American Airlines files for bankruptcy

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    Nov 29, 2011 1:13 PM GMT
    Nor surprises here- it was only a matter of time before they were going to do this to get their costs under control.

    http://news.yahoo.com/american-airlines-files-ch-11-protection-121334826.html
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    Nov 29, 2011 5:01 PM GMT
    AA needs to shrink itself, to be plain spoken.

    So sad - what has happened in recent years - to the airline industry. This all started with deregulation in 1978, per my grandfather - an airline exec. who co-founded UAT, later UAL. He was so accurate with that assessment. We're seeing the ramifications to this day. Hopefully AA can pull itself up and out of this........possibly another merger.
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    Nov 30, 2011 1:44 AM GMT
    It's apparent that the airline industry can no longer remain profitable with its current business model. It should be nationalized for security reasons as Israel's is then we can stop the bullshit about 3.5 ounces of liquids as well.
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    Nov 30, 2011 2:08 AM GMT
    Christian73 saidIt's apparent that the airline industry can no longer remain profitable with its current business model. It should be nationalized for security reasons as Israel's is then we can stop the bullshit about 3.5 ounces of liquids as well.

    Would be interesting to see how many guys here agree with your solution. Have assumed because you call yourself a democratic socialist that you are further to the left of your garden-variety liberal. But if they agree with you, that would help calibrate the participants here.
  • JP85257

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    Nov 30, 2011 2:13 AM GMT
    Christian73 saidIt's apparent that the airline industry can no longer remain profitable with its current business model. It should be nationalized for security reasons as Israel's is then we can stop the bullshit about 3.5 ounces of liquids as well.

    The Postal Service cant turn a profit and its "nationalied" What makes you think the gov't can handle airlines?
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    Nov 30, 2011 2:16 AM GMT
    Christian73 saidIt's apparent that the airline industry can no longer remain profitable with its current business model. It should be nationalized for security reasons as Israel's is then we can stop the bullshit about 3.5 ounces of liquids as well.

    Thanks, but no thanks. Flying is already very expensive and nationalizing airlines would drive the fares up even higher, way higher.
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    Nov 30, 2011 2:50 AM GMT
    JP85257 said
    Christian73 saidIt's apparent that the airline industry can no longer remain profitable with its current business model. It should be nationalized for security reasons as Israel's is then we can stop the bullshit about 3.5 ounces of liquids as well.

    The Postal Service cant turn a profit and its "nationalied" What makes you think the gov't can handle airlines?


    The USPS isn't meant to turn a profit and it's financials are screwed by a law that Congress passed mandating it pay for the healthcare of future employees in the present.

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/45018432/The_Truth_About_The_Post_Office_s_Financial_Mess

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    Nov 30, 2011 2:55 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Christian73 saidIt's apparent that the airline industry can no longer remain profitable with its current business model. It should be nationalized for security reasons as Israel's is then we can stop the bullshit about 3.5 ounces of liquids as well.


    You're joking, yes?

    What you're seeing today is the result of a militant pilot's union refusing to agree to more flying hours per month. And now, the pension will max out at $100k/year per pilot.

    Fortunately, AMR took the bankruptcy route now instead of waiting until it was too late, a la the late Eastern Airlines.


    Nope. Dead serious. Airlines worked fine before deregulation in 1978, though it was more expensive, so alternatives like Amtrak were created for shorter trips. An argument could be made the since airlines have been in a race to the bottom in pricing, there's been no pressure to create alternatives.

    As it stands now, flying is a miserable experience for passengers, unprofitable when paying a fair wage, and - as 9/11 proved - a serious security risk to our country. Nationalizing, or - at the very least - significantly re-regulating them would no doubt increase prices but it would have benefits beyond making the industry more stable.
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    Nov 30, 2011 3:08 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 saidWhat you're seeing today is the result of a militant pilot's union refusing to agree to more flying hours per month. And now, the pension will max out at $100k/year per pilot.

    0982009.jpg

    What you're seeing is the result of bad management decisions. But with you right-wingers it's always the workers, always the unions who cause the financial problems. Not the executives who give themselves multi-million dollar bonuses even when they bring whole companies down. Bonuses that would pay for a lifetime of a pilot's hard-earned pension. But of course in Republican Land workers aren't supposed to get pensions, only executives who get bonuses and golden parachutes for a job poorly done, and shareholders who get a few more pennies on their dividends.

    And do you really want pilots to have no protections against management insistence on longer and longer hours in the cockpit? I sure don't wanna be flying with pilots suffering from sleep deprivation. Look what's happened to the air traffic controllers, a perfect example of Republican union busting and its consequences.
  • JP85257

    Posts: 3284

    Nov 30, 2011 3:56 AM GMT
    Christian73 said
    JP85257 said
    Christian73 saidIt's apparent that the airline industry can no longer remain profitable with its current business model. It should be nationalized for security reasons as Israel's is then we can stop the bullshit about 3.5 ounces of liquids as well.

