Why Americans won't do dirty jobs

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    Nov 11, 2011 12:17 PM GMT
    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/why-americans-wont-do-dirty-jobs-11092011.htmlIt’s a hard-to-resist syllogism: Dirty jobs are available; Americans won’t fill them; thus, Americans are too soft for dirty jobs. Why else would so many unemployed people turn down the opportunity to work during a recession? Of course, there’s an equally compelling obverse. Why should farmers and plant owners expect people to take a back-breaking seasonal job with low pay and no benefits just because they happen to be offering it? If no one wants an available job—especially in extreme times—maybe the fault doesn’t rest entirely with the people turning it down. Maybe the market is inefficient.
    ...
    “Agricultural labor is basically 100 percent an immigrant job category,” says Princeton University sociologist Doug Massey, who studies population migration. “Once an occupational category becomes dominated by immigrants, it becomes very difficult to erase the stigma.”

    Massey says Americans didn’t turn away from the work merely because it was hard or because of the pay but because they had come to think of it as beneath them. “It doesn’t have anything to do with the job itself,” he says. In other countries, citizens refuse to take jobs that Americans compete for. In Europe, Massey says, “auto manufacturing is an immigrant job category. Whereas in the States, it’s a native category.”
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    Nov 11, 2011 4:38 PM GMT
    Proof that the above haphazard and fact-free assessment doesn't reflect reality and that Americans WILL take on the "dirty jobs" when they are miraculously available and not being occupied by illegal workers:

    "POSTVILLE, Iowa — A raid by federal immigration officials at the nation’s largest kosher meatpacking plant may have resulted in as many as 700 arrests, immigration officials said Monday.Agents from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement entered the Agriprocessors Inc. complex in northeast Iowa Monday morning to execute a criminal search warrant for evidence relating to aggravated identity theft, fraudulent use of Social Security numbers and other crimes, said Tim Counts, a Midwest ICE spokesman.Agents are also executing a civil search warrant for people illegally in the United States, he said.Immigration officials told aides to Rep. Bruce Braley, D-Iowa, that they expect 600 to 700 arrests. About 1,000 to 1,050 people work at the plant, according to Iowa Workforce Development, the state’s employment services agency.Chuck Larson, a truck driver for Agriprocessing, was in the plant when the agents arrived. “There has to be 100 of them,” he said of the agents. Employment staffing agencies hired to fill the vacant positions noted that approximately 1,200 applications for employment were received as of May 24th. It is estimated that 300 to 400 positions will be filled with new applicants of a legal citizenship origin. The positions were noted as paying between $8.00 to $10.00 per hour on a non-union basis."---From the DesMoines Register - 5/22/2008

    Far more legal citizens applied for the job than what could even be accepted!
    The economy we are in now is even worse than when this happened.

    Time to look for some different wool.
  • kew1

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    Nov 11, 2011 4:47 PM GMT
    q1w2e3 said
    In Europe, Massey says, “auto manufacturing is an immigrant job category.


    Um , bullshit. Well, in the UK anyway & last time I looked we were part of Europe.
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    Nov 11, 2011 5:23 PM GMT
    I like the qoute someone posted in another thread from a cracked article "they force fed us the idea that if we didn't want to flip burgers for the rest of our lives then we needed to go to college. Now that we've gone to college, have diplomas, and incurred massive debt they call us entitled assholes for not wanting to flip burgers.
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    Nov 11, 2011 5:25 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie saidProof that the above haphazard and fact-free assessment doesn't reflect reality and that Americans WILL take on the "dirty jobs" when they are miraculously available and not being occupied by illegal workers:

    "POSTVILLE, Iowa — A raid by federal immigration officials at the nation’s largest kosher meatpacking plant may have resulted in as many as 700 arrests, immigration officials said Monday.Agents from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement entered the Agriprocessors Inc. complex in northeast Iowa Monday morning to execute a criminal search warrant for evidence relating to aggravated identity theft, fraudulent use of Social Security numbers and other crimes, said Tim Counts, a Midwest ICE spokesman.Agents are also executing a civil search warrant for people illegally in the United States, he said.Immigration officials told aides to Rep. Bruce Braley, D-Iowa, that they expect 600 to 700 arrests. About 1,000 to 1,050 people work at the plant, according to Iowa Workforce Development, the state’s employment services agency.Chuck Larson, a truck driver for Agriprocessing, was in the plant when the agents arrived. “There has to be 100 of them,” he said of the agents. Employment staffing agencies hired to fill the vacant positions noted that approximately 1,200 applications for employment were received as of May 24th. It is estimated that 300 to 400 positions will be filled with new applicants of a legal citizenship origin. The positions were noted as paying between $8.00 to $10.00 per hour on a non-union basis."---From the DesMoines Register - 5/22/2008

    Far more legal citizens applied for the job than what could even be accepted!
    The economy we are in now is even worse than when this happened.

