It's not class envy, it's anger at a rigged system: "Wall Street isn't winning, it's cheating"

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    Oct 27, 2011 12:22 PM GMT
    This is a great article that highlights the reasons why Occupy Wall Street and the 99% movement are taking hold in the US. Americans have an innate sense of justice and they are increasingly aware of how rigged the political and economic systems are against them.


    Matt Taibbi, Rolling StoneI was at an event on the Upper East Side last Friday night when I got to talking with a salesman in the media business. The subject turned to Zucotti Park and Occupy Wall Street, and he was chuckling about something he'd heard on the news.

    "I hear [Occupy Wall Street] has a CFO," he said. "I think that's funny."

    "Okay, I'll bite," I said. "Why is that funny?"

    "Well, I heard they're trying to decide what bank to put their money in," he said, munching on hors d'oeuvres. "It's just kind of ironic."

    Oh, Christ, I thought. He’s saying the protesters are hypocrites because they’re using banks. I sighed.

    "Listen," I said, "where else are you going to put three hundred thousand dollars? A shopping bag?"

    "Well," he said, "it's just, they're protests are all about... You know..."

    "Dude," I said. "These people aren't protesting money. They're not protesting banking. They're protesting corruption on Wall Street."

    "Whatever," he said, shrugging.

    These nutty criticisms of the protests are spreading like cancer. Earlier that same day, I'd taped a TV segment on CNN with Will Cain from the National Review, and we got into an argument on the air. Cain and I agreed about a lot of the problems on Wall Street, but when it came to the protesters, we disagreed on one big thing.

    Cain said he believed that the protesters are driven by envy of the rich.

    "I find the one thing [the protesters] have in common revolves around the human emotions of envy and entitlement," he said. "What you have is more than what I have, and I'm not happy with my situation."

    Cain seems like a nice enough guy, but I nearly blew my stack when I heard this. When you take into consideration all the theft and fraud and market manipulation and other evil shit Wall Street bankers have been guilty of in the last ten-fifteen years, you have to have balls like church bells to trot out a propaganda line that says the protesters are just jealous of their hard-earned money.

    Think about it: there have always been rich and poor people in America, so if this is about jealousy, why the protests now? The idea that masses of people suddenly discovered a deep-seated animus/envy toward the rich – after keeping it strategically hidden for decades – is crazy.

    Where was all that class hatred in the Reagan years, when openly dumping on the poor became fashionable? Where was it in the last two decades, when unions disappeared and CEO pay relative to median incomes started to triple and quadruple?

    The answer is, it was never there. If anything, just the opposite has been true. Americans for the most part love the rich, even the obnoxious rich. And in recent years, the harder things got, the more we've obsessed over the wealth dream. As unemployment skyrocketed, people tuned in in droves to gawk at Evrémonde-heiresses like Paris Hilton, or watch bullies like Donald Trump fire people on TV.

    Moreover, the worse the economy got, the more being a millionaire or a billionaire somehow became a qualification for high office, as people flocked to voting booths to support politicians with names like Bloomberg and Rockefeller and Corzine, names that to voters symbolized success and expertise at a time when few people seemed to have answers. At last count, there were 245 millionaires in congress, including 66 in the Senate.

    And we hate the rich? Come on. Success is the national religion, and almost everyone is a believer. Americans love winners. But that's just the problem. These guys on Wall Street are not winning – they're cheating. And as much as we love the self-made success story, we hate the cheater that much more.

    In this country, we cheer for people who hit their own home runs – not shortcut-chasing juicers like Bonds and McGwire, Blankfein and Dimon.

    That's why it's so obnoxious when people say the protesters are just sore losers who are jealous of these smart guys in suits who beat them at the game of life. This isn't disappointment at having lost. It's anger because those other guys didn't really win. And people now want the score overturned.

    All weekend I was thinking about this “jealousy” question, and I just kept coming back to all the different ways the game is rigged. People aren't jealous and they don’t want privileges. They just want a level playing field, and they want Wall Street to give up its cheat codes, things like:

    FREE MONEY. Ordinary people have to borrow their money at market rates. Lloyd Blankfein and Jamie Dimon get billions of dollars for free, from the Federal Reserve. They borrow at zero and lend the same money back to the government at two or three percent, a valuable public service otherwise known as "standing in the middle and taking a gigantic cut when the government decides to lend money to itself."

    Or the banks borrow billions at zero and lend mortgages to us at four percent, or credit cards at twenty or twenty-five percent. This is essentially an official government license to be rich, handed out at the expense of prudent ordinary citizens, who now no longer receive much interest on their CDs or other saved income. It is virtually impossible to not make money in banking when you have unlimited access to free money, especially when the government keeps buying its own cash back from you at market rates.

    Your average chimpanzee couldn't fuck up that business plan, which makes it all the more incredible that most of the too-big-to-fail banks are nonetheless still functionally insolvent, and dependent upon bailouts and phony accounting to stay above water. Where do the protesters go to sign up for their interest-free billion-dollar loans?

    CREDIT AMNESTY. If you or I miss a $7 payment on a Gap card or, heaven forbid, a mortgage payment, you can forget about the great computer in the sky ever overlooking your mistake. But serial financial fuckups like Citigroup and Bank of America overextended themselves by the hundreds of billions and pumped trillions of dollars of deadly leverage into the system -- and got rewarded with things like the Temporary Liquidity Guarantee Program, an FDIC plan that allowed irresponsible banks to borrow against the government's credit rating.

    This is equivalent to a trust fund teenager who trashes six consecutive off-campus apartments and gets rewarded by having Daddy co-sign his next lease. The banks needed programs like TLGP because without them, the market rightly would have started charging more to lend to these idiots. Apparently, though, we can’t trust the free market when it comes to Bank of America, Goldman, Sachs, Citigroup, etc.