    The Postal Service cant turn a profit and its "nationalied" What makes you think the gov't can handle airlines?


    The USPS isn't meant to turn a profit and it's financials are screwed by a law that Congress passed mandating it pay for the healthcare of future employees in the present.

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/45018432/The_Truth_About_The_Post_Office_s_Financial_Mess


    Correct and you want the airlines nationalized?
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    Nov 30, 2011 4:11 AM GMT
    JP85257 said
    Christian73 said
    JP85257 said
    Christian73 saidIt's apparent that the airline industry can no longer remain profitable with its current business model. It should be nationalized for security reasons as Israel's is then we can stop the bullshit about 3.5 ounces of liquids as well.

    The Postal Service cant turn a profit and its "nationalied" What makes you think the gov't can handle airlines?


    The USPS isn't meant to turn a profit and it's financials are screwed by a law that Congress passed mandating it pay for the healthcare of future employees in the present.

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/45018432/The_Truth_About_The_Post_Office_s_Financial_Mess


    Correct and you want the airlines nationalized?

    Goes to show how some of these guys are on such a different planet, no surprise that logical discussion not possible. Completely different value system and view of the world. Nationalize the airlines, then all auto manufacturers just for starters. Complete inability to see failures of their systems in other countries. Like trying to get the golden rule across to Charles Manson.
  • JP85257

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    Nov 30, 2011 4:21 AM GMT
    socalfitness said
    JP85257 said
    Christian73 said
    JP85257 said
    Christian73 saidIt's apparent that the airline industry can no longer remain profitable with its current business model. It should be nationalized for security reasons as Israel's is then we can stop the bullshit about 3.5 ounces of liquids as well.

    The Postal Service cant turn a profit and its "nationalied" What makes you think the gov't can handle airlines?


    The USPS isn't meant to turn a profit and it's financials are screwed by a law that Congress passed mandating it pay for the healthcare of future employees in the present.

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/45018432/The_Truth_About_The_Post_Office_s_Financial_Mess


    Correct and you want the airlines nationalized?

    Goes to show how some of these guys are on such a different planet, no surprise that logical discussion not possible. Completely different value system and view of the world. Nationalize the airlines, then all auto manufacturers just for starters. Complete inability to see failures of their systems in other countries. Like trying to get the golden rule across to Charles Manson.

    Thats the exact reason I also dont want the government involved in health care.
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    Nov 30, 2011 4:39 AM GMT
    Thanks for posting the article.

    The handwriting has been on the wall for years and there is blame to be had on both sides of the aisle from the executives down to the unions. As sad as I am to see this happen, it had to happen sooner or later. As things begin to clear, I see a much brighter future for AA with the new planes on order to replace those awful MD-80's as well as Boeing 777-300ER's to open up new destinations, i.e. MIA-JNB, MIA-NRT, and DFW-ICN.



    The following section regarding nationalization is presented merely for 'factual' information and is in NO WAY an endorsement of nationalization.

    Now, on to the comment about nationalizing the airline or most US airlines in general. While I am in NO WAY advocating that we do this here in the US, one of the most awarded airlines, Air New Zealand, is majority owned by the government of New Zealand and has one of the best hard products in the industry, hands down. But on the other hand, there are probably a host of features that made nationalization a more acceptable alternative

    The following reputable carriers are fully or partially owned by the state:
    -Finnair
    -LOT Polish (Although plans are underway to privatize the airlines)
    -SAS (Owned partially by the governments of Sweden, Norway, and Denmark)
    -TAP Portugal (Expected to be privatized within five or so years)
    -Aeroflot (Their service has drastically improved since the fall of the USSR)
    -Singapore Airlines (Partially wwned through the state-owned Temasek Holdings)
    -Thai Airways International
    -Sri Lankan Airlines
    -Malaysia Airlines
    -Etihad Airways
    -Emirates
    -Garuda Indonesia

    *Truth be told, these countries and their respective airlines operate under different environments than US airlines; as such, these different environments should be taken into consideration

    Now, there are also some CRAPPY nationalized airlines:
    -Air India
    -Air Koryo
    -Iran Air
    -Conviasa

    Again, I am in NO WAY promoting nationalizing the US airline industry!
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    Nov 30, 2011 4:41 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Christian73 saidIt's apparent that the airline industry can no longer remain profitable with its current business model. It should be nationalized for security reasons as Israel's is then we can stop the bullshit about 3.5 ounces of liquids as well.


    You're joking, yes?

    What you're seeing today is the result of a militant pilot's union refusing to agree to more flying hours per month. And now, the pension will max out at $100k/year per pilot.

