Productivity has risen but workers' pay has not.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 04, 2011 8:46 PM GMT
    312188_226878297376304_124240550973413_6

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 04, 2011 8:52 PM GMT
    But at the same time, workers who are in fear of losing their jobs may have become more productive. Based off of my job, I saw people become more productive after some people were let go. Some examples I noticed:

    *They stopped wasting time on the internet (for example, facebook all-day).
    *They stopped hanging out getting coffee for the first thirty minutes of work.
    *They stopped going on break to do their make-up when they first got to work.
    *Thirty minute conversations of Jersey Shore disappeared.
    *And they actually worked up until the last few minutes of their shift.
  • dancedancekj

    Posts: 1761

    Nov 04, 2011 9:08 PM GMT
    Well, how long does that burst of productivity last?
    Americans work harder and more productive than anywhere else in the world. We take less time off for maternity/paternity leave, vacation time, have less sick days. And we're still motherfucking unhappy and poor. What gives?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 04, 2011 9:27 PM GMT
    dancedancekj saidWell, how long does that burst of productivity last?
    Americans work harder and more productive than anywhere else in the world. We take less time off for maternity/paternity leave, vacation time, have less sick days. And we're still motherfucking unhappy and poor. What gives?


    Dude I've been saying this for months, since I've joined thee forms and discussed this issue. As you can see again however southbeach comes in, says a bunch of stuff without addressing ANYTHING and then runs off.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 04, 2011 9:28 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 saidProductivity has risen but workers' pay has not.

    And the Democrat / NEA controlled public education system fails once again.

    Please take a few night courses on how to read a graph.

    Thank you.

    Oh, and thank you for not posting your topic title IN ALL CAPS. icon_razz.gif


    I'm reading it just fine. It rose a little. Do you think you win the argument? Hardly. It doesn't change the point the graph is making.

    And now let's see how much the CEOs are paid:
    ceo-pay+graph.png
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 04, 2011 9:30 PM GMT
    Stan904 said
    southbeach1500 saidProductivity has risen but workers' pay has not.

    And the Democrat / NEA controlled public education system fails once again.

    Please take a few night courses on how to read a graph.

    Thank you.

    Oh, and thank you for not posting your topic title IN ALL CAPS. icon_razz.gif


    I'm reading it just fine. It rose a little. Do you think you win the argument? Hardly. It doesn't change the point the graph is making.

    And now let's see how much the CEOs are paid:
    ceo-pay+graph.png


    What caused that universal drop in the end of 01?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 04, 2011 9:38 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Stan904 said
    I'm reading it just fine. It rose a little.



    Your topic's headline:

    Productivity has risen but workers' pay has not.

    So either you don't know how to read a graph, or your headline is a LIE.

    Which is it?


    Weak argument is weak.
  • dancedancekj

    Posts: 1761

    Nov 04, 2011 9:45 PM GMT
    Proportionally, shouldn't the compensation, wage, and standard of living have risen along with the productivity? If I make bigger gains in business, production, and the bottom line should rise. Shouldn't everyone be seeing that follow to a greater proportion?
  • nanidesukedo

    Posts: 1036

    Nov 04, 2011 9:47 PM GMT
    dancedancekj saidProportionally, shouldn't the compensation, wage, and standard of living have risen along with the productivity? If I make bigger gains in business, production, and the bottom line should rise. Shouldn't everyone be seeing that follow to a greater proportion?



    Silly, silly...if that were to happen, CEO's wouldn't be able to buy their third yacht, or their fourth home, or that gold drinking bowl for precious little "fluffy." I mean, it's a good lesson to have factory workers living day to day with their pay and struggling to make ends meet. If we were to pay them more, we'd have to take money away from the struggling CEO's....and that's just socialism.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 04, 2011 9:54 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    dancedancekj saidProportionally, shouldn't the compensation, wage, and standard of living have risen along with the productivity? If I make bigger gains in business, production, and the bottom line should rise. Shouldn't everyone be seeing that follow to a greater proportion?


    No.

    Move to Greece if you want that.


    waiwaiwaiwaiwaiwaiwait a minute. Are you admitting that not only does hardwork NOT breed wealth in America, but it SHOULDN'T?



