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I've been getting craniosacral therapy for the past year, and it's done tremendous things for me. I've always had a problem with my pelvis tilting forward, lower back issues, TMJ, and neck problems, and CST has really helped me to loosen up those areas.

I'm wondering if anyone else here has also had some experience with it.

Oh, and if you don't know what it is, here are some links.

The Craniosacral Therapy Association of North America
Wikipedia's entry on Craniosacral Therapy

Actually, as a PT, this branch of therapy is highly controversial as it is not evidence based and considered by a lot of PT's and ortho MDs as scientifically unsound and "rehab voodoo"... It is not just the technique that is in question, but the whole foundation of its theories are considered by a large majority of clinicians to be based on poor logical and scientific thinking, and a good amount of sound and strong evidence based studies out there show that this branch of treatment is highly placebo, while the studies that suggest craniosacral therapy are all very poorly constructed...

I never advocate teaching my interns craniosacral therapy... They can look into it at thier own time but it, like the well known John Barns "Myofacial Release Technique", is considered an embarrasing example of "rehab voodoo" by the majority of PT's out there....

but, if it works for you, then there is no reason to stop the treatment...

Hey NYC,

While I don't have the medical background that you do, I do know what works. I've had many medical practitioners in all the fields that have a lot of scientific backing, and they haven't been able to do anything near the relief I've gotten from the CST.

While I appreciate the rigourousness of the double-blind study crowd (I even worked in health care for a couple of years,) I do know that it doesn't have all the answers either. I just know that the results work for me.

Anyone else have experience?

Actually, one of the massage therapists I worked with during my training did cranio-sacral therapy, along with many other types of body work.

I had a bunch of sessions with him and I didn't feel particularly changed by the experience, although my mood was altered. Of course, lying on a table and having someone manipulate your body for an hour in any way is going to be mood-altering.

I try to be open minded about this stuff. Today, I had someone at the house repairing the washing machine. He was in his 60s, from the Urkaine. He walked into my office and saw a book on the body and psychotherapy and got very excited. He turned out to be a reiki practitioner and insisted on giving me a session. I've never understood that stuff either, but, hey, I'll take all the "positive energy" I can get.

I've also had experience with Barbara Brennan's work, with Core Energetics, EFT (which is weird but seems to work), EMDR (which is super weird, but approved by the APA for PTSD treatment) and just about every kind of massage work imaginable. Also: Reichian therapy, reflexology (foot massage), healing touch, Hakomi (fascinating), psychomotor work, etc, etc.

I think what you may not be accounting for, NYC, is the way psychological stuff gets somatized. (Somatic psychology is a legitimate field of study.) Most of these alternative therapies are trying to explore/treat that psyche/body link -- Freud said the body IS the unconscious -- but 95 percent of it really does seems to be placebo effect. On the other hand, nearly everyone somatizes psychological material and one way of effectively approaching it initially is through the body.

mat45710,
I just had my first session of CST from www.peggyolsen.com. it was great. i went because of alot of TMJ pain and whiplash accidents from cars and bikes. It was amazing how relaxed I was, but still had energy. She also deals with Trauma side of things to, she explains on her website. I have another treatment on Tuesday.
NYC,
listing to Dr. OZ on XM radion, he even said today, just somethings dealing with holistic treatments, just can't be explained scientificly. Being on the holistic side of things, certain treatments work on certain people/conditions on many different levels and some don't, that's why there are several treatment to chose from, find one the works for "you". Even in the medical field, some treatments don't work and some do.

Geez, small world. I have met Peggy Olsen. She is involved in pre- and peri-natal psychology. I did my training under the president and founder of the Association for Pre- and Peri-natal Psychology in Sonoma County.

My point is not to suggest holistic approaches to treatments are all "voodoo." I just have a problem with how some of these techniques explain their approaches and theories as if they are based on evidenced medicine... The reagular everyday patient is easily impressed with big medical jargons and buys into a lot of hype that has very poor logic and reasoning. If certain phenomenon is not well understood and not adequately studied and based purely on someone's creative theories, say so.

If cranio-sacral therapy claims that it can work for some patients and that it is based on theories not proven, well understaood, or base one any form of adequate empirical evidence, then it would not get the bad rep it got within the rehab community itself...

I actually send patients to accupunture as some of them reports it works for them. But I cringe a bit when patients ask me about cranio-sacral therapy and John Barn's Myofacial Release. Physical therapist are not trained psychotherapists... Our scope of practice is not alternative medical treatment. One can practice that at thier own discretion, but I would hesitate to call it "physical rehab" but rather alternative psycho therapy through movment or touch or whatever...

One more thing to mention...

Physical rehab does not "treat pain" but to improve function...

If you charge for a service and your goal in your documentation mentiones something like "Increase strength of weakend muscle groups at least 1/2 MMT grade so pt. can walk without pain", your payment would be denied by insurance... Rehab is not pain management.

Therefore, a lot of somatic pain syndrome are NOT covered by insurance to be treated by rehab.

If your pain is a result of a specific PHYSICAL impariment such as excessive scar tissue, a joint mechanical dysfunction, etc, NOW that is what physical rehab and medicine is for...

Somatic pain syndrome is more appropriately referred to psycho therapy, not PT or physical medicine...

NYC: Are you aware that the whole concept of "evidence-based medicine" is under intense scrutiny now? A couple of books highly critical of it have been published recently.

Here's an article that discusses one book that takes up the subject of evidence-based medicine:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/20214

I had a patient recently who came in complaining of feeling tired and worn out for about a week. Just prior to this he had visited his brother in a large city for the weekend. Had done nothing remarkable while there or afterwards, or before or anywhere, had not past medical history, not family history no nothing. I ordered labs which had slightly elevated liver enzymes, but nothing else. He came back in a week feeling better. What did he have? I don't know. Somewhere I missed something, and probably in communicating with him -- not asking the right question or pressing him for an answer. I told him that my best guess was that he had some virus that he was now recovering from, but that I wasn't sure. Did I feel comfortable with that? No, but I didn't have anything better to say and he was getting better. But overall the encounter left me feeling uncomfortable.

Evidency based medicine is good in that it has cleaned out, and continues to clean out a lot of the myths and voodoo in medical practice, but no, it is not the salvation of it as sometimes hailed. The same with double-blind studies. Yes, they are the gold standard, but they are often impossible, for phyical, ethical, or other reasons. Most studies in fact are not randomized double-blind studies. That doesn't mean the information gained wrong or not useful, often not as sure as would be ideal. Still you have to go with what you have and make a decision.

As humans though we want explainable, repeatable answers. To say I don't know, or I don't have a good answer is not seen as satisfactory, or that there must be some deficiency -- and there probably is. But sometimes you don't have a good answer, as in the case of my patient, or CST, or acupuncture, or reiki or many things.

I am with Wrerick 100%.

All approaches have their limitations. We do not have answers to everything. However, evidence based medicine, althought not without flaws, provided far more understanding and accurate and reproducable anwers than alternative methods. THIS IS NOT TO SAY it has adequate answers to everything.

The article Obscenewish provided is NOT describing the flaw of evidence based medicine, but rather the poor use of it by unexperieinced clinicians. You have your systems review and all that, but it is up to the experienced clinician to use his or her extensive experience to guide and interpret the information he gathers from the patient. What the articile is describing is how some new residences and interns, only iwth book knowledge, do a sort of "check list" type of examiniation based on evidence... This is not dynmaic and tunnel visioned. This is not a flaw of evidence based medicine, but rather the inapt use of it as a tool to help a clinician treat and examin patients...

