Ireland..........Lisbon Treaty..........How will you vote?

  • MikePhilPerez

    Posts: 4357

    May 24, 2008 6:42 PM GMT
    How can a government, tell us to vote "YES" for Treaty, they haven't even read icon_question.gif

    Do they think we are fools icon_question.gif

    Are we fools icon_question.gificon_confused.gif


    Mike
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    May 25, 2008 5:55 AM GMT
    Vote yes please! Lol. If you vote yes, and the rest of the EU member states ok the treaty, the Charter of Fundamental Rights will get in there as well...it's one of the four parts of the Lisbon Treaty. It has the potential to strengthen the anti-discrimination status of LGBT individuals. I mean, it sucks that the UK and Poland got out of it, but you guys have the chance to vote for it yourselves, and you (Ireland) are the only ones who actually get to vote, lol.
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    May 25, 2008 6:36 AM GMT
    forgive my ignorance on this one but I cant see that the treaty adds anything extra to the Laws we already have in the UK

    maybe I am missing something?
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    May 25, 2008 6:44 AM GMT
    Well, talking about the Charter, in the preamble it states that it does not seek to add anything new, however, it does. It puts in one document all the community treaties, case laws, bilateral treaty obligations, etc etc into one document that can then be sited in the future...in other words, it strengthens the protection that is theoretically already there. This is my view, and god knows there are plenty other views out there! bfg1, coming from the UK, what do you think the main reason the UK opted out was? I'm in the US, and I can look at media reports and what not, but on the ground, why?
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    May 25, 2008 8:43 AM GMT
    because the UK regulations on the treatment of LGBT people are far more reaching and enforeable than anything that comes out of Europe.

    With Catholic control in many European countries they have tried to include too many caveats, as well as which they rarely enforce half of the European legislation anywhere outside of the UK. If anything its a case of we wont be dictated to by Europe and will not have legislation imposed on us this way when we are already a decade ahead of them.

    Add to this the immigration issue and I think this would be the main sticking point. If same sex couples were allowed to marry in other countries and we are forced to honour these against our own rulings then are we going to face an even greater waive of economic migration from new member states? Our social welfare system is straining at the seems as it is. Our healthcare is struiggling to keep pace with the baby boom of Polish immigrants and its set to get far far worse. I reckon with in a few more years we are going to face close borders and probably in a decade pulling out of the EU for this very reason.

    Maybe Im a lucky one, my empoyee affords any partner of mine equal rights, but then again they are in the top 10 stonewall listed companies (number 3 this year I think) but then again if I get asked to attend one more bloody LGBT meeting as a rep I will scream ha ha ha, its like being worshipped for being gay!
  • MikePhilPerez

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    May 25, 2008 9:57 PM GMT
    Have both of you guys read the Treaty?
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    May 25, 2008 10:09 PM GMT
    I'm as of yet undecided...

    Anyone have a copy of the Lisbon treaty for Dummies?


    Over all it seems like i'd tend towards the yes side of the argument. But then again the politician's who I normally disagree with are encouraging me to vote yes so I'm vary of their motives and reasoning icon_confused.gif
  • MikePhilPerez

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    May 25, 2008 11:05 PM GMT
    AMT87 saidI'm as of yet undecided...

    Anyone have a copy of the Lisbon treaty for Dummies?


    Over all it seems like i'd tend towards the yes side of the argument. But then again the politician's who I normally disagree with are encouraging me to vote yes so I'm vary of their motives and reasoning icon_confused.gif



    Well, I'm anti Fianna Fáil, so maybe that's why I'm on the no side at the moment, but I was shocked this weekend, when I heard that Taoiseach Brian Cowan, the man that is threatening government members that if they vote no they will get the sack, has not read the Treaty icon_eek.gif Those on the no side that I have heard, say they have read it in full.

    I haven't read it, but I'm sure there is stuff in there that they don't want us to know about icon_confused.gif
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    May 25, 2008 11:18 PM GMT
    MikePhil said

    Well, I'm anti Fianna Fáil, so maybe that's why I'm on the no side at the moment, but I was shocked this weekend, when I heard that Taoiseach Brian Cowan, the man that is threatening government members that if they vote no they will get the sack, has not read the Treaty icon_eek.gif Those on the no side that I have heard, say they have read it in full.

