably objective manifestation of a deeper idea. sure, words seem great and accurate 'enough,' until you look more closely- then they all fall apart like quantum particles into psi waves lol. take for example 'blue.' imagine describing it to a blind man- you could talk about electromagnetic waves and radiation, energy levels, wavelengths, or you could talk about how it tends to sooth, unlike stimulating red; but none of this means anything to the blind man. all words are much the same- they can evoke in others recognition of a similar thing, based on very different memories and associations, but take away the assumption that they have familiarity with what you describe, and your left with babble. this is why religions are formed from the stuff of parables, metaphors, stories, and complex symbol systems; the ascended masters who founded them experienced something (whether on a mountain, or in a forest, or in a cave, or under a tree) away from and above normal human experience... then found that there was no way to accurately describe it to others- so they clothed their understanding in circumlocution and handed it to their followers, who misunderstood it as the Truth itself (it was always ever meant to be a map to getting to the same experience for oneself, since those things simply can't be 'told.' but people would rather worship the master instead of seek the same enlightenment as he intends). thus fundamentalism is born. words are dangerous, most especially when spiritual value is attached to them. there's a lot of wisdom in the east concerning their most appropriate use in describing things like deity: like keeping your mouth shut ;)

and mickey- thanx for the half a compliment... but beyond that, speak for yourself, m'kay?

I'm hurt. It was a full-on compliment.

But, considering all of your metaphysical ponderings, I'm not surprised you'd dismiss the thrust of my post. Too simple for you?

LOL RBY, I too noticed that it was a cougar and not a lioness. Reminds me of the geographically impossible menagerie in the island in 'Swiss Family Robinson'.

On topic:

While I don't believe in a 'spirit' or a 'soul', I do believe in consciousness. And yes, I agree, gaining a sort of balance of the mind and body enriches you as a whole.

Physical exercise for me sometimes is a sort of meditation. In brief flashes, never really for long, I experience that single minded focus on one thing and one thing only. But then again, I also experience that just sitting in front of a desk doodling something intricate. The kind where the whole world disappears and you are only aware of yourself and what your mind is on. When I come to, it's like waking up from being unconscious/asleep.

Yes, it's refreshing.

But no, I don't connect anything spiritual or esoteric in it. LOL I think of the body as a computer. The conscious mind is the running programs while the subconscious are the background applications. Nothing really esoteric about that.

As for esoteric... um... interpretations of physical effort try the dervishes of Turkey, martial arts of course, Taichi, Yoga, psychosomatic control, and torture. LOL

Don't get me wrong, I do not reject the 'supernatural' experience, I reject the supernatural interpretation. The problem with 'spirituality' is that it tries to quantify the unexplainable in ways much cruder than science. Chakras, energy, soul, enlightenment... these are all attempts at naming the nameless with pitifully inaccurate words.

Hence why I view 'new age' views as absurd. It is distorted by meaningless words, catchphrases, symbols, and trinkets. It's 99% literalist bullshit. And as OW pointed out, unscrupolously capitalistic especially (but not exclusively) in the self-centered western mindset.

For example, Buddha. Note how the original idea was simply transcendence - freeing the mind. Yet people now build daibutsus and venerate it as if that was the entire point of Siddharta shunning his noble lineage for a life of wandering.

Another is meditation itself. The Buddhist chant - "Om Mane Padme Hom" (Hail to the Jewel in the Lotus) is uttered like a magical formula. Especially by westerners trying to get into the eastern disciplines. What the heck? Do they even realize that it's simply the hypnotic repetition and not the words itself that matters? They could be saying a stream of swearwords and its effect would still be the same.

Replace the esoteric terms in the Tripitaka with common everyday words for example and you'll get a perfectly practical philosophy and discipline, not a religion.

So no. I view supernatural interpretations as hogwash. Give me a really beautiful sunset and I'll probably be moved beyond words, but please don't tell me it's God showing me his face. Give me a really good massage and I'll probably feel a whole lot better, but please don't tell me it was because my chakra points were poked and they fixed the energy flux in my body. Give me a really good piece of art or literature and it will probably touch some part of me, but please don't tell me it's my soul reaching out or anything like that.

I can see beauty, no problem, I'm an artist ferchrissakes. I can appreciate the depth of the conscious and subconscious mind. I can feel wonder at the entirety of the universe. But I don't believe in the human attempts of simply attributing it to the supernatural. I don't believe everything can be explained rationally (at least not yet), and while we can't, should we confuse ourselves further by pinning on some mystical interpretations to everything unexplainable? It's unexplainable - that's the point. Science can't lead you there YET, so patience please. While religion/spirituality/mysticism has its merits especially in exercising the mind, it's been clouded in most cases with hundreds of years of bullshit.

The 'divine' is simply the unknown, and the list of unknowns are getting smaller everyday.

P.S. obscenewish, that poem was beautiful! Perfection/The Absolute really is terrible.

mickeytopogigio saidI'm hurt. It was a full-on compliment.
But, considering all of your metaphysical ponderings, I'm not surprised you'd dismiss the thrust of my post. Too simple for you?

I love it when they rub their abs against one another the wrong way.

SedativeP.S. obscenewish, that poem was beautiful! Perfection/The Absolute really is terrible.

Those are just the opening lines of the first of Rilke's Duino Elegies, Sedative.

