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As a Gay Catholic Christian, I cannot understand why Christianity is targeted by the GLBT community as evil, old, or pointless insanity. For example the Folsom Day Fair had their "last supper" pic mocking the famous daVinci painting. Some PrideFests have "Hot Jesus" contests, and I can't understand where this hatred or anguish comes from against Christianity.

Can anyone tell me why a good religion like Christianity is intolerable to many GLBTs but a religion of hatred like Islam isn't even spoken out against?

EDIT
After reading all these views and experiences, misunderstandings and misinterpretations, I finally seem to understand why some GLBT ppl have a tendency to think of Christianity as the official Anti-Gay religion. Concurring with your point dcarm, it seems that I now realize that our western society as a whole is way too lazy to go into the specific details, doctrines, or history behind a belief, a statement, or an action, and we all tend to generalize the beliefs of one sect to another as the same.

This forum has also obviously concluded that it is not the religion that is bad, but the followers who do not focus on the religion's teachings, and press their own personal agenda in the name of Christianity. This is the very root of why some GLBT people leave Christianity or oppose it, even though some sects do stay faithful to the teachings of Christ.

I think from the perspective from someone in the UK is that Christianity is the established State religion, it is intertwined in our political system (The Monarch must be a member of the Church of England, and the Bishops have a vote in our upper legislative house, the House of Lords.) As its so entwined with our system it feels like we can give it more flack. Furthermore as most people in the UK are a member of a Christian denomination (practicing or not) that gives a kind-of license to criticise it.

In modern British History the Church and its values (such as abortion and homophobia etc) have been criticised as society developed, and the Church just takes it, and as a Catholic I'm proud of that. Religion is a personal thing and faith should be open to question, and as I already said due to its establishment in Britain its an easy target.

I think that we avoid attacking other religions for numerous reasons. I think its mostly due to political correctness. We don't criticise Judaism due to the holocaust and the fear of being labelled as anti-Semitic. For Islam, well I think we can all guess. A few cartoons sparked mass demonstrations across the globe and a book by Salman Rushdie attracted a fatwa on his life. Furthermore I think there is also a certain fear of being racist when it comes to Islam.

Chapter One in the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins is a good read (I'm up to Chapter 2 at the moment) and goes into the sensitivity of religion. May be worth a look in.

As for the LGBT community especially...In my opinion, because LGBT communities are most advanced/powerful (don't know which term to use) are predominately from 'Christian Countries' or countries with Christian traditions or values it could be a pseudo-rebellion against the religion/dogma which effects them the most.

Will go to the gym and think more on this issue, I'm sure what I have said is open to criticism...

To OP: Haven't watched Fox News much, have you?

But really, here in the US, Islam isn't a threat against gays. It's a big deal in Egypt and most of Africa, Saudi Arabia and Iran. But here Muslims are a small, rather quiet minority.

It really became a big deal when Jerry Falwell of Moral Majority fame, now dead, began making a big deal about gays, in the name of Christ. And Phyllis Schlafly. And Pat Robertson. And just about any televangelist other than Joel Osteen.

The threats became more real when Pat Robertson ran for president. Not that he was a viable candidate, but he founded the Christian Coalition. This spawned Focus on the Family, the Family Research Council, and a half-dozen other anti-gay groups showcased on Fox News.

Last but not least there's Fred Phelps, the deranged preacher who sends his followers to gays' funerals to demonstrate.

For a gay man, it all becomes a little overwhelming. Especially when there ought to be more backlash against these crazies. Oh, there is, but it doesn't make the nightly news.

The Christian Right has been instrumental in pushing same-sex marriage initiatives onto ballots to encourage frightened bigoted people to come out of the woodwork to vote against the gays. Most states have already passed amendments to their constitutions to forbid same-sex marriage.

So here's a question: where've you been the last 30 years?

In support of MAKOJ59 I say to everyone who feels it necessary to bash religion because they feel as though they have put them down, it was not God himself, nor the religion, but people. Mere people who hide under the religion umbrella and have taken their hatred out. I go to church as often as I can, pray everyday, and try to live my life the best I can. Yet everyday I am forced to live with people who make a disgrace and mockery of religion, and make it almost embarrassing to claim my faith. They do not represent me as a Christian, just as the drag queens and leather people at "Pride parades" do not represent my gay lifestyle. This is a great country. We have the chance to speak our minds and live our own lives. Everyone says its unconstitutional to ban civil unions, wether you agree or not, but those same constitutional rights give them the freedom of speech to speak out against gays, just as it gives you the right to call them "crazies." I suggest if you wish to point fingers, you point it to the individuals that you feel "oppress" you, just as you would not want someone pointing their finger at you blaming you for everything they feel is wrong with gay culture.

mickeytopogigio said
Last but not least there's Fred Phelps, the deranged preacher who sends his followers to gays' funerals to demonstrate.

He doesn't only protest gay funerals, he protests military funerals. Saying that military deaths are God's punishment for allowing homosexuals in this country.
I work with a guy who is a fireman out in New Jersey. One of his fellow firemen was killed in Iraq. There were rumors that Phelps gang was going to protest. Had phelps' group shown up it probably wouldn't have been pretty.

As to the OP, most of us weren't raised in Islam, or really have had to deal with it much. But we were raised in some form of Christian church. So we spent our entire childhoods hearing how gay=bad. Which as we came to terms with ourselves, tuned at least partially into us=bad. So there's probably some left over resentment about that.

Favorite bumper sticker (I know it's not this thread)

"Jesus, save me from your followers."

Let me start by saying although I am not a Christian, I have a great deal of admiration and profound respect for the mystical tradition of the true Christian religion, the real one, behind today's facade of a religion. It is the modern implementation of Christianity, and yes it is people's implementation of Christianity, not Christianity itself that has become the loathsome thing that it is today.

I think a large part of the reason that Christianity is given little tolerance in the LGBT world, is because Christianity today offers little tolerance of its own. Modern Christians have brought this condition upon themselves, with hypocrisy, casting judgment, belittling, condemning, and other things that they weren't supposed to be doing. It's the way of the modern Christian to only pay attention to the stuff in the Bible that suits their cause at any one time, while ignoring all the other stuff about avoiding hypocrisy, and not judging thy brother.

Modern Christianity seems to continue to drive home this George Bush'esqe point that you are either with us or you're against us. I can't tell you how many times that some Christian has told me that only Christians go to heaven. All the Muslims, all the Buddhists, all the Hindu's, all the Jain's, and all the rest that are not Christians are going to hell. Telling anyone and everyone that doesn't happen to agree with your world wiew that they are going to hell doesn't do a lot to warm up anyone to the cause, let alone a group of people like the LGBT's. LGBT people have long tolerated hypocrisy, judgment, condemnation, narrow-minded intolerance, prejudice, discrimination, fear mongering, hatred, and acts of violence. All acts of violence start in the mind as an act of viewing others as seperate and different from ourselves. So when the LGBT is faced with these same reactions from so called "Christian's" then the response can't be expected to be positive.