    In a larger sense, the TBTF banks all have the implicit guarantee of the federal government, so investors know it's relatively safe to lend to them -- which means it's now cheaper for them to borrow money than it is for, say, a responsible regional bank that didn't jack its debt-to-equity levels above 35-1 before the crash and didn't dabble in toxic mortgages. In other words, the TBTF banks got better credit for being less responsible. Click on freecreditscore.com to see if you got the same deal.

    STUPIDITY INSURANCE. Defenders of the banks like to talk a lot about how we shouldn't feel sorry for people who've been foreclosed upon, because it's they're own fault for borrowing more than they can pay back, buying more house than they can afford, etc. And critics of OWS have assailed protesters for complaining about things like foreclosure by claiming these f
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    Oct 27, 2011 12:28 PM GMT
    A great article. icon_biggrin.gif
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    Oct 27, 2011 2:05 PM GMT
    Nice article.

    It is amazing to me how so many people are angry at immigrants for taking their jobs, or the poor for abusing welfare but those same people stop short of being angry at corporations that abuse and rip us off daily.

    We don't need to dismantle capitalism, but we do need to reduce corporate influence in politics. Anyone who cannot see this after the years of abuse we have sustained is truly in denial.

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    Oct 27, 2011 2:39 PM GMT
    Can someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law? Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?
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    Oct 27, 2011 2:53 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie saidCan someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law? Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?

    Ummm... you're referring to the "bought & paid for" Republican Congress? That legislated banking deregulation all during the Bush years? And the "Party of No" that blocked all Democratic efforts at regulation reform when Democrats had a slim majority for a few months in the first year of the Obama Administration?

    The cheating consists, among other things, of playing with paper money, pushing bad loans around. That Federal regulators, gutted & hamstrung during the Bush years, couldn't prevent. Some have already gone to jail over it, though not enough, and another was just indicted from Goldman Sachs for illegal insider trading, yesterday I believe.
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    Oct 27, 2011 2:56 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie saidCan someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law? Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?


    maybe u've heard of these guys?

    http://news.yahoo.com/ex-goldman-board-member-indicted-insider-case-150439701.html
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    Oct 27, 2011 3:01 PM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    mocktwinkie saidCan someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law? Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?

    Ummm... you're referring to the "bought & paid for" Republican Congress? That legislated banking deregulation all during the Bush years? And the "Party of No" that blocked all Democratic efforts at regulation reform when Democrats had a slim majority for a few months in the first year of the Obama Administration?

    The cheating consists, among other things, of playing with paper money, pushing bad loans around. That Federal regulators, gutted & hamstrung during the Bush years, couldn't prevent. Some have already gone to jail over it, though not enough, and another was just indicted from Goldman Sachs for illegal insider trading, yesterday I believe.


    "That legislated banking deregulation all during the Bush years? "

    Thanks Art. I didn't know Bush was president in 1999. Thanks for keeping me up to date. Only problem is that in your desperation to hang all of this around Bush's neck, you made just a little boo boo on the date

    [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act_of_1933[/url]

    The bill that ultimately repealed the Act was brought up in the Senate by Phil Gramm (R-Texas) and in the House of Representatives by Jim Leach (R-Iowa) in 1999. The bills were passed by a Republican majority, basically following party lines by a 54–44 vote in the Senate[9] and by a bi-partisan 343–86 vote in the House of Representatives.[10] After passing both the Senate and House the bill was moved to a conference committee to work out the differences between the Senate and House versions. The final bill resolving the differences was passed in the Senate 90–8 (one not voting) and in the House: 362–57 (15 not voting). The legislation was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on November 12, 1999

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    Oct 27, 2011 3:03 PM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    mocktwinkie saidCan someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law? Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?

    Ummm... you're referring to the "bought & paid for" Republican Congress? That legislated banking deregulation all during the Bush years? And the "Party of No" that blocked all Democratic efforts at regulation reform when Democrats had a slim majority for a few months in the first year of the Obama Administration?

    The cheating consists, among other things, of playing with paper money, pushing bad loans around. That Federal regulators, gutted & hamstrung during the Bush years, couldn't prevent. Some have already gone to jail over it, though not enough, and another was just indicted from Goldman Sachs for illegal insider trading, yesterday I believe.


    So that's why you bois blocked this

    http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/11/business/new-agency-proposed-to-oversee-freddie-mac-and-fannie-mae.html

    by doing this

    http://tv.breitbart.com/unearthed-video-shows-dems-in-04-fighting-regulations-on-fannie-mae-freddie-mac/
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    Oct 27, 2011 3:05 PM GMT
    Does Enron, Worldcom, or Bernie Maddoff ring any bells?

    Also, just because something is done within the parameters of self serving laws that these companies have helped to create, does not make it any less outrageous. It is in fact the core of the issue OWS is fighting about.

    Welfare is a legal social program that is under attack because it allows for a great deal of abuse. This is no different than many of the tax loop holes, subsidies, bailouts and deregulation efforts that have benefited corporations.

    mocktwinkie saidCan someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law? Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?
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    Oct 27, 2011 3:11 PM GMT
    freedomisntfree saidSo that's why you bois blocked this

    http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/11/business/new-agency-proposed-to-oversee-freddie-mac-and-fannie-mae.html

    Because it was a smoke & mirrors effort to actually gut regulatory controls. Never believe a Republican bill based on its name -- it's usually a thinly-veiled attempt at the exact opposite of what the name implies.
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    Oct 27, 2011 3:22 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie saidCan someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law?

    Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?


    Mock, your first question shows that you need to renew your newspaper subscription.

    The second question is more interesting........and fundamentally important to reforming a system that NO ONE can argue is working to make our economy stronger. It is exactly what has been SANCTIONED BY CONGRESS that must be changed.

    The Republicans have been kicking, screaming and BLOCKING(Elizabeth Warren) every attempt at making the financial industry more transparent and honest........so that we as business folk and consumers can compete in the marketplace.
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    Oct 27, 2011 5:52 PM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    mocktwinkie saidCan someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law? Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?

    Ummm... you're referring to the "bought & paid for" Republican Congress? That legislated banking deregulation all during the Bush years? And the "Party of No" that blocked all Democratic efforts at regulation reform when Democrats had a slim majority for a few months in the first year of the Obama Administration?


    The “deregulation” you are talking about was actually spearheaded by democrats, and it wasn’t a “deregulation” at all, it was an order from congress to fannie and Freddie to push into greater subprime loan purchases to encourage commercial banks to sell more “affordable” (code word for “bad”) loans in order to make housing more “affordable” and increase “diversity” in home-ownership. The commercial banks (like countrywide) did not make the rules on the loans that they were selling (primarily to fannie and gang), those rules came from congress and particularly policies championed by Dodd and Barney Frank. It is true that many of the commercial banks knew very well what they were doing but they had a “nothing-to-lose” enabled situation by which they could engage in the greedy practices. Perhaps we need to lift so many of these safety nets that catch banks when they engage in bad behavior? Oh no, your hero Dodd wouldn’t want that!

    And newsflash, the democrats are leading this crony-capitalism charge that you want to foist entirely on republicans:

    “It was reported by the Wall Street Journal on 6 June 2008 that 2 former CEO of Fannie Mae, Franklin Raines and James A. Johnson, who was also an adviser to then-Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama, had received loans from Countrywide.[4] On July 16, 2008, The Washington Post reported that Franklin Raines had "taken calls from Barack Obama's presidential campaign seeking his advice on mortgage and housing policy matters."[5] However, Raines and the Obama campaign both allege that Raines has never advised Obama.[6] See Raines and Obama.
    On 18 June 2008, a Congressional ethics panel started examining allegations that Democratic Senators Christopher Dodd of Connecticut (the sponsor of a major $300 billion housing rescue bill) and Kent Conrad of North Dakota received preferential loans by troubled mortgage lender Countrywide Financial Corp.[7]
    Dodd has faced criticism for his role in this scandal from Connecticut's largest newspaper, the Hartford Courant[8] as well as from the Connecticut Republican party.[9] Citizens Against Government Waste (CAGW) named Dodd its June 2008 "Porker of the Month" for accepting a preferential mortgage deal from Countrywide Financial which stands to benefit from a mortgage bill he is pushing through Congress.[10]
    On January 6, 2010, Dodd announced that he would not run for re-election”
    --wikipedia


    notadumbjock said
    mocktwinkie saidCan someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law? Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?


    maybe u've heard of these guys?

    http://news.yahoo.com/ex-goldman-board-member-indicted-insider-case-150439701.html

    You honestly think I’m asking for references to white collar criminals? Seriously? Occupy wall-street is not protesting criminals who are caught and punished for what they do (unless you’re trying to convince me that all CEOs are engaging in egregious law-breaking behavior and haven’t been caught and jailed yet?). Occupy wall-street feeds on some idea that all of “wall-street” (what is wallstreet btw, Financial Planners and Advisors who invest client money in stock?) and big bankers are somehow all breaking some law and swindling everyone out of money. It’s total bullocks. It’s stupid envious mob mentality.
    creyente saidDoes Enron, Worldcom, or Bernie Maddoff ring any bells?

    Also, just because something is done within the parameters of self serving laws that these companies have helped to create, does not make it any less outrageous. It is in fact the core of the issue OWS is fighting about.

    Welfare is a legal social program that is under attack because it allows for a great deal of abuse. This is no different than many of the tax loop holes, subsidies, bailouts and deregulation efforts that have benefited corporations.

    mocktwinkie saidCan someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law? Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?


    Again, this has nothing to do with instances of criminals breaking the law. All of those law-breakers are in jail. Are you suggesting every banker and every person on wall-street (which is what is being protested) are breaking the law? That’s like blaming all people for the actions of thieves breaking into a jewelry store.
    PresentMind said
    mocktwinkie saidCan someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law?

    Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?


    Mock, your first question shows that you need to renew your newspaper subscription.

    The second question is more interesting........and fundamentally important to reforming a system that NO ONE can argue is working to make our economy stronger. It is exactly what has been SANCTIONED BY CONGRESS that must be changed.

    The Republicans have been kicking, screaming and BLOCKING(Elizabeth Warren) every attempt at making the financial industry more transparent and honest........so that we as business folk and consumers can compete in the marketplace.


    Umm, no, you are unfortunately mostly mislead and deluded on the causes for the mess we are in. See above.

    And yes, crony capitalism did contribute to this mess and democrats were at the forefront of it.

    Government sanctioned policies interfering and manipulating with bank loaning standards and making orders regarding buying x amount of bad loans is what CAUSED this crisis, not the personal banker making 30k a year doing her job and just following the rules, nor the financial advisor and broker helping their clients make money through wise investments.

    You fix the system by STOPPING THE INTERFERENCE FROM GOVERNMENT ENABLING AN ENVIRONMENT FOR GREED TO PROSPER. OWS hides around ambiguity as to who really is guilty. We already KNOW who is guilty so why aren’t they going after the government ENABLERS like Dodd and Barney Frank and protesting at their houses demanding that they go to jail? No, instead they protest the people who were ordered to engage in bad practices (and of course, happily did so at their own profit).