    Time to look for some different wool.


    What you leave out is that American citizens who take these jobs RARELY last the first week.
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    Nov 11, 2011 5:25 PM GMT
    mock, can you spot the fundamental fallacy of your post?
    If you haven't figured it out by tomorrow, i will tell you the answer (if no one else already has pointed out the obvious.)

    (google logical fallacies. the answer is in the list)



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    Nov 11, 2011 5:28 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie saidProof that the above haphazard and fact-free assessment doesn't reflect reality and that Americans WILL take on the "dirty jobs" when they are miraculously available and not being occupied by illegal workers:

    "POSTVILLE, Iowa — A raid by federal immigration officials at the nation’s largest kosher meatpacking plant may have resulted in as many as 700 arrests, immigration officials said Monday.Agents from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement entered the Agriprocessors Inc. complex in northeast Iowa Monday morning to execute a criminal search warrant for evidence relating to aggravated identity theft, fraudulent use of Social Security numbers and other crimes, said Tim Counts, a Midwest ICE spokesman.Agents are also executing a civil search warrant for people illegally in the United States, he said.Immigration officials told aides to Rep. Bruce Braley, D-Iowa, that they expect 600 to 700 arrests. About 1,000 to 1,050 people work at the plant, according to Iowa Workforce Development, the state’s employment services agency.Chuck Larson, a truck driver for Agriprocessing, was in the plant when the agents arrived. “There has to be 100 of them,” he said of the agents. Employment staffing agencies hired to fill the vacant positions noted that approximately 1,200 applications for employment were received as of May 24th. It is estimated that 300 to 400 positions will be filled with new applicants of a legal citizenship origin. The positions were noted as paying between $8.00 to $10.00 per hour on a non-union basis."---From the DesMoines Register - 5/22/2008

    Far more legal citizens applied for the job than what could even be accepted!
    The economy we are in now is even worse than when this happened.

    Time to look for some different wool.
    Yep sure is.. try researching the Wenatchee farmers... 150 bucks a day and NO ONE on unemployment will show up.

    Yep time for you to "look for some different wool".......icon_wink.gificon_rolleyes.gif
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    Nov 11, 2011 5:30 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie saidProof that the above haphazard and fact-free assessment doesn't reflect reality and that Americans WILL take on the "dirty jobs" when they are miraculously available and not being occupied by illegal workers:

    "POSTVILLE, Iowa — A raid by federal immigration officials at the nation’s largest kosher meatpacking plant may have resulted in as many as 700 arrests, immigration officials said Monday.Agents from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement entered the Agriprocessors Inc. complex in northeast Iowa Monday morning to execute a criminal search warrant for evidence relating to aggravated identity theft, fraudulent use of Social Security numbers and other crimes, said Tim Counts, a Midwest ICE spokesman.Agents are also executing a civil search warrant for people illegally in the United States, he said.Immigration officials told aides to Rep. Bruce Braley, D-Iowa, that they expect 600 to 700 arrests. About 1,000 to 1,050 people work at the plant, according to Iowa Workforce Development, the state’s employment services agency.Chuck Larson, a truck driver for Agriprocessing, was in the plant when the agents arrived. “There has to be 100 of them,” he said of the agents. Employment staffing agencies hired to fill the vacant positions noted that approximately 1,200 applications for employment were received as of May 24th. It is estimated that 300 to 400 positions will be filled with new applicants of a legal citizenship origin. The positions were noted as paying between $8.00 to $10.00 per hour on a non-union basis."---From the DesMoines Register - 5/22/2008

    Far more legal citizens applied for the job than what could even be accepted!
    The economy we are in now is even worse than when this happened.

    Time to look for some different wool.


    They can fill the positions with legal residents, but how long do they retain employment? Alabama farmers are reporting that American workers are only lasting 1-2 weeks because the work is too difficult/low paying.
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    Nov 11, 2011 5:41 PM GMT
    catfish5 said
    mocktwinkie saidProof that the above haphazard and fact-free assessment doesn't reflect reality and that Americans WILL take on the "dirty jobs" when they are miraculously available and not being occupied by illegal workers:

    "POSTVILLE, Iowa — A raid by federal immigration officials at the nation’s largest kosher meatpacking plant may have resulted in as many as 700 arrests, immigration officials said Monday.Agents from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement entered the Agriprocessors Inc. complex in northeast Iowa Monday morning to execute a criminal search warrant for evidence relating to aggravated identity theft, fraudulent use of Social Security numbers and other crimes, said Tim Counts, a Midwest ICE spokesman.Agents are also executing a civil search warrant for people illegally in the United States, he said.Immigration officials told aides to Rep. Bruce Braley, D-Iowa, that they expect 600 to 700 arrests. About 1,000 to 1,050 people work at the plant, according to Iowa Workforce Development, the state’s employment services agency.Chuck Larson, a truck driver for Agriprocessing, was in the plant when the agents arrived. “There has to be 100 of them,” he said of the agents. Employment staffing agencies hired to fill the vacant positions noted that approximately 1,200 applications for employment were received as of May 24th. It is estimated that 300 to 400 positions will be filled with new applicants of a legal citizenship origin. The positions were noted as paying between $8.00 to $10.00 per hour on a non-union basis."---From the DesMoines Register - 5/22/2008

    Far more legal citizens applied for the job than what could even be accepted!
    The economy we are in now is even worse than when this happened.