    I haven't read it, but I'm sure there is stuff in there that they don't want us to know about icon_confused.gif


    I know I read that too...

    True sign of a democracy, "
    Vote zee vay we want or you vill be fired"


    But then what else can you expect from a country who's blind to the world, republican supporters re-elected a man under investigation for embezzlement and unethical business practices to office.

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    May 25, 2008 11:21 PM GMT
    I must confess Mike when ya posted it up I thought whats he on abut but I then read up on it altho its hard to find a full treaty document but the ones I came across were as I said what we have already done in UK bar the acknowledging other countries arrangements
  • MikePhilPerez

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    May 25, 2008 11:31 PM GMT
    bfg1 saidI must confess Mike when ya posted it up I thought whats he on abut but I then read up on it altho its hard to find a full treaty document but the ones I came across were as I said what we have already done in UK bar the acknowledging other countries arrangements



    I tried to download it (don't know what website it was) but my dial up was not able for it.

    Best to vote no this time around I think. Although as we have seen before, if no wins, they will just go again.


    And yes, AMT87, this country is getting more and more undemocratic by the day.
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    May 25, 2008 11:44 PM GMT
    I'm in the UK.

    The rights protection in the treaty is good for LGBT community.

    But that aside... I've got an international outlook and hope that Europe gets closer and closer.

    I know not everyone wants this, but I do, that's my politics ;)
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    May 26, 2008 1:11 AM GMT
    I'm working on finding a copy of it. I know I have one on my computer, but I'm not sure where I downloaded it. The thing you have to keep in mind is, the EU is confusing!!! haha. You will find 10 different things that sort of kind of tell you what you want to know. I found this just now and it seems to be rather well put together,

    http://robert-schuman.eu/doc/divers/lisbonne/en/10fiches.pdf

    If you are really interested, I know you can find a copy at europa.eu

    As for the UK, I am rather annoyed by them, no offense! I just graduated with a degree in International Relations and really, the UK just seems to want to be in the EU just to make sure it doesn't become anything. Yeah, I admit I have a bias, mostly because I think the EU is a really interesting political entity, and I want to see where it goes. As for this thread though, eh, I'm not surprised some didn't read it. God knows it happens in my country!
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    May 26, 2008 7:47 PM GMT
    Yeah the UK kinda sucks when it comes to European policy.

    If you ask me though - the day will come when UK policy is much much much more pro Europe.

    A few years stagflation and a rising cost of living might have us looking for safety in the Eurozone.

    On top of that America's power will (probably, you never can tell) decline, while China and India's grow.

    There's not much space for Britain going it alone amongst all those big players.

    Just may two (euros) worth ;)

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    May 26, 2008 7:56 PM GMT
    PicJon said

    Just may two (euros) worth ;)



    two centime? non?

    icon_razz.gif
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    May 26, 2008 8:08 PM GMT
    I have decided to vote "no." I have no idea what the treaty is, but I thought I would just cause chaos and dissention by stating so. I don't even have the right to vote for it, as I am an American. (That, and I don't know what it is...) icon_question.gif
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    May 26, 2008 8:15 PM GMT
    stonecoldfoxboy saidI have decided to vote "no." I have no idea what the treaty is, but I thought I would just cause chaos and dissention by stating so. I don't even have the right to vote for it, as I am an American. (That, and I don't know what it is...) icon_question.gif


    In very very very very lay terms....it makes a kinda, sort of Federal Europe. Whereas with the US the Fed has quite a lot of power, in Europe the Nation States or Member States retain most of their sovereignty.

    It was originally an Economic Union, however its now moving more towards a Political and Social Union. I'm all for it as I think it'll spread Human Rights throughout many of the ex-soviet countries. Furthermore, Turkey would like to ascend into the Union so we've told them they have to buck up on their Human Rights regime.

    I think others could explain more, I'm meant to be revising for one of my Law exams...if wanted I'll give a huge essay on the EU/EC and the institutions therein. But now I must revise!!!

    For the record I would vote YES! (but I'm Labour through and through and we're pro-Europe!)