Jesus was a wonderful teacher that brought a message of love, tolerance, forgiveness, and peace; yet most of the christian churches would rather concern themselves with "the battle against": homosexuality, abortion, divorce, false religions, alcohol and drugs, teen pregnancy, political parties, etc. They are so damn busy with "the battle against" that they forget Jesus brought forth one new commandment, and that commandment was simply to love one another. I don't know if you've read the same version I have, but that commandment didn't come with qualifiers. He didn't say love only hetrosexuals, or love only other Christians, or love only republicans; indeed by deed and word he showed the world that we are supposed to love those that are hardest to love. As you have done onto the least of these, you have done onto me, he said; he saved prostitutes saying let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Where do you see any evidence of modern Christians living in dicipleship of the pure brand of love, tolerance, foregiveness, and compassion that is Jesus taught?

Instead, modern Christians ignore the story of the love affair between David and Jonathon, and brandish some old testament scripture that they interpret to condemn homosexuality. Keep in mind this comes from the same book that requires us to make blood sacrifices of animals to the high priest of the church. It also seems that with few exceptions, Christians stubbornly hold onto illogical, fanciful notions, saying you just have to have faith, instead of allowing the religion to grow, adapt and transform itself in response to discoveries in the universe; as if God suddenly quit talking to people 2,000 years ago. In the process its become stubbornly dogmatic, obsolete, and has driven people away from the church in a mass exodus.

The churches work on building up multi-million dollar building funds while people go hungry in their communities. Rather then making a real difference and following the example of Jesus, they all adopt a highway some Sunday afternoon so they can get their good deed in but not really have to have any real contact with the dirty, the hurting, the downtrodden, the homeless or the hungry.

Chrisitianity in the United States today is nothing short of a mockery of what I believe Christ intended, and the LGBT has been around to many corners not to see hypocrisy, judgment, and intolerance when its put so clearly before them.

"Why is Christianity often targeted by the GLBT community?"

This is like asking "why do you put a baby in the blender feet first?" The answer is obvious: so you can watch it's expressions.

I have to be honest. I never realised just how messed up "some"Christians are in the US. I have heard of some family or group, that dedicated their lives to riding the world of gays. Not sure if they call themselves Christian or not. I think they were planing a trip to Ireland

Those people, that have that hate for gays, can call themselves Christian, but they are not Christian.

"Christian" does not mean hate, it means love.

There is too much generalising done on this website when it comes to Christians. Way too much.

I am proud to be Catholic. I take offence of the generalising that goes on here. I have got the view from two guys here on RJ that, I am lowlife, second class, because I am Catholic. Those two know who they are, so if I am wrong on this they can comment. I think there are probably more than them that think that, but it got kind of personal with those two.

I will back any of you up in condemning those peoples hatred, but I would not back you up in condemning Christianity. Those are just messed up people.

You can look at any religion, or any group of people, race, nationality, and you will find people that hate others for some reason or other. If there was a group of Irish people that hated Americans, would you, Americans hate all Irish people, because of that? If there were a group of Americans that hated Irish people, would you like if all Irish people hated Americans because of that?

You are stooping to their level. Don't let them do that to you.

Mike

I dislike all three monotheistic religions. There is nothing benign about any of them although christianity and especially islam have a really mean spirit. Christianity is oppressive and islam is oppressive and murderous. Especially towards us LGBTers.

I don't subscribe to any beliefs in a supernatural entity, unless you consider Uncle Sam a supernatural entity. I worship American culture, the American flag is my idol. John Locke/Thomas Hobbes/Voltaire/Jean Jacques Rouseau/J. S. Mills/the American founding fathers are my prophets.

My Wiccan friends are a lot of fun although I just can't really worship their mythical supernatural entities either. But dancing naked in the woods must be more fun than praying on knees.

My particular problem with Christians is; they're really screwing up my political party. I wish the Christian nuts would go Democrat.

I agree with what you say about islam though. The LGBT community is partucularly mute there. Christians usually don't strap on bomb belts. The LGBT community doesn't want to provoke them. Christians, as an organized religion are not usually so lethal.

John43620 said
I agree with what you say about islam though. The LGBT community is partucularly mute there. Christians usually don't strap on bomb belts. The LGBT community doesn't want to provoke them. Christians, as an organized religion are not usually so lethal.

Hold on...........I get it. Christians are bash-able because you're not afraid they will blow you up Islam is not because you are afraid they will

Yeah, I think I get it now.

Put simply, you're a coward

"God hates fags!"

The story of Sodom and Gamorrah.

Christian Coalition

"homosexuality is a sin"

same-sex marriage bans

Focus on the Family

"Homosexuality is a biological flaw."

Gay bashing/beating/murder: hate crimes



WHY HAVE YOU NOT BEEN PAYING ATTENTION? HOW CAN YOU ASK THIS QUESTION?

*retracted* I read through too quickly.

mickeytopogigio said
It really became a big deal when Jerry Falwell of Moral Majority fame, now dead, began making a big deal about gays, in the name of Christ raising huge sums of money with "gay agenda" hysteria.

I fixed this for you. Hope you don't mind.

MikePhil said, "I have to be honest. I never realised just how messed up "some"Christians are in the US. I have heard of some family or group, that dedicated their lives to riding the world of gays. Not sure if they call themselves Christian or not. I think they were planing a trip to Ireland
Those people, that have that hate for gays, can call themselves Christian, but they are not Christian.
"Christian" does not mean hate, it means love.
There is too much generalising done on this website when it comes to Christians. Way too much.
I am proud to be Catholic. I take offence of the generalising that goes on here. I have got the view from two guys here on RJ that, I am lowlife, second class, because I am Catholic. Those two know who they are, so if I am wrong on this they can comment. I think there are probably more than them that think that, but it got kind of personal with those two.
I will back any of you up in condemning those peoples hatred, but I would not back you up in condemning Christianity. Those are just messed up people.
You can look at any religion, or any group of people, race, nationality, and you will find people that hate others for some reason or other. If there was a group of Irish people that hated Americans, would you, Americans hate all Irish people, because of that? If there were a group of Americans that hated Irish people, would you like if all Irish people hated Americans because of that?
You are stooping to their level. Don't let them do that to you."



I gotta ask, are you an OUT CATHOLIC? I didn't think so. Come out, actively participate (sing in choir/usher/read the liturgy/assist in offering the Eucharist) in your parish and then report back to us about how proud you REALLY are.