    Time to look for some different wool.


    They can fill the positions with legal residents, but how long do they retain employment? Alabama farmers are reporting that American workers are only lasting 1-2 weeks because the work is too difficult/low paying.


    Let's not ignore the fact that these are jobs without benefits and that you cannot raise a family on $8/hour. For a family of four that puts you below the poverty line and will probably mean the family receives TANF, food stamps, etc. Another example (like Wal-Mart) of socializing the costs of businesses while privatizing the profits.
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    Nov 11, 2011 5:42 PM GMT
    DoomsDayAlpaca said
    mocktwinkie saidProof that the above haphazard and fact-free assessment doesn't reflect reality and that Americans WILL take on the "dirty jobs" when they are miraculously available and not being occupied by illegal workers:

    "POSTVILLE, Iowa — A raid by federal immigration officials at the nation’s largest kosher meatpacking plant may have resulted in as many as 700 arrests, immigration officials said Monday.Agents from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement entered the Agriprocessors Inc. complex in northeast Iowa Monday morning to execute a criminal search warrant for evidence relating to aggravated identity theft, fraudulent use of Social Security numbers and other crimes, said Tim Counts, a Midwest ICE spokesman.Agents are also executing a civil search warrant for people illegally in the United States, he said.Immigration officials told aides to Rep. Bruce Braley, D-Iowa, that they expect 600 to 700 arrests. About 1,000 to 1,050 people work at the plant, according to Iowa Workforce Development, the state’s employment services agency.Chuck Larson, a truck driver for Agriprocessing, was in the plant when the agents arrived. “There has to be 100 of them,” he said of the agents. Employment staffing agencies hired to fill the vacant positions noted that approximately 1,200 applications for employment were received as of May 24th. It is estimated that 300 to 400 positions will be filled with new applicants of a legal citizenship origin. The positions were noted as paying between $8.00 to $10.00 per hour on a non-union basis."---From the DesMoines Register - 5/22/2008

    Far more legal citizens applied for the job than what could even be accepted!
    The economy we are in now is even worse than when this happened.

    Time to look for some different wool.


    What you leave out is that American citizens who take these jobs RARELY last the first week.


    Yes, that's why everyone starved in the 1950s, because no one was available for any of those menial jobs!
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    Nov 11, 2011 5:43 PM GMT
    catfish5 said
    mocktwinkie saidProof that the above haphazard and fact-free assessment doesn't reflect reality and that Americans WILL take on the "dirty jobs" when they are miraculously available and not being occupied by illegal workers:

    "POSTVILLE, Iowa — A raid by federal immigration officials at the nation’s largest kosher meatpacking plant may have resulted in as many as 700 arrests, immigration officials said Monday.Agents from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement entered the Agriprocessors Inc. complex in northeast Iowa Monday morning to execute a criminal search warrant for evidence relating to aggravated identity theft, fraudulent use of Social Security numbers and other crimes, said Tim Counts, a Midwest ICE spokesman.Agents are also executing a civil search warrant for people illegally in the United States, he said.Immigration officials told aides to Rep. Bruce Braley, D-Iowa, that they expect 600 to 700 arrests. About 1,000 to 1,050 people work at the plant, according to Iowa Workforce Development, the state’s employment services agency.Chuck Larson, a truck driver for Agriprocessing, was in the plant when the agents arrived. “There has to be 100 of them,” he said of the agents. Employment staffing agencies hired to fill the vacant positions noted that approximately 1,200 applications for employment were received as of May 24th. It is estimated that 300 to 400 positions will be filled with new applicants of a legal citizenship origin. The positions were noted as paying between $8.00 to $10.00 per hour on a non-union basis."---From the DesMoines Register - 5/22/2008

    Far more legal citizens applied for the job than what could even be accepted!
    The economy we are in now is even worse than when this happened.

    Time to look for some different wool.


    They can fill the positions with legal residents, but how long do they retain employment? Alabama farmers are reporting that American workers are only lasting 1-2 weeks because the work is too difficult/low paying.


    Please show us some reports. I provided an example that disproves the notion that Americans will NOT take jobs previously occupied by illegal workers.

    I could point to many different job types "that Americans want" which also experience a high turnover rate depending on the work environment, boss, area, etc.