    Michael

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    May 26, 2008 8:28 PM GMT
    MikePhil saidI haven't read it, but I'm sure there is stuff in there that they don't want us to know about icon_confused.gif


    Isn't this a bit knee-jerk? You haven't read it, but you're voting "No"? This is just as foolish as voting "Yes" without having read it, surely? As an uninformed voter, the only conscientious choice would be abstention
  • MikePhilPerez

    Posts: 4357

    May 26, 2008 9:32 PM GMT
    Colm_of_Dublin said[quote][cite]MikePhil said[/cite]I haven't read it, but I'm sure there is stuff in there that they don't want us to know about icon_confused.gif


    Isn't this a bit knee-jerk? You haven't read it, but you're voting "No"? This is just as foolish as voting "Yes" without having read it, surely? As an uninformed voter, the only conscientious choice would be abstention[/quote]

    I would have to disagree with ya Colm.

    If no wins, they will put it to the people again, and again, and again. They will keep doing it until they get, a YES. Maybe they will tweak it a bit. The way I view it, is, you lose nothing by voting no. Where as, if you abstain, you help the yes side. And if there is something bad in there, and yes wins, well, then we are fu*ked icon_neutral.gif Because it will not be put to the people again if yes wins. This is our wonderful democratic government icon_rolleyes.gif

    Anyway, Colm, trust me on this one. Vote no icon_wink.gif
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    May 27, 2008 2:35 AM GMT
    This is in response to British Guy:

    Although the EU says it advances human rights and all that jazz, the record seems to indicate they don't really care about hr. I mean, they let Poland opt out of the charter (and the UK, but I don't think that had to do with hr at all), and even though a great deal of human rights protections exist, like Article 7 on the Treaty on EU (Maastricht Treaty I think), they haven't used it and I doubt ever will. As for Turkey, I believe the EU is honestly just afraid of letting in a large state that is so non-European and let's face it, Muslim. As of now, the EU is still an economic union, and only superficially a human rights protector.
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    May 27, 2008 5:40 AM GMT
    MikePhil said
    If no wins, they will put it to the people again, and again, and again. They will keep doing it until they get, a YES. Maybe they will tweak it a bit. The way I view it, is, you lose nothing by voting no. Where as, if you abstain, you help the yes side. And if there is something bad in there, and yes wins, well, then we are fu*ked icon_neutral.gif Because it will not be put to the people again if yes wins. This is our wonderful democratic government icon_rolleyes.gif

    Anyway, Colm, trust me on this one. Vote no icon_wink.gif


    Are you voting against the Treaty...or against your Government? If its the latter, thats why I was totally opposed to there being a referendum in the UK
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    May 27, 2008 8:30 AM GMT
    Well, if Ireland votes no then the euro will drop again against the dollar like it did when France voted no for the last treaty. This might be good for the economy in the short run for Europe because its products will be more affordable in the world outside Europe.

    However, it may be bad for the economy of Europe in the long run because gas prices that are indirectly related to the dollar will go up and that will increase inflation tremendously and with the long-term effect of devastating the economy.

    That said, I do not think that it is automatic that the EU will bring up the treaty over and over again. It has taken several years to get to another treaty agreement after some brutal negotiations during which England and Poland were allowed to have their way. Let us face the facts. The individual countries of the EU are not ready to be united in a federal system and they keep on taking on more and more countries that were not ready to join the union when they were allowed to join. This addition of eastern countries to the EU will weaken the social framework of the western countries. One of the reasons for this is the emigration from those countries as bfg1 has stated above, which exacerbates the problem of immigration into Europe from Africa and Asia. The right wing politicians in Europe are gaining power because they have taken up this issue and they are not for human rights and not for the social framework that have made western Europe a better society to live in than the USA.
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    May 27, 2008 9:52 AM GMT
    I agree, what's Ireland got to lose?

    Like I say, the EU is inevitable for all of us. The UK is currently swimming against the tide - it would be sad if Ireland did the same.
  • MikePhilPerez

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    May 27, 2008 10:36 PM GMT
    British_Guy said[quote][cite]MikePhil said[/cite]

    Are you voting against the Treaty...or against your Government? If its the latter, thats why I was totally opposed to there being a referendum in the UK


    Against the Treaty, but it's nice that it's against the government also icon_smile.gif
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    May 29, 2008 6:11 AM GMT
    MikePhil said

    Against the Treaty, but it's nice that it's against the government also icon_smile.gif


    So what are your actual reasons for voting against the Treaty?