The Communist Manifesto

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    Nov 06, 2011 4:02 AM GMT
    Section II of the Communist Manifesto outlines 10 demands. The Democrats want to take us in this direction. Again these are points to think about when voting next year. You can agree or disagree, I really dont care.

    1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
    3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
    5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
    6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
    8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
    10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and combination of education with industrial production
  • KissTheSky

    Posts: 1981

    Nov 06, 2011 5:11 AM GMT
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    Nov 06, 2011 5:16 AM GMT
    " Free education for all children in public schools."

    Well, now there's a good idea. In our opinions, the rest can be tossed.

    -us guys

    You take a good idea, no matter who spouts it, and you use it.

    PS Why did the Canadian cross the road?









    ...to get to the median.
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    Nov 06, 2011 3:19 PM GMT
    I'd like Christopher to show us where in the Democratic Party Platform these ideas are being floated as policy. icon_lol.gif
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    Nov 06, 2011 3:39 PM GMT
    Christian73 saidI'd like Christopher to show us where in the Democratic Party Platform these ideas are being floated as policy. icon_lol.gif



    Well Mr McCarthy er CHRISTOPHER? icon_wink.gif
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Nov 06, 2011 4:25 PM GMT
    CHRISTOPHER34
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    Nov 06, 2011 6:38 PM GMT
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto#II._Proletarians_and_Communists

    I see you're smart enough to copy and paste.
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    Nov 06, 2011 6:44 PM GMT
    Fountains saidhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto#II._Proletarians_and_Communists

    I see you're smart enough to copy and paste.


    You thought I made it all up? Of course I copied and pasted (not from that site though). Its in the Communist Manifesto. Read it.
  • KissTheSky

    Posts: 1981

    Nov 06, 2011 6:48 PM GMT
    CHRISTOPHER34 saidSection II of the Communist Manifesto outlines 10 demands. The Democrats want to take us in this direction. Again these are points to think about when voting next year. You can agree or disagree, I really dont care.

    1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
    3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
    5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
    6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
    8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
    10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and combination of education with industrial production


    So you pasted something in a message that sounds scary... but what does this have to do with Democrats?
    Do you have any evidence that connects the two? Or are you just putting labels on unrelated things in hopes that the simple-minded will connect them somehow?
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    Nov 06, 2011 6:53 PM GMT
    KissTheSky said
    CHRISTOPHER34 saidSection II of the Communist Manifesto outlines 10 demands. The Democrats want to take us in this direction. Again these are points to think about when voting next year. You can agree or disagree, I really dont care.

    1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
    3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
    5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
    6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
    8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
    10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and combination of education with industrial production


    So you pasted something in a message that sounds scary... but what does this have to do with Democrats?
    Do you have any evidence that connects the two? Or are you just putting labels on unrelated things in hopes that the simple-minded will connect them somehow?


    Go to Democrats and Socialism thread. Watch the 5 videos and compare them to this list. Watch Obama where he says that "fairness is more important than revenue". Compare it to number 2 and 3. If the Dems could get away with it, you would be living under all these circumstances.

  • KissTheSky

    Posts: 1981

    Nov 06, 2011 7:28 PM GMT
    CHRISTOPHER34 said
    KissTheSky said
    CHRISTOPHER34 saidSection II of the Communist Manifesto outlines 10 demands. The Democrats want to take us in this direction. Again these are points to think about when voting next year. You can agree or disagree, I really dont care.

    1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
    3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
    5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
    6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
    8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
    10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and combination of education with industrial production


    So you pasted something in a message that sounds scary... but what does this have to do with Democrats?
    Do you have any evidence that connects the two? Or are you just putting labels on unrelated things in hopes that the simple-minded will connect them somehow?


    Go to Democrats and Socialism thread. Watch the 5 videos and compare them to this list. Watch Obama where he says that "fairness is more important than revenue". Compare it to number 2 and 3. If the Dems could get away with it, you would be living under all these circumstances.



    Obama does not say that "fairness is more important than revenue" in this clip. You are making this up. (The closest thing he said is "I want to make sure our tax system is fair.")
    You also made up the caption for the video, which says Obama is an "admitted Socialist." He has never said anything of the sort.
    So you've made up two things in one thread.
    Why don't you stick to the facts to make your point, or express opinions. But don't make things up and claim they are true.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 06, 2011 7:31 PM GMT
    KissTheSky said
    CHRISTOPHER34 said
    KissTheSky said
    CHRISTOPHER34 saidSection II of the Communist Manifesto outlines 10 demands. The Democrats want to take us in this direction. Again these are points to think about when voting next year. You can agree or disagree, I really dont care.