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    Nov 11, 2011 5:48 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie said

    Please show us some reports. I provided an example that disproves the notion that Americans will NOT take jobs previously occupied by illegal workers.


    The ONLY thing you "provided" was your constant intellectual shortcomings and your rampant hate for factual information you wish didnt exist, but does!
    You're a big boy, coddled and well taken care oficon_rolleyes.gif, you have the capacity like everyone else here to do your own research.. even if it means proving yourself wrong.

    That's how the big boys play. That's how honest people play as well.icon_wink.gif
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    Nov 11, 2011 5:49 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie said
    catfish5 said
    mocktwinkie saidProof that the above haphazard and fact-free assessment doesn't reflect reality and that Americans WILL take on the "dirty jobs" when they are miraculously available and not being occupied by illegal workers:

    "POSTVILLE, Iowa — A raid by federal immigration officials at the nation’s largest kosher meatpacking plant may have resulted in as many as 700 arrests, immigration officials said Monday.Agents from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement entered the Agriprocessors Inc. complex in northeast Iowa Monday morning to execute a criminal search warrant for evidence relating to aggravated identity theft, fraudulent use of Social Security numbers and other crimes, said Tim Counts, a Midwest ICE spokesman.Agents are also executing a civil search warrant for people illegally in the United States, he said.Immigration officials told aides to Rep. Bruce Braley, D-Iowa, that they expect 600 to 700 arrests. About 1,000 to 1,050 people work at the plant, according to Iowa Workforce Development, the state’s employment services agency.Chuck Larson, a truck driver for Agriprocessing, was in the plant when the agents arrived. “There has to be 100 of them,” he said of the agents. Employment staffing agencies hired to fill the vacant positions noted that approximately 1,200 applications for employment were received as of May 24th. It is estimated that 300 to 400 positions will be filled with new applicants of a legal citizenship origin. The positions were noted as paying between $8.00 to $10.00 per hour on a non-union basis."---From the DesMoines Register - 5/22/2008

    Far more legal citizens applied for the job than what could even be accepted!
    The economy we are in now is even worse than when this happened.

    Time to look for some different wool.


    They can fill the positions with legal residents, but how long do they retain employment? Alabama farmers are reporting that American workers are only lasting 1-2 weeks because the work is too difficult/low paying.


    Please show us some reports. I provided an example that disproves the notion that Americans will NOT take jobs previously occupied by illegal workers.

    I could point to many different job types "that Americans want" which also experience a high turnover rate depending on the work environment, boss, area, etc.



    You're missing the point, Mock. Americans, particularly white ones, are not the employees these companies want. It's hard to intimidate legal citizens are abuse them. And abuse is epic in factory farming. It's the same reason that meat packing, which used to a good union, middle class job (my grandfather was a supervisor for Swift) is now dominated by illegals. The companies want illegal works because they will tolerate conditions Americans would not, including low pay, lack of benefits, lack of overtime pay, filthy conditions, unsafe work environments, etc.
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    Nov 11, 2011 6:25 PM GMT
    TropicalMark said
    mocktwinkie said

    Please show us some reports. I provided an example that disproves the notion that Americans will NOT take jobs previously occupied by illegal workers.


    The ONLY thing you "provided" was your constant intellectual shortcomings and your rampant hate for factual information you wish didnt exist, but does!
    You're a big boy, coddled and well taken care oficon_rolleyes.gif, you have the capacity like everyone else here to do your own research.. even if it means proving yourself wrong.

    That's how the big boys play. That's how honest people play as well.icon_wink.gif


    Newsflash, you're a really poor liar because I provided a clear cut factual incident showing that when a meat packing company in 2008 was busted for hiring illegals that subsequently 1200 legal citizens applied for about 400 job openings.



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    Nov 11, 2011 6:32 PM GMT
    Christian73 said
    mocktwinkie said
    catfish5 said
    mocktwinkie saidProof that the above haphazard and fact-free assessment doesn't reflect reality and that Americans WILL take on the "dirty jobs" when they are miraculously available and not being occupied by illegal workers:

    "POSTVILLE, Iowa — A raid by federal immigration officials at the nation’s largest kosher meatpacking plant may have resulted in as many as 700 arrests, immigration officials said Monday.Agents from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement entered the Agriprocessors Inc. complex in northeast Iowa Monday morning to execute a criminal search warrant for evidence relating to aggravated identity theft, fraudulent use of Social Security numbers and other crimes, said Tim Counts, a Midwest ICE spokesman.Agents are also executing a civil search warrant for people illegally in the United States, he said.Immigration officials told aides to Rep. Bruce Braley, D-Iowa, that they expect 600 to 700 arrests. About 1,000 to 1,050 people work at the plant, according to Iowa Workforce Development, the state’s employment services agency.Chuck Larson, a truck driver for Agriprocessing, was in the plant when the agents arrived. “There has to be 100 of them,” he said of the agents. Employment staffing agencies hired to fill the vacant positions noted that approximately 1,200 applications for employment were received as of May 24th. It is estimated that 300 to 400 positions will be filled with new applicants of a legal citizenship origin. The positions were noted as paying between $8.00 to $10.00 per hour on a non-union basis."---From the DesMoines Register - 5/22/2008

    Far more legal citizens applied for the job than what could even be accepted!
    The economy we are in now is even worse than when this happened.