    The problem is that people like you LOVE government interference like this, you thrive off of it. Just think, if Dodd and Frank had not convinced Bush and congress to go along with their agenda we'd still be having liberals like you protesting that banks are "discriminating in their lending".

    Maybe you should look at what some of the banks were having to deal with and the other factors that encouraged them into riskier and riskier lending practices on top of what congress was doing with fannie and gan
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    Oct 27, 2011 6:01 PM GMT
    "Countrywide agreed to a settlement with New York state attorney general Elliot Spitzer to compensate black and Hispanic borrowers improperly steered by Countrywide salespeople to higher-cost loans. The company also agreed to improve training and oversight of its loan officers and to pay New York state $200,000 to cover costs of the investigation.[15]

    Countrywide subprime documents show a policy of lending to families with as little as $1000 of disposable income, often compromising their ability to pay living expenses.

    Economist Stan Liebowitz writes that the Fannie Mae Foundation singled out Countrywide Financial as a "paragon" of a nondiscriminatory lender who works with community activists, following "the most flexible underwriting criteria permitted." The chief executive of Countrywide is said to have bragged that in order to approve minority applications, "lenders have had to stretch the rules a bit." Countrywide's commitment to low-income loans had grown to $600 billion by early 2003.[16]"


    Liberals like you, PresentMind, WANT banks to engage in this behavior because you think it furthers a certain "good" cause (yeah well see where all of those good intentions lead? A world of hurt for the ones who were the object of helping). So don't pretend you're against all of this shit. You are a statist to the core.

    If we were to go back in time, you and every other liberal here would be talking about how we need the government to intervene in order to make housing more affordable and repeat this very crisis all over again. Do you even realize that? It just renders this whole OWS protesting nonsense all the more ludicrous.

    Smaller and less government and government involvement with banks and corporations means less chance for crony capitalism, but you don't want that, you WANT the deep government involvement because you think they are more moral than the corporations and will keep the corporations from "getting too big", but instead they end up in bed together. Because guess what, those "angels" don't exist.
  • dancedancekj

    Posts: 1761

    Oct 27, 2011 6:44 PM GMT
    OWSvsTP.jpg

    Let's all meet in the middle and protest. Next week work? I'll bring hummus.
  • Lincsbear

    Posts: 2605

    Oct 27, 2011 7:44 PM GMT
    Doubtless the people who campaigned against the slave trade were motivated by envy of the slave owners`/traders` wealth?
    Proponents of the satus quo made the same arguments in 18th century Britain.
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    Oct 28, 2011 12:01 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie saidYou honestly think I’m asking for references to white collar criminals? Seriously? Occupy wall-street is not protesting criminals who are caught and punished for what they do (unless you’re trying to convince me that all CEOs are engaging in egregious law-breaking behavior and haven’t been caught and jailed yet?).

    Oh well then, if everyone has been caught and jailed why don't we just close down the prisons because everyone who would commit a crime has already been caught? icon_rolleyes.gif

    mocktwinkie saidCan someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law? Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?


    I'm not sure what you were expecting with this question, but we gave you the answers to this. Notice the use of past tense in your question? Here are a few more: Waste Management, Tyco, Health South Corporation and AIG.

    Obviously, we can't tell you about multiple crimes that are currently taking place, so what are you looking for?

    While the WSJ article is old, I can tell you that today several corporations are still being investigated for improper management of pensions: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121761989739205497.html?mod=todays_us_page_one
    http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/stealing-your-pension-daily-show-look

    The fact is that even with those that have been caught, there are thousands of lives that have been ruined through the destruction of pensions, 401Ks and investments.

    Many of those caught were not forced to pay anything out of their personal earnings, only the company's earnings. While they may have received some jail time, they were all coming home to luxurious lifestyles while their victims continue to struggle to get their lives back together.

    I know there are tons of honest hard working business people on wall street, but unfortunately there are a few that have the potential to do tremendous damage. In many cases not maliciously but simply because they are more concerned about profits than the far reaching impact of their decisions.

    To ignore all of these events, and allow business as usual is beyond ridiculous. We cannot do anything about the past, but we can ensure that more accountability is expected in the future.

    Businesses have far too much influence in developing legislation that allows them to conduct business poorly, fail and push the bill on to the American people. This has to stop.

    The impact of both the poor business practices and criminal behavior have a far greater impact to our economy than social programs and yet we hear people scream about this every day. We do need to clean up social programs, but we also need to crack down on the huge impact of bad business.

    It's pretty simple, you don't want government interfering with business and we don't want business interfering with government.

    A good start would be to stop the public funding of political campaigns from all sources. Also, stiffer penalties for individuals caught committing business crimes would be helpful.

    mocktwinkie said

    maybe u've heard of these guys?

    http://news.yahoo.com/ex-goldman-board-member-indicted-insider-case-150439701.html

    You honestly think I’m asking for references to white collar criminals? Seriously? Occupy wall-street is not protesting criminals who are caught and punished for what they do (unless you’re trying to convince me that all CEOs are engaging in egregious law-breaking behavior and haven’t been caught and jailed yet?). Occupy wall-street feeds on some idea that all of “wall-street” (what is wallstreet btw, Financial Planners and Advisors who invest client money in stock?) and big bankers are somehow all breaking some law and swindling everyone out of money. It’s total bullocks. It’s stupid envious mob mentality.

    creyente saidDoes Enron, Worldcom, or Bernie Maddoff ring any bells?

    Also, just because something is done within the parameters of self serving laws that these companies have helped to create, does not make it any less outrageous. It is in fact the core of the issue OWS is fighting about.