    Fortunately, AMR took the bankruptcy route now instead of waiting until it was too late, a la the late Eastern Airlines.

    0982009.jpg


    What you see is a result of poor management. Arpey gets.. err got millions in bonuses each year, while the pilots still haven't gotten their pay restored from 2003 cuts which brought 35% pay cuts to pilot and flight attendants. What a joke. Should we just keep cutting the pay until pilots are paid next to nothing? Maybe then the airline would have been able to survive, but doubtful.
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    Nov 30, 2011 4:56 AM GMT
    I'm waiting...All I see is a link for payrates.
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    Nov 30, 2011 4:59 AM GMT
    mikkeb said
    southbeach1500 said
    Christian73 saidIt's apparent that the airline industry can no longer remain profitable with its current business model. It should be nationalized for security reasons as Israel's is then we can stop the bullshit about 3.5 ounces of liquids as well.


    You're joking, yes?

    What you're seeing today is the result of a militant pilot's union refusing to agree to more flying hours per month. And now, the pension will max out at $100k/year per pilot.

    Fortunately, AMR took the bankruptcy route now instead of waiting until it was too late, a la the late Eastern Airlines.


    What you see is a result of poor management. Arpey gets.. err got millions in bonuses each year, while the pilots still haven't gotten their pay restored from 2003 cuts which brought 35% pay cuts to pilot and flight attendants. What a joke. Should we just keep cutting the pay until pilots are paid next to nothing? Maybe then the airline would have been able to survive, but doubtful.


    Basically, yes. And AA will file bankruptcy, violate all its contracts and still pay the executives big bonuses. And SouthBeach will watch his healthcare and pension disappear while arguing for the douche bags in the board room.
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    Nov 30, 2011 5:00 AM GMT
    socalfitness said
    JP85257 said
    Christian73 said
    JP85257 said
    Christian73 saidIt's apparent that the airline industry can no longer remain profitable with its current business model. It should be nationalized for security reasons as Israel's is then we can stop the bullshit about 3.5 ounces of liquids as well.

    The Postal Service cant turn a profit and its "nationalied" What makes you think the gov't can handle airlines?


    The USPS isn't meant to turn a profit and it's financials are screwed by a law that Congress passed mandating it pay for the healthcare of future employees in the present.

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/45018432/The_Truth_About_The_Post_Office_s_Financial_Mess


    Correct and you want the airlines nationalized?

    Goes to show how some of these guys are on such a different planet, no surprise that logical discussion not possible. Completely different value system and view of the world. Nationalize the airlines, then all auto manufacturers just for starters. Complete inability to see failures of their systems in other countries. Like trying to get the golden rule across to Charles Manson.


    Because the nationalized airlines in other countries are doing, what? icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Nov 30, 2011 5:08 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Christian73 said
    Basically, yes. And AA will file bankruptcy, violate all its contracts and still pay the executives big bonuses. And SouthBeach will watch his healthcare and pension disappear while arguing for the douche bags in the board room.


    We work far less per month than our counterparts at other airlines. It's ludicrous. If the idiot union "leaders" had at least given in on that point, there's a chance BK could have been avoided.



    Right... because what I really want is an exhausted pilot nodding off at the controls and plunging me and 150 other people to our deaths.
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    Nov 30, 2011 5:10 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Christian73 said
    Because the nationalized airlines in other countries are doing, what? icon_rolleyes.gif


    One reason why nationalized airlines "work" (using that term loosely because they really don't work that well) in other countries is because many of those countries have a single major airport that serves the entire country. In addition, many of those countries have (or had until recent years) a single airline.

    The U.S. is completely different with hundreds of airports and dozens of airlines. It's a completely different market where "top-down" centralized control just wouldn't work.


    This is why nationalization works in some countries (Poland, Thailand, The UAE, Indonesia, Malaysia, New Zealand, and Singapore among others) and not in others.
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    Nov 30, 2011 5:13 AM GMT
    If you really think 84,000 dollars a year for a twelve year, MD80 first officer is good money for a pilot, you've got to be joking. I've talked to many FOs there, and there are a lot of 20 year FOs making just that.

    Obviously you don't know the years of sacrifice and hard work it takes to get to become a mainline airline pilot. In fact, most are prior military Officers.

    My local fire department back home pays firemen 130,000/year with a high school diploma.
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    Nov 30, 2011 5:18 AM GMT
    [quote


    Uh... I'm a pilot for American Airlines.

    And flight hours and mandatory rest rules are set by the Federal government.