I was a Christian, now a Deist. With that out the way...

Re the OP:
My guess is that in western culture, there is a voluble group of anti-gay Christians, and other groups who do good things but are less front-page or whatever.

And so the Public Image of Christianity is tainted by the voluble antis, while the more useful, actually-trying-to-help-people groups are ignored unless you already know about them.

Because the Public Image of Christianity is anti-gay, and in "Western" Nations (Like Australia, USA, etc) the one people are most likely to run across, I think that's why the GLBTI (I for Intersex in the Australian nomenclature) community has a general anti-christian attitude.

I doubt the GLBTI anti-Christian sentiment affects interpersonal relationships for many people, but it would affect their choice of functions most likely.

Put simply, I think it's a PR issue. The vocal group is anti-gay, and Christianity is the highest-profile religion (for the nitty-gritty stuff) in western countries. It doesn't help when Bush says he's on your side, either... or John Howard...

As for the Islam bit, like lots of people (I suspect) I basically don't know enough about it to be offended by it. The same goes for a lot of other religions. Christianity's been "the name of the oppressor" relative to the Western GLBTI community, so they're the ones that are resented within it.

My suggested fix? Get a pro-gay pro-christian protest happening somewhere poignant, alert loads and loads of the press ahead of time, and get some big numbers happening. Equal profile, opposite message should just about cancel out any future messages from the anti crowd.

Re MikePhil:
"They are not Christians"? It's like saying "Islamic Terrorists" aren't really Muslim. They label themselves as such and so they tar the community they claim. I understand the intent behind your saying it, but it doesn't achieve the purpose, because they probably say the same thing about you, and almost definitely louder. For that tactic to work you need a widely agreed upon standard among denominations for "what is a Christian" and that standard needs to be broadcast in such a way that everyone will know the standard, whether they're devout Christians, Muslims, or Atheists. And then what happens when people don't agree with the current "This is a Christian" standard? That's how we got the denominations in the first place.

"There is too much generalisation" most places when it comes to Women,Men,(Insert Nationality Here),Dogs,Cats,Gay Guys, Lesbians, Bisexuals, Transgender Folks, (Insert Religion Here), City Inhabitants, Young People, The Elderly...
Seriously, take a number on the generalisation thing, It's not unique to this website or to Christianity. If people didn't generalise the world would probably be a much nicer place. But it may also take a long time to say something without them.

Re both of you:
I hope you find this a reasonably thought-out response.
I understand the frustration you have on the topic, it still frustrates me as well.

outdoorsman704 saidWe have the chance to speak our minds and live our own lives. Everyone says its unconstitutional to ban civil unions, wether you agree or not, but those same constitutional rights give them the freedom of speech to speak out against gays, just as it gives you the right to call them "crazies." I suggest if you wish to point fingers, you point it to the individuals that you feel "oppress" you, just as you would not want someone pointing their finger at you blaming you for everything they feel is wrong with gay culture.

Well said, outdoorsman. Religion, in whatever form, is man-made (and by implication, fallible and imperfect). Faith is divine.

During my years of immersion in far-right Christianity and ultra-conservative politics (yes, I was even a Rep. caucus leader for two election cycles), I saw very little actual gay bashing. I did, however, often hear the condescending "hate the sin but love the sinner" sentiments, along with some rather misguided perceptions about what the gay lifestyle and "agenda" are all about. I also encountered a lot of messages and teachings that suggested that gays reject religion (i.e., Christianity) simply because its moral codes are contrary to the gay lifestyle, and accountability to a higher being would imply the need for a radical personal change. In other words, gays like their "addiction" and don't want to sacrifice erotic pleasure for piety.

During those years, I came to believe that homosexuality was the byproduct of a dysfunctional upbringing (i.e., negative relationship w/father, over-identification w/mother, rejection by same-sex peers, etc.) and a sensitive temperament, but not, by any means, a byproduct of genetics. I also came to believe that homosexuality could be "cured" through faith and reparative therapy, and based upon those assumptions, I spent (wasted?) many years seeking to overcome the blight of homosexuality that was upon me.

Of course, over time, I learned that reparative therapy is a fraud and that learning to love and accept oneself, as one is, is really the essence of that fullness of life Christianity and other religions often promise, but rarely deliver. Striving to become a better man, woman, father, mother, citizen, etc. -- regardless of sexual orientation -- is not pre-conditioned upon a fundamental overhaul of one's true essence.

Sociologically speaking, I do think that many of the neo-con persuasion have co-opted Christianity in order to drive various political agendas, seeking to inculcate the masses w/a particular world view by brute force. That is the allure of religion -- it offers a very powerful and seductive command and control structure. If you can lead the masses to believe that they are personally bankrupt and completely unworthy, they become quite pliable and are easily entranced by the aura of charismatic (if misguided) religious leaders and teachings.

In that regard, I think that it is quite appropriate for the gay community to call a spade a spade, but doing so in a respectful and non-judgmental spirit. As for Christianity, Jesus came to set us free, not to enslave or suppress us. His message is one of abundance, hope and joy, and by that standard, and by applying this litmus test, you can cull through the cacophony spewed by a vocal minority to find messages of love, hope and transcendence. On the other hand, hate begets hate, and thus, I think the gay community does itself quite a disservice by failing to take the high road instead of bashing Christianity and religion as a matter of policy.

To those of you who posted while I thought out & edited my previous response...

CoolArmyDude:
Your first post is exactly my point about the PR thing.
Your second though, assumes itself to be a rhetorical question when it shouldn't be. Consider my two dear lesbian friends who are known throughout their parish to be lesbians, although it's not specifically mentioned. They are asked and invited to read the liturgy together for their parish Christmas and Easter services amongst other things.

Global_Citizen:
That's the point they're making. And for the record, it's not all about making money. Some places actually do try to help their surrounding suburbs/international causes/whoever needs help, some even do it without expecting any kind of conversion either.

1969er:
aren't you making the case for why Christianity is intolerant of the GLBTI community rather than the other way around?

They started it

McGay saidThis is like asking "why do you put a baby in the blender feet first?" The answer is obvious: so you can watch it's expressions.

RJ should have some sort of award ceremony for the funniest post, most thoughtful, most helpful, etc.

I nominate this for the most twisted.

In view of the physiognomy of some of the men here, I suggest we call the award the "Abby".

I don't see Folsom's picture of the Last Supper in Leather as an affront against Christianity. The Last Supper was a painting by da Vinci, a gay man, that was painted in the 15th century. It's not like he was sitting for a portrait.