    Welfare is a legal social program that is under attack because it allows for a great deal of abuse. This is no different than many of the tax loop holes, subsidies, bailouts and deregulation efforts that have benefited corporations.

    mocktwinkie saidCan someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law? Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?


    Again, this has nothing to do with instances of criminals breaking the law. All of those law-breakers are in jail. Are you suggesting every banker and every person on wall-street (which is what is being protested) are breaking the law? That’s like blaming all people for the actions of thieves breaking into a jewelry store.
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    Oct 28, 2011 2:42 PM GMT
    creyente said
    mocktwinkie saidYou honestly think I’m asking for references to white collar criminals? Seriously? Occupy wall-street is not protesting criminals who are caught and punished for what they do (unless you’re trying to convince me that all CEOs are engaging in egregious law-breaking behavior and haven’t been caught and jailed yet?).

    Oh well then, if everyone has been caught and jailed why don't we just close down the prisons because everyone who would commit a crime has already been caught? icon_rolleyes.gif

    mocktwinkie saidCan someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law? Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?


    I'm not sure what you were expecting with this question, but we gave you the answers to this. Notice the use of past tense in your question? Here are a few more: Waste Management, Tyco, Health South Corporation and AIG.

    Obviously, we can't tell you about multiple crimes that are currently taking place, so what are you looking for?

    While the WSJ article is old, I can tell you that today several corporations are still being investigated for improper management of pensions: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121761989739205497.html?mod=todays_us_page_one
    http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/stealing-your-pension-daily-show-look

    The fact is that even with those that have been caught, there are thousands of lives that have been ruined through the destruction of pensions, 401Ks and investments.

    Many of those caught were not forced to pay anything out of their personal earnings, only the company's earnings. While they may have received some jail time, they were all coming home to luxurious lifestyles while their victims continue to struggle to get their lives back together.

    I know there are tons of honest hard working business people on wall street, but unfortunately there are a few that have the potential to do tremendous damage. In many cases not maliciously but simply because they are more concerned about profits than the far reaching impact of their decisions.

    To ignore all of these events, and allow business as usual is beyond ridiculous. We cannot do anything about the past, but we can ensure that more accountability is expected in the future.

    Businesses have far too much influence in developing legislation that allows them to conduct business poorly, fail and push the bill on to the American people. This has to stop.

    The impact of both the poor business practices and criminal behavior have a far greater impact to our economy than social programs and yet we hear people scream about this every day. We do need to clean up social programs, but we also need to crack down on the huge impact of bad business.

    It's pretty simple, you don't want government interfering with business and we don't want business interfering with government.

    A good start would be to stop the public funding of political campaigns from all sources. Also, stiffer penalties for individuals caught committing business crimes would be helpful.

    mocktwinkie said

    maybe u've heard of these guys?

    http://news.yahoo.com/ex-goldman-board-member-indicted-insider-case-150439701.html

    You honestly think I’m asking for references to white collar criminals? Seriously? Occupy wall-street is not protesting criminals who are caught and punished for what they do (unless you’re trying to convince me that all CEOs are engaging in egregious law-breaking behavior and haven’t been caught and jailed yet?). Occupy wall-street feeds on some idea that all of “wall-street” (what is wallstreet btw, Financial Planners and Advisors who invest client money in stock?) and big bankers are somehow all breaking some law and swindling everyone out of money. It’s total bullocks. It’s stupid envious mob mentality.

    creyente saidDoes Enron, Worldcom, or Bernie Maddoff ring any bells?

    Also, just because something is done within the parameters of self serving laws that these companies have helped to create, does not make it any less outrageous. It is in fact the core of the issue OWS is fighting about.

    Welfare is a legal social program that is under attack because it allows for a great deal of abuse. This is no different than many of the tax loop holes, subsidies, bailouts and deregulation efforts that have benefited corporations.

    mocktwinkie saidCan someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law? Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?


    Again, this has nothing to do with instances of criminals breaking the law. All of those law-breakers are in jail. Are you suggesting every banker and every person on wall-street (which is what is being protested) are breaking the law? That’s like blaming all people for the actions of thieves breaking into a jewelry store.


    No, you didn't give me answers. You said the equivalent of: "let's protest against people in the sales because so many of them end up being criminals!", or "let's protest against the poor because they are usually the ones breaking the law", or "let's protest against blacks because they statistically have the highest number of criminals".

    You and others here are lumping "wallstreet" and "bankers" into some category, as though they are all being allowed to do illicit things.

    This isn't about stopping criminal activity, it's about envy and class warfare, pure and simple.

  • Bigolbear

    Posts: 528

    Oct 28, 2011 3:00 PM GMT
    dancedancekj saidOWSvsTP.jpg

    Let's all meet in the middle and protest. Next week work? I'll bring hummus.


    L-O-V-E this. Can you just imagine the change that could be brought about if both sides worked together?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 28, 2011 5:03 PM GMT
    The question you originally posed was answered by me and several others. You asked about what specific illicit activities were perpetrated, we gave you the answer.

    You are now modifying your question to ask why we are picking on all of the wall street business people because they are not all bad people. We already agree on this, but you choose to ignore this in my response to you.

    Instead you choose to read into my statements data to fit your own rhetoric about the OWS.

    The protest are not because these people are all horrible and will probably commit crimes, the protest are because no one is addressing the issue of the corporate stranglehold on government which allows for the types of unethical and damaging activities that we are seeing.

    No different than blacks protesting in the 60's not because all whites were prejudice, but because there were many injustices not being addressed in our society.