This is slightly off track, but I get some email asking what was wrong with the PT documentation that is denied by insurance for payment above...

Insurance will deny payment if you write:

"Increase strength of weakend muscle groups at least 1/2 MMT grade so pt. can walk without pain",

It will pay if you write:

"Increase strength of weakend muscle groups at least 1/2 MMT grade so pt. can walk on flat surface such as treadmill at least 15 min duration at more than 2.0 mph with normalized gait in order to perform community distance ambulation"

Pain when walking? They would say take NSAIDs, insurance won't pay for that...

Well, it's been a while since I read that particular article, and I don't have time to read it again right now, but I've read quite a few articles questioning the data collection methods themselves. This was the case with the scandal at Walter Reed, where everyone loved the staff but was also aware they were getting ineffective treatment.

I'll see if I can find it later.

In any case, I didn't suggest wholesale scrapping of evidence-based medicine. The articles I've read suggest there is too much blind faith in it, not that it is inherently faulty throughout.

I'm not going to get into the whole issue about whether alternative therapies are valid or not. I'll just say that a significant component of healing is in your own mindset, and if you don't believe something will work it's likely that it will have limited or no effect.

It's interesting that my PT, very well regarded nationally, actually had positive things to say about craniosacral therapy, so I question the "bad rep" reported by the previous poster. The original poster asked if anyone else had some experience. I don't think calling it "voodoo" or reading other's polemics against it qualifies as experience.

I have had CST and it was very effective. Would I recommend it to everyone? No. But I would recommend it to someone who I know would be open to that type of therapy.

I welcome any questions about what I posted. As far as "nationally" well regarded, Cranial Sacral by Upledger and Myofacial Release by John Barns are THE 2 branches of theories within the rehab community that get the worst rep. AND yes, they ARE indeed well regarded by some rehab clinicians but generally very looked down by the rest of PT's, ortho MD's, and OD's because of the inablity to generate sound studies.

One has to also understand that many well respected branches of rehab has borrowed and taken the above 2 techniques and turned them into their own treatment techniques with similar "brand names"... However, they support their own branch off treatment techniques with sound and evidence based studies.

Well respected Stanly Paris, who has his own branch of treatment techniques, also teaches "Cranial Sacral" treatments, BUT it is NOT like the ORIGIANL Cranial Sacral advocated by Upledger.

The very effective ART (Active Release Technique), which I am a certified practitioneer, may also seem similar to John Barns "Mayofacial" technique, BUT ALSO different. AND it has been studied objectively with EMG tests.

And I stand with what I said, but it was pointed directly to the ORIGINAL cranial sacral therapy, which the thread starter is referring to (he made the referrence with his links.)

I welcome ANYONE to check with APTA and even call them and aks what their stance on eveidence based practice is, I know, I teach this stuff as a clinical instructor for years at my hospital. The bad rep I report is not made up, you can question all you want, I welcome you do you own research and look into the theories themselve.

Sorry I meant to type DO, not OD..

Here are some referrences from Google Scholar...


http://www.ptjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/78/11/1175

http://www.ptjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/76/2/175

http://www.ptjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/74/10/908

AND some studies even found Cranial Sacral to cause ADVERSE reactions to brain injured patients:

http://www.worksafe.wcb.bc.ca/health_care_providers/Assets/PDF/poster-presentations/non-randomized_controlled_trial_complementary_medicine.pdf

And you will see that studies that support cranial sacral therapy is generally very poorly constructed and not objective, and all are generated by DOs oof the Upledge camp...

I welcome everyone to do some research and be their own judge.

Oy. Check this out. For only $4500 (including no expenses like hotel or meals), you can undergo 3 days of "dolphin assisted healing" at the Upledger Institute's facility in the Bahamas:

http://tinyurl.com/2ltmpn

Actually using animals for therapy is a big thing in the world of pediatric. You do not have to resort to only dolphines, horses will do as well :)

Of course a lot of nursing homes also use "Pet Therapy" where dogs are used to calm the elderly...

I am not sure if any animal have specific "supernatural" type of healing power... Personally I think that is goinhg a bit to the far end... But the interaction of people and certain animlas have been shown to restore their vitals to more appropriate ranges...

Please. $4500 to float in the water with dolphins for 4 days, alternating with craniosacral work? Plus airfare, plus meals, plus hotels.

Stay home, adopt a cat or dog from a shelter and get a massage from a CMT. Then send the remaining $4375 to me.

I was once assigned a story on a woman who claimed to work with "dolphin surgeons" in a "crystal cave." This was in Florida. So I go to the damn crystal cave with her to experience the healing of the dolphin surgeons.

I look around. I don't see any dolphins.I asked her where Dr. Flipper was.

"Oh," she says, "these are discarnate dolphins that do the surgery."

Fucking invisible dolphin doctors doing totally pain-free surgery. Woo hoo!!

OMG, that sounds like something you would see on Comedy Central... Are you for real? She had the nerve to tell you something so insane?

I agree with you LOL. As far as animal therapy, I was just reporting "trends." I certainly do not do that and I have never referred any of my patients to swim with dolphines...

Animal interaction therapy is often performed by recreational therapists instead of someone in healthcare field. You do not need formal training in health care to do this... If anything, an animal trainer might be a better fit for this job as to avoid patients aggitating animals and thus creating an unsafe enviroment...

BUT it generates a lot of $$$... Of course, the ones who are open to this pay out of pocket (yeah, try to ask your insurance to pay for it. Please let me know how they treat your claim if you do!)

I am with you, I can use the $4500 in many other ways, all of them much more therapeutic than a dolphin camp..

Oh, I believe animals are great for consolation and many other things. "Cat fur is very healing," one of my professors used to say. (Dog fur is very annoying.)

Yes, I'm totally serious about the dolphin surgeons in the crystal cave. The next day I attended a lecture by the woman and my questions afterward got me pegged as the crazy non-believer. You know: I'm narrow-minded because I wouldn't admit the possibility of invisible dolphin surgeons.

MY ex has had cranial work done for years for fibromyalgia and it has given her great relief from pain, but it is unfortunately only short term relief. Most insurance companies don't recognize it, but like her fibro they are now changing and finding out it is a real disease. Hey if it brings you relief continue!

Oh, you cynic you OW, not believing in the invisible healing powers! Who better than you should know the gods aren't dead!
Yes, swimming with dolphins is exhilirating -- definately new and fun, but better than any other pet on a day to day basis, well I don't know.
Personally my cat -- immitation siamese: has hte coloring, but not the body structure, slightly 'fuller' body build -- sheds way more than the dog. You pet her and there is this wafting aura of fur. The dog, an Italian greyhoud, nothing, or at least hardly anything but hardly noticeable studdy grey.

Fibromyalgia as a diagnosis is very poorly defined.. All you have to have is a set of painful spots on your body, and withouth any clues to the actual etiology of this multiple body part pain syndrome, VOILA! You have fibromyalgia! It is largely affecting middle aged females..