Besides, wouldn't it have been odd for them all to be sitting on one side of the table? How can you have a conversation like that?

the religion itself isn't bad, since jesus's core tenets were love and unconditional acceptance- but what it's become as a political organization and cultural construct of sanctimonious judgement and unacceptance is insufferable. the original mystical teachings of the gnostic christians were beautiful, and the early christian cult was revolutionary in their acceptance of others- but as soon as constantine turned the increasingly popular cult into an engine of the state, it became hopelessly corrupted with power and agenda. the ORGANIZATION is wicked, and many of its followers have hurt us in its name. people have spent 2000 years ignoring jesus's main message, and instead have turned to infighting and nit-picking over values and morals- which are really social constructs designed for order in a time and place, and so evolve with culture, having nothing to do with God (if i had my way they'd be separated from religion like religion's separated from government- they serve different purposes.) fighting and arguing is what the church does best- usually for the wrong reasons. this trend has led to such enlightening times as the dark ages, the crusades, the inquisition, witch burnings; its backward thinking fought science every step of the way in the enlightenment, and even today the church is bound up in hypocrisy and stagnation, fueling homophobes and bigots around the globe with verses to spew, not saying anything at all about how unchristian hate or unacceptance in any form really is. in fact, within the construct of their own religion, isn't Satan the one who presides over wrathful judgement, accusation, pride and arrogance?

it represents to many of us everything that's backward-thinking and unhealthy in the world concerning being gay; clinging to outdated values and ideas, burdening us with unwieldily guilt or shame, and damning us to hell- of COURSE that's not going to make us happy with them. the most liberal of the priests will tell you some hogwash like, 'well..... i guess you can BE gay... just don't ACT on it if don't want to burn.' to this day they insist its a choice. i'm sorry, i must NOT be an authority on the subject when i tell you i was born gay and can no more 'change' than an albino could. yet they have gay concentration camps in this country, like Camp Kratz, that involve electroshock therapy and severe emotional trauma to get kids to act straight and suppress their natures. can anyone blame us for being offended? not to mention the fact that the only reason we can't get married is because the christians take umbrage, nit-picking as only they do best, with the word being applied to us.

on a more individual level, i think that most of the experiences we have with homophobes or with estranged family or friends occur in the name of christian values- at least, that's what everyone who 'has a problem with it' always falls back on. again, can anyone blame the rebellion? why don't we speak out against islam too? well the media's doing a good enough job, for one- we can watch movies where they get blown up lol- but more truly, its because Islam's fundamentalistic ignorance hasn't touched our lives as directly and painfully in this hemisphere, or as destructively, as the church's.

finally, it puts itself on a high golden pedestal, and people or organizations that do that are always begging to be knocked down- and people by nature are willing to oblige :p
that enough of an answer for you? now tell me, why do you love the church?

makoj59 said

Can anyone tell me why a good religion like Christianity is intolerable to many GLBTs but a religion of hatred like Islam isn't even spoken out against?

Wow! Somebody who thinks HIS religion is "good" and not a religion of "hatred"!

This is typical of the delusional poison that defines all religion.

makoj59 saidAs a Gay Catholic Christian, I cannot understand why Christianity is targeted by the GLBT community as evil, old, or pointless insanity. For example the Folsom Day Fair had their "last supper" pic mocking the famous daVinci painting. Some PrideFests have "Hot Jesus" contests, and I can't understand where this hatred or anguish comes from against Christianity.

Can anyone tell me why a good religion like Christianity is intolerable to many GLBTs but a religion of hatred like Islam isn't even spoken out against?

I think it's a direct reaction to the fact that the politically active Christians speak out about homosexual rights, saying the Bible says it's a sin, while ignoring everything else the Bible says is a sin.

In my opinion, the majority of 'gay culture' springs from not feeling accepted by mainstream culture.

agreed

An empty profile and then you ask this question. I see a connection.

Everything czarodziej wrote above. Well said.

I think you'd find less ire against Christianity if the gay loving moderates and liberals would tell these hard right conservatives that are giving them a bad name to shut the fuck up.

Look, you say we can't make generalities about your religion, while making a generality about Islam.

If you want people to see Christianity as a religion of love rather than an old fashioned bigoted institution more interested in money and politics, you have to stand up against the people making it look that way. If more liberal Christians would loudly disavow the conservative hate mongering ones, then maybe we'd be less likely to group you all together. But when you sit back and say nothing, they get to be your voice.

Also, you specifically are a member of an echelon Church. That is, whether you like it or not, the Pope speaks for your entire church. And he is not in the least bit friendly or tolerant towards gayness. I know that there are individual parishes that don't follow that, but as a society we don't see those. We see only your upper echelons, who've done nothing but tell us we're horrible people going to hell. That's not exactly friendly and loving.

Hatred is an extremely strong word. Do you really believe gay people direct *hatred* towards Christians?

Christianity's view of LGBT people is very complex, and in fact is as broad as the term "Christianity" itself. Some, perhaps even many, Christians, such as the Archbishop Desmond Tutu, have not only accepted but celebrated LGBT people:

"The totality of our love makes each of us grow to become increasingly godlike and compassionate. If this is so for the heterosexual, what earthly reason have we to say that it is not the case with the homosexual?"

and yet there are many Christians who are not; there are many who maintain bigoted opinions in private and others who seek homosexual prohibition.

The lack of love from some LGBT people for the Christian faith is invariably linked to intolerance shown to them, and a failing on the part of liberal Christianity to be as loud as their fundamentalist relations.

On the other hand, who says that people do not speak out against injustice to LGBT people in other countries? I most certainly do. Indeed, a recent gratifying development is that British embassies are now flying flags at pride events and LGBT issues are now a concern of British foreign policy, embassies having been briefed on LGBT issues in their respective countries.

Regrettably, I think the true answer to your question is that people do not understand the affairs of those far-distant people about whom they know nothing, and moreover they see little influence they can exert on the predicament of those unfortunate people. Those of us that do have no regard for religion when we criticise immoral acts of others.

It is primarily from the ignorance and intolerance that has been loudly preached from several Christian pulpits. It is because of narrow-minded right wingers that Christianity is a detested religion in the gay community. These right wing wackos use Christianity as their personal weapon of oppression against gays and lesbians, much more so gay men. The Roman Catholic Church especially has swung too far to the right on this and other major social issues. Because of these developments, it appears that Christianity is a very intolerant, oppressive religion. However, Islam is even worse.

coolarmydude said[b]

I gotta ask, are you an OUT CATHOLIC? I didn't think so. Come out, actively participate (sing in choir/usher/read the liturgy/assist in offering the Eucharist) in your parish and then report back to us about how proud you REALLY are.