    1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
    3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
    5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
    6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
    8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
    10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and combination of education with industrial production


    So you pasted something in a message that sounds scary... but what does this have to do with Democrats?
    Do you have any evidence that connects the two? Or are you just putting labels on unrelated things in hopes that the simple-minded will connect them somehow?


    Go to Democrats and Socialism thread. Watch the 5 videos and compare them to this list. Watch Obama where he says that So you're assuming the unemployed don't want to work? . Compare it to number 2 and 3. If the Dems could get away with it, you would be living under all these circumstances.



    Obama does not say that "fairness is more important than revenue" in this clip. You are making this up. (The closest thing he said is "I want to make sure our tax system is fair.")
    You also made up the caption for the video, which says Obama is an "admitted Socialist." He has never said anything of the sort.
    So you've made up two things in one thread.
    Why don't you stick to the facts to make your point, or express opinions. But don't make things up and claim they are true.


    Watch the video again and listen to Charles Gibsons question about the Capital Gains tax. Obama goes off about fairness being important. It didn't matter to him that more revenue came in during the Clinton administration, because of the decrease in the capital gain tax. Therefore he values fairness over incoming revenue. I call that socialism.

  • creature

    Posts: 5197

    Nov 06, 2011 7:33 PM GMT
    KissTheSky said
    CHRISTOPHER34 said
    KissTheSky said
    CHRISTOPHER34 saidSection II of the Communist Manifesto outlines 10 demands. The Democrats want to take us in this direction. Again these are points to think about when voting next year. You can agree or disagree, I really dont care.

    1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
    2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
    3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
    4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
    5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
    6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
    7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
    8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
    9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
    10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and combination of education with industrial production


    So you pasted something in a message that sounds scary... but what does this have to do with Democrats?
    Do you have any evidence that connects the two? Or are you just putting labels on unrelated things in hopes that the simple-minded will connect them somehow?


    Go to Democrats and Socialism thread. Watch the 5 videos and compare them to this list. Watch Obama where he says that So you're assuming the unemployed don't want to work? . Compare it to number 2 and 3. If the Dems could get away with it, you would be living under all these circumstances.



    Obama does not say that "fairness is more important than revenue" in this clip. You are making this up. (The closest thing he said is "I want to make sure our tax system is fair.")
    You also made up the caption for the video, which says Obama is an "admitted Socialist." He has never said anything of the sort.
    So you've made up two things in one thread.
    Why don't you stick to the facts to make your point, or express opinions. But don't make things up and claim they are true.


    And this is why nobody can take him seriously. Though he is entertaining. Like a mechanical chimp.

    charley%2Bchimp.jpg
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    Nov 06, 2011 8:53 PM GMT
    GQjock said CHRISTOPHER34
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    in sock form.
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    Nov 06, 2011 9:08 PM GMT
    CHRISTOPHER34 said
    Fountains saidhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto#II._Proletarians_and_Communists

    I see you're smart enough to copy and paste.


    You thought I made it all up? Of course I copied and pasted (not from that site though). Its in the Communist Manifesto. Read it.


    Of course it's in the manifesto. I was merely pointing to the fact that your understanding of the material at hand doesn't seem to actually exceed a cursory reading of a wikipedia page (something you keep proving with every post you make, I see). And for the record, the manifesto is probably the weakest thing that Marx has written (Capital vol. 1 being the strongest despite the fact that in general all of Marx's critiques are kind of out dated). I think if you're going to go in that line of critique, I think Mikhail Bakunin and Peter Kropotkin had much better analyses when it came to solving the problem of capitalism. But alas, that's another tradition and we're debating communism (which I reject for the record) not anarchism.

    Although from your citation and apparent understanding of Marxist critiques of capitalism, I'm unconvinced of your having read, or perhaps more accurately having read but misunderstood Marx.

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    Nov 06, 2011 9:10 PM GMT
    Fountains said
    CHRISTOPHER34 said
    Fountains saidhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto#II._Proletarians_and_Communists

    I see you're smart enough to copy and paste.