It is a condition very frawned upon by clinicians as the sympton patterns often contradict with eachother AND ALSO INCONSISTANT (inconsistancy usually is a sign of patient being unreliable with their reporting or perception of pain)... Many studies actually show this is more somatic than organic, and responds better with psychotherapy than physical therapy or medicine. Many studies also show patients with this condition respond to a lot of placebo treatments. Furthermore, it is also a lot of time faked by patients who has secondary gain iusses, such as pain med seeking, attention seeking, or insurance fraud...

I personally do not treat patients with this condition... I referr them out to others who wish to treat them...

Please show me the articles showing that fibromalgia is a "real disease"..

It is real as far as symptons.. These patient DO feel pain...

But to be classified as a "real disease", you need a proven etiology and show the biopathway of the entire disease process.

They have not done that yet. They can only say the symptons are real. But is it somatic? Hormonal? Who knows...

I am also going to point out this:

Fibromyalgia is presently mostly treated by anti depresant meds and sometimes succesfully by cognitive psychotherapy instead of physical therpay and rehab...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibromyalgia

If this is indeed a homronal or autoimmune or sympathetic disorder, and sometiems well treated with cognitive therapy and anti-depressant.. Yes, cranialsacral therapy treats this condition...? And many objective studies find cranialsacral therapy to not to work with organic pain syndrome or actualy spine/joint pathologies...what does that say to you as a reader about this branch of "therapy"? Is this rehab and physical medicine, or psychotherapy through "touch"...? Check withthe above referrences and make up your ownmind about this "therapy"...

I've had several clients with FM diagnoses and a friend just received the diagnosis after extensive examination by a rheumatologist. Another client is an MD who operates two pain clinics and treats people with FM. A friend evaluates FM diagnoses for Social Security claims.

So, there's certainly not anything like universal agreement in the medical community that FM is entirely psychosomatic. And, although I have no citations, my friend at Social Security tells me that generally the diagnosis is not as controversial as it used to be because of recent research. My friend who got the diagnosis said the same thing -- and, believe me, he didn't want the diagnosis and remains quite skeptical. He has other health problems, too, but they have been unable to establish any link between them and the FM symptoms.

Still, I wonder about the diagnosis. One of my clients successfully filed a soc. sec. disability claim and certainly was in pain most of the time. Then, one week, he announced that friends in Switzerland had invited him to go hiking in the Alps. He went and his pain completely disappeared while he was there. Likewise, he went on a 3-month retreat at a yoga center and the pain disappeared.

There you go... How can you be on disability because of a condition so painful and debilitatiing, then OK to go hiking or do a yoga trip...???

I have seen this over and over as my collegues, and soon, myself when I am certified, will be performing FCE functional Capacity Exam for disability claims...

We see this all the time... This is what I am talking about: INCONSISTANCY.

It is not to say the patient does not feel the collective symptons when she is in your clinic, buth ehn you see these kind of things happen. They move in pain when you are there, then you see them in the parking lot, lifting heavy grocery bags with ease...

AND, forgot to mention this!

Did you know disability is more often approved for psychological diagnosis rather than a PHYSICAL impairment...?

Do you know how many Vets at our hospital got disability from PTSD? If you have only one leg remaining from a blast wound, and you can do all tasks, even if you need adaptive equipment, it is much more diifficult to claim disability via this route than going by the way of psychological impairment...

So maybe Fibromyalgia falls under the psychological impairment instead of physical impairment...

I don't believe SS regards it as a psychological disorder, but I'm not sure. In fact, as I understand her role, my friend's job is to rule out psychological explanations.

There are similar questions about Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and so-called environmental illnesses, too, aren't there?

Todd Haynes' movie "Safe," made about 10 years ago, is a really brilliant examination of the way psyche and soma interact in the context of these kinds of disorders.

hmm, this is getting technical. im glad i split from premed... anywhoo speaking of cats in nursing homes this cat predicts death! how fun.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/357/4/328

NYC she was diagnosed by the top orthopedic doc in NJ. She had 18 identifiable trigger points. It was explained to us that when the muscle flexes your body gives a electronic and chemical response. In people with fibro, the muscle does not get the second/chemical nurologic signal alowing the muscle to relax causing tears and stiffness and inflamation. My ex got this at 30 yrs old and has been to numerous TOP doctors in NYC NNJ and CT.( Many who are listed in NY Magazine as "Top Docs") All have said the same. It is fibro. It started following surgery. Insurance companies used to think it was a made up disease but that has recently changed. You must however get the correct diagnosis and rule out other conditions like Rhumatiod arthritis, Lupus, and a multitude of auto-immune conditions!! Which we did. I wish it was not true we still care deeply for each other and I have seen her suffer. Actually suffer isn't a strong enough word. I remember the days of carrying her outta the tub washing her hair and helping her through the day do to pain followed by exhaustion. She cannot work out any longer and does NOT go hiking and so on! She is definitely not faking the pain and making her joints inflamed. How could she fake the MRI's?? and CAT scans with and without contrast. Also not a psyhiatric condition in her case. I minored in psch in college at Princeton and she got her MBA in Psych from NYU. I'm not here to change your mind NYC. 99% of the time I agree with you. I read the forums alot. This time I can't.

You have just exactly repeated what I already said...

18 trigger points are just a set of symptons, NOT explained by any etiology.

"It was explained to us that when the muscle flexes your body gives a electronic and chemical response. In people with fibro, the muscle does not get the second/chemical nurologic signal alowing the muscle to relax causing tears and stiffness and inflamation"

THAT is NOT true. If it is muscle tears, you will see this with MRI, just as we see hyper intensities with collection of fluid with all sort od mucle tears in the shoulder, knees, etc, etc..

I am not saying that the patient does not feel the symptons. but FM diagnosis is not a "real" diagnosis at this time of our medical understanding as a collection of symtons is NOT a real diagnosis. The Etiology (the CAUSE) of the symptons MUST be identified... Where is the literature showing the PATHWAY of this "second/chemical nurologic signal alowing the muscle to relax"???

You talk to your doctors, but I have also heard pain management doctors, unknown to patients, say things like, "I really do not know what she has, so let's just say she has fibromalgia since she has the patterns."

Again, if there is a real diagnosis, there will be an answer how to treat (or not be able to treat ) this and can be explained in an exact manner.

For all you know, if a person has all 18 trigger points may just have muscle over use spasms... or a combination of taht and cervical radiculopathy.. or this, or that..

So that is the problem of jsut a collection of tender spots.. That is not a true diagnosis, but just a bucket where physicians do not know what is causing the symptons and just dump all that fits in the bucket....

And what exaclty did you see in the CT scans and MRI...?

If you can see the cause, and NOT just the symptons, in these films, and conclude that waht you saw IS the primary CAUSE of Fibromyalgia, you would be a famous person solving the etiology of Fibromyaliga!

For your information, Fibromyalgia is NOT diagnoised with CT scans and MRI.

You can diagnose a CVA or other upper neuron patholgies as there are exact indicators taht correlates sympton with anatomy with diseas pathway...

They don't even know if FM is a upper neuron disorder at this time... So how can you diagnose FM with MRI???

Please post what you read in the MRI so we can all learn something new...

Personally I don't much like the diagnosis of FM, and not because I don't think it is a diagnosis, but largely because there is no clear cut cause or etiology. It is largely a diagnosis of exclusion -- you don't have something else in the workup, and you should have had a thourough woriup, and yes, you do have 11 out of 18 pressure points, and the chronic pain, fatigue, and or sometimes not feeling with it mentally.

