--- Shattered friendship, fixable or not- advice? ---

  • Rocky_Brown

    Posts: 27

    Oct 22, 2011 11:09 PM GMT
    Hi RJ, I'm Rocky.

    Would really appreciate your considered views on my dilemma with somebody I used to see as a close friend. I know the following is long, but I'd appreciate you looking through it (to get a deeper understanding of the situation)

    OK.

    So.

    I had friend who I considered one of my best mates, almost like a brother at the time. We share a a small but close group of friends from high school (although we didn't really hang out until years later).

    Anyway, we became really close in a short period of time post-school. We had a very similar sense of humor, he seemed really sweet/genuine and excited to hang out with me. As time went by though, very quickly, there were a few nagging issues in the back of my head that would start to surface with him...

    He would secretly rub his leg against mine under the table when we were drinking with friends, or touch my ass whenever I didn't expect it and nobody could see. When you mix that and the qualities above that I really liked about him, you can probably see how I started to develop a massive all consuming crush on him (cliche ftw!).

    We'd spend hours up on hours per day with each other online, hanging out lot, and then playfully flirting etc. The flirting progressed from banter, to a light pat on the butt, to lingering hand, rubbed legs under the table etc. He on several occasions gestured for me to suck him off when we were alone after a while into out friendship- it went from friendly banter to something he could no longer pretend was just a joke. One time he tried, pushed me against the wall, inches away from my face, nodding at me, I went in to kiss him, he paused, stopped me, then jumped on his bed with his legs up. I quickly left, hurt, offended.

    He identifies as 100% straight. Although up until that point never had a real gf. He lost his v-card at 19, and as far as I know hasn't had much sex since. He was/is also the kind of guy to drop homophobic/sexist comments. I just thought it was a cover at first, an act to impress the type of working class hyper-masculine culture he seems to have grown up in/looks up to. I assumed he was at least bi or heavily closeted to try it on with me so much. But maybe he was straight and wanted head from me, use me, simple as that?

    He would get jealous if I hung out with other friends, or didn't see/speak to him for a few weeks, and would say pretty mean comments to me to sort of let me know he was hurt then immediately cut off line, until he got over it and acted like nothing happened the next time we talked.

    I'm the type of person though, that when I am hurt by somebody like that, I need an apology, and or an explanation at the very least, or it will fester in me, and come back out at random moments with mean comments right back, or simply become emotionally distanced from the person in question. He is not a verbal communicator AT ALL when it comes to real emotions though.

    Furthermore he kept on trying to hit on me despite knowing of my crush and my not wanting to be his human flesh-light, so to speak, or his a piece of convenient meat to use and abuse. He laughed when I almost tearfully confessed my crush on him (maybe a nervous laugh? but still a fucked up thing to do right?) and later said 'i'm not pissed off, it's fine but don't want to ruin our friendship'. He stopped hitting on me for a long time after that.

    There was probably about two suggestive comments and one more gesture towards his crotch much much later though after this had died down. Still, he realized it was not going to happen in the way he had wanted. I preferred to be his friend or somebody he could respectfully 'love' than his throw-away slut. Things seemed to get better for periods, but he would still get jealous or mean here and there when it was clear that I wouldn't put myself back in the situation where I would fall for him again. I needed some distance to achieve this. It was not a diss.

    I tried distancing myself to stop crushing on him. I once went to a club with other friends without inviting him, his reaction was 'Well, I was just using you anyaway', to which I replied 'what for', and he said 'for my pleasure' via IM, then logged of. I was FUMING, I wanted to kick the shit out of him for that nasty knife in the heart. He later said he was only kidding and that I take too much to heart. BS, right? Was he just trying to hurt me for feeling left out, or was there some truth in there too? Seems awfully spot-on to be just a random insult he fished out of the nether.

    I distanced myself from him emotionally and physically. for a long time. Close to a year with just the occasional brief chat, or drinks among mutual friends, where I would not really get into conversation with him past polite formalities, but talked more to my other friends. I wanted to talk out our issues before becoming close again, but he is not a big talker in that sense, he avoids real convo/emotion like the plague, he would rather talk about sports/triviality and brush the problem under the carpet and expect me to do the same.