    No different than the American colonies protesting against the British not because all Brits were evil, but because of an unjust government.

    mocktwinkie said
    creyente said
    mocktwinkie saidYou honestly think I’m asking for references to white collar criminals? Seriously? Occupy wall-street is not protesting criminals who are caught and punished for what they do (unless you’re trying to convince me that all CEOs are engaging in egregious law-breaking behavior and haven’t been caught and jailed yet?).

    Oh well then, if everyone has been caught and jailed why don't we just close down the prisons because everyone who would commit a crime has already been caught? icon_rolleyes.gif

    mocktwinkie saidCan someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law? Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?


    I'm not sure what you were expecting with this question, but we gave you the answers to this. Notice the use of past tense in your question? Here are a few more: Waste Management, Tyco, Health South Corporation and AIG.

    Obviously, we can't tell you about multiple crimes that are currently taking place, so what are you looking for?

    While the WSJ article is old, I can tell you that today several corporations are still being investigated for improper management of pensions: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121761989739205497.html?mod=todays_us_page_one
    http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/stealing-your-pension-daily-show-look

    The fact is that even with those that have been caught, there are thousands of lives that have been ruined through the destruction of pensions, 401Ks and investments.

    Many of those caught were not forced to pay anything out of their personal earnings, only the company's earnings. While they may have received some jail time, they were all coming home to luxurious lifestyles while their victims continue to struggle to get their lives back together.

    I know there are tons of honest hard working business people on wall street, but unfortunately there are a few that have the potential to do tremendous damage. In many cases not maliciously but simply because they are more concerned about profits than the far reaching impact of their decisions.

    To ignore all of these events, and allow business as usual is beyond ridiculous. We cannot do anything about the past, but we can ensure that more accountability is expected in the future.

    Businesses have far too much influence in developing legislation that allows them to conduct business poorly, fail and push the bill on to the American people. This has to stop.

    The impact of both the poor business practices and criminal behavior have a far greater impact to our economy than social programs and yet we hear people scream about this every day. We do need to clean up social programs, but we also need to crack down on the huge impact of bad business.

    It's pretty simple, you don't want government interfering with business and we don't want business interfering with government.

    A good start would be to stop the public funding of political campaigns from all sources. Also, stiffer penalties for individuals caught committing business crimes would be helpful.

    mocktwinkie said

    maybe u've heard of these guys?

    http://news.yahoo.com/ex-goldman-board-member-indicted-insider-case-150439701.html

    You honestly think I’m asking for references to white collar criminals? Seriously? Occupy wall-street is not protesting criminals who are caught and punished for what they do (unless you’re trying to convince me that all CEOs are engaging in egregious law-breaking behavior and haven’t been caught and jailed yet?). Occupy wall-street feeds on some idea that all of “wall-street” (what is wallstreet btw, Financial Planners and Advisors who invest client money in stock?) and big bankers are somehow all breaking some law and swindling everyone out of money. It’s total bullocks. It’s stupid envious mob mentality.

    creyente saidDoes Enron, Worldcom, or Bernie Maddoff ring any bells?

    Also, just because something is done within the parameters of self serving laws that these companies have helped to create, does not make it any less outrageous. It is in fact the core of the issue OWS is fighting about.

    Welfare is a legal social program that is under attack because it allows for a great deal of abuse. This is no different than many of the tax loop holes, subsidies, bailouts and deregulation efforts that have benefited corporations.

    mocktwinkie saidCan someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law? Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?


    Again, this has nothing to do with instances of criminals breaking the law. All of those law-breakers are in jail. Are you suggesting every banker and every person on wall-street (which is what is being protested) are breaking the law? That’s like blaming all people for the actions of thieves breaking into a jewelry store.


    No, you didn't give me answers. You said the equivalent of: "let's protest against people in the sales because so many of them end up being criminals!", or "let's protest against the poor because they are usually the ones breaking the law", or "let's protest against blacks because they statistically have the highest number of criminals".

    You and others here are lumping "wallstreet" and "bankers" into some category, as though they are all being allowed to do illicit things.

    This isn't about stopping criminal activity, it's about envy and class warfare, pure and simple.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 31, 2011 2:54 PM GMT
    creyente saidThe question you originally posed was answered by me and several others. You asked about what specific illicit activities were perpetrated, we gave you the answer.

    You are now modifying your question to ask why we are picking on all of the wall street business people because they are not all bad people. We already agree on this, but you choose to ignore this in my response to you.

    Instead you choose to read into my statements data to fit your own rhetoric about the OWS.

    The protest are not because these people are all horrible and will probably commit crimes, the protest are because no one is addressing the issue of the corporate stranglehold on government which allows for the types of unethical and damaging activities that we are seeing.

    No different than blacks protesting in the 60's not because all whites were prejudice, but because there were many injustices not being addressed in our society.

    No different than the American colonies protesting against the British not because all Brits were evil, but because of an unjust government.

    mocktwinkie said
    creyente said
    mocktwinkie saidYou honestly think I’m asking for references to white collar criminals? Seriously? Occupy wall-street is not protesting criminals who are caught and punished for what they do (unless you’re trying to convince me that all CEOs are engaging in egregious law-breaking behavior and haven’t been caught and jailed yet?).

    Oh well then, if everyone has been caught and jailed why don't we just close down the prisons because everyone who would commit a crime has already been caught? icon_rolleyes.gif

    mocktwinkie saidCan someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law? Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?


    I'm not sure what you were expecting with this question, but we gave you the answers to this. Notice the use of past tense in your question? Here are a few more: Waste Management, Tyco, Health South Corporation and AIG.

    Obviously, we can't tell you about multiple crimes that are currently taking place, so what are you looking for?