But what exactly is the disorder? Is it rheumatologic? -- and it does seem to be episodic with flare-ups in some people. Is it psychosomatic? Or is it a combination of both, or are there more than one cause that presents with the same symptoms, or patterns? Somehow, it would seem, the bodies response to stimuli, or the connection between the neurological and skeletomuscle systems becomes disordered and produces abnormal responses, but I don't know that anyone knows what exactly is going on. Definately there are triggering factors, stress, and yes, surgery is one as well, and maybe even a genetic disposition towards it.

As a relatively recent diagnosis and without a clear cut cause, it has meant that many people, including physicians and health care workers, have questioned the diagnosis -- and certainly there are people who are mis-diagnosed which is particularly easy with FM as it is based on physical exam and history without the help of other diagnostic tools. Also the patient should have been thoroughly, exphasis on thoroughly, worked up to exclude something else. Of course this is very confusing and frustrating to the suffer, and most people are happy to have a diagnosis rather than not having one at all.

Again treatment is not always straightforward either, and some people still have pain and suffering even with treatment. The anti-depressants often help -- they help for many things. But also things like physical therapy, chiropractors, and yes cranial theraphy etc help or at least often give the patient relief from the symptoms. But it is hard to know what is the best and most appropriate treament when you don't have a cause for the problem.

Wrerick:

THANK YOU!

Your reply as a physician is the best reply here.

And I want to stress again, as with my previous replies, that I never stated that some of these patients do not feel the symptons or there is not something going on there. I am basically saying the same thing Wreick is saying (and he is a working physician, a clinician). What I meant by "real diagnosis" is not that the symptons do not exist, but that the diagnosis of FM, unlike most other diagnosis out there, is that the diagnosis of FM is only a diagnosis of exclusion. It is not conculsive, specific, explainable, accurate, or reliable.

Yes, FM does have a code in our billing system, but that does not mean it is a "real diagnosis" in the sense we discussed above.

Similarly, there are other general and diagnosis of exclusion that still exist andoften charged as a code such as "Lower Back Pain." This is not that much different from FM, as it is bascially a sympton, but does not tell one what is the "real diagnosis" behind the symptons. A "real diagnosis" for "Lower Back Pain" would be such specific conditions that CUASE lower back pain such as "Herniated Disc Pulposa" or "Dessicated Disc Disease" or "Disc Bulging" or "Lumbar Facet Degenerative Joint Disease" or "Spondylolisthesis", etc, etc...

Furthermnore, as Wreick stated, we have had many patients referred to us with FM and it turned out to be a misdiagnosis. Thes patient actually were found to have multiple other diagnosis that include autoimmune and psychological components,or sometimes, unfortunately, medical fraud...

That is what I meant by not a "real diagnosis."

And also according to APTA, PT's do NOT treat pain. So please do not refer patients with FM to PT's. PT's do not provide a general exercise and stretching conditioning program with pschological consuling. General conditioning is not a skilled PT service and should be taken up by the patient to join a local gym. And psychological onsuling is also not a skille service provided by our profession. It would not be an appropriate referral...

And MikeMikeMike:

"NYC she was diagnosed by the top orthopedic doc in NJ"

FM is NOT an orthopedic condition...

Orthopedic physicians knows orthopedics. FM, suspected to have an auto immune and neurological component, is more often diagnoised by rhemotolgy, endocrinology, primary care, and pain mangement...

If an ortho is not giving you a diagnosis such as "supraspinatus tear" or "ACL tear" or "cervical radiculopahty", but instead diagnose you with FM, that means they cannot find an ortho diagnosis that fits you (so it means you do not have a known ortho condition), just conveniently label you as FM...

sorry NYC I asked her it was top board certified Rhuematologists. One in NYC, one in NNJ and one in CT. We spent well over 50,000. searching for a diagnosis. This is what we were told. My family has many insurance agents in it, and they were once told it was a made up illness like chronic fatigue. However now it is not. They seem to have a better understanding of it. I was shown on the MRI the fluid and soft tissue differences of a normal joint and hers along with other FM patients. As for the muscle tears you can actually palpate them. They feel like small hard lumps. She also had a muscle punch to determine the diagnosis. That was painfull and costly. It was like shoving a metal straw into you thigh to examine a core piece of muscle fiber. All I can say is that for pain management the cranial work does help. If you know better clue me in. Is there a "real" Dr. in the house???- preferebly a rhumatologist!!

sorry NYC I asked her it was top board certified Rhuematologists. One in NYC, one in NNJ and one in CT. We spent well over 50,000. searching for a diagnosis. This is what we were told. My family has many insurance agents in it, and they were once told it was a made up illness like chronic fatigue. However now it is not. They seem to have a better understanding of it. I was shown on the MRI the fluid and soft tissue differences of a normal joint and hers along with other FM patients. As for the muscle tears you can actually palpate them. They feel like small hard lumps. She also had a muscle punch to determine the diagnosis. That was painfull and costly. It was like shoving a metal straw into you thigh to examine a core piece of muscle fiber. All I can say is that for pain management the cranial work does help. If you know better clue me in. Is there a "real" Dr. in the house???- preferebly a rhumatologist!!

sorry NYC I asked her it was top board certified Rhuematologists. One in NYC, one in NNJ and one in CT. We spent well over 50,000. searching for a diagnosis. This is what we were told. My family has many insurance agents in it, and they were once told it was a made up illness like chronic fatigue. However now it is not. They seem to have a better understanding of it. I was shown on the MRI the fluid and soft tissue differences of a normal joint and hers along with other FM patients. As for the muscle tears you can actually palpate them. They feel like small hard lumps. She also had a muscle punch to determine the diagnosis. That was painfull and costly. It was like shoving a metal straw into you thigh to examine a core piece of muscle fiber. All I can say is that for pain management the cranial work does help. If you know better clue me in. Is there a "real" Dr. in the house???- preferebly a rhumatologist!!

Not a problem, but....

You have again just stated the exact thing I wsa talking about..

She was diagnosed by rheumatology for joint effusion (intra articular collection of fluid contained inthe joint capsule, not just edema). This does not mean this is FM. Joint effusion is a sympton that can be caused by MANY, MANY etiologies, including rheumatoid arthritis or RA.. But you canot just diagnose RA based on this MRI, as this can be a joint contusion of other etiologies. You need to have a blood test and test positive for rheumatoid factors.

And no, you cannot palpate muscle tears. THIS I KNOW... There are many types of muscle tears, complete vs partial, full thickness vs partial thickness, etc. Muslce tears are mostly diagnosed by imaging and mechanical muscle contractile testing. You can palpate muscle fluid collection or maturation of scar formation, which again, can be caused by many factors and not just tears, so you cannot palpate "muscle tears." Sometimes you can palpate bulging and indention of complete tears of superficial large muscle groups, but this is subjective and not accurate. Palpation is NOT a diagnositc tool when it comes to muscle tears. Plapation is only an indication of soft tissue quality, not tears.

So you have just described what I have posted... She has unexplained symptons, but these symptons are not unique to FM but a host of other diagnosis. They do not know what is cause and etiology causing the fluid collection, the change of muslce tissue charaters, etc, etc...