    You thought I made it all up? Of course I copied and pasted (not from that site though). Its in the Communist Manifesto. Read it.


    Of course it's in the manifesto. And for the record, the manifesto is probably the weakest thing that Marx has written (Capital vol. 1 being the strongest despite the fact that in general all of Marx's critiques are kind of out dated). I think if you're going to go in that line of critique, I think Mikhail Bakunin and Peter Kropotkin had much better analyses when it came to solving the problem of capitalism. But alas, that's another tradition and we're debating communism (which I reject for the record) not anarchism.

    Although from your citation and apparent understanding of Marxist critiques of capitalism, I'm unconvinced of your having read, or perhaps more accurately having read but misunderstood Marx.



    Let me ask you this, Do you agree or disagree witht he points above?



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    Nov 06, 2011 9:28 PM GMT
    CHRISTOPHER34 said
    Fountains said
    CHRISTOPHER34 said
    Fountains saidhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto#II._Proletarians_and_Communists

    I see you're smart enough to copy and paste.


    You thought I made it all up? Of course I copied and pasted (not from that site though). Its in the Communist Manifesto. Read it.


    Of course it's in the manifesto. And for the record, the manifesto is probably the weakest thing that Marx has written (Capital vol. 1 being the strongest despite the fact that in general all of Marx's critiques are kind of out dated). I think if you're going to go in that line of critique, I think Mikhail Bakunin and Peter Kropotkin had much better analyses when it came to solving the problem of capitalism. But alas, that's another tradition and we're debating communism (which I reject for the record) not anarchism.

    Although from your citation and apparent understanding of Marxist critiques of capitalism, I'm unconvinced of your having read, or perhaps more accurately having read but misunderstood Marx.



    Let me ask you this, Do you agree or disagree witht he points above?





    Let us ask you: Do you understand Marx, his critique of capitalism, and the historic and economic moment which gave rise to it? Do you understand why a communist society as Marx envisioned it has never existed?
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    Nov 06, 2011 9:34 PM GMT
    CHRISTOPHER34 said
    Fountains said
    CHRISTOPHER34 said
    Fountains saidhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto#II._Proletarians_and_Communists

    I see you're smart enough to copy and paste.


    You thought I made it all up? Of course I copied and pasted (not from that site though). Its in the Communist Manifesto. Read it.


    Of course it's in the manifesto. And for the record, the manifesto is probably the weakest thing that Marx has written (Capital vol. 1 being the strongest despite the fact that in general all of Marx's critiques are kind of out dated). I think if you're going to go in that line of critique, I think Mikhail Bakunin and Peter Kropotkin had much better analyses when it came to solving the problem of capitalism. But alas, that's another tradition and we're debating communism (which I reject for the record) not anarchism.

    Although from your citation and apparent understanding of Marxist critiques of capitalism, I'm unconvinced of your having read, or perhaps more accurately having read but misunderstood Marx.



    Let me ask you this, Do you agree or disagree witht he points above?





    Communism has been, and will always be a complete and utter failure. But to answer your question, there are several of these theses that I do agree with and others that I have dismissed. There are a number of reasons for this. But before I get into that let me begin by telling one of my favorite jokes:

    How many Marxists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

    In between working shifts, the custodial worker begins to reconsider his relationship to the dialectics of historical materialism. He realizes that his employers, the bourgeois owners of the means of production, have been generating capital based the extraction of surplus value from his labour. He organizes the rest of the custodial staff for the execution of a glorious coup d'etat and replaces his bourgeois masters with a bureaucratic class that are all too insistent that they will one day "wither away".

    The beginnings of this joke subtly harkens back to Mikhail Bakunin who was forcibly ejected from the international working men's association because of his rejection that any form of social justice could be achieved within the context of the nation state. He concluded that communism would only lead to something that was more authoritarian and more wasteful than capitalism ever was or would be.

    As such I reject communism because it essentially makes the nation state into one large corporation and centralizes domination within a single bureaucratic class. I also reject the "social democratic" project, or the notion of the welfare state because it foolishly tries to "make capitalism fair" when it will never be fair. Capitalism is a mode of production, an economic endeavour designed to produce things cheaply and efficiently (through the exploitation of others). With this as a given, to try and make it "more just" or to have "capitalism with a human face" is in essence an act of bad faith.