    Time to look for some different wool.


    They can fill the positions with legal residents, but how long do they retain employment? Alabama farmers are reporting that American workers are only lasting 1-2 weeks because the work is too difficult/low paying.


    Please show us some reports. I provided an example that disproves the notion that Americans will NOT take jobs previously occupied by illegal workers.

    I could point to many different job types "that Americans want" which also experience a high turnover rate depending on the work environment, boss, area, etc.



    You're missing the point, Mock. Americans, particularly white ones, are not the employees these companies want. It's hard to intimidate legal citizens are abuse them. And abuse is epic in factory farming. It's the same reason that meat packing, which used to a good union, middle class job (my grandfather was a supervisor for Swift) is now dominated by illegals. The companies want illegal works because they will tolerate conditions Americans would not, including low pay, lack of benefits, lack of overtime pay, filthy conditions, unsafe work environments, etc.


    No I'm not missing the point. I understand what you are saying in theory but it isn't fully reflective of reality. Obviously such jobs are not the most desired, but when people are desperate for a job they will go for it. What makes you think that all "white" people in this country somehow feel that they are "above" these kinds of jobs? There are millions of poor white trash people who are willing to take factory jobs. Besides, what does this have to do with skin color. We are talking about American citizens regardless of race have been demonstrated to take jobs after they are made available and once previously occupied by illegal workers.

    I don't care what the "companies" want. Of course the companies are looking for profit and are okay with exploiting individuals to achieve that.

    How come when it comes to everything else you're worried about "corporations abusing people" but when it comes to this you don't seem to care?

    Your message is basically this: "since corporations want to keep abusing people so that they can pay them less while denying American workers who could be working at these same places for a decent salary, let's keep letting them do it because having a steady stream of illegals coming into the country is more important than getting the American people back to work."

    You keep talking about "what corporations want". What EVERYONE wants is something selfish. People would steal from others if they could, that's why we have LAWS that need to be enforced.

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    Nov 11, 2011 6:52 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie saidNo I'm not missing the point. I understand what you are saying in theory but it isn't fully reflective of reality. Obviously such jobs are not the most desired, but when people are desperate for a job they will go for it. What makes you think that all "white" people in this country somehow feel that they are "above" these kinds of jobs? There are millions of poor white trash people who are willing to take factory jobs. Besides, what does this have to do with skin color. We are talking about American citizens regardless of race have been demonstrated to take jobs after they are made available and once previously occupied by illegal workers.

    I don't care what the "companies" want. Of course the companies are looking for profit and are okay with exploiting individuals to achieve that.

    How come when it comes to everything else you're worried about "corporations abusing people" but when it comes to this you don't seem to care?

    Your message is basically this: "since corporations want to keep abusing people so that they can pay them less while denying American workers who could be working at these same places for a decent salary, let's keep letting them do it because having a steady stream of illegals coming into the country is more important than getting the American people back to work."

    You keep talking about "what corporations want". What EVERYONE wants is something selfish. People would steal from others if they could, that's why we have LAWS that need to be enforced


    You ARE missing the point. Who is lobbying to prevent immigration reform? Who is blocking laws that would punish the company for employing undocumented workers?

    It's not illegals. It's not Democrats. It's Republicans who are doing - as they always do - the wishes of big business.

    Most of us who support immigration reform and a path to citizenship is to prevent corporations from exploiting people because they fear being reported to INS.

    And race is important because of the disproportionate representation of people of color in certain sectors (hospitality, government, etc.) that are constantly under attack or under pressure to accept crumbs. And the fact that many undocumented workers are people of color. I don't see a huge push for undocumented Irish workers to be tossed out. Even if your beliefs extend to Europeans and Canadians, which I think they do, most attacks on undocumented workers are riddled with racist smears.

    In terms of your world view, I can't really help you. But, then again, I'm the kind of person who when the cashier accidentally gives me incorrect change in my favor, I return it.
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    Nov 11, 2011 7:23 PM GMT
    RJ has taught me willful blindness can ignore reason, christian.
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    Nov 11, 2011 7:52 PM GMT
    *NOTICE: This forum is really screwed up, I posted a response and then it disappeared and I lost it so i had to re-type something similar and I posted that and it still disappeared. Luckily I had copied it and reposted it and it still disappeared. Very strange. I'm going to repost it again and hopefully there aren't numerous ones visible to everyone else*

    Christian73 said
    mocktwinkie saidNo I'm not missing the point. I understand what you are saying in theory but it isn't fully reflective of reality. Obviously such jobs are not the most desired, but when people are desperate for a job they will go for it. What makes you think that all "white" people in this country somehow feel that they are "above" these kinds of jobs? There are millions of poor white trash people who are willing to take factory jobs. Besides, what does this have to do with skin color. We are talking about American citizens regardless of race have been demonstrated to take jobs after they are made available and once previously occupied by illegal workers.