    While the WSJ article is old, I can tell you that today several corporations are still being investigated for improper management of pensions: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121761989739205497.html?mod=todays_us_page_one
    http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/stealing-your-pension-daily-show-look

    The fact is that even with those that have been caught, there are thousands of lives that have been ruined through the destruction of pensions, 401Ks and investments.

    Many of those caught were not forced to pay anything out of their personal earnings, only the company's earnings. While they may have received some jail time, they were all coming home to luxurious lifestyles while their victims continue to struggle to get their lives back together.

    I know there are tons of honest hard working business people on wall street, but unfortunately there are a few that have the potential to do tremendous damage. In many cases not maliciously but simply because they are more concerned about profits than the far reaching impact of their decisions.

    To ignore all of these events, and allow business as usual is beyond ridiculous. We cannot do anything about the past, but we can ensure that more accountability is expected in the future.

    Businesses have far too much influence in developing legislation that allows them to conduct business poorly, fail and push the bill on to the American people. This has to stop.

    The impact of both the poor business practices and criminal behavior have a far greater impact to our economy than social programs and yet we hear people scream about this every day. We do need to clean up social programs, but we also need to crack down on the huge impact of bad business.

    It's pretty simple, you don't want government interfering with business and we don't want business interfering with government.

    A good start would be to stop the public funding of political campaigns from all sources. Also, stiffer penalties for individuals caught committing business crimes would be helpful.

    mocktwinkie said

    maybe u've heard of these guys?

    http://news.yahoo.com/ex-goldman-board-member-indicted-insider-case-150439701.html

    You honestly think I’m asking for references to white collar criminals? Seriously? Occupy wall-street is not protesting criminals who are caught and punished for what they do (unless you’re trying to convince me that all CEOs are engaging in egregious law-breaking behavior and haven’t been caught and jailed yet?). Occupy wall-street feeds on some idea that all of “wall-street” (what is wallstreet btw, Financial Planners and Advisors who invest client money in stock?) and big bankers are somehow all breaking some law and swindling everyone out of money. It’s total bullocks. It’s stupid envious mob mentality.

    creyente saidDoes Enron, Worldcom, or Bernie Maddoff ring any bells?

    Also, just because something is done within the parameters of self serving laws that these companies have helped to create, does not make it any less outrageous. It is in fact the core of the issue OWS is fighting about.

    Welfare is a legal social program that is under attack because it allows for a great deal of abuse. This is no different than many of the tax loop holes, subsidies, bailouts and deregulation efforts that have benefited corporations.

    mocktwinkie saidCan someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law? Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?


    Again, this has nothing to do with instances of criminals breaking the law. All of those law-breakers are in jail. Are you suggesting every banker and every person on wall-street (which is what is being protested) are breaking the law? That’s like blaming all people for the actions of thieves breaking into a jewelry store.


    No, you didn't give me answers. You said the equivalent of: "let's protest against people in the sales because so many of them end up being criminals!", or "let's protest against the poor because they are usually the ones breaking the law", or "let's protest against blacks because they statistically have the highest number of criminals".

    You and others here are lumping "wallstreet" and "bankers" into some category, as though they are all being allowed to do illicit things.

    This isn't about stopping criminal activity, it's about envy and class warfare, pure and simple.



    Umm, no, I was obviously asking you what illicit activities are being committed by ALL people in the banking and "wall-street" business? You are coming up with specific criminal cases that have already been dealt with. You have no point. I could come up with a criminal in every line of work to try and cast a shadow on the whole thing.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 31, 2011 3:18 PM GMT
    When I go down to Lower Manhattan and see these digusting losers I want to vomitt. No one will ever hire these people. Just look at them covered in tattoos, piercings everywhere, they smell bad, and have no respect for anyone. Why dont they pull up their pants from their hips and have some dignity. Buy some deodrant. They are so jealous of anyone that has more than them. They are filled with greed and self entitlement.


    Christopher34 (aka Claude, the stupid liberal)
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 31, 2011 3:27 PM GMT
    CHRISTOPHER34 saidWhen I go down to Lower Manhattan and see these digusting losers I want to vomitt. No one will ever hire these people. Just look at them covered in tattoos, piercings everywhere, they smell bad, and have no respect for anyone. Why dont they pull up their pants from their hips and have some dignity. Buy some deodrant. They are so jealous of anyone that has more than them. They are filled with greed and self entitlement.


    Christopher34 (aka Claude, the stupid liberal)
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 31, 2011 3:35 PM GMT
    PresentMind said
    CHRISTOPHER34 saidWhen I go down to Lower Manhattan and see these digusting losers I want to vomitt. No one will ever hire these people. Just look at them covered in tattoos, piercings everywhere, they smell bad, and have no respect for anyone. Why dont they pull up their pants from their hips and have some dignity. Buy some deodrant. They are so jealous of anyone that has more than them. They are filled with greed and self entitlement.


    Christopher34 (aka Claude, the stupid liberal)



    PresentMind, this is yesterdays news now. Everyone knows Im Christopher the pro business conservative posing as Claude the stupid liberal. Its out of the bag, lol, but thanks for helping me get it out of the bag.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 31, 2011 3:42 PM GMT
    CHRISTOPHER34 said
    PresentMind said
    CHRISTOPHER34 saidWhen I go down to Lower Manhattan and see these digusting losers I want to vomitt. No one will ever hire these people. Just look at them covered in tattoos, piercings everywhere, they smell bad, and have no respect for anyone. Why dont they pull up their pants from their hips and have some dignity. Buy some deodrant. They are so jealous of anyone that has more than them. They are filled with greed and self entitlement.