    He would leave messages on his status' that he was depressed/lonely, and song titles like 'meet me halfway','blue moon' or less obscure 'come back, yes you mr know it all', etc. I tried calling him a couple of time as I thought our online convo's didn't exactly help our friendship much when things got touchy. The conversations were always stilted, short and kind of curt on his side. I know he is not super talkative tbh, and our other friends have this with him also, but there is a limit to how one sided a friendship can be, surely? Or should I just accept that is how he is and not expect him to put more effort in as it is not in his personality to do so?

    Anyway, at that point, I sorta gave up. He wanted me back like old times seemingly, but dodn't put much effort in on his part, I feel, to mend things or arrange to meet me (he mostly communicates with all our friends on msn, even though we don't use it much anymore, he doesn't really text/call ppl). I was pretty much resigned to just having him as a person I was aquainted to/occassionally hung out with with mutual buddies, my friendship just seemed to gradually deterioate with him.

    So, this takes us to one year ago, amid our almost estranged period. He FINALLY texted me to arrange going out, after many months of hardly much contact at all. I agreed, but we didn't fully arrange it, and I neither of us really followed up on it, so it kind of passed by without happening. I know this time it was partly my fault too, but I was too emotionally disconnected to him by this time to really try very hard any more.

    A few months after I had arranged to go out to the cinema with another friend of mine from school who had come back to town from college. When the guy found out I didn't invite him, he called me a slut and then revealed to me that he had found out some seriously personal info about me and used it against me as an insult. I knew right away his brother would know, and most likely the group of friends we shared. I was devasted, hurt, livid with rage. I was DONE.

    A few months later his brother tried to reconcile us, once again saying he was merely 'joking, you take things too much to heart' line etc. I was done. End of. I said so. The end. Good luck and good bye.

    Later that year after not talking, we were all at an event for a mutual friend. He tried to look me in the eye and get my attention. I was still hurt/mad, so I looked away, repeatedly, ignored him.

    That was one year ago exactly. Wr have had no contact with each other since until tonight. I am no longer angry. I have cooled down with time. I sent him a text saying that if he would like to get a coffee to chat, let me know.

  • Rocky_Brown

    Posts: 27

    Oct 22, 2011 11:24 PM GMT
    His reply was ' listen, I have nothing against you, if you didn't/don't want to talk to me, i'm fine with it, just to let you know I have nothing against you' followed by a friendly joke.

    He didn't really commit to meeting to try and sort things out one way or other.

    I'm not sure if he is done with trying to be friends at this point, or even if I am tbh. Or more than likely, he would like to hang out again but not discuss the problems that caused the rifts in the first place.

    I have thought about him to some extent every day. At first it was a venomous hatred remembering the bad things, then just nostalgia at the good times remembered with the odd moments of wanting to hit him, now its not a strong feeling either way. But is that enough reason to try to be friends again?

    When the friendship was good, it was awesome, probably one of the best in my life. But when it was bad, god it was awful, and the damage from the hurt long-lasting. I feel that I am no longer able to be hurt by him again now, as I've become significantly more emotionally separate from him. I don't have any romantic feelings for him in the slightest, they were burned. But, is the 'friendship' level something I should try to fix?

    What would you do in my shoes? Brush the past problems under the carpet/try to deal with them before fixing the friendship? Learn from the past and wish him well, but realize the 'friendship' is a lost cause?

    I will make up my own mind, but would like to get outside, objective opinions to help me think this out.

    I really appreciate you reading all of this.

    Looking forward to your replies.

    Thank you!

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 23, 2011 12:25 AM GMT
    Your so called 'friend' is not your friend. He is an abuser and takes advantage of you. Sometimes we can only learn by falling and standing up on our own again. You fell and got up, don't make him let you fall again.

    There will always be a power imbalance when in a friendship one person has a crush on the other. There will always be the one whose giving away power and the one who gets power over the other. He knows this and has used this to his advantage (and against you).