Why ask a question if you are going to answer it yourself

Anyway, you guessed right My religion has nothing to do with me not being out. I don’t and never have participated in the church the way you say. I go to church because it is a nice atmosphere to pray, and focus on things. Also, I can't sing, as for the rest, I'm shy We are not all religious fanatics like you Americans, you know

If I were asked to leave the church because I am gay, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest, and I would still be proud to be Catholic. The church is not the building, or the priests, or just the people in one particular parish. The Catholic church is all the Catholic people. Well, us sane ones

In my parish there are two priests. One young, one old. Yes the old one may be homophobic, but although I cant be sure, I would be surprised if the young one was. I'm pretty sure he would not ask me to leave. If all the people in church tomorrow (Sunday) were told I was gay. I believe the majority would accept me. I know this is a shocker for you Americans But there is a world outside America. You should all check it out. It is really cool

MikePhil saidI know this is a shocker for you Americans But there is a world outside America. You should all check it out. It is really cool

That's completely unnecessary. Many here are pretty well traveled. I've even been to Ireland, believe it or not.

Simply it has been the tendency of some Christians to attack Gays, so some Gays attack back. Humans in general tend to externalize the source of evil or problems in general. It happens in both believers and non-believers.

When they can't identify the source of your own suffering and pain, animals will simply attack any external object:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1404406&blobtype=pdf

dcarm said
Re MikePhil:
"They are not Christians"? It's like saying "Islamic Terrorists" aren't really Muslim. They label themselves as such and so they tar the community they claim. I understand the intent behind your saying it, but it doesn't achieve the purpose, because they probably say the same thing about you, and almost definitely louder. For that tactic to work you need a widely agreed upon standard among denominations for "what is a Christian" and that standard needs to be broadcast in such a way that everyone will know the standard, whether they're devout Christians, Muslims, or Atheists. And then what happens when people don't agree with the current "This is a Christian" standard? That's how we got the denominations in the first place.

"There is too much generalisation" most places when it comes to Women,Men,(Insert Nationality Here),Dogs,Cats,Gay Guys, Lesbians, Bisexuals, Transgender Folks, (Insert Religion Here), City Inhabitants, Young People, The Elderly...
Seriously, take a number on the generalisation thing, It's not unique to this website or to Christianity. If people didn't generalise the world would probably be a much nicer place. But it may also take a long time to say something without them.

Re both of you:
I hope you find this a reasonably thought-out response.
I understand the frustration you have on the topic, it still frustrates me as well.

It's amazing how when I generalise on here, I get slapped across the face for it, but it is acceptable for others Would it have anything to do with the fact that I'm Catholic

And yes, I thought it was a reasonably thought-out response. Thank you for that

Poor MikePhil! Him aways gots to be the defender of the faith on RJ.

"Back, back, you heathens! Back I say!"

TigerTim saidHatred is an extremely strong word. Do you really believe gay people direct *hatred* towards Christians?

In a word, yes. As much as it pains me to say that. Not all though, but a large number. I have tasted the venom here on RJ.

MikePhil, no one hates you for being Catholic. that would make us as bad as our self-proclaimed adversaries. we're railing against the Church, not against christianity as its meant to be (and is practiced properly by many), nor against individual practitioners who are lucky enough to have gotten the message right.

i think that you perhaps exemplify much of the danger of organized religion: that individuals confuse themselves with the establishment, and take all criticisms of the organization as personal attacks. its why people fight and die for their religions- pretty clever manipulation on the part of those at the top- but for your own sake, don't take anti-Catholic sentiments so personally. they have no bearing on you.

Firstly, MikePhil raises some extremely interesting questions: where is the power in the Catholic Church? Is it really at the top as DiverScience implies with "the Pope speaks for your entire church" (which is of course true) or is the power truly as MikePhil suggests "The Catholic church is all the Catholic people"? In actuality, the Catholic church's position on many issues has changed (albeit slowly). It is inconceivable that the impetus for this was solely external.

A more nuanced analysis than either of these is necessary, because the official Catholic viewpoint (the "Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics" of 1975) is internally inconsistent and out of step with a sizable majority of grassroots beliefs. It is not a trivial matter to answer this: What does the Catholic Church in fact believe?

Secondly, I think it's important when debating Christianity capitalised that the term itself does not go unquestioned. That word is so strained by the claims and counter-claims laid upon it how can we use it so casually? Highly telling, and fascinating, words from John43620: " they're [Christians] really screwing up *my* political party" [My emphasis] Whose party?

Thirdly, I don't feel that trying to hold a nuanced view of Christianity is inconsistent with my atheism, or my belief that organized religion is at heart a bad thing. After all, Christians are people too and we are inconsistent if we do not extend to them the tolerance that they have sometimes failed to show us.

czarodziej saidnot against christianity as its meant to be (and is practiced properly by many)

This is a remarkable claim! Who decides what is "meant to be"? By what criteria are we to judge that it is being "practised properly"?

I think it's a bit rich to criticize the monolithic power of the Catholic Church and then assert an counter-orthodoxy!

czarodziej saidMikePhil, no one hates you for being Catholic. that would make us as bad as our self-proclaimed adversaries. we're railing against the Church, not against christianity as its meant to be (and is practiced properly by many), nor against individual practitioners who are lucky enough to have gotten the message right.

i think that you perhaps exemplify much of the danger of organized religion: that individuals confuse themselves with the establishment, and take all criticisms of the organization as personal attacks. its why people fight and die for their religions- pretty clever manipulation on the part of those at the top- but for your own sake, don't take anti-Catholic sentiments so personally. they have no bearing on you.

I beg to differ, one guy told me he was hostile (I believe that was the word used) Hostile is used in the definition of hate. Another one insulted me personally because I kept rubbishing his nonsense. The insult had no basses in the argument at all.

Mentally ill
Dangerous
Deluded
Stupid

Oh yeah, there is definitely hate. Most of the above if not all has been directed at me personally at one time or another.

MikePhil, you were *flamed* in an online messaging board by, as I recall, people or rather a person who has not displayed a remarkable degree of coherence in any case.

Is that hatred? I find it difficult to reconcile this definition of hatred with the violence that my Zimbabwean cousins face, or when my ex-boyfriend was beaten up for being a fag.

Those things were certainly obnoxious, uncalled for, inappropriate and untrue.

(I haven't read all of the comments above, so sorry if this is redundant.)

Christianity is "targeted" because it serves as the basis upon which many gain their ideas about masculinity/femininity/gender roles and their subsequent ideas about human sexuality, leading many towards homophobia. While I wouldn't go so far as to say religion (i.e. Christianity) is at the base of all homophobia, it is a major part of the foundation. I think people also come down on Christianity because it's so condescending to gender deviation and homosexuality while still being so tolerant and permissive of violence and warfare. How many mass murders BY GOD are there in the Old Testament? Enough surely. How many men have been killed in hate crimes because their murderers believed "fags" to be acting against His will? Enough.