    Next.... icon_razz.gif[/quote]

    Right.
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    Nov 30, 2011 5:20 AM GMT
    Columbusite777 said
    southbeach1500 said
    Christian73 said
    Because the nationalized airlines in other countries are doing, what? icon_rolleyes.gif


    One reason why nationalized airlines "work" (using that term loosely because they really don't work that well) in other countries is because many of those countries have a single major airport that serves the entire country. In addition, many of those countries have (or had until recent years) a single airline.

    The U.S. is completely different with hundreds of airports and dozens of airlines. It's a completely different market where "top-down" centralized control just wouldn't work.


    This is why nationalization works in some countries (Poland, Thailand, The UAE, Indonesia, Malaysia, New Zealand, and Singapore among others) and not in others.


    That's debatable. Israel has more than one airport. China (obviously) has many airports.
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    Nov 30, 2011 5:25 AM GMT
    Christian73 said
    Columbusite777 said
    southbeach1500 said
    Christian73 said
    Because the nationalized airlines in other countries are doing, what? icon_rolleyes.gif


    One reason why nationalized airlines "work" (using that term loosely because they really don't work that well) in other countries is because many of those countries have a single major airport that serves the entire country. In addition, many of those countries have (or had until recent years) a single airline.

    The U.S. is completely different with hundreds of airports and dozens of airlines. It's a completely different market where "top-down" centralized control just wouldn't work.


    This is why nationalization works in some countries (Poland, Thailand, The UAE, Indonesia, Malaysia, New Zealand, and Singapore among others) and not in others.


    That's debatable. Israel has more than one airport. China (obviously) has many airports.


    As a broad generalization it does work in some cases. icon_cool.gif But like many things, it doesn't work in all cases nor circumstances.

    In regards to the airports, I believe he may have been referring to major international airports, i.e. Thailand has BKK, Poland has WAW, Singapore has SIN, Finland has HEL, and Malaysia has KUL. As such, the aforementioned airports handle most, if not all, of the major international traffic coming into and going out of the selected country. And while there are other major/large airports, they often don't handle nearly as much traffic as the main international airport.

    China is a special exception; but then again, when isn't China a special exception? LOL.
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    Nov 30, 2011 5:48 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    Christian73 said
    Columbusite777 said
    southbeach1500 said
    Christian73 said
    Because the nationalized airlines in other countries are doing, what? icon_rolleyes.gif


    One reason why nationalized airlines "work" (using that term loosely because they really don't work that well) in other countries is because many of those countries have a single major airport that serves the entire country. In addition, many of those countries have (or had until recent years) a single airline.

    The U.S. is completely different with hundreds of airports and dozens of airlines. It's a completely different market where "top-down" centralized control just wouldn't work.


    This is why nationalization works in some countries (Poland, Thailand, The UAE, Indonesia, Malaysia, New Zealand, and Singapore among others) and not in others.


    That's debatable. Israel has more than one airport. China (obviously) has many airports.



    Christian,

    I know you would like to nationalize everything to have a "do-over" of the good old USSR, but it just isn't going to happen. And on this topic, you have two people who actually are in the industry sharing with you their insight, so please try not to be a know-it-all on this particular topic.

    Thanks.


    Eat me.
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    Nov 30, 2011 5:51 AM GMT
    Columbusite777 said
    Christian73 said
    Columbusite777 said
    southbeach1500 said
    Christian73 said
    Because the nationalized airlines in other countries are doing, what? icon_rolleyes.gif


    One reason why nationalized airlines "work" (using that term loosely because they really don't work that well) in other countries is because many of those countries have a single major airport that serves the entire country. In addition, many of those countries have (or had until recent years) a single airline.

    The U.S. is completely different with hundreds of airports and dozens of airlines. It's a completely different market where "top-down" centralized control just wouldn't work.


    This is why nationalization works in some countries (Poland, Thailand, The UAE, Indonesia, Malaysia, New Zealand, and Singapore among others) and not in others.


    That's debatable. Israel has more than one airport. China (obviously) has many airports.


    As a broad generalization it does work in some cases. icon_cool.gif But like many things, it doesn't work in all cases nor circumstances.

    In regards to the airports, I believe he may have been referring to major international airports, i.e. Thailand has BKK, Poland has WAW, Singapore has SIN, Finland has HEL, and Malaysia has KUL. As such, the aforementioned airports handle most, if not all, of the major international traffic coming into and going out of the selected country. And while there are other major/large airports, they often don't handle nearly as much traffic as the main international airport.

    China is a special exception; but then again, when isn't China a special exception? LOL.


    Fair enough. My point is that if you cannot pay your employees a living wage with reasonable benefits and stay solvent, your business model doesn't work. It's that simple.

    I think nationalization or increased regulation is necessary from a safety standpoint. For all the bullshit we're forced to do (take off shows, get irradiated, patted down and groped), we are no safer than we were pre-9/11. Unless actual security, which costs money and requires national coordination, is put in place, we remain at risk for another 9/11.