MI Senate Legalizes Anti-Gay Bullying

  • metta

    Posts: 39079

    Nov 03, 2011 5:17 PM GMT
    MI Senate Legalizes Anti-Gay Bullying





    http://www.detnews.com/article/20111103/POLITICS02/111030376/1022/Michigan-Senate-OKs-anti-bullying-bill-despite-protests
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    Nov 03, 2011 5:20 PM GMT
    That's a strange characterization.

    By the same token, the first amendment is "Pro Hate Speech" or whatever.
  • metta

    Posts: 39079

    Nov 03, 2011 5:23 PM GMT
    ^

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater
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    Nov 03, 2011 5:28 PM GMT
    "Homosexuality is not biblical" is not equivalent to "FIRE RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!"
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    Nov 03, 2011 5:43 PM GMT
    Larky, why do thou keep missing the point on this issue?

    In the USA there is a substantial religious lobby which would love to have gays made illegal - they are the ones who oppose equality of marriage, are against discrimination laws including gays, and basically want to stack the law of the land as much against gay as possible.

    This is fundamentally un-American. These people want you to live by THEIR religious beliefs.

    This state law was another example of vote desperate republicans throwing sops to this super conservative, anti gay god constituency and in the process undermining the whole point of the legislation.

    You bully someone for being a fag? Oh, no problem, it´s legal. I´m a christian. It´s my belief.

    That legitimises bullying and teaches people how to get away with it. Hence "pro bullying"

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    Nov 03, 2011 5:44 PM GMT
    Larky, why do thou keep missing the point on this issue?

    In the USA there is a substantial religious lobby which would love to have gays made illegal - they are the ones who oppose equality of marriage, are against discrimination laws including gays, and basically want to stack the law of the land as much against gay as possible.

    This is fundamentally un-American. These people want you to live by THEIR religious beliefs.

    This state law was another example of vote desperate republicans throwing sops to this super conservative, anti gay god constituency and in the process undermining the whole point of the legislation.

    You bully someone for being a fag? Oh, no problem, it´s legal. I´m a christian. It´s my belief.

    That legitimises bullying and teaches people how to get away with it. Hence "pro bullying"

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    Nov 03, 2011 5:49 PM GMT
    Larkin_PLR said"Homosexuality is not biblical" is not equivalent to "FIRE RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!"


    If they did, then this is very shocking.

    In a way, it's not the same as yelling "Fire! Run for your lives!" in a crowded theater or shopping mall. But, saying "Homosexuality is not biblical" can be used to justify so many things that are hateful and negative, such as killing a GLBT individual or throwing them out of their apartment. Racists before and during the Civil Rights Movement used a similar way of thinking to deny blacks their right to vote and live a life of liberty and the American Dream. They said that segregation is biblical and had the passages to 'back it up' and justify it.

    And unfortunately, the 'Christian' far-right has quietly stated that bullying is perfectly acceptable and legitimate as a way of fighting against GLBT individuals.
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    Nov 03, 2011 5:52 PM GMT
    metta8 said^

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater


    The irony is that at ruling was made after a massacre in a theatre in Michigan nearly a century ago.

    @ Columbusite: Obviously you haven't heard about the Anoka-Hennepin School District's showdown here in Minnesota.
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    Nov 03, 2011 6:08 PM GMT
    Columbusite777 said
    Larkin_PLR said"Homosexuality is not biblical" is not equivalent to "FIRE RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!"


    In a way, it's not the same as yelling "Fire! Run for your lives!" in a crowded theater or shopping mall. But, saying "Homosexuality is not biblical" can be used to justify so many things that are hateful and negative, such as killing a GLBT individual or throwing them out of their apartment.


    And? The justification for a crime is not the same as a crime.

    People say all kinds of loony things that some use as justification for doing bad things... that doesn't make their loony speech criminal, nor should it.
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    Nov 03, 2011 6:12 PM GMT
    Lostboy said
    In the USA there is a substantial religious lobby which would love to have gays made illegal - they are the ones who oppose equality of marriage, are against discrimination laws including gays, and basically want to stack the law of the land as much against gay as possible.

    This is fundamentally un-American. These people want you to live by THEIR religious beliefs.


    I fail to see how most of this is relevant.

    Saying something unpleasant or controversial, or making a moral statement, does not rise to the level of bullying, much less a crime. Nor should it.