    It's nice to see you finally show your true colors.
  • nanidesukedo

    Posts: 1036

    Nov 04, 2011 10:08 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    DoomsDayAlpaca said
    southbeach1500 said
    dancedancekj saidProportionally, shouldn't the compensation, wage, and standard of living have risen along with the productivity? If I make bigger gains in business, production, and the bottom line should rise. Shouldn't everyone be seeing that follow to a greater proportion?


    No.

    Move to Greece if you want that.


    waiwaiwaiwaiwaiwaiwait a minute. Are you admitting that not only does hardwork NOT breed wealth in America, but it SHOULDN'T?



    It's nice to see you finally show your true colors.


    No.... Hard work enables upward mobility. If you had ever had a real job in your life for more than a few months you would understand this.

    A person starting out as a Junior Systems Analyst is paid what a Junior Systems Analyst is worth. If that person becomes more value to the company, he or she then advances to the Senior Systems Analyst position and is paid more. That's how it works.


    Yes, but not everyone can hold such high ranking positions...the lower ranking positions must be held - upward mobility is not always possible... What must be considered is that many people make less than a living wage and this is overlooked for the sake of "company" profit.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 04, 2011 10:12 PM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    DoomsDayAlpaca said
    southbeach1500 said
    dancedancekj saidProportionally, shouldn't the compensation, wage, and standard of living have risen along with the productivity? If I make bigger gains in business, production, and the bottom line should rise. Shouldn't everyone be seeing that follow to a greater proportion?


    No.

    Move to Greece if you want that.


    waiwaiwaiwaiwaiwaiwait a minute. Are you admitting that not only does hardwork NOT breed wealth in America, but it SHOULDN'T?



    It's nice to see you finally show your true colors.


    No.... Hard work enables upward mobility. If you had ever had a real job in your life for more than a few months you would understand this.

    A person starting out as a Junior Systems Analyst is paid what a Junior Systems Analyst is worth. If that person becomes more valuable to the company, he or she then advances to the Senior Systems Analyst position and is paid more. That's how it works.
    You might want to look up the definition of 'upward mobility'. icon_wink.gif
    Alpaca is as 'correct' as you think you are.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 04, 2011 10:55 PM GMT
    Um, harder work != more productive work necessarily

    http://blogs.wsj.com/brussels/2011/02/14/busting-north-south-stereotypes/For example, workers in which EU countries work the longest weeks? Tops are the Greeks, who work on average 42 hours a week. Spain and Portugal aren’t far behind with a work week of around 39 hours. And where is the shortest work week in the EU? That would be in the Netherlands, under 31 hours a week.

    Germans on average work just under 36 hours a week, significantly less than the hard-working Greeks they are now bailing out.


    More Greeks are in agriculture which has longer hours. And their labor is not compensated by the market as much:

    same postWhat these numbers show is that the southern euro zone’s problems aren’t a result of workers there not working hard enough. The problem instead is lower productivity in the southern rim: In 2009, Greek workers generated just €18.50 per hour worked; for Spain and Portugal, the number is €24.40 and €13.80, respectively.

    Dutch workers generated €39.50 and German workers €38.70. Yes, the gap is huge.


    However, the main point of the OP remains valid--as measured, US workers are vastly more productive and yet their compensation has not grown proportionally. However, the rate of productivity growth and the income growth of the top 1% and corporate profits are suspiciously concordant.icon_rolleyes.gif

  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Nov 05, 2011 1:27 AM GMT
    Stan904 said312188_226878297376304_124240550973413_6



    THIS is why people are in the Streets
    It's hit a sticking point where we cannot take anymore
    You notice the time this all started?
    The exact time the Reagan Revolution took hold where Corporations became a "good" thing and like in the original Wall Street "Greed was Good"
    Well Americans were shafted .... government sided with the 1% and redistributed the entire wealth of the country
    .... and how did we cope?
    Wives and mothers HAD to go to work
    The decades prior to the 80's women stayed at home ....
    WE were told women working was a Good thing ... yeah
    But not because they HAD to to feed their kids
    Then the next was .... we took on huge amts of debt
    Credit card debt
    College loan debt mortgage debt
    The rate of saving in this country became negative for decades
    Now there is nothing left ... they picked the pockets of America clean
    America has defaulted .... foreclosures are everywhere
    There are No More safety nets

    The Arab spring was revolution against political tyranny
    We are protesting against economic tyranny


  • nanidesukedo

    Posts: 1036

    Nov 05, 2011 2:55 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    nanidesukedo said
    southbeach1500 said
    DoomsDayAlpaca said
    southbeach1500 said
    dancedancekj saidProportionally, shouldn't the compensation, wage, and standard of living have risen along with the productivity? If I make bigger gains in business, production, and the bottom line should rise. Shouldn't everyone be seeing that follow to a greater proportion?