That is how FM is diagnosed...a non-differntial diagnosis of exclusion...

And most of my patients who has done Cranial Sacral therapy, including my younger sister, all said that it is more like a meditation relaxation treatment... They feel mood latering relaxation in general, whcih for some who seek thiis treatment, is all what they needed as there is no actual orthopedic condition. My younger sister could not contribute anything the therapist did to her as consistent with the theories provided to her. She thought it made no sense at all and she is a person with a very logical and scientific thinking process (she is a nano tech bio chem scientist who used to teach at Harvard. She finally stopped going and started doing yoga and claims to have the same results...

And Wreick is a REAL medical doctor.

One more thing:

"All I can say is that for pain management the cranial work does help."

But HOW this works you do NOT know. It maybe relaxation and psychological more than actual manual soft tissue and joint treatment techniques for specific orthopedic conditions...

As long as she gets releif, then she should get the treatment. BUT if you cannot explain how a treatment technique works, you cannot say that if it was the theories and the actual techniques intended that is working, but rather many other factors beyond the applied treatment...

And Chronic Fatique is not a made up diagnosis, and possibly has much better explaination than FM as etiology as they are contributing to a viral cause.

Chronic fatique is still very controversial, but it is a daignosis a lot more definate than FM.

If one would use the term as a made up diagnosis, FM is alot more "made up" than Chronic Fatique. You just need a set of unexplained symptons (NOT SAYING the symptons are not real)...

Again, like Wreick said, which is what I have been saying all this time, it is not a non-differential diagnosis of exclusion.

While I first posted here asking for people's experience with Cranio-Sacral, it seems to have creeped to talk about the validity of people's experiences vs. the validity of the medical profession's opinion. Given the title of the message, I think this conversation would be better served on a new thread.

I love it! It's like a very deep energizing, restful experience in only 30-45mins. my jaw has realined, trigger points are smaller and less tension over all.

NYC-maybe you should have been my ex's Dr.!! We spent three years and over 50,000 and the Dr.'s I took her to(over a dozen) came up with FM. She has MRI CT's with and without contrast pet scans countless blood tests, (her cortisol was always very elevated but the endocrinologist could not lower it or figure out why) muscle punch test-very painful. Nurologic and psychiatric tests, although we new she was not faking it or crazy. She was in too much pain and many days she could hardly get out of bed. We looked to NY Magazine's top Doc's and saw the "BEST" money could buy. Many charged 400- 500.00 per visit. Hey, the craniosacral therapy relived pain more than any other treatment modality- pt, chiropractic BS, pressure point therapy you name it. So she still goes till this day. We are still very friendly and talk every week. Also,y oga was too painfull she can not sit cross legged or put weight on her limbs. She is 5'5 125 pounds. She used to do aerobics 3 times a week prior to getting sick, and genetically was blessed with a great body.

You have not posted ANY information to disporve what I have posted. My post is agreed with most MD's, and that ALSO include some of the BEST MDs around... I myself is a bit suspect with rheumatology as a specialized field myself (and this is also shared by many other specilists I work with daily)...

You have not provided ANY discrete CAUSE of your ex's symptons, as it is the case with FM as a diagnosis as we know today...

Craniosacral therapy, it is mostly a "mood altering" relaxation treatment as I have heard, and all the theories I claims to "rest" your skeletal balance is BULL and with ZERO OBJECTIVE and ousnd research to back it up.. "Mod Latering" treatments tends to work also very well with patients with other psychological issues, such as depression. This is the ex girlfriend who waited for you for 8 years and then threatened suicide on you that you mentioned in other threads...?

And I will quote this again about how this is not clinically proven:

http://www.ptjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/78/11/1175

http://www.ptjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/76/2/175

http://www.ptjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/74/10/908

AND some studies even found Cranial Sacral to cause ADVERSE reactions to brain injured patients:

http://www.worksafe.wcb.bc.ca/health_care_providers/Assets/PDF/poster-presentations/non-randomized_controlled_trial_complementary_medicine.pdf

And you will see that studies that support cranial sacral therapy is generally very poorly constructed and not objective, and all are generated by DOs oof the Upledge camp...

I AM NOT SAYING this technique does not work for everyone, it works for some, just as some "faith" healers with touch works on some patients while traditional medical treatments failed...

IF it does works for certain individuals, it is NOT working VIA the MEANS it claims, such as "re-alignment" of the skeletal systems, etc.. Again, that has proven NOT to be the case, or has any theories how this technique works been proven. It is mostly a relaxation "touch" technique that works very well with many patients with a lot of psych history...

And I am not going to continue discussing how the majority medical profession looks upon CranialSacral or FM anymore... AS I HAVE PUT FORTH OBJECIVE EVIDENCE AND CITATIONS TO SUPPORT MY CASE.

Responding to my posts with emotional reactivity but while everything you said fits exactly what I said (I predicted that she was diagnosed by a rheumatologist and NOT any other specialties, I explainedobjectively hot FM is diagnosed, I provided citations on Cranilscarcal therapy, etc) does not indicate ANYTHING...

You can tell yourself to believe whatever you wish, but the research and objective findings are out there if you wish to understand more about either topic (CranialSacral and FM)... I understadn this is en emotional topic, but facts are facts.. It is up to you..

And JUST one more thing to point out...

Yoga is often done as a ACTIVE GROUP class... CranialSacral therapy is PASSIVE and INDIVIDUAL treatment... At least with the patients I have seen, many chronically depressed patients with multiple medical conditions ALWAYS prefer passive modalties and individual attention during a treatment, alomost needy. Some of them would always complain of pain when being treated in a busy clinic, but when the SAME treatment done one to one, al the sudden many of them are able to tolerate the same treatment a lot better with less pain... IT IS JUST AN OBSERVATION.

NYC & WRE: Is it really that unusual for a diagnosis to be made on the basis of ruling things out? Isn't that what the widely diagnosed IBS is? There are all sorts of theories about what causes it -- from stress to an infection -- but they've found nothing definite. What is the difference in the methodology behind diagnosis of FM and IBS?

Mike, your ex-wife's case sounds a lot like my friend's He has spent a zillion dollars trying to get a diagnosis and underwent extensive psychiatric examination. He has likewise gotten some pain relief from gentle hands-on manipulation. Whether it's a placebo effect, I have no idea.

He recently began taking a new drug that has been very helpful.

Interesting you should ask that... My little sister has IBS, and was called by her doctor the "Queen of IBS"...

I am sure Wreick has a much better answer to this as he is a physician and my patient popultion is orthopedics...

But to my limited knowlege, IBS is a bit the same kind of diagnosis as FM...

My sister was very neurotic and diagnosied with OCD and her IBS were the WORST when she was going through a difficult break up... She got all treatments but she also satrted to get cognitive therapy... She became a lot better adjusted after a year of therapy and her IBS flarred up less frequently...

Who knows, the mind is the center of our being and it can put out all sorts of bioehcemial signals for the rest of the body to react upon...

Well, this topic has certainly veered off from it's originators intended purpose.

No, OW, a diagnosis of exclusion is not uncommon, though less so the more and more we know and discover about certain diseases. But I would say there is a certain comfort or vindication in knowing what the disease process is. And yes, IBS is similar in that something is obviously going on but you don't find anything definate, and yes there are definately several correlations between IBS and mental health -- I also have several family members with it, and several friends with FM, and no, I would never make light of what they are suffering for it certainly is very real and obviously something is going on even if we can't exactly explain what or how.