(FYI, I think the figure of Christ had a lot of good things to say for humanity and the faith so often brought forth in his name but a perversion of his ideas.)

why is christianity often targeted by glbt community'' . no offence but this question is so silly. ofcourse it happens. SODOMY ! where is this term coming from? it is coming from bible and defines a big sin. how should glbt feel about being seen this way just because their sexual idenity(which cant be choosed)

I have to say this, guys, I used to be very anti-gay because I was a Mormon. I had gay friends, but never would condone their "lifestyle". OMG, how things change. I got on RJ initially to "teach" you guys that being gay was controllable and a "choice". It was my own ignorance of who and what gay and lesbians are, and my fear of my own sexuality. It was more like you guys taught me a lesson, instead, because here I am a year and a half later, gay, with a boyfriend, and a leatherman, to boot (no pun intended).

As I reflect on this whole topic, it occurs to me that Christianity is not inherently evil, but rather the followers who cannot tolerate the growth of a living religion. Christianity generally teaches very good principles of human relations, and spiritual growth on the individual level.

Here's a thought - Christianity's parent religion, Judaism, forbade the consumption of various foods. Christ's chief apostle, and the then-president or leader of the Christian church, Peter, received a vision from the resurrected Christ commanding him to eat of those "unclean" foods, which is the basis of our current consumption of those same foods in judeo-christian culture. There was a very good reason for not eating a lot of those foods - lack of refrigeration, parasites, and so on.

So think about it. Hebrews were the descendants of one family. In small numbers, they were vulnerable. They needed to increase their progeny. Homosexuality thwarted that effort. Thus, the commandment. Ditto with the early Christian church.

Now, we face new challenges with overpopulation, pollution, etc. A living religion addresses new challenges. We are told that Elohim is a God of love and compassion to the point that he sent Jehovah to sacrifice himself to help us learn the principles of happy living. Does it not make sense that He would want us to be happy? Are we not happy as homosexuals?

I think that the biggest thing that we can do is to turn the Christians' own religion on them and NOT return railing for railing and injury for injury, but love them and educate them and forgive them and serve them. We need to show them who we are inside. There is a saying that "You cannot hate him whom you serve". Also, it is said of Christ that "We loved him because he loved us first."

I will say again that as gay men, we should be the most compassionate of ALL men!

Those are my thoughts. Take them for what they're worth.

makoj59,

if you visit my profile you will see the Last Super photo that was an advertisement for the Folsom Street Fair.

I do not consider that photo mocking at all, but a far more realistic view of the fact that Christ invites anyone to His table. The path to salvation is not through any constrained view that the Catholic Church or any organized religion may hold nor in fact through the church itself. If it were, then the "Church" would have been crucified and not God in the flesh.

GLBT people in general have been the scape goat for the last two generations of religious folk in their efforts to control and use society in support of their own often twisted beliefs. (A recent example being the scape goat of gays as the sole reason a certain church was full of child molesters. Child molesters the church protected by the way.)

So why don't we rail againt the church?

Tom

OMG. You all REALLY need to see this. It was originally posted in the thread: The root of all evil? by swimbikerun
It more or less breaks down how religion and faith have caused wars and how detrimental fundamentalism is to the human race. It is VERY eye opening and makes many valid points. I was so taken by it that after watching the 1st one, I immediately went on google video to watch then 2nd one.
You may not agree w/ everything he is saying but it is mos-def worth watching if only to gain a new perspective.

Christianity is 'targeted' because it's the established religious power structure -- a structure that blames gays for both Katrina and 9/11, and promotes politicians who oppose equal rights.

Something like 90% of all Americans identify themselves as Christian. Ok, so if this was really a 'good' religion overall, then shouldn't America be kind to its poor? Or have reasonably available and affordable health care? Or not invade and destroy other countries on such a regular basis? All those things seem contrary to the religion as it's presented, yet when you look at the reglion's behaviour as a whole you just can't help BUT be critical. Doesn't the Bible say: 'I will know you by your works.'? Hey, what do you know, it's right!

British_Guy> I think that we avoid attacking other religions for numerous reasons.

I think, to rephrase what Mickey and Colbert_Nation said, the primary reasons are that other religions are not political forces in our societies which thus impact our lives.

For an extreme (and made up) example, it doesnt' at all matter to us if Bahaiis believe that gay people are gods... or devils. (No more so than if they believe the moon is made of cheese.)

While it is true that people feel more free to criticize their own, I don't think that's the determining factor. For example, if one criticizes Orthodox Judaism but notes that Reform and many Conservative Jewish congregations perform same-sex marriages, how can he be accused of being anti-semitic?


NYCguy74> Had phelps' group shown up it probably wouldn't have been pretty.

That's what they count on... and then those bastards sue and I believe have won large settlements.

When the Phelpsites came to Ann Arbor, we had an "every minute counts" campaign. For every moment they "protested", people made pledges to some of the local gay charities. We can't wait for them to come back and help with further fund-raising!


turk> SODOMY! ...it is coming from bible and defines a big sin.

Size queen. Now even sins are judged on their size? (:

In the Jewish tradition, the major sin in Sdom was disrespecting guests (Lot, in an effort to protect the visitors, offers his daughters to the mob - not something anyone would still consider the right thing to do today.)

Targeted I think is a pretty strong word. Furthermore, the title should be "Why is homosexuality targeted by Christianity (or any other major religion)?" That would be far more accurate.

Some gay people should learn their history!

Can anyone tell me why a good religion like Christianity is intolerable to many GLBTs but a religion of hatred like Islam isn't even spoken out against?

I haven't had time to read through the other responses. But this question encapsulates a problem religion-o-philes have..

Note how the poster neatly rails against criticism of proponents of Christianity, but allows himself the luxury of having an incredibly lazy, self-righteous stereotype of the followers of Islam.

Let's go back to the Middle Ages, shall we? Let's discuss the Knights of the Templar and the Crusades....and how followers of Islam were slaughtered (as well as Jews) in the service of the Pope (and I am formerly Catholic, by the way).

Now, the self-righteous, hating attitude is mostly exemplified by the Religious Right in this country, who are Christians.

The fact that the poster can't distinguish between proponents of radical Islam from all followers of Islam, and exempts radical Christians, often prone to violence, is illustrative.

It's also true that what he really meant to say is "Can anyone tell me why followers of a good religion like Christianity...." That's what should have been posted, because what we are reacting to is not the tenets of the various flavors of Christianity, but what the followers do...