    Christopher34 (aka Claude, the stupid liberal)



    PresentMind, this is yesterdays news now. Everyone knows Im Christopher the pro business conservative posing as Claude the stupid liberal. Its out of the bag, lol, but thanks for helping me get it out of the bag.


    I'm glad you feel better.

    With socalfitness NOT posting these days, I know you other guys have had extra duty.

    Poor socalfitness, I hope he'll feel like HIMSELF again soon.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Oct 31, 2011 4:21 PM GMT
    No, your question did not ask about "ALL" of wall street or "ALL" bankers. That question does not even make any sense, and I did not think so little of you as to believe you would pose such a question.

    Your question would then be a straw man to which there is no real response, because it would not fit into the rhetoric you are trying to push. I thought you were trying to have a real conversation, but I guess that was my mistake.


    mocktwinkie said
    creyente saidThe question you originally posed was answered by me and several others. You asked about what specific illicit activities were perpetrated, we gave you the answer.

    You are now modifying your question to ask why we are picking on all of the wall street business people because they are not all bad people. We already agree on this, but you choose to ignore this in my response to you.

    Instead you choose to read into my statements data to fit your own rhetoric about the OWS.

    The protest are not because these people are all horrible and will probably commit crimes, the protest are because no one is addressing the issue of the corporate stranglehold on government which allows for the types of unethical and damaging activities that we are seeing.

    No different than blacks protesting in the 60's not because all whites were prejudice, but because there were many injustices not being addressed in our society.

    No different than the American colonies protesting against the British not because all Brits were evil, but because of an unjust government.

    mocktwinkie said
    creyente said
    mocktwinkie saidYou honestly think I’m asking for references to white collar criminals? Seriously? Occupy wall-street is not protesting criminals who are caught and punished for what they do (unless you’re trying to convince me that all CEOs are engaging in egregious law-breaking behavior and haven’t been caught and jailed yet?).

    Oh well then, if everyone has been caught and jailed why don't we just close down the prisons because everyone who would commit a crime has already been caught? icon_rolleyes.gif

    mocktwinkie saidCan someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law? Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?


    I'm not sure what you were expecting with this question, but we gave you the answers to this. Notice the use of past tense in your question? Here are a few more: Waste Management, Tyco, Health South Corporation and AIG.

    Obviously, we can't tell you about multiple crimes that are currently taking place, so what are you looking for?

    While the WSJ article is old, I can tell you that today several corporations are still being investigated for improper management of pensions: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121761989739205497.html?mod=todays_us_page_one
    http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/stealing-your-pension-daily-show-look

    The fact is that even with those that have been caught, there are thousands of lives that have been ruined through the destruction of pensions, 401Ks and investments.

    Many of those caught were not forced to pay anything out of their personal earnings, only the company's earnings. While they may have received some jail time, they were all coming home to luxurious lifestyles while their victims continue to struggle to get their lives back together.

    I know there are tons of honest hard working business people on wall street, but unfortunately there are a few that have the potential to do tremendous damage. In many cases not maliciously but simply because they are more concerned about profits than the far reaching impact of their decisions.

    To ignore all of these events, and allow business as usual is beyond ridiculous. We cannot do anything about the past, but we can ensure that more accountability is expected in the future.

    Businesses have far too much influence in developing legislation that allows them to conduct business poorly, fail and push the bill on to the American people. This has to stop.

    The impact of both the poor business practices and criminal behavior have a far greater impact to our economy than social programs and yet we hear people scream about this every day. We do need to clean up social programs, but we also need to crack down on the huge impact of bad business.

    It's pretty simple, you don't want government interfering with business and we don't want business interfering with government.

    A good start would be to stop the public funding of political campaigns from all sources. Also, stiffer penalties for individuals caught committing business crimes would be helpful.

    mocktwinkie said

    maybe u've heard of these guys?

    http://news.yahoo.com/ex-goldman-board-member-indicted-insider-case-150439701.html

    You honestly think I’m asking for references to white collar criminals? Seriously? Occupy wall-street is not protesting criminals who are caught and punished for what they do (unless you’re trying to convince me that all CEOs are engaging in egregious law-breaking behavior and haven’t been caught and jailed yet?). Occupy wall-street feeds on some idea that all of “wall-street” (what is wallstreet btw, Financial Planners and Advisors who invest client money in stock?) and big bankers are somehow all breaking some law and swindling everyone out of money. It’s total bullocks. It’s stupid envious mob mentality.

    creyente saidDoes Enron, Worldcom, or Bernie Maddoff ring any bells?

    Also, just because something is done within the parameters of self serving laws that these companies have helped to create, does not make it any less outrageous. It is in fact the core of the issue OWS is fighting about.

    Welfare is a legal social program that is under attack because it allows for a great deal of abuse. This is no different than many of the tax loop holes, subsidies, bailouts and deregulation efforts that have benefited corporations.

    mocktwinkie saidCan someone please point out instances where "bankers" and "wall-street" have done something illicitly that would constitute as "cheating" in the eyes of the law? Also, what have they or are doing that is without the sanction of congress?


    Again, this has nothing to do with instances of criminals breaking the law. All of those law-breakers are in jail. Are you suggesting every banker and every person on wall-street (which is what is being protested) are breaking the law? That’s like blaming all people for the actions of thieves breaking into a jewelry store.


    No, you didn't give me answers. You said the equivalent of: "let's protest against people in the sales because so many of them end up being criminals!", or "let's protest against the poor because they are usually the ones breaking the law", or "let's protest against blacks because they statistically have the highest number of criminals".

    You and others here are lumping "wallstreet" and "bankers" into some category, as though they are all being allowed to do illicit things.

    This isn't about stopping criminal activity, it's about envy and class warfare, pure and simple.