    No.

    Move to Greece if you want that.


    waiwaiwaiwaiwaiwaiwait a minute. Are you admitting that not only does hardwork NOT breed wealth in America, but it SHOULDN'T?



    It's nice to see you finally show your true colors.


    No.... Hard work enables upward mobility. If you had ever had a real job in your life for more than a few months you would understand this.

    A person starting out as a Junior Systems Analyst is paid what a Junior Systems Analyst is worth. If that person becomes more value to the company, he or she then advances to the Senior Systems Analyst position and is paid more. That's how it works.


    Yes, but not everyone can hold such high ranking positions...the lower ranking positions must be held - upward mobility is not always possible... What must be considered is that many people make less than a living wage and this is overlooked for the sake of "company" profit.


    Newsflash: There's a reason that small businesses are the main driver of our economy. People who've usually hit the ceiling in the corporate world take their experience and either start their own businesses or go work for a small business. I do understand this is a totally "out there" concept to the liberal mind.


    You are delusional if you think everyone can start a small business and be successful... Someone still has to do the janitorial positions, pick up the trash, fry the french fries, make the burritos, work to make clothing...

    You are hilarious. I love how, when challenged, you immediately resort to childish insults (which, btw, I'm more than happy to return).
  • nanidesukedo

    Posts: 1036

    Nov 05, 2011 2:59 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    nanidesukedo said
    southbeach1500 said
    Newsflash: There's a reason that small businesses are the main driver of our economy. People who've usually hit the ceiling in the corporate world take their experience and either start their own businesses or go work for a small business. I do understand this is a totally "out there" concept to the liberal mind.


    You are delusional if you think everyone can start a small business and be successful... Someone still has to do the janitorial positions, pick up the trash, fry the french fries, make the burritos, work to make clothing...

    You are hilarious. I love how, when challenged, you immediately resort to childish insults (which, btw, I'm more than happy to return).


    I wrote:

    People who've usually hit the ceiling in the corporate world take their experience and either start their own businesses or go work for a small business.

    Now, if you want to be a janitor your whole life, that's your choice. And you'll be paid a minimal wage, but it's YOUR choice.



    wrong, again... There is a great theory out there that states that, even if you educated everyone in the world a great deal equally, you are still going to have the "less educated." (It's a relativity issue). The relatively less educated are always gonna have to fill these certain jobs...Not everyone can start working hard and be a rocket scientist or a doctor...Someone has to be the janitor - it is an essential job.
  • nanidesukedo

    Posts: 1036

    Nov 05, 2011 3:03 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    nanidesukedo saidNot everyone can start working hard and be a rocket scientist or a doctor...Someone has to be the janitor - it is an essential job.


    And someone who is lacking the intelligence or ambition or experience or each of these and stays a janitor all his life will be paid accordingly. It's insane to pay a janitor $100,000 a year after they've been a janitor for 30 years, though the union thugs would of course disagree.



    No one states they should be paid that much - you are arguing extremes... Should they be paid a living wage? Yes.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 05, 2011 3:15 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    DoomsDayAlpaca said
    southbeach1500 said
    dancedancekj saidProportionally, shouldn't the compensation, wage, and standard of living have risen along with the productivity? If I make bigger gains in business, production, and the bottom line should rise. Shouldn't everyone be seeing that follow to a greater proportion?


    No.

    Move to Greece if you want that.


    waiwaiwaiwaiwaiwaiwait a minute. Are you admitting that not only does hardwork NOT breed wealth in America, but it SHOULDN'T?



    It's nice to see you finally show your true colors.