    I don't care what the "companies" want. Of course the companies are looking for profit and are okay with exploiting individuals to achieve that.

    How come when it comes to everything else you're worried about "corporations abusing people" but when it comes to this you don't seem to care?

    Your message is basically this: "since corporations want to keep abusing people so that they can pay them less while denying American workers who could be working at these same places for a decent salary, let's keep letting them do it because having a steady stream of illegals coming into the country is more important than getting the American people back to work."

    You keep talking about "what corporations want". What EVERYONE wants is something selfish. People would steal from others if they could, that's why we have LAWS that need to be enforced


    You ARE missing the point. Who is lobbying to prevent immigration reform? Who is blocking laws that would punish the company for employing undocumented workers?

    It's not illegals. It's not Democrats. It's Republicans who are doing - as they always do - the wishes of big business.

    Most of us who support immigration reform and a path to citizenship is to prevent corporations from exploiting people because they fear being reported to INS.

    And race is important because of the disproportionate representation of people of color in certain sectors (hospitality, government, etc.) that are constantly under attack or under pressure to accept crumbs. And the fact that many undocumented workers are people of color. I don't see a huge push for undocumented Irish workers to be tossed out. Even if your beliefs extend to Europeans and Canadians, which I think they do, most attacks on undocumented workers are riddled with racist smears.

    In terms of your world view, I can't really help you. But, then again, I'm the kind of person who when the cashier accidentally gives me incorrect change in my favor, I return it.


    With all due respect, you should really know the answer to your question. It is liberals and fundie religious conservatives who are preventing immigration reform (and by immigration reform I'm not talking about amnesty, which is basically just a way of letting the world know that if you break the law, you WILL be rewarded in the end). For some strange reason, liberals feel that if they support measures opposed to cracking down on illegal immigration that they are demonstrating themselves to be "non-racist" (this is all just conjured up in their minds, of course). The fundies are afraid of the hindrance it will cause to their mission of spreading the gospel to the world and reaching out to everyone who is "red or yellow black or white".

    However, if you poll conservatives nation wide they are overwhelmingly against illegal immigration and are in favor of cracking down -- so I would definitely re-think an obviously ill-thought out blame on conservatives when you know very well who is stopping an immigration crackdown. The ones preventing this from happening are those who SUPPORT illegal immigration, like you, without delineating any clear reason for it while at the same time blaming corporations as an excuse for it to continue.

    I don't know how you manage to keep making this about race. Americans in general don't care what skin color an illegal is, they believe that it is only fair for everyone to go through the same proper process of citizenship. I can't figure out how everything gets twisted into being some kind of racism if it has to do with someone who is non-white? I know people of all colors who are just as fervent as the other about this issue.

    Irish and other Europeans are not the "face" of illegal immigration because we are not bordering those countries and therefore the threat in that regard from those countries is minimal. Illegal immigrants of European descent make up only a fraction of the number. In fact, I've never ever met a single person who is european and also an illegal -- only a lawful immigrant. You make me imagine a scenario of us talking during WWII and you wondering why Germans and Japanese are getting the main brunt of suspicion and other people from other countries aren't because "they could be spies too". Illegal immigration from Mexico and other south american countries are the main source. That's just the way it is right now.

    And they aren't just undocumented, they are here working ILLEGALLY. If you really cared about stopping this you would support measures that prevent the incentives fueling this problem.

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    Nov 11, 2011 9:18 PM GMT
    I'll try this again. Every time I post this it disappears and I can't figure out why.

    Christian73 said
    mocktwinkie saidNo I'm not missing the point. I understand what you are saying in theory but it isn't fully reflective of reality. Obviously such jobs are not the most desired, but when people are desperate for a job they will go for it. What makes you think that all "white" people in this country somehow feel that they are "above" these kinds of jobs? There are millions of poor white trash people who are willing to take factory jobs. Besides, what does this have to do with skin color. We are talking about American citizens regardless of race have been demonstrated to take jobs after they are made available and once previously occupied by illegal workers.

    I don't care what the "companies" want. Of course the companies are looking for profit and are okay with exploiting individuals to achieve that.

    How come when it comes to everything else you're worried about "corporations abusing people" but when it comes to this you don't seem to care?

    Your message is basically this: "since corporations want to keep abusing people so that they can pay them less while denying American workers who could be working at these same places for a decent salary, let's keep letting them do it because having a steady stream of illegals coming into the country is more important than getting the American people back to work."