I would also guess that it is more than just a placebo effect with the hands on manipulation. Also there of course is not separation between the mind and body and both are intimately connected and directly influence each other: what is in the mind is as physical as anywhere else in the body.

I also have this question..

OW.. This friend of yours, did he stick to any form of cognitive psycho therapy?

And as afer as Wreick's comment that manual therapy is more than placebo effect... I never suggested that placebo effect is of every case when it comes to manual therapies techniques with poor objective and proven theories, such as that of cranialsacral or even myofacial treatments. I think some cases are puerly placebo, some are not. HOWEVER, I am suggesting that ANY gentle physical touch, valid in a scientific way or not, can have an actual final effect when COMBINED withe the patient's mental mood AND the power of suggesting... MEANING that some manual therapies such as "faith" healing through touch can end up with positive outcomes...

Well, of course there is "comfort" in knowing the cause, but it seems the deep suspicion about FM gets communicated to the patient who takes that on unnecessarily. You see the same thing with Epstein-Barr/CFS. IBS runs in my family and I recall my aunt going through a similar process of self-questioning because she was repeatedly told it was all in her head, a result of stress. (A recent study does observe that anxiety-prone people who had gastroenteritis tended to develop IBS after recovery more often than less anxious types, btw.)

I still don't know what caused my patellar tendons to rupture and nobody can tell me why my kneecaps have migrated. But I'm living with the pain. Since medicine can't do a reliable thing for me, I would be completely open to trying alternative, "unproven" treatments for the pain that didn't require medication.

ANd just one more point..

I have mentioned that some patients with chronic pain syndrome or FM tend to tolerate more treatments when it is one on one and passive... I wonder how much psycho therapy effect this has on these patient... They come in, usually very needy, talks about their lives and misery and pain all through the treatment, they need individual attention, no matter what you are doing to them... Leave them alone? Then they are in so much pain and they need PERSONAL attention...

The thing is, most clinicians are trained to specialize in the field they are trained, meaning a psycho therapist does not treat a joint, and a physical therapist are not trained to do psycho therapy.... I often wonder how much some of these patients would benefit much more in the form of psycho therapy, instead of treating their doctors, nurses, physical therapists, pharmacists, and whoever as if they are all thier psycho therapists...

OW..

Ortho injuries are a bit different... Joints are biomechanical devices... The mechanical forces that ruptured your patellar tendons must ahve occured at the right time at the right angle at the right load and velocity.... How the tendon elongated? That may have to do, again, with the way they were mechanically loaded during your rehab course...

Yes, he did 6 months of cognitive-behavioral therapy at the insistence of his insurance company. That form of therapy is not effective with many people, NYC.

People like it because it is short-term (i.e. cheap), goal-oriented and supposedly produces measurable results. However, there are very few long-term studies. It is an episodic treatment and even people who recover from phobias (for which it is often good) have to go back frequently for "boosters." The longer the study of CBT, the less it appears to be significantly more effective than insight therapy.

I have had many, many clients who had been through CBT and often found it too much like reading a self-help book. I'm not saying it can't be helpful at all, but a lot of people by their nature want a deeper understanding of what makes them (and their neurosis) tick. Creative types, which I work with, are especially that way.

My friend, who was CFO of one of the largest health insurance companies in the nation, found CBT unhelpful. Understand that he has been in pain for nearly 10 years and pushed through it every day. He only recently went on leave.

I dont even know what insight therapy is... I am only familiar with CBT because of persoal exposure with it, and it helped...

Nonetheless, my point is to get help not only from the medical team but also from psycho therapists, no matter what approach specifically...

And my point relavent to this thread, is that many alernative treatment approaches maybe tapping more into the realm of psycho therapy, instead of affecting the final outcome via the means of what they are claiming to do (such as "faith" healing with the power of Jesus, or CranialSacral therapy healing with resetting your skeletal alignment...)

"
Ortho injuries are a bit different... Joints are biomechanical devices... The mechanical forces that ruptured your patellar tendons must ahve occured at the right time at the right angle at the right load and velocity.... How the tendon elongated? That may have to do, again, with the way they were mechanically loaded during your rehab course..."

You're missing my point (and remember that I had two separate accidents, so your purely mechanical explanation would require a high level of coincidence). They have utterly no explanation -- only guesses -- for what may have weakened my tendons and what caused the kneecaps to move afterward. They have no idea, either, whether the tendons are likely to rupture again.

I'm just making the point that there are enormous gaps in medical knowledge and it doesn't do patients any good at all to tell them that their positive experience with an alternative therapy is somehow invalid because of the findings of this or that study. Healing Touch is an example of a practice that seems to provide comfort to many people but studies are not conclusive in part because the measurements are so subjective.

You know that EMDR is a very effective treatment for PTSD. Who would ever think that rapidly moving your eyes back and forth while recalling a memory would so signficantly reduced PTSD? It was laughed at for several years but numerous clinical tests have made it one of the APA's favored treatments.

You know, another example of my strange upbringing is that I grew up with homeopathic doctors and my grandmother was a homeopathic practitioner. (My family's religious tradition was tied to homeopathy.) My father and his 7 brothers and sisters never saw a conventional doctor until they were adults. There are countless studies concluding that homeopathy is voodoo nonsense and there are countless studies that seem to validate it.

"I dont even know what insight therapy is... I am only familiar with CBT because of persoal exposure with it, and it helped...

Nonetheless, my point is to get help not only from the medical team but also from psycho therapists, no matter what approach specifically..."

Ah, agreed. You triggered my voluminous feelings about the ascendancy of CBT, and that's irrelevant to your point.

I'm off to bed.

Well the mechanical loading IS still the key, but what I did not include was the cellular and biochemical tissue consistancy of your teondons... After any injury, the initial material present is all fiber, and over time the body heals by replacing it with the tissues it is supposed tobe, weather it is a bone or muscle or tendon.. But there are still a lot of fiber left and these fibers will eventually mature and change its form and composition, becoming a different kind of fiber that has a very HIGH load charasteristics BUT very limited gap between the the elastic range (permanent deformity) and the fail range (rupture), making the longitudual loading charateristics on a long tissue abnormal, and more prone to future injuries at the SAME site... You see this all the time with hamstring tears, etc..

But back to the point I was making relevan to this thread... I do not beleive that it is doing the patient much good either if false information is given to them either.. One can inform the patient that the alternative treatment is NOT well understood. And for those alternative treatments attempting to explain the pathway how they are effective with theories that sound great to the uneducated public but has no scientific merits what so ever, the clinician NEEDS to tell the patients that these treatment may help them and it is valid in the sense that it brings them relief, BUT it is not valid in explaining WHY they feel better. To NOT warn patients about some of PROVEN false information out there will interfere with OTHER treatments with similar theories... Such as a FM patient, being told that CranialSacral therapyhelps them by "re-setting" their skeletal system, all the sudden one day stepped into a pot hole onthe street, and then contribute all other symptons to this pot hole episode and seek every other treatment therapies to re-set this skeleltal inbalance... WHILE skeletal inbalance was NEVER the casue of his/her symptons...