    No.... Hard work enables upward mobility. If you had ever had a real job in your life for more than a few months you would understand this.

    A person starting out as a Junior Systems Analyst is paid what a Junior Systems Analyst is worth. If that person becomes more valuable to the company, he or she then advances to the Senior Systems Analyst position and is paid more. That's how it works.


    Very true, you pay your dues if you wanna get somewhere in life.


  • nanidesukedo

    Posts: 1036

    Nov 05, 2011 3:25 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    nanidesukedo said
    southbeach1500 said
    nanidesukedo saidNot everyone can start working hard and be a rocket scientist or a doctor...Someone has to be the janitor - it is an essential job.


    And someone who is lacking the intelligence or ambition or experience or each of these and stays a janitor all his life will be paid accordingly. It's insane to pay a janitor $100,000 a year after they've been a janitor for 30 years, though the union thugs would of course disagree.



    No one states they should be paid that much - you are arguing extremes... Should they be paid a living wage? Yes.



    They are. That's what the Democrat's darling the minimum wage is for. And then of course, there's food stamps. Great programs that are designed to keep people enslaved in the government dependency net and keep voting Democrat.

    Is it enough for them to afford cable TV, high speed internet, an IPod, and IPhone, microwave ovens and more than a single room apartment? Maybe not (depending on where they live), but that's what happens when you make the decision not to take risks, educate yourself and change your economic situation.



    Again, educating one's self is good on an individual basis, but if the population does it as a whole - someone is still gonna end up in the menial labor position - they are essential positions that have to be filled by someone!

    Also, As much as you think foodstamps enslave people, I know many, many, many hard working people who would not be able to survive without foodstamps - I don't call them enslaved - I call them saved. Are there those that abuse foodstamps and are lazy? Of course. To deny, however, that there are many hardworking individuals out there who rely on foodstamps for survival is just cruel.
  • nanidesukedo

    Posts: 1036

    Nov 05, 2011 3:31 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    nanidesukedo said
    southbeach1500 said
    They are. That's what the Democrat's darling the minimum wage is for. And then of course, there's food stamps. Great programs that are designed to keep people enslaved in the government dependency net and keep voting Democrat.

    Is it enough for them to afford cable TV, high speed internet, an IPod, and IPhone, microwave ovens and more than a single room apartment? Maybe not (depending on where they live), but that's what happens when you make the decision not to take risks, educate yourself and change your economic situation.



    Again, educating one's self is good on an individual basis, but if the population does it as a whole - someone is still gonna end up in the menial labor position - they are essential positions that have to be filled by someone!

    Also, As much as you think foodstamps enslave people, I know many, many, many hard working people who would not be able to survive without foodstamps - I don't call them enslaved - I call them saved. Are there those that abuse foodstamps and are lazy? Of course. To deny, however, that there are many hardworking individuals out there who rely on foodstamps for survival is just cruel.



    The more educated the population as a whole is, the more innovation and the higher the standard of living for the entire population.

    As for food stamps, I suppose you are referring to someone else who stated that "there are not hardworking individuals who rely on foodstamps for survival" because I certainly did not.


    You called them enslaved by the government system...Which gives a very negative connotation and image to and of the people using them.
  • nanidesukedo

    Posts: 1036

    Nov 05, 2011 3:47 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    nanidesukedo said
    You called them enslaved by the government system...Which gives a very negative connotation and image to and of the people using them.


    Of course. Because they are. In some families, generations have been.



    I hate the term enslaved...if you really are going to use it, make sure you make sure you only specify that "some" are.

    also, if you are going to use it, it's only fair to say that while it can act as a demotivating agent for some of those that use it, it doesn't make it invalid or "enslaving" to many of the other people that do.
  • dancedancekj

    Posts: 1761

    Nov 05, 2011 4:19 AM GMT
    CHRISTOPHER34 said
    southbeach1500 said
    DoomsDayAlpaca said
    southbeach1500 said
    dancedancekj saidProportionally, shouldn't the compensation, wage, and standard of living have risen along with the productivity? If I make bigger gains in business, production, and the bottom line should rise. Shouldn't everyone be seeing that follow to a greater proportion?


    No.