    You keep talking about "what corporations want". What EVERYONE wants is something selfish. People would steal from others if they could, that's why we have LAWS that need to be enforced


    You ARE missing the point. Who is lobbying to prevent immigration reform? Who is blocking laws that would punish the company for employing undocumented workers?

    It's not illegals. It's not Democrats. It's Republicans who are doing - as they always do - the wishes of big business.

    Most of us who support immigration reform and a path to citizenship is to prevent corporations from exploiting people because they fear being reported to INS.

    And race is important because of the disproportionate representation of people of color in certain sectors (hospitality, government, etc.) that are constantly under attack or under pressure to accept crumbs. And the fact that many undocumented workers are people of color. I don't see a huge push for undocumented Irish workers to be tossed out. Even if your beliefs extend to Europeans and Canadians, which I think they do, most attacks on undocumented workers are riddled with racist smears.

    In terms of your world view, I can't really help you. But, then again, I'm the kind of person who when the cashier accidentally gives me incorrect change in my favor, I return it.


    With all due respect, you should really know the answer to your question. It is liberals and fundie religious conservatives who are preventing immigration reform (and by immigration reform I'm not talking about amnesty, which is basically just a way of letting the world know that if you break the law, you WILL be rewarded in the end). For some strange reason, liberals feel that if they support measures opposed to cracking down on illegal immigration that they are demonstrating themselves to be "non-racist" (this is all just conjured up in their minds, of course). The fundies are afraid of the hindrance it will cause to their mission of spreading the gospel to the world and reaching out to everyone who is "red or yellow black or white".

    However, if you poll conservatives nation wide they are overwhelmingly against illegal immigration and are in favor of cracking down -- so I would definitely re-think an obviously ill-thought out blame on conservatives when you know very well who is stopping an immigration crackdown. The ones preventing this from happening are those who SUPPORT illegal immigration, like you, without delineating any clear reason for it while at the same time blaming corporations as an excuse for it to continue.

    I don't know how you manage to keep making this about race. Americans in general don't care what skin color an illegal is, they believe that it is only fair for everyone to go through the same proper process of citizenship. I can't figure out how everything gets twisted into being some kind of racism if it has to do with someone who is non-white? I know people of all colors who are just as fervent as the other about this issue.

    Irish and other Europeans are not the "face" of illegal immigration because we are not bordering those countries and therefore the threat in that regard from those countries is minimal. Illegal immigrants of European descent make up only a fraction of the number. In fact, I've never ever met a single person who is european and also an illegal -- only a lawful immigrant. You make me imagine a scenario of us talking during WWII and you wondering why Germans and Japanese are getting the main brunt of suspicion and other people from other countries aren't because "they could be spies too". Illegal immigration from Mexico and other south american countries are the main source. That's just the way it is right now.

    And they aren't just undocumented, they are here working ILLEGALLY. It seems to me that if you were you really concerned about this issue you would support measures that prevent the incentives fueling the problem.
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    Nov 11, 2011 9:20 PM GMT
    DoomsDayAlpaca saidI like the qoute someone posted in another thread from a cracked article "they force fed us the idea that if we didn't want to flip burgers for the rest of our lives then we needed to go to college. Now that we've gone to college, have diplomas, and incurred massive debt they call us entitled assholes for not wanting to flip burgers.


    Thats life. Get over it.
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    Nov 11, 2011 9:56 PM GMT
    In Alabama and other parts of the country, farmers must look beyond the nation's borders for labor because many Americans simply don't want the backbreaking, low-paying jobs immigrants are willing to take. Politicians who support the law say over time more unemployed Americans will fill these jobs. They insist it's too early to consider the law a failure, yet numbers from the governor's office show only nominal interest.

    "I've had people calling me wanting to work," Smith said. "I haven't turned any of them down, but they're not any good. It's hard work, they just don't work like the Hispanics with experience."

    "People in Alabama are not going to do this," said Smith, who grows about 75 acres of tomatoes in the northeast part of the state. "They'd work one day and then just wouldn't show up again."

    "Basically they last a day or two, literally."


    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-20123545/few-americans-take-immigrants-jobs-in-alabama/
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    Nov 11, 2011 10:07 PM GMT
    Why doesn't the occupy trash get out and work these jobs instead of wasting time???
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    Nov 11, 2011 10:09 PM GMT
    mocktwinkie saidI'll try this again. Every time I post this it disappears and I can't figure out why.

    Christian73 said
    mocktwinkie saidNo I'm not missing the point. I understand what you are saying in theory but it isn't fully reflective of reality. Obviously such jobs are not the most desired, but when people are desperate for a job they will go for it. What makes you think that all "white" people in this country somehow feel that they are "above" these kinds of jobs? There are millions of poor white trash people who are willing to take factory jobs. Besides, what does this have to do with skin color. We are talking about American citizens regardless of race have been demonstrated to take jobs after they are made available and once previously occupied by illegal workers.