    Experience is our teacher and normally I would tell you that sometimes you have to fall in order to get up on your own again. You did fall and managed to get up. Learn from your mistakes and learn from your past. See what the universe is trying to teach you, otherwise you will be stuck and won't be able to move forward. The loop will repeat itself until you realize what the lesson to learn is here.
    You can talk to him, just don't expect much from it. Don't invest once again in something that will not have a positive output for you. I sense you are not over him. Why did you initiate contact? You said you were done, but clearly are not
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    Oct 23, 2011 12:38 AM GMT
    I dont really understand what he did that was so terrible for you guys to stop talking. IMO someone took things out of proportion. You know, if someone really wanted to be your friend none of this stuff would happen. Normally when jealousy gets involved, it's not a friendship anymore, and more like a one-sided romantic interest. Are you sure what you really want from him is just friendship? It sounds more to me like you wanted a boyfriend out of him, and that's obviously something he didn't want
  • Rocky_Brown

    Posts: 27

    Oct 23, 2011 12:39 AM GMT
    Well, the crush part is definitely over. That's for sure. I was too naive then, but that was several years ago now, i've been through a lot since then: study, relationships, jobs, troubles, happiness, maturing etc. I'm certainly not the same overly innocent/green person that I was when I was 20. I was looking for something in somebody who I really shouldn't have been. Lesson well and truly learnt, I have the scars to prove it lol.

    I felt that's why now being a time when I have no strong feeling for him either way, spontaneously today, felt like a good time to try and mend a friendship (although, in retrospect, perhaps the friendship was never really a 100% genuine one).

    Also, I was good friends with his brother, and it has damaged my relationship with him, as he feels obligated to not talk to me for the sake of his brother. And I miss him (the younger brother).

    I questioned myself today. Whether I was wrong to not try to fix the friendhsip after all this time. Not to return to the unbalanced version as it was in the past, but I hoped he had matured by now too.

    I also want answers from him, if nothing else, for final closure about the info he dug up on me. icon_confused.gif


    (btw, thanks for the replies, I appreciate it)
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    Oct 23, 2011 12:57 AM GMT
    I would try to reconcile the friendship with him because you never know if you will ever get that chance again. There are other people out there who would kill to reconcile a friendship with someone they deeply cared about but due to some circumstances, it was too late. I wouldn't want that to happen you to either of you guys. Hope you guys mend the friendship.
  • Rocky_Brown

    Posts: 27

    Oct 23, 2011 1:00 AM GMT
    Lux_ said...
    You can talk to him, just don't expect much from it. Don't invest once again in something that will not have a positive output for you.


    I won't expect much from it. I don't even know if it will happen tbh, he won't want to do it I expect, as he'll know I have a lot of uncomfortable questions for him. But, perhaps he will, and i'll finally get my answers (which is what I want the most at the moment tbh).

  • Rocky_Brown

    Posts: 27

    Oct 23, 2011 1:05 AM GMT
    SkittleGangsta saidI dont really understand what he did that was so terrible for you guys to stop talking. IMO someone took things out of proportion. You know, if someone really wanted to be your friend none of this stuff would happen. Normally when jealousy gets involved, it's not a friendship anymore, and more like a one-sided romantic interest. Are you sure what you really want from him is just friendship? It sounds more to me like you wanted a boyfriend out of him, and that's obviously something he didn't want


    That's what I wondered re him. Whether his obvious jealousy was his secret feelings for me. Or just a misplaced sense or propriety he had.

    OH I FORGOT TO MENTION: one time in a club, we hugged and he whispered in my ear that he loved me, and vice versa. But I just couldn't trust a word he said at that point, as previously he told me the love was just on a friend level. After he declared this 'love', we both went off and danced with girls. At the end of the night he drunkenly tried to get me to grab his crotch in a train station. I didn't. So, I have no clue what that was really all about.


    No, definitely not looking for a bf in him. A person can only take so much lol (I couldn't muster those same luvy duvy feelings again even if I tried at this point, which I wouldn't) but i'm unsure as to whether a friendship should necessarily be written off forever or not in this case.

