Evangelicals and Gay Marriage: Why 'Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin' Doesn't Work

  • metta

    Posts: 39099

    Oct 23, 2011 4:08 PM GMT
    Evangelicals and Gay Marriage: Why 'Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin' Doesn't Work

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-dudley/evangelicals-gay-marriage-why-love-the-sinner-hate-_b_1017934.html
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    Oct 23, 2011 7:13 PM GMT
    Several good points in this article worth pointing out (emphasis is mine):

    "Evangelicalism's greatest failure on homosexuality is not that all evangelicals are filled with conscious hatred toward gays, but its unjustified self-confidence, its close-mindedness, and its egregious failure to learn from its own history.

    "And that's why "love the sinner, hate the sin" doesn't cut it. Christians are too prone to mistake their own prejudice and fear of social change for God's will."


    Very true.

    "Part of "loving the sinner" must be making sure that legitimate desires are not classified as "sin.""

    But one point I disagree with:

    "[The] study shows that it is possible for individuals to consciously love another class of humans even while unwittingly supporting systematic discrimination against them."

    I grew up in a fundamentalist church and still know many fundamentalists. What is said among themselves and what is presented for public consumption is very different. The "love the sinner, hate the sin" bit is an obligatory facade. Most Christian fundamentalists have no love for gays whatsoever. They despise gays, personally and passionately. They view gay people with disgust and mistrust and believe that gays are agents of Satan. They truly hate gays.
  • metta

    Posts: 39099

    Oct 23, 2011 10:53 PM GMT
    "Evangelicalism's greatest failure on homosexuality is not that all evangelicals are filled with conscious hatred toward gays, but its unjustified self-confidence, its close-mindedness, and its egregious failure to learn from its own history."
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    Oct 23, 2011 11:07 PM GMT
    That article explains in full detail why I stopped believing in religion altogether. There's no fucking way in hell I'm gonna worship the same fictional being that's perpetrated hatred toward certain groups of people since the beginning of written history.

    PS. I still think religion should be outlawed for that very reason. It promotes hate. icon_wink.gif
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    Oct 24, 2011 2:01 AM GMT
    paulflexes saidThat article explains in full detail why I stopped believing in religion altogether. There's no fucking way in hell I'm gonna worship the same fictional being that's perpetrated hatred toward certain groups of people since the beginning of written history.

    PS. I still think religion should be outlawed for that very reason. It promotes hate. icon_wink.gif

    As with work, just because someone stands up and spouts off what a regulation or directive means and how it should be applied doesn't necessarily mean they are correct. You have to get into the language of the regulation yourself. Many times, the expert is full of crap or has overlooked the true intention of the directive and focused on a very minor aspect in the language of the document. Same with the Bible. I feel if homosexuality/bisexuality was the main focus of the Bible, it would be mentioned more than it is and in more places. In fact, the subject that is mentinoed more than any other is money. The love of money is the root of all evil, easier for a camel to go throught the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to heaven, list is endless. Not a whole lot on being gay. In fact, Jesus did not even mention it. (Paul did but not Jesus). As Jesus did, I do not hold much confidence in the professional religious people of our time. Many have other agendas, are chasing money or influence, or are living as a hypocrit. But that does not cause me to lose faith. My faith is not in the professional religious people or the political system that uses religion to gain power, my faith is in God and his Son. I say fuck what the professional religious assholes down here say.
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    Oct 24, 2011 2:02 AM GMT
    paulflexes saidThat article explains in full detail why I stopped believing in religion altogether. There's no fucking way in hell I'm gonna worship the same fictional being that's perpetrated hatred toward certain groups of people since the beginning of written history.

    PS. I still think religion should be outlawed for that very reason. It promotes hate. icon_wink.gif


    BTW Paul, I am not hatin on you. I love your body and your sharp, honest mind. Just throwing in my 2 cents worth.
  • Cutlass

    Posts: 426

    Nov 21, 2011 5:29 AM GMT
    If they really "loved" the "sinner," they would leave us alone and let us pursue our goals without sabotaging them.
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    Nov 21, 2011 5:40 AM GMT
    beachwalk said
    paulflexes saidThat article explains in full detail why I stopped believing in religion altogether. There's no fucking way in hell I'm gonna worship the same fictional being that's perpetrated hatred toward certain groups of people since the beginning of written history.

    PS. I still think religion should be outlawed for that very reason. It promotes hate. icon_wink.gif

    As with work, just because someone stands up and spouts off what a regulation or directive means and how it should be applied doesn't necessarily mean they are correct. You have to get into the language of the regulation yourself. Many times, the expert is full of crap or has overlooked the true intention of the directive and focused on a very minor aspect in the language of the document. Same with the Bible. I feel if homosexuality/bisexuality was the main focus of the Bible, it would be mentioned more than it is and in more places. In fact, the subject that is mentinoed more than any other is money. The love of money is the root of all evil, easier for a camel to go throught the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to heaven, list is endless. Not a whole lot on being gay. In fact, Jesus did not even mention it. (Paul did but not Jesus). As Jesus did, I do not hold much confidence in the professional religious people of our time. Many have other agendas, are chasing money or influence, or are living as a hypocrit. But that does not cause me to lose faith. My faith is not in the professional religious people or the political system that uses religion to gain power, my faith is in God and his Son. I say fuck what the professional religious assholes down here say.


