Ancient Afghanistan and Homosexuality..

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 08, 2011 6:52 PM GMT
    Yes, it was practiced icon_smile.gif

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/dancingboys/
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 08, 2011 6:59 PM GMT
    Oh Boy! (sigh) I couldn't watch it...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 08, 2011 7:00 PM GMT
    Oh, the bacha bazi? They learned it from the Greeks icon_razz.gif A rather twisted form of entertainment if you ask me. I feel sorry for the poor boys whose parents often give their sons away to strange men for money. Although it's interesting to see how much training and practice goes into these boys entertaining groups of men. It's also crazy how the men sometimes fight over certain boys icon_rolleyes.gif Their careers are over no sooner than they reach adulthood, only to be dumped and forgotten.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 08, 2011 7:08 PM GMT
    Well didn't yall read Kite Runner?

    I know its fiction, but there's definitely a gay underground culture in Afghanistan.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 08, 2011 7:08 PM GMT
    carolinablue saidWell didn't yall read Kite Runner?

    I know its fiction, but there's definitely a gay underground culture in Afghanistan.


    Funny enough this was required reading for me to get into my College. I didnt do it and they didnt care...LOL!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 08, 2011 7:14 PM GMT
    I don't want to call it gay culture if wealthy men are buying underage boys for entertainment. Its is perverted, just like straight men buying underage girls.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 08, 2011 7:17 PM GMT
    There was also acceptance, and indeed, enhanced respect for homosexuality in ancient African and Native American indigenous groupings, which often saw such individuals as being a "two spirit" person, and worthy of some more socially-esteemed positions. Alas, the white man showed up and told them their ways were Satanic and cleansed them of their cultures. Now, 500 years later, white men, sitting comfortably in a middle class existence in an industrialized Western nation look upon the people of Africa and elsewhere as being "barbaric" and "backwards" for their views on homosexuality, views which we inculcated in them as part of our "civilizing" mission, and for which we now denounce them as "uncivilized."

    Hmmm.... history can be troubling for troubled realities.
  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    Dec 08, 2011 7:18 PM GMT
    GreenHopper saidYes, it was practiced icon_smile.gif

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/dancingboys/



    It still is, that's why Thursdays in Afghanistan are called "Man-Love Thursdays."
    Ordinarily in Arab/Muslim culture, two men holding hands indicated that they were best friends, but in Afghanistan, it's really more than that icon_wink.gif . You'll see the prevalence of men holding hands more so on Thursday than any other given day of the week. Thursdays are like their Friday or Saturday nights.
    Afghans believe that the physical sex between men, even though it's discretely done, doesn't constitute homosexuality. Homosexuality occurs in Afghan thinking when someone develops intimate feelings for another man.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 08, 2011 7:23 PM GMT
    Yeah, this practice is alive and well in the underground of Afghanistan, Kyrgyzstan, Iran, and Uzbekistan. In fact it's only increased since the breakup of the USSR and the rise of troubles in Afghanistan.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 08, 2011 9:12 PM GMT
    Not surprising at all to be honest. Men with men has been done in all cultures since man has been around. Only thing interesting about it, is how it was done. You had men among the fighting/soldier/warrior class, who had a very different philosophy and view of intimacy between two men. It was seen as the ideal way of how men were to be together, and a more noble way. The boys who were 15/16 years old, would chose the older male who was 20-25, and only if the older male wasn't already involved; so fidelity was also a huge huge thing- and sex wasn't the driving force. Though there was love and intimacy, there was no penetration between them; since it was not considered "equal" as it was something done only to women, and people of low status, or out of humiliation purposes.

    In some cultures they'd eat their enemies, and the humiliation behind that; would be turning your enemy into poo lol. In some the last man on the losing side would be raped by everyone on the winning side, with the humiliation behind that- him having his masculinity taken away, along with his spirit, and pride as a warrior and man- since he was now submitting to other men in all ways.

    Then you had the average citizens like artist, and intellectuals, who had another view; which was also seen as perverted and weak, among the other side. Especially in cultures like the Vikings.