MikePhil said, "Why ask a question if you are going to answer it yourself
Anyway, you guessed right My religion has nothing to do with me not being out. I don’t and never have participated in the church the way you say. I go to church because it is a nice atmosphere to pray, and focus on things. Also, I can't sing, as for the rest, I'm shy We are not all religious fanatics like you Americans, you know
If I were asked to leave the church because I am gay, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest, and I would still be proud to be Catholic. The church is not the building, or the priests, or just the people in one particular parish. The Catholic church is all the Catholic people. Well, us sane ones
In my parish there are two priests. One young, one old. Yes the old one may be homophobic, but although I cant be sure, I would be surprised if the young one was. I'm pretty sure he would not ask me to leave. If all the people in church tomorrow (Sunday) were told I was gay. I believe the majority would accept me. I know this is a shocker for you Americans But there is a world outside America. You should all check it out. It is really cool "

You completely missed my point. If the congregation you attend knows you're gay, you're going to quickly find out the hypocrisy of the congregation you attend. I am a former Catholic myself, but as long as the Church doesn't accept humanism, I will not accept the Church.

To those who do attend church services as an openly gay parishoner, you have found an honest congregation. With that said, they are few. I don't have problems with these churches.

In the words of Maynard from Tool:

Come down.
get off your fuck*n cross.
We need the fuck*n space to nail the next fool martyr.

Hurrah! fastprof is back!

coolarmydude said
[b]You completely missed my point. If the congregation you attend knows you're gay, you're going to quickly find out the hypocrisy of the congregation you attend. I am a former Catholic myself, but as long as the Church doesn't accept humanism, I will not accept the Church.

To those who do attend church services as an openly gay parishoner, you have found an honest congregation. With that said, they are few. I don't have problems with these churches.

With all due respect, I did not. Read what I wrote. You have this messed up view of the church, that has you convinced, that if the congregation knew I was gay, they would burn me at the stake.

"you're going to quickly find out the hypocrisy of the congregation you attend" Please tell me how you know this? I am quite confident you would be proven wrong on this.

As for you not accepting the church. Well, that's just a cop-out. You are doing the very thing you claim the church is doing. Don't you think it would be a better use of your energy to try and change the church?

To be honest with you, I think you have a bigger problem with me, not being openly gay than you have with the church.

YngHungSFSD saidIn the words of Maynard from Tool:

Come down.
get off your fuck*n cross.
We need the fuck*n space to nail the next fool martyr.

Well, that is just plain rude and insulting.

Very intelligent

Why do nerds hate football players??

coolarmydude said"God hates fags!"

The story of Sodom and Gamorrah.

Christian Coalition

"homosexuality is a sin"

same-sex marriage bans

Focus on the Family

"Homosexuality is a biological flaw."

Gay bashing/beating/murder: hate crimes



WHY HAVE YOU NOT BEEN PAYING ATTENTION? HOW CAN YOU ASK THIS QUESTION?

These have nothing to do with true Christianity, i.e. the Catholic/Orthodox Churches. I will argue each one of your statements,

1. Nothing that the Westboro Baptist Church believes in or says is founded by the bible.

2. The true evils of Sodom and Gomorrah are stated in the Books of the prophets Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah, as lack of social justice; a disregard for the poor; and general immorality, respectively.

3. Most Catholics, Christians, and even the AFL-CIO are against the CCA, and its right-wing based views.

4. Same-sex marriage bans are not against gay people or same-sex couples. I myself believe that God founded the institution of marriage to be between one man and one woman. But it is discriminatory to not allow same-sex civil unions, as an institution founded by the state to give the same benefits of marriage to gay couples.

5. I hate focus on the family because its basically just a bunch of old women from utah who don't know how to use a v-chip on their tvs.

6. Who said homosexuality is a biological flaw? Jerry Falwell? Pat Robertson? We Catholics/Orthodox don't believe in that.

7. Gay bashing/murder is evil. One of the commandments is you shall not kill. The commandment that jesus gave us is to love one another.

so if you still think that Christians are anti-gay or gay bashers, please visit any catholic/orthodox church, and read the doctrine

"They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition."

makoj59 said Some PrideFests have "Hot Jesus" contests, and I can't understand where this hatred or anguish comes from against Christianity.

Can anyone tell me why a good religion like Christianity is intolerable to many GLBTs but a religion of hatred like Islam isn't even spoken out against?

Hmm If I was catholic,, I'm not I'm jewish, but if I was and was actually a religous person, I think the idea of a Hot Jesus contest would not be good. Not good at all.
Your question speaks to two totally diff ideas.

swimbikerun said[quote][cite]makoj59 said[/cite]

Can anyone tell me why a good religion like Christianity is intolerable to many GLBTs but a religion of hatred like Islam isn't even spoken out against?

Wow! Somebody who thinks HIS religion is "good" and not a religion of "hatred"!

This is typical of the delusional poison that defines all religion.[/quote]

Actually, there are many specific and endless reasons why Islam IS a religion of hatred, this is a separate issue. If you actually knew what the Prophet Mohammed said, and what is written in the Quran and Hadith, you would know that he was a madman, rapist, pedophile, sexual deviant, murderer, slave owner, and severely narcissistic.

Notice I am not attacking Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. When there is a reason to criticize, it should be done!

Go to investigateislam.com or muhammadtube.com for more info. This topic shouldn't be extended in this forum page.

DiverScience saidAlso, you specifically are a member of an echelon Church. That is, whether you like it or not, the Pope speaks for your entire church. And he is not in the least bit friendly or tolerant towards gayness. I know that there are individual parishes that don't follow that, but as a society we don't see those. We see only your upper echelons, who've done nothing but tell us we're horrible people going to hell. That's not exactly friendly and loving.

Actually, I belong to an Eastern Rite Catholic Church, so technically the pope doesn't speak for my church in particular. And in our church, we believe in the amazing concept of repentance for sins, which can also be received in Purgatory by people who are good. In my experiences in my Church, judging people and telling them that they are horrible and going to hell is a big sin,

so my MAIN POINT is why should you hate the church/religion if some people who dont follow its teachings but represent it? Be an independent and realize that your FAITH is up to you, and you should try to see the faith itself as what you should believe! Not the few examples of hatred you see so often.

TigerTim said
Thirdly, I don't feel that trying to hold a nuanced view of Christianity is inconsistent with my atheism, or my belief that organized religion is at heart a bad thing. After all, Christians are people too and we are inconsistent if we do not extend to them the tolerance that they have sometimes failed to show us.

You raised a good point. We as a gay community should not attack Christianity, or those bigots who scapegoat us, but instead we should use Christianity to prove them wrong. Those who are wrong and still believe in their contradictions make it clear that they are not Christians and should no longer represent themselves as such.

ATLTED said
GLBT people in general have been the scape goat for the last two generations of religious folk in their efforts to control and use society in support of their own often twisted beliefs. (A recent example being the scape goat of gays as the sole reason a certain church was full of child molesters. Child molesters the church protected by the way.)