    And in any case, I fail to see how merely re-affirming already established law by saying "the first amendment exists" - as if a judge couldn't make that connection already - makes a law pro-bullying.
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    Nov 03, 2011 6:19 PM GMT
    Am I really the only one in the room that gives a shit about free speech... even (especially) speech I don't agree with?
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    Nov 03, 2011 6:40 PM GMT
    I'm confused by this one. MI's Senate passed an anti-bullying bill without enumeration; no listing of characteristics (gender, race, sexual orientation, etc.) by which a real anti-bullying bill would be able to stick, prompting the Dems to vote against it?

    MI's Republican Senate just trumped the Dem. minority by getting them to vote against an anti-bullying bill. The Dems didn't vote in favor of the bill because it doesn't (curtail) free speech for anyone looking to bully a peer if the bully hides behind "religious or moral viewpoints." In other words, the bill would protect nobody against bullying, but that doesn't matter to the Reps. The Reps look like they're fighting for equality when they're actually allowing bullying to thrive unabated.

    Well played, sociopathic Republicans, well played.
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    Nov 03, 2011 6:43 PM GMT
    The whole discussion assumes gays are powerless little waifs... You and your "bully" have exactly the same legal powers. So long as all he is doing is speaking to you, it's protected. Don't like it? SPEAK BACK! He calls you a fag? Call him a bigoted shitwhale. He says it's against the Bible? Tell him you don't read fairytales. He says you're going to hell? Tell him "not til I've fucked your mom!"

    When did gays lose their voice??
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    Nov 03, 2011 6:43 PM GMT
    299641_10150367446918357_768728356_81868
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    Nov 03, 2011 6:48 PM GMT
    I just gotta say:


    DON'TCHYA KNOW!

    That is all.

    but for realz: fuck bullying. Inorite?
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    Nov 03, 2011 6:48 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Larkin_PLR saidAm I really the only one in the room that gives a shit about free speech... even (especially) speech I don't agree with?


    In this thread - besides me - yes.



    Another lie from the right. ;) Of course you're not the only ones concerned with free speech - does this mean that you don't think bullying should be against the rules? This is a conduct code in a school, not a limitation on free expression in the public square. So all of your First Amendment concerns are a little out of place, as is the "fire in a crowded theatre" response.

    "MI Senate legalizes anti-gay bullying" is an inflammatory title, no doubt. I won't defend it. But I will explain the problem with what was passed.

    What you both seem to be missing is that this bill was crafted with a loophole that exempts conduct from being called bullying if such a restriction would "prohibit expression of religious or moral viewpoints". Therefore, any comment directed to a gay kid will be ok if the accused claims it's consistent with his religion.

    Let me give you an example: Calling a kid a "condemned-to-hell sodomite who should be put to death" cannot be found to be bullying, because this expression is in line with the Christian faith and scripture.

    Thus the legislation has de facto protected such conduct from being found to be bullying (and this leads to the over-the-top title of this thread). The loophole has protected all such conduct explicitly. Any morality will defend you from a bullying charge, actually, not just religious ones. So a kid can say, "Well, my moral view of the world is that fags deserve to get pounded," and his conduct is somehow ok.

    When you ask the bill's sponsor:
    "Asked if he thinks the religious provision could, for example, be used to exempt a student who tells a gay classmate he is going to go to hell, Jones said, "I don't believe for one minute that is the intent of this legislation."

    So, it's not the intentof the legislation? But if it happens, oh well?

    Don't hop on the "defend the GOP" train here, guys. This legislation expressly protects religion-based bullying from the law. That's not a good thing. It's just a sloppily (ie, pandering, whiny-victimized-Christianists) written piece of legislation.
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    Nov 03, 2011 6:51 PM GMT
    Larkin_PLR saidAm I really the only one in the room that gives a shit about free speech... even (especially) speech I don't agree with?


    You cannot possibly be that naive. You know, or you should know, what this Republican bill really allows.

    I'm not worried about it b/c this pig won't fly.
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    Nov 03, 2011 6:52 PM GMT
    Larkin_PLR saidThe whole discussion assumes gays are powerless little waifs... You and your "bully" have exactly the same legal powers. So long as all he is doing is speaking to you, it's protected. Don't like it? SPEAK BACK! He calls you a fag? Call him a bigoted shitwhale. He says it's against the Bible? Tell him you don't read fairytales. He says you're going to hell? Tell him "not til I've fucked your mom!"