    I don't care what the "companies" want. Of course the companies are looking for profit and are okay with exploiting individuals to achieve that.

    How come when it comes to everything else you're worried about "corporations abusing people" but when it comes to this you don't seem to care?

    Your message is basically this: "since corporations want to keep abusing people so that they can pay them less while denying American workers who could be working at these same places for a decent salary, let's keep letting them do it because having a steady stream of illegals coming into the country is more important than getting the American people back to work."

    You keep talking about "what corporations want". What EVERYONE wants is something selfish. People would steal from others if they could, that's why we have LAWS that need to be enforced


    You ARE missing the point. Who is lobbying to prevent immigration reform? Who is blocking laws that would punish the company for employing undocumented workers?

    It's not illegals. It's not Democrats. It's Republicans who are doing - as they always do - the wishes of big business.

    Most of us who support immigration reform and a path to citizenship is to prevent corporations from exploiting people because they fear being reported to INS.

    And race is important because of the disproportionate representation of people of color in certain sectors (hospitality, government, etc.) that are constantly under attack or under pressure to accept crumbs. And the fact that many undocumented workers are people of color. I don't see a huge push for undocumented Irish workers to be tossed out. Even if your beliefs extend to Europeans and Canadians, which I think they do, most attacks on undocumented workers are riddled with racist smears.

    In terms of your world view, I can't really help you. But, then again, I'm the kind of person who when the cashier accidentally gives me incorrect change in my favor, I return it.


    With all due respect, you should really know the answer to your question. It is liberals and fundie religious conservatives who are preventing immigration reform (and by immigration reform I'm not talking about amnesty, which is basically just a way of letting the world know that if you break the law, you WILL be rewarded in the end). For some strange reason, liberals feel that if they support measures opposed to cracking down on illegal immigration that they are demonstrating themselves to be "non-racist" (this is all just conjured up in their minds, of course). The fundies are afraid of the hindrance it will cause to their mission of spreading the gospel to the world and reaching out to everyone who is "red or yellow black or white".

    However, if you poll conservatives nation wide they are overwhelmingly against illegal immigration and are in favor of cracking down -- so I would definitely re-think an obviously ill-thought out blame on conservatives when you know very well who is stopping an immigration crackdown. The ones preventing this from happening are those who SUPPORT illegal immigration, like you, without delineating any clear reason for it while at the same time blaming corporations as an excuse for it to continue.

    I don't know how you manage to keep making this about race. Americans in general don't care what skin color an illegal is, they believe that it is only fair for everyone to go through the same proper process of citizenship. I can't figure out how everything gets twisted into being some kind of racism if it has to do with someone who is non-white? I know people of all colors who are just as fervent as the other about this issue.

    Irish and other Europeans are not the "face" of illegal immigration because we are not bordering those countries and therefore the threat in that regard from those countries is minimal. Illegal immigrants of European descent make up only a fraction of the number. In fact, I've never ever met a single person who is european and also an illegal -- only a lawful immigrant. You make me imagine a scenario of us talking during WWII and you wondering why Germans and Japanese are getting the main brunt of suspicion and other people from other countries aren't because "they could be spies too". Illegal immigration from Mexico and other south american countries are the main source. That's just the way it is right now.

    And they aren't just undocumented, they are here working ILLEGALLY. It seems to me that if you were you really concerned about this issue you would support measures that prevent the incentives fueling the problem.




    Really?

    How often do you wonder if some white person is not a Canadian? would you even think to wonder if the guy working in the kitchen or as a busboy is a British student, or a German whose tourist visa has long expired? A lot of those strggling actors in NY and L.A. are actually Canadian. At what point did you wonder about Ryan Reynolds' citizenship?

    Alanis Morrissette?

    Alex Trebek
    Keith Morrison.
    John Roberts.

    Truth is most give them the benefit of the doubt because they are white - even if they have a funny accent.


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    Nov 11, 2011 10:38 PM GMT
    CHRISTOPHER34 saidWhy doesn't the occupy trash get out and work these jobs instead of wasting time???


    How do u know they dont have full time jobs already? Y dont u get out there and work these jobs instead of bitching bout everyone else. Given the extensive amount of time you spend posting on RJ, u obviously are unemployed or have a job where u dont work a whole helluva lot.
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    Nov 11, 2011 10:53 PM GMT
    catfish5 said
    CHRISTOPHER34 saidWhy doesn't the occupy trash get out and work these jobs instead of wasting time???


    How do u know they dont have full time jobs already? Y dont u get out there and work these jobs instead of bitching bout everyone else. Given the extensive amount of time you spend posting on RJ, u obviously are unemployed or have a job where u dont work a whole helluva lot.


    Especially when you take into account posting under two accounts.