    Regarding the out of proportion comment: perhaps, but i'm trying to look at things objectively now that emotion is no longer in the equation. I think that is was the accumulated under-handed commments to me, as well as the dug up info (which is really personal/sensitive in nature) he used as a deliberate insult to me, felt like the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 23, 2011 1:48 AM GMT
    Sounds like you have some virginal sexual intimacy issues like a female librarian. You don't have to marry everyone you have sex with and you will never find out anything unless you fool around a bit. He is not that smooth at seduction either or he would have had your pants down by now but again unless you practice you will go through life watching movies about romance.
  • Rocky_Brown

    Posts: 27

    Oct 23, 2011 2:11 AM GMT
    Alpha13 saidSounds like you have some virginal sexual intimacy issues like a female librarian. You don't have to marry everyone you have sex with and you will never find out anything unless you fool around a bit. He is not that smooth at seduction either or he would have had your pants down by now but again unless you practice you aren't ever Gina get good at it.



    HAHALOL gurl+please.gif

    Well I was 20/21 at the time and less experienced, but not a virgin, no ;)...Still, that may have had something to do with the reason I didn't suck his dick, oh, and the fact that I would have been crushed, at that time, to do so only to have the guy I really fell for think 'yes, another notch on my bedpost, ughh, awkward though, best to stop being so close to this guy, i'm not a fag'

    Although since then, i've racked up a pretty sizable number on my bed post. And not felt anything more than lust for the hot tricks I banged tbh ;D

    I've only ever felt strong emotions like that for a couple of ppl, and maybe the very beginning of that feeling for a couple of others. Trust me, I have since had my slutty phase, learned from it and enjoyed it, since the earlier phase in my life when I was his friend.

    This thread honestly has NOTHING to do with any lingering romantic/sexual feelings. There isn't any. It is about whether or not a friendship with this guy is worth the effort? Or does it make me an idiot to go back to befriending somebody who i've clashed with as hard I have done, even if it was only a small part of our friendship (assuming you lot even think his actions were that bad anyway/or do you think cutting all ties forever is too cold and unforgiving?)

  • Rocky_Brown

    Posts: 27

    Oct 23, 2011 2:33 PM GMT
    man-thinking-gif.gif

    ?
  • Rocky_Brown

    Posts: 27

    Oct 23, 2011 5:20 PM GMT
    Just would be curious to hear more views to glean whether they may be a general consensus, or otherwise.

    Thanks.
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    Oct 23, 2011 5:45 PM GMT
    My take... he just wanted to have sex with you without the emotional ties. Like maybe he just saw you as someone he could safely experiment with sexually, but not get into all the complicated emotions. The posts were really long so I had a hard time following the timeline or figuring out what the true issue is. This doesn't feel like a friendship though. Doesn't seem like you two make each other better, which is what happens in friendships and relationships.
  • Rocky_Brown

    Posts: 27

    Oct 23, 2011 6:13 PM GMT
    ^ Yh I agree with you about the sexual experimentation part.

    Regarding the friendship, I know what you mean, but it's hard to truly reconcile that, as when the friendship was/is good between us, it's likely one of best, if not the very best, I have had. Just one of those people you instantly click with, who has the same humor, interests, and high level of interest in you that you have for them (not necessarily sexual/romantic at all, I couldn't give a damn about that part now, but that doesn't take away from all the other good factors).

    I guess I just need to balance the good against the bad that happened in our friendship, and whether people can change for the better after time, or if the same old patterns will inevitably persist. Not so much different to whether a relationship of any kind, romantic or platonic alike, is worth working on, I'd imagine.

    It's truly ironical that the same person who can make you feel so happy/glad to interact with, more than anybody else, also can make you feel the worst, even if those times are rare.

    =s
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 23, 2011 8:41 PM GMT
    If HE wants to change, your friendship has chances. If not, forgett about him as soon as you can.
    And don't try hitting on him
  • Rocky_Brown

    Posts: 27

    Oct 23, 2011 9:00 PM GMT
    Justtrying saidIf HE wants to change, your friendship has chances. If not, forgett about him as soon as you can.
    And don't try hitting on him


    That's rings true. If he does want to/is able to/will change sometime in the future, then at least I can be comfortable in the knowledge that i've finally opened up preliminary communication again and left the ball in his court to do so.