    Move to Greece if you want that.


    waiwaiwaiwaiwaiwaiwait a minute. Are you admitting that not only does hardwork NOT breed wealth in America, but it SHOULDN'T?



    It's nice to see you finally show your true colors.


    No.... Hard work enables upward mobility. If you had ever had a real job in your life for more than a few months you would understand this.

    A person starting out as a Junior Systems Analyst is paid what a Junior Systems Analyst is worth. If that person becomes more valuable to the company, he or she then advances to the Senior Systems Analyst position and is paid more. That's how it works.


    Very true, you pay your dues if you wanna get somewhere in life.




    1) No CEO is worth what most of them are getting paid right now. That kind of fee should go to cardiologists, oncologists, nurses, teachers, social workers - people that are being grossly underpaid in comparison. Sooo the CEO makes some deals that makes hundreds of thousands of dollars. Just numbers at the end of the day. The cardiologist saves someone's life, literally. The teacher is able to educate the child who discovers a fuel source that is completely limitless. Why not pay them what they're worth? The CEO is technically just a moneypusher anyway. Yes, he makes some veeerry important decisions in his executive office, but it's not like he's doing brain surgery.

    2) In an ideal world, you would be able to advance as easily as if it were some kind of board game. Forgetting that there are hundreds of reasons to be passed over for promotion, personal politics within a company, no room in the budget to advance a person, and multiple other variables that do in fact prevent people from advancing in their salary.
    Studying hard, going to a good college, graduating with a useful degree, getting a good job and working hard may simply mean you won't be fired right away. If it were so easy to work hard and advance, we'd all be CEO's by now.

    3) Sometimes you pay your dues. And you get screwed over, since your promotion was just given to the daughter of the VP of operations. You put in your time, only to see your pension go up in smoke since someone quite literally gambled away your money. You stay loyal to your company, only to have them let you go because they're moving your job overseas.

    Oh, and I say this as someone who has worked their ass off, is extremely valuable to their company, is decently paid, but still attributes maybe 30% of his success to random luck and other factors out of his control.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 05, 2011 5:25 AM GMT

    nanidesukedo, SB only argues in extremes; it's how he thinks. icon_wink.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 05, 2011 6:19 AM GMT
    dancedancekj saidWell, how long does that burst of productivity last?
    Americans work harder and more productive than anywhere else in the world. We take less time off for maternity/paternity leave, vacation time, have less sick days. And we're still motherfucking unhappy and poor. What gives?


    According to the GDP standard yes.. Im pretty sure Asians work many more hours than Westerners do, but what they produce is of less value and they get paid less and thats why they say the "west" is more productive... in terms of labour, i think thats not true
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 05, 2011 6:22 AM GMT
    q1w2e3 saidUm, harder work != more productive work necessarily

    http://blogs.wsj.com/brussels/2011/02/14/busting-north-south-stereotypes/For example, workers in which EU countries work the longest weeks? Tops are the Greeks, who work on average 42 hours a week. Spain and Portugal aren’t far behind with a work week of around 39 hours. And where is the shortest work week in the EU? That would be in the Netherlands, under 31 hours a week.

    Germans on average work just under 36 hours a week, significantly less than the hard-working Greeks they are now bailing out.


    More Greeks are in agriculture which has longer hours. And their labor is not compensated by the market as much:

    same postWhat these numbers show is that the southern euro zone’s problems aren’t a result of workers there not working hard enough. The problem instead is lower productivity in the southern rim: In 2009, Greek workers generated just €18.50 per hour worked; for Spain and Portugal, the number is €24.40 and €13.80, respectively.

    Dutch workers generated €39.50 and German workers €38.70. Yes, the gap is huge.


    However, the main point of the OP remains valid--as measured, US workers are vastly more productive and yet their compensation has not grown proportionally. However, the rate of productivity growth and the income growth of the top 1% and corporate profits are suspiciously concordant.icon_rolleyes.gif



    I agree there is certainly a mismatch between "work" and "output" because of the differences in monetary measurement.... more output definitely does not mean more hardworking... in fact, I know lazy people with better salaries than hardworking people.. simply because the nature of the work they do is considered more "valuable"

    And like q said.. the point of the OP is def valid... if the US worker works more, but his pay stays the same... there must be something wrong lol