There is a big difference between telling the patient that an alternative treamtment works, that the relief is valid but the way it works is poorly understood, and that of telling a patient that the alternative treatment is valid at what it is claiming to do...

Ob--Please find out the name of the drug!! Thanks!!

Also, NYC I am not an attorney so I am not trying to prove a "case". Just thank God you do not have this illness. Beware of lack of empathy in your line of work!! Remember when being gay was a mental disorder. Your thinking reminds me of this. You tend to base your advice on things you read in books or hear from a doctor so you believe it to be true! In 5 years they will know more about FM. You might be eating many of your words especially some of the larger ones. It is not wise to state your opinions as fact!!


I agree with you on alot of excercise questions, however I wonder where you went to Med School??? NOT

Also I did not see your picture in top docs in NYC???

You are being very reactive, and I have NEVER said I was a MD as you have seen every where with the posts I have here. I know orthopedic conditions, and I can tell you FM is NOT an ortho diagnosis.

Do you really suggest taht if a "Top" doc you something and then I have no valid information here at all? The fact you are trying to put personally me down here, YET has not provided ANY objective support for what you ar saying, just shows how emotiaonlly reactive you are behaving.

This persaonl attack is not a very becoming character...

And just becasue I put forth the facts on how we do not have an understanding of FM as a diagnosis shows that I am not empathrtic? HOW DARE you??? Do you know what I do for my patients in my personal live? HOW DARE YOU!

I CHALLENG any MD, top or not, to counter what I have posted. If they have found out what FM is, they would have won a big huge price....

I still beleive it is WONRG for the rheumatologist to tell a patient taht you can palpate a muscle tear... That is mis information. That is when a patient asks me how ultra sound works to heal injuries, I give them some false information like it re-alignes cells or something rediculous like that.. That is unethical.

And, if youd o not like what I put forth, do some reearch on GoogleScholar and provide what you say not just with persoal experieicnes but with objective facts. I do not apprecaite your personal attacks and comparative put downs.

I challenge ANYONE to do a complete research on GoogleScholar and read bout FM yourself.

Please do not take it on me or any "top Doc". Let researchers who know more than any of us, who know more than ANY top docs, do the talking about facts and what we know today about FM.

Learn about anything that is told to you, even if they are "Top" docs...

I was hoping you might realize your statements might actually be wrong. You state things as FACT. Scientists are wrong most of the time, that is why they do experiments!! Sadly you do not see yourself in forums as arrogant and omniscient. I have recieved 4 e-mails thus far congratulating me on trying to widen your scope of thinking. One told me he was afraid to e-mail you directly or in forum because of your backlash. I am however NOT afriad. I graduated from Seton Hall and received my MBA in psych. from Princeton, a small little college here in NJ. I am 38 years old and very self aware!! You do not no me at all my familly, friends and collegues would never refer to me as a 13 year old. Obviously don't have all the BEST answers in forums no matter how many tid bids from research you site. Verbal regurgitation of others research can be done by any trained monkey. We all have the library and internet!!! PS you should re read before posting. Your spelling and grammer are horrible, doesn't help add credability to your words, even if you get them from other sources!! Sorry you missed the mark....agian. Instead of reading what I wrote and possibly re- examining your posts you took the low road. Peace I hope you can someday look at yourself objectively!!

---- FROM NYCMusc4Musc Aug 26, 2007 at 6:31 AM
I replied to your reply. I never said I was a MD, and top docs do not know more than scientists who are doing research on the topic.

I do not apprecaite your emotional outburst and put me down personally on public forums. Or make claims about my charaters when it comes to emnpathy. You do not know me, you do not know how many patinets I suppor finacially on a peronal baisis or treat them as my own family, do not act like a 13 year old bastard!

It is not a very nice character.

Hey guys, please remember that getting one's point across in a Forum is difficult sometimes. Statements can't be softened by facial expressions, and you can't soften a statement while you are making it based upon visual feedback.

All of us can get hotheaded. And it's an issue on all types of Forums. Please remember that passion can become the tail that wags the dog sometimes.

Look the commonality on each of these Forums:

1. "Rock Climbing Forums: Main Index
Debates may get heated in here but the forum rules apply as elsewhere. ..."

2. The ISZ Inevitable Free Forum, Blog and Gallery
The types of discussions you'll find are political discussions, ... I encourage debates and know that some will get heated, very heated. ..."

3. MagicTalk Discussion Forum Rules
The discussion may get heated, but that's no reason not to remain civil ...

4. Welcome to the Quilting Forum - About Quilting Message Boards ...
Welcome to the quilting forums at About.com, a place where you can make friends ... Discussions about topics such as religion and politics can get heated. ..."



5. TR Forums ::
It is understandable that some discussions can get heated (such as in the Religion and Politics forum) but try to maintain civility. ..."

Hey knock it off.

If sometimes science, medicine, and rigorous research don't confirm your personal experience or beliefs, then just go on, suspend disbelief, and keep doing/believing/experiencing if you want. I enjoyed the X-men movies even though scientists claim that no mutation can turn your skin into stainless steel. Maybe the right mutation just hasn't been found yet, or maybe the research is flawed. Either way, Colossus is still hot--I believe it and hope that it is my personal experience. But claiming that the entire scientific foundation of modern civilization must be flawed because it doesn't acknowledge that steel skin is hot with the right build, well that's just silly.

Anyway, contrary to some assertions here, most guys don't have access to the research that NYCMusc4Musc and several others post throughout this site. They've helped answer tons of technical questions where the info most of us do have (fitness mags, websites, gym legends) are confusing, contradictory, or plain wrong. It doesn't mean they're right all the time or even most. I've been corrected by some of them on this site, and even though I still disagree it hasn't led to some kind of holy war. It has led to better information and a good debate.

I don't know the first thing about craniosacral therapy, and I just don't care. But attacking medical professionals, researchers (and I don't mean those with an "MBA in psych"), and science in general will just make this site into one big horoscope. And, please, you might not want to go after someone's spelling because you say it undermines their "credability"!

Well said, Pinoy.

I find it frustrating that many in the medical community exhibit a sort or prejudice in favor of conditions with a physical manifestation, such as a torn muscle, over conditions with only mental, or subjective manifestations. I also find it common that certain subjective conditions, such as FM, which are reported more often by women than by men, are taken less seriously by the medical community, as a whole, than conditions reported by men (and I am NOT referring to anyone specific here, just the general population)

Many care providers make statements such as saying that they believe that somehow a patient's pain or other symptoms are real, but because they are not capable or observing a physical manifestation of the symptoms, the condition is somehow less worthy of a diagnosis.

It is only when patented drugs and money become involved that the establishment as a whole suddenly becomes more interested. "Depression" is a perfect example. "While the cause of depression is unknown, Zoloft may help correct a chemical imbalance..." How many times have you heard that? Diagnosis, treatment, cure, but no proven mechanism of action.

Too many professionals feel that if scientists do not understand a condition, it must not be real. But if a pill which alleviates symptoms in a clinically significant number of patients, without also causing any pleasure, can be patented, well then it must be real after all.

Fortunately, things are slowly changing, as scientists learn more about how to observe the activity in the brain. If they can observe changes in the activity in the brains associated with symptoms in a controlled way, then they have a harder time claiming that patients are faking it.