    When did gays lose their voice??


    And when it's 5 on 1 and the kid is outweighed by 20 pounds (each) and can't win the physical fight that's going to happen when he says that? Then what? You going to be there to defend him? Every time? All of the kids in every school? And why should a gay kid have to fight just to go to fucking school?? He's trying to get an education; he's not in some gladiator training camp.

    More specifically - do you think there should be any codes of conduct in school at all?
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    Nov 03, 2011 6:52 PM GMT
    QUOTE AUTHOR GOES HERESo a kid can say, "Well, my moral view of the world is that fags deserve to get pounded," and his conduct is somehow ok..


    You're right. Someone can say whatever he wants: speaking is not a crime.

    Don't like what someone says? Speak back.
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    Nov 03, 2011 6:54 PM GMT
    Larkin_PLR saidThe whole discussion assumes gays are powerless little waifs... You and your "bully" have exactly the same legal powers. So long as all he is doing is speaking to you, it's protected. Don't like it? SPEAK BACK! He calls you a fag? Call him a bigoted shitwhale. He says it's against the Bible? Tell him you don't read fairytales. He says you're going to hell? Tell him "not til I've fucked your mom!"

    When did gays lose their voice??


    Your post says a lot about you. Yes, you are as naive as you appear.

    You assume that all children in the 5-13 age group are wise beyond their years. To children, words can be as painful as fists.
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    Nov 03, 2011 6:54 PM GMT
    torrentprime saidAnd when it's 5 on 1 and the kid is outweighed by 20 pounds (each) and can't win the physical fight that's going to happen when he says that? Then what? You going to be there to defend him? Every time? All of the kids in every school? And why should a gay kid have to fight just to go to fucking school?? He's trying to get an education; he's not in some gladiator training camp.

    More specifically - do you think there should be any codes of conduct in school at all?


    As tough as that situation is - and I've been in it, believe me - until someone actually commits a crime, a crime hasn't happened.

    Speaking =/= violence. When violence happens, that becomes actionable.
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    Nov 03, 2011 6:57 PM GMT
    Larkin_PLR said
    QUOTE AUTHOR GOES HERESo a kid can say, "Well, my moral view of the world is that fags deserve to get pounded," and his conduct is somehow ok..


    You're right. Someone can say whatever he wants: speaking is not a crime.

    Don't like what someone says? Speak back.


    We're not talking crimes; we're talking about school codes of conduct. You don't think schools can make something against the rules? So a teacher has no power to, say, tell a kid to be quiet in class, and if s/he doesn't, they're going to the office? Schools are powerless to control their kids? They can never tell them "be quiet" or "stop calling that kid a nigger" or "The five of you, stop chanting 'FAGGOT' in that kid's face" or "turn your music down"? Schools should have no power to maintain discipline and a learning environment? It's full-on Lord of the Flies time in all public schools?
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    Nov 03, 2011 6:57 PM GMT
    Menacing is not the same as speaking. Fighting is not the same as speaking. Violence is not the same as speaking. Even harassment is not the same as speaking... there are boundaries here.

    Many of you are objecting to situations that the law does not allow for.
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    Nov 03, 2011 7:03 PM GMT

    Larkin_PLR saidMenacing is not the same as speaking. Fighting is not the same as speaking. Violence is not the same as speaking. Even harassment is not the same as speaking... there are boundaries here.

    Many of you are objecting to situations that the law does not allow for.


    Dude - that's precisely our point. This law does allow for those things, because the law explicitly protects "religious and moral" based viewpoints and expression. "I wasn't menacing him, teacher, I was witnessing to him!" "I was sharing my Christian view in a loud voice in his face!"

    The problem is not some anti-free speech animus or even (from a Democratic POV) a not-strong-enough anti-bullying law. The problem here is that the law has protected bad conduct. It's badly written, my friend.
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    Nov 03, 2011 7:05 PM GMT
    torrentprime said
    We're not talking crimes; we're talking about school codes of conduct. You don't think schools can make something against the rules?


    That's not what I said.

    I don't think schools can make the utterance of moral value statements against the rules.

    There are a range of laws and policies that actually handle bullying, harassment, violence, etc etc.

    And I fail to see how acknowledging that people can still hold a value and speak it out loud - which is not the same as harassment from a legal point of view - amounts to "pro bullying".