So why don't we rail againt the church?

Tom

Actually, we Eastern Catholics and Orthodox are very angered that the church has been too lenient on these pedophiles and pieces of garbage that call themselves "priests" of our church. But not all of our clergymen are molesters, and this damaging generalization is another form of hatred that shouldn't exist. Calling the church's priests "bunch of pedophiles" is not going to do anything. We must pressure and speak out against the church's leniency on the bad ones without threats and leaving the church either.

The pen is mightier than the sword, and by putting pressure on archdioceses, bishops, cardinals, and even the pope, they would listen to the voice of the church and re-read their bibles and understand that they should not protect these sinners for the sake of having more clergymen.

Colbert_Nation saidChristianity is 'targeted' because it's the established religious power structure -- a structure that blames gays for both Katrina and 9/11, and promotes politicians who oppose equal rights.

Something like 90% of all Americans identify themselves as Christian. Ok, so if this was really a 'good' religion overall, then shouldn't America be kind to its poor? Or have reasonably available and affordable health care? Or not invade and destroy other countries on such a regular basis? All those things seem contrary to the religion as it's presented, yet when you look at the reglion's behaviour as a whole you just can't help BUT be critical. Doesn't the Bible say: 'I will know you by your works.'? Hey, what do you know, it's right!

Ok...here i go again. REAL CHRISTIANS DO NOT BELIEVE IN THAT CRAP! THAT'S JUST A BUNCH OF STUPID FUNDAMENTALISTS WHO MADE UP THEIR RELIGION IN THE PAST 200 YEARS!

Health care.....hmmmm ok we got Catholic hospitals and numerous charities that help poor and uninsured people. it's not the religion's fault that it's conservative followers fuck up the health care system for their own personal gain! Christian politicians like nancy pelosi, hilary clinton, barack obama, john edwards, etc..support free health care and helping the poor because of their beliefs that we should help the less fortunate! And where in the bible does it say I will know you by your works? The entire point of Christianity is FAITH, not WORKS!

makoj59 said And where in the bible does it say I will know you by your works? The entire point of Christianity is FAITH, not WORKS!

There you have it, folks, the entire history of the Reformation.

Responses to posters in order of their postings...

Turk: You've been rebutted sufficiently on the sodomy thing. It is pretty conventional theological wisdom that it's the lack of hospitality/general abusiveness thing that was sinful.

Sundown: I essentially agree with you, and good for you breaking free of that sort of conditioning!

ATLTED/Mako: I haven't seen the Last Supper Picture you're talking about. I agree about the last two generations bit.

Kinetic: the caused/been blamed for line is blurry. Organisations have, in the name of various religions, been involved in wars, the spoils of which made said organisations fairly wealthy. Was the motivation really religion, or simple greed?

Colbert_Nation:
I don't know the statistics. What people do as a group and what people do individually are two different things, though. Many people also claim Christianity on Census forms but would be the first to admit that they are non-practising. a 90% nominal/50% practising wouldn't surprise me. and it would make it harder to adequately do something meaningful. I found the bible references for your paraphrase (I think, you might have a different version to me)

Caesarea: I like the every minute counts thing...

Wysiwyg: I think the general point of the OP is a valid question, I've asked it myself a couple of times.

fastprof: Good points.

CoolArmyDude: Big assumptions to make. The people don't always do what the pope says... they seem to operate under a bit of a don't ask what I don't observe and I won't tell you kinda of arrangement.

MikePhil: Why is it that every post seems to end with a sentence about why the person dislikes you rather than the religion? I disagree with the wording YngHung used, but you do seem to be playing the martyr.

Mako: You've made a lot of posts, I'll respond in my next missive.

Mako's postings in order:

Your response to coolArmyDude reveals that we have two Unstated Major Premise(s). True Christianity is only Found in the Catholic or Orthodox Churches. Only True Christians impact the perceptions of Christianity.
your points:
1) I'm not sure about Westboro. I haven't looked into them much.
2) Agreed.
3) I have no idea about the Acronyms which I can only assume are USA-Based.
4) A Same-sex Flippitygibbet Ban may be nonsense, but would still be against gay people or same sex couples; it's a ban specifically applied to same sex couples! "I myself believe that God founded the institution of marriage to be between one man and one woman." How many wives were considered OK in the Old Testament when Marriage was defined?
I actually agree that marriage should be left to the church, and in law it should be civil unions for all, leave "marriage" out of law altogether.
5) But they do know how to use phones and the political system, and they're vocal.
6) Again, the "True Christians" and Again, Pat Robertson/Whoever Else will quite loudly and with much media coverage tell you that you are not a True Christian since you condone homosexuality.
7) I think you might have missed the point. While bashings etc are, I agree evil. Religion is often touted by the attackers as the reason these attacks occur. "God hates fags" for example.

You really didn't define Christianity very well, since most people (myself included) would consider Christians to be the whole fabric of those who call themselves as such, possibly minus the (guesstimated)40% who call themselves Christians, but don't do anything about it at all.

--------------------------

In your response to the delusional poison post, you're actually saying there are an infinite number of specific reasons that Islam is a religion of hatred. The absolute maximum number of specific reasons would have to be the number of words in the Islamic Holy Books. And might I point out that probably many GLBT people are using the exact same rationale: "When there is a reason to criticize, it should be done!" applied to Christianity.

---------------------------

By not being specific enough in your statements, you're encouraging these misunderstandings. When you say Catholic, unless you specifically say Eastern Rite or non-Roman Catholic, there is no way to know your brand of Catholocism does not listen to the Pope. Be aware that *your church* is not what people think of when they're bashing Christianity. It's the public unequivocal statement that homosexuality is a sin. for example: in 1986 Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith in his “Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons,”

“Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil;..."

This is the same Ratzinger currently known as Pope Benedict XVI.

So that's a Catholic Denomination, (which you defined as a "True Christian") arguably considered as Most Definitely Christian by all (or close enough), making such a statement in an extremely public way.

That wasn't the only example, but it was the first one on google.

Your OP was also asking about the community. Not the individuals who are posting here today.

--------------------------------

Who are you to judge who is wrong and who is right. Maybe the fundies are correct? I mean, I don't think so, and I really hope not, but they might be. If they're not really Christians, is it reasonable to expect them not to lie about it and make trouble? It's not like there's neutral ground in Eternity.

--------------------------------

Again with the "My Guys are OK" bit, though you never specified it before this series of posts.

I'm glad they're outraged, and I hope they're successful in demolishing the leniency on paedophiles.

--------------------------------

Fruits/Works: (Text taken from the NIV @ www.biblegateway.com)
The biblical references you want regarding works are Matthew 7