And patients ARE faking it. Disability claims and drug-seeking behavior-based visits are a huge problem. But it's obvious that people seeking to commit fraud would seek out conditions which were hard to objectively verify, and that has NOTHING to do with whether or not the conditions are real in those who are NOT trying to fool providers.

First of all, this maybe my last post here on RJ. It is simply not worht my time get such nasty personal attacks from the likes of MikemikeMike...

Now it is degraded to the point of high school mentality.... Such as posting that one has recieved 4 emails from other memebers complaining about me, etc, etc. Should I resort to counting how many positive and supportive emails I get? You have 4 I have 7?

Or resort to put down my credibability because of my spelling and grammer? I amnot writing a paper here, and I have a wireless keyboard taht does not work so well, and I have the choice to use spell check, but I amnot, because this is a casual public forum.

Or resort to compare degrees of studies to put me down.

I DID NOT PULL WHAT I SAID OUT OF MY BEHIND. I did not make them up. I ALWAYS support my arguemnt with logica and objective research.

And the most troubling is that many whom disagree with are NOT READING what I am saying, but merely looking for a VALIDATION of their personal experiences, and completely ignorant of objective research and scientific findings.

AND if you read what I wrote carfully, I am crtisizing the poorly construct behind diagnosing conditions such as FM or IBS. I have ALWAYS said that the symptons these patients are feeling are many times real. I am pointing out a correlation between the poorly understoood psychological factors with the physical symptons. And I am suggesting psychotherapy treatments in CONJUNCTION with traditional and alternative treatments. I have NEVER suggested just because science cannot explain something, then the condition is fake. It can be faked, but when it is real, it is poorly diagnosed and poorly treated.

Furthermore, I am going to point out any mis-information, be it from a regular Joe or "Top Docs"... I am not just going to keep quiet and go with the "if a top doc says that is what this is, then I do not question and agree." I am not going to advocate ignoring scientific facts just for the sake of validating a personal experience. For example, you cannot diagnose a muscle tear by palpation. You cannot prove CranialSacral therapy, when works, works the way it claims.

It is extremely upsetting when these behaviors that a 13 year old would do out of emotional reactivity, such as comparing and counting how many complains one has received about my postins, or posting my private email to one, is throw at me, AND the person DID NOT EVEN UNDERSTAND what I was saying! Worst oof all, is to assasinate my personal character, calling me lack of empathy, while one has not idea what I do for my patients in my personal life.

OR as some would further blame me for re-starting the discussion of FM and away from CranialSacral Therapy. If you ahve notivces, I was RESONDING to MikemikeMike's endless rants... I did not re-start this topic.

If RJ is a site where one is only looking to gather validation of personal experiences, and would attack anyone who provides logical and factual references and asks them to think and be educated about facts, then I do not belong here.

Thanks for the many, many emails of support.

If I return to RJ, it is only because of the positive encouragement I have gotten. Turst me, it is not worth my time to be attacked in this manner. I have left high school a long time ago.

Thanks OB for the info!

NYC oh woe is me! Mia copa mia copa. No one is asking you to leave the forums. Now that would be 14 year old high school behavior. I got sick of you insisting on asking me for proof of her diagnosis. I lived with her for 8 years she had FM for 4 years. I know you feel you know more on the subject, but frankly I don't care. Also for your own edification the top docs in NYC magazine get their information from research labs and university studies They normally study most of the current information in their given field. They have access to research information you couldn't possibly know about unless you did your own testing on FM. Not just a google search. I'm sorry if I feel a NYC NNJ or CT Board Certified doctor knows more than you about a condition or illness. Do you think I didn't question every medication or treatment they prescribed!!!!!!!!!!! I read what you wrote. Read what others write and think before going off half cocked thinking of your next response and your last internet search. Examine your own psyche- google that!!

I have referred people to you and agreed with you on exercise, but on this I have to go with the many educated men and woman that treated and continue to treat her. I am not with her for other reasons, but I still pay all her medical bills. I thank god she has a qualified PT who comes to the house 3 times a week to her her keep as strong as possible and maintain as much range of motion as physically possible.

Did it occur to you that you might be wrong and others know more than you???

Don't use projection on me. Take your pail and shovel and go home if you can't be with others in the sandbox of life.

Narcissism is a growing personality type that became apparent to psychologists in the 1970's. The ideas of politics and doing for the "greater good" retreated and people grew to be more concerned with the self. There has been a greater concern of health and fitness as well as success and fame, which has led the way of an increasingly narcissistic society.
Primary symptoms of narcissism include:
1. a grandiose conception of self

2. recurrent fantasies of unlimited power, success, love, and beauty

3. craving for constant attention or admiration

4. feelings of rage, humiliation, inferiority, shame, and emptiness as a response to criticism

Secondary symptoms of narcissism include:
1. shallowness in emotional relationships

2. inability to sympathize with others

3. facile as managing impressions

4. strong belief in the right to exploit others


For further information on narcissism
Causes of a Narcissistic Society:
Media culture: Media enters every day life to the degree of defying who we are who are heroes are, who are role models are, and how we live our lives.

Celebrity culture: Celebrity culture is where most fantasies stem from. It is about being seen and being the center of attention. Thus there is a growing want to be on television.

Psychology: Psychology becomes a part of every day life with the increase in therapy and psychological help to focus on the self and the personal problems the self faces.

Body: Individuals have no power in the world today, the only power that the individual can have is control over the body. The importance and stress of physical fitness, surgery, and eating disorders have become mainstreamed into society and culture.

NYC, someone who is a PT can't possibly know as much as an MD in their respective field. " I challenge anyone... " Christ. Mike is a close friend of mine I have known for many years. I tend to agree with his diagnosis. Now if someone was to debate NYC on physical therapy then he would probably know the answer. He is not an MD as he stated, but quotes research like it is his own. Research is speculative. It is a shame NYC deleted his profile, Mike referred guys on here to him about exercise and PT. He spent an inordinant amout of time in forums, hopefully he can use the time for self reflection.

You ought to be very proud of yourself for dancing on the grave of someone you pushed out of this site after he had helped lots of guys with really useful and important information. He saved a lot of us from injuries. The only thing I learned about craniosacral therapy from this whole flame thread was that it apparently induces some guys to be utter jerks who only seem interested in drawing blood.

No one makes anyone do anything!! It's called being an adult. What about the guys he chased out of forums with a barrage of BS. Would you say he pushed them out of participating in forums as well?? Alot-not all- of his info was alot like the info found on "what guys should eat forum." An absurd over exaggerated list of factoids lined with a few big words for credability. After all his idle ballyhoo I learned nothing else about FM!!

"Increase strength of weakend muscle groups at least 1/2 MMT grade so pt. can walk on flat surface such as treadmill at least 15 min duration at more than 2.0 mph with normalized gait in order to perform community distance ambulation"

Case in point-he loved making a case. It was his choice to leave no one elses.

No one makes anyone do anything!! It's called being an adult. What about the guys he chased out of forums with a barrage of BS. Would you say he pushed them out of participating in forums as well?? Alot-not all- of his info was alot like the info found on "what guys should eat forum." An absurd over exaggerated list of factoids lined with a few big words for credability. After all his idle ballyhoo I learned nothing else about FM!!

"Increase strength of weakend muscle groups at least 1/2 MMT grade so pt. can walk on flat surface such as treadmill at least 15 min durati