Good post. Some responses:

"Physical exercise for me sometimes is a sort of meditation. In brief flashes, never really for long, I experience that single minded focus on one thing and one thing only. But then again, I also experience that just sitting in front of a desk doodling something intricate. The kind where the whole world disappears and you are only aware of yourself and what your mind is on. When I come to, it's like waking up from being unconscious/asleep."
That's not the same thing at all. Meditation, ideally, is a state of full awareness of everything around you. It's not disassociation.

The potential meditative quality of doodling and physical exercise would only be strictly similar if you brought your awareness to your hand.

When Freud said the body is the unconscious he meant that we can observe its workings in the body. This is especially true of the emotions, which are physical expressions. I frequently have clients who are disassociated from their own bodies and getting them to "scan" the body with awareness almost always helps them see what's going on with them.

Of course, many gay men are disassociated from their bodies because our sexual appetite is demonized. I think the obsession with gyms has as much to do with developing "body sense" as with looking good or improving health.

"But no, I don't connect anything spiritual or esoteric in it. LOL I think of the body as a computer. The conscious mind is the running programs while the subconscious are the background applications. Nothing really esoteric about that."

This mechanistic view of the body/mind is pretty archaic. I urge you to research it.

"Don't get me wrong, I do not reject the 'supernatural' experience, I reject the supernatural interpretation. The problem with 'spirituality' is that it tries to quantify the unexplainable in ways much cruder than science. Chakras, energy, soul, enlightenment... these are all attempts at naming the nameless with pitifully inaccurate words."

Well, you could say the same about most poetry, couldn't you? It engages in symbolization, metaphor, all kinds of verbal games. It describes a tree as the poet experiences it, not in the way science describes it.

Systems like the chakras, although trivialized by the New Age, are alternative maps of consciousness. Their value is that they root consciousness in the body. This does not mean you have to take them literally or subscribe to something supernatural.

I've made the point here before that the Greeks came to believe that the earth revolves around the sun, but they also expressed the sun's "movement" as Apollo in his chariot. One is a scientific approach. The other evokes a god and metaphor for the purpose of expressing felt experience. They aren't incompatible.

A final,related point: You say you reject the supernatural explanation but believe in the operations of the conscious and subconscious.

What is the difference? The unconscious is not even taught as anything but a historical artifact in many professional schools of psychology. They reject the concept altogether.

But it is a useful metaphor.

"with your perfect abs and model's face"

HAHAHAHAHA!

Hehe, downloading Rilke...

obscenewishThat's not the same thing at all. Meditation, ideally, is a state of full awareness of everything around you. It's not disassociation.

Hm. I've always interpreted meditation as as controlling the focus of the mind. That is - the total ability to steer which way your thoughts go.

No I don't mean dissociation, I meant focusing on only one task - the body movements or in case of art, the picture I am drawing. I wiki'd it to be sure, and i think what I was referring to is concentration meditation.

Nevertheless, I am NOT qualified LOL. I have tried meditation before and I was too much of an impatient teen for it to amount to much, but yeah, the book I had (forgot the title) basically treats meditation as a mental exercise on focus. Exercises like examining an object for hours for instance.

Well, you could say the same about most poetry, couldn't you? It engages in symbolization, metaphor, all kinds of verbal games. It describes a tree as the poet experiences it, not in the way science describes it.

Systems like the chakras, although trivialized by the New Age, are alternative maps of consciousness. Their value is that they root consciousness in the body. This does not mean you have to take them literally or subscribe to something supernatural.

See, the problem is literally interpreting it as a lot of people do. I love mythology. The way greeks personified nature and human emotions is very poetic. In a way, it's an art form, and yet when people take it further and it becomes a law, a system, a code, it starts to take on a much more malevolent form.

For example the personification of all women in hinduism - Devi, Shiva's consort. She is simply a poetic rendition of women's nature, with her various facets - Durga, the fierceness; Parvati, the mother; Lalita, sensuality etc. One of her facets represent the fearful rage and power of women (and also represents time and change) - Kali, the dark one.

It's poetic and beautiful, but look at what happens when it moved from being art to creed. The Thuggees, where the English word 'Thug' came from, who killed random travelers to honor Kali.

That is where I draw the line. It is art that measures unquantifiable things like emotions, NOT religion.

A final,related point: You say you reject the supernatural explanation but believe in the operations of the conscious and subconscious.

LOL I am not a psychologist so I really don't know. Is the subconscious and the unconscious considered supernatural then? To me, again referring to a mechanistic view (which I'm trying to research atm LOL), the unconscious, the subconscious, and consciousness are simply the brain 'multitasking' parts of itself.

And related to that, meditation is trying to gain control of the mind to have the ability to turn off the multitasking feature and focus on one... um... program at a moment. Heh

You don't think God has perfect abs and a model's face, McGay?

It's simply another RJ case of someone trying to fart at an elevation higher than where exists his ass. It's a matter of perspective, I guess.

{these curly braces represent a hole where unposted was a huge post that after I read it over was deemed as completely irrelevant and removed}

Someone mentioned Godel's Incompleteness Theorem. It is time, I think, to throw myself off a bridge.

TigerTim saidSomeone mentioned Godel's Incompleteness Theorem. It is time, I think, to throw myself off a bridge.

Take me with?