    Hope you don't mind my repeating it; your post was great to read.


    -Doug
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    Nov 21, 2011 5:59 AM GMT
    paulflexes saidThat article explains in full detail why I stopped believing in religion altogether. There's no fucking way in hell I'm gonna worship the same fictional being that's perpetrated hatred toward certain groups of people since the beginning of written history.

    PS. I still think religion should be outlawed for that very reason. It promotes hate. icon_wink.gif


    Although I totally respect your right to have your opinion, Paul, I have to emphatically disagree, as I feel that what you wrote oversimplifies the complexity of our reality, and frankly, throws the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

    With or without the Bible, there will always be some sort of justification for why we "hate" certain groups. People hate. People love. It's our choice.

    The "us-them" mentality is at the heart of our broken human nature (our "sinfulness"), and the very issue to which the Bible addresses and calls our attention -- our separation from each other, and ultimately, from God. By holding up an image for us of to see of our selves in those stories, the Bible calls us to turn toward God/Jesus for the solution in Love and Grace through recognition of Truth through Repentance and Faith. When we miss this, we miss the message altogether.

    Furthermore, I feel that your statement(s) does/do not do religion justice as religion can be the very empowering and necessary source and motivation for very good things as well, from education, humanitarian aid, spiritual growth, comfort, and nourishment, meaning, provision of the moral foundation for human dignity, value and worth, justice for the oppressed/captive/enslaved/outcasts, etc. Failing to recognize these aspects does not encourage a fair assessment.
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    Nov 21, 2011 6:15 AM GMT
    TerraFirma said, "Furthermore, I feel that your statement(s) does/do not do religion justice as religion can be the very empowering and necessary source and motivation for very good things as well, from education, humanitarian aid, spiritual growth, comfort, and nourishment, meaning, provision of the moral foundation for human dignity, value and worth, justice for the oppressed/captive/enslaved/outcasts, etc. Failing to recognize these aspects does not encourage a fair assessment."

    It certainly can be, and it has also been everything Paul described.

    icon_wink.gif
    -Doug
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    Nov 21, 2011 6:20 AM GMT
    TerraFirma said
    paulflexes saidThat article explains in full detail why I stopped believing in religion altogether. There's no fucking way in hell I'm gonna worship the same fictional being that's perpetrated hatred toward certain groups of people since the beginning of written history.

    PS. I still think religion should be outlawed for that very reason. It promotes hate. icon_wink.gif


    Although I totally respect your right to have your opinion, Paul, I have to emphatically disagree, as I feel that what you wrote oversimplifies the complexity of our reality, and frankly, throws the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

    With or without the Bible, there will always be some sort of justification for why we "hate" certain groups. People hate. People love. It's our choice.

    The "us-them" mentality is at the heart of our broken human nature (our "sinfulness"), and the very issue to which the Bible addresses and calls our attention -- our separation from each other, and ultimately, from God. By holding up an image for us of to see of our selves in those stories, the Bible calls us to turn toward God/Jesus for the solution in Love and Grace through recognition of Truth through Repentance and Faith. When we miss this, we miss the message altogether.

    Furthermore, I feel that your statement(s) does/do not do religion justice as religion can be the very empowering and necessary source and motivation for very good things as well, from education, humanitarian aid, spiritual growth, comfort, and nourishment, meaning, provision of the moral foundation for human dignity, value and worth, justice for the oppressed/captive/enslaved/outcasts, etc. Failing to recognize these aspects does not encourage a fair assessment.


    This is what I have found. I have had plenty of experience in religious organizations that never made me feel unwelcome or less than fully equal.
    On the whole, I believe Christianity (not churchianity) has been a force for good in this world.
  • tazzari

    Posts: 2929

    Nov 21, 2011 5:06 PM GMT
    Not to revert to the original thread, but...

    "Love the sinner" is further absurd in that real love "casts out fear". It is delusional and manipulative to say you love someone but to reject something that is a basic part of that person. I go the same BS from my nephew - who is utterly unwilling to listen to what I may have to say, and thus unwilling to learn anything.

    Can you really love someone, and not listen to them? Can you really love someone if you are not prepared to learn from them?

    Happily, I have found that in the Episcopal church, people are very willing to listen and learn. Trinity Seattle is Open and Affirming, we have an annual Matthew Shepard sermon (there is a link to the text of this year’s sermon at http://www.trinityseattle.org/parish-news.aspx ), we feed over 3,000 people per week, we have several gay people on the staff…

    Some churches, at least, love the person. Period. No conditions of "buts". The “love the sinner” crowd are delusional.
  • Cutlass

    Posts: 426

    Nov 29, 2011 5:14 AM GMT
    Although I do not belong to any religion, I'm willing to concede that there are some churches that do good and can be respected. The Unitarians and Quakers have always been open to gays and don't demonize them. And, of course, the Metropolitan Community Church is gay, and some may find comfort with them. Then there are some of the mainstream churches like the Episcopalians, Presbyterians and a branch of the Lutheran Church which have ordained gays, although some Episcopalians are know to oppose gays and are talking of splitting from the main church. However, if some of the mainstream churches are accepting gays unconditionally, then I think of this as a hopeful sign for the future.