    I'm not going to look back into the past and hope for a miraculous semi-character change though, albeit, I won't absolutely rule out the possibility of things/people changing somewhere off in the future when we've both matured into people who can be good friends to one another, without the issues we have had in the past.

    Life is about moving forwards, so that's just what I'll continue to do.

    And no, there will be none of me hitting on him (nor was there ever any chance in the past of me doing so, due to the wrong set of circumstances between us for it to ever be a positive experience on both sides).
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 24, 2011 8:20 AM GMT
    Rocky_BrownI'm not going to look back into the past and hope for a miraculous semi-character change though, albeit, I won't absolutely rule out the possibility of things/people changing somewhere off in the future when we've both matured into people who can be good friends to one another, without the issues we have had in the past


    Very wise decision. My (now) best friend and I went nearly through the same thing and I think you're absolutely right. Some people have the potentials to be really close and good friends, but sometimes they're just not ready for each other. Time will show.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 24, 2011 9:22 AM GMT
    Rocky_Brown saidHi RJ, I'm Rocky.

    Would really appreciate your considered views on my dilemma with somebody I used to see as a close friend. I know the following is long, but I'd appreciate you looking through it (to get a deeper understanding of the situation)

    OK.

    So.

    I had friend who I considered one of my best mates, almost like a brother at the time. We share a a small but close group of friends from high school (although we didn't really hang out until years later).

    Anyway, we became really close in a short period of time post-school. We had a very similar sense of humor, he seemed really sweet/genuine and excited to hang out with me. As time went by though, very quickly, there were a few nagging issues in the back of my head that would start to surface with him...

    He would secretly rub his leg against mine under the table when we were drinking with friends, or touch my ass whenever I didn't expect it and nobody could see. When you mix that and the qualities above that I really liked about him, you can probably see how I started to develop a massive all consuming crush on him (cliche ftw!).

    We'd spend hours up on hours per day with each other online, hanging out lot, and then playfully flirting etc. The flirting progressed from banter, to a light pat on the butt, to lingering hand, rubbed legs under the table etc. He on several occasions gestured for me to suck him off when we were alone after a while into out friendship- it went from friendly banter to something he could no longer pretend was just a joke. One time he tried, pushed me against the wall, inches away from my face, nodding at me, I went in to kiss him, he paused, stopped me, then jumped on his bed with his legs up. I quickly left, hurt, offended.

    He identifies as 100% straight. Although up until that point never had a real gf. He lost his v-card at 19, and as far as I know hasn't had much sex since. He was/is also the kind of guy to drop homophobic/sexist comments. I just thought it was a cover at first, an act to impress the type of working class hyper-masculine culture he seems to have grown up in/looks up to. I assumed he was at least bi or heavily closeted to try it on with me so much. But maybe he was straight and wanted head from me, use me, simple as that?

    He would get jealous if I hung out with other friends, or didn't see/speak to him for a few weeks, and would say pretty mean comments to me to sort of let me know he was hurt then immediately cut off line, until he got over it and acted like nothing happened the next time we talked.

    I'm the type of person though, that when I am hurt by somebody like that, I need an apology, and or an explanation at the very least, or it will fester in me, and come back out at random moments with mean comments right back, or simply become emotionally distanced from the person in question. He is not a verbal communicator AT ALL when it comes to real emotions though.

    Furthermore he kept on trying to hit on me despite knowing of my crush and my not wanting to be his human flesh-light, so to speak, or his a piece of convenient meat to use and abuse. He laughed when I almost tearfully confessed my crush on him (maybe a nervous laugh? but still a fucked up thing to do right?) and later said 'i'm not pissed off, it's fine but don't want to ruin our friendship'. He stopped hitting on me for a long time after that.

    There was probably about two suggestive comments and one more gesture towards his crotch much much later though after this had died down. Still, he realized it was not going to happen in the way he had wanted. I preferred to be his friend or somebody he could respectfully 'love' than his throw-away slut. Things seemed to get better for periods, but he would still get jealous or mean here and there when it was clear that I wouldn't put myself back in the situation where I would fall for him again. I needed some distance to achieve this. It was not a diss.

    I tried distancing myself to stop crushing on him. I once went to a club with other friends without inviting him, his reaction was 'Well, I was just using you anyaway', to which I replied 'what for', and he said 'for my pleasure' via IM, then logged of. I was FUMING, I wanted to kick the shit out of him for that nasty knife in the heart. He later said he was only kidding and that I take too much to heart. BS, right? Was he just trying to hurt me for feeling left out, or was there some truth in there too? Seems awfully spot-on to be just a random insult he fished out of the nether.

    I distanced myself from him emotionally and physically. for a long time. Close to a year with just the occasional brief chat, or drinks among mutual friends, where I would not really get into conversation with him past polite formalities, but talked more to my other friends. I wanted to talk out our issues before becoming close again, but he is not a big talker in that sense, he avoids real convo/emotion like the plague, he would rather talk about sports/triviality and brush the problem under the carpet and expect me to do the same.

    He would leave messages on his status' that he was depressed/lonely, and song titles like 'meet me halfway','blue moon' or less obscure 'come back, yes you mr know it all', etc. I tried calling him a couple of time as I thought our online convo's didn't exactly help our friendship much when things got touchy. The conversations were always stilted, short and kind of curt on his side. I know he is not super talkative tbh, and our other friends have this with him also, but there is a limit to how one sided a friendship can be, surely? Or should I just accept that is how he is and not expect him to put more effort in as it is not in his personality to do so?

    Anyway, at that point, I sorta gave up. He wanted me back like old times seemingly, but dodn't put much effort in on his part, I feel, to mend things or arrange to meet me (he mostly communicates with all our friends on msn, even though we don't use it much anymore, he doesn't really text/call ppl). I was pretty much resigned to just having him as a person I was aquainted to/occassionally hung out with with mutual buddies, my friendship just seemed to gradually deterioate with him.

    So, this takes us to one year ago, amid our almost estranged period. He FINALLY texted me to arrange going out, after many months of hardly much contact at all. I agreed, but we didn't fully arrange it, and I neither of us really followed up on it, so it kind of passed by without happening. I know this time it was partly my fault too, but I was too emotionally disconnected to him by this time to really try very hard any more.

    A few months after I had arranged to go out to the cinema with another friend of mine from school who had come back to town from college. When the guy found out I didn't invite him, he called me a slut and then revealed to me that he had found out some seriously personal info about me and used it against me as an insult. I knew right away his brother would know, and most likely the group of friends we shared. I was devasted, hurt, livid with rage. I was DONE.

    A few months later his brother tried to reconcile us, once again saying he was merely 'joking, you take things too much to heart' line etc. I was done. End of. I said so. The end. Good luck and good bye.

    Later that year after not talking, we were all at an event for a mutual friend. He tried to look me in the eye and get my attention. I was still hurt/mad, so I looked away, repeatedly, ignored him.

    That was one year ago exactly. Wr have had no contact with each other since until tonight. I am no longer angry. I have cooled down with time. I sent him a text saying that if he would like to get a coffee to chat, let me know.






    OK.

    So.

    If you must? Choose a healthful obsession.





  • Rocky_Brown

    Posts: 27

    Oct 24, 2011 10:11 AM GMT
    PHLmuscle8 said
    OK.

    So.

    If you must? Choose a healthful obsession.


    Poor reading comprehension ^.

    If you've ever had somebody you considered a true best friend, a strong bond only shared with a handful of people throughout life, you would know that a complete flippant disregard/indifference of them/the former friendship, despite problems, is a sign of a sociopath. Anything else does not automatically make a person obsessive.

    This thread is merely me airing my thoughts out to more objectively, and collectively, analyze the situation. It is long but comprehensive to provide full context. I'm not at home sitting under a shrine, crying my eyes out and rocking in a chair to the memories of past times.