    This little documentary is a great example of the social side of it. Families often quite poor, or afraid of whoever it is in power. Giving up their sons to men who enjoy penetrating young males. The men who do this to the boys, are seen as "very manly" since they have both male and female submitting to them. And in some societies that did this thing, these boys would be ridiculed by higher ups, and warrior/soldier class in society.

    I used to read about this stuff when I was younger, I was all into everything about ancient cultures/society icon_smile.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 08, 2011 9:24 PM GMT
    No no no, it's only a western practice!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 09, 2011 2:10 AM GMT
    This particular example - since it's young kids, is totally fucked up. . .

    But other than that: most cultures throughout history and many present day do have a more open or fluid view on sexuality. It seems that the US has more of a 'puritanical' view compared to other cultures. IMO
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 09, 2011 2:16 AM GMT
    Child trading for sexual favors - both male and female - still happens.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 09, 2011 2:39 AM GMT
    the ancient Greeks were notorius pederasts...a youth was expected to be a lover for an older man...catamite shit...but most of those older men were not interested in other older men...only youths..otherwise,the older guys were hetero...there is even some suggestion that the historical Jesus may have been a pederast....The Secret Gospel of Mark contains a tale about a handsome youth..whom Jesus resureccted from the dead...and the youth spend many nights with Jesus..the Secret Gospel was banned,due to it's homoerotic theme.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 09, 2011 2:52 AM GMT
    Those damn perverted Greeks. And yet to this day we continue to admire nearly everything they contributed to Western civilization icon_rolleyes.gif

    Huzzah for Greek lovin'!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 09, 2011 3:00 AM GMT
    strangely though...most Greek men practiced frottage with the youths.{unless they were slave boys} as anal penetration was considered to be degrading to the young men...Heracles..[Hercules]..even though he was quite a lady's man..was supposed to have had a young male "companion". even some Romans got in on the act. the Roman Emporer Hadrian had a youth named Antinious..whom he had sex with..and actually loved him..
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 09, 2011 3:04 AM GMT
    eddie13 saidthe ancient Greeks were notorius pederasts...a youth was expected to be a lover for an older man...catamite shit...but most of those older men were not interested in other older men...only youths..otherwise,the older guys were hetero...there is even some suggestion that the historical Jesus may have been a pederast....The Secret Gospel of Mark contains a tale about a handsome youth..whom Jesus resureccted from the dead...and the youth spend many nights with Jesus..the Secret Gospel was banned,due to it's homoerotic theme.


    I came across this topic when reading an amazon.com page on the book "Jesus, the Magician" by Morton Smith. I think I want to read this book even though the document Morton Smith found may not be authentic. I'm thinking there is more in his book about Jesus and Magic other than what was in the Secret Gospel of Mark.

    I wonder how homosexuality was used in magic and sorcery.

    # # #

    A long time ago I came across the Secret Gospel of Mark.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 09, 2011 4:29 AM GMT
    pocketnico saidOh, the bacha bazi? They learned it from the Greeks icon_razz.gif A rather twisted form of entertainment if you ask me. I feel sorry for the poor boys whose parents often give their sons away to strange men for money. Although it's interesting to see how much training and practice goes into these boys entertaining groups of men. It's also crazy how the men sometimes fight over certain boys icon_rolleyes.gif Their careers are over no sooner than they reach adulthood, only to be dumped and forgotten.


    Almost the inverse of the scene today.

    Once a guy hits 30 - or so the conventional wisdom goes... he's as good as invisible.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 09, 2011 4:37 AM GMT
    AlphaTrigger said
    pocketnico saidOh, the bacha bazi? They learned it from the Greeks icon_razz.gif A rather twisted form of entertainment if you ask me. I feel sorry for the poor boys whose parents often give their sons away to strange men for money. Although it's interesting to see how much training and practice goes into these boys entertaining groups of men. It's also crazy how the men sometimes fight over certain boys icon_rolleyes.gif Their careers are over no sooner than they reach adulthood, only to be dumped and forgotten.


    Almost the inverse of the scene today.

    Once a guy hits 30 - or so the conventional wisdom goes... he's as good as invisible.


    Unless you lie about your age, which many seem to do, of course icon_wink.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 09, 2011 7:20 AM GMT
    um of course it was... more disturbingly they use to rape young boys and make them Eunichs.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 09, 2011 7:22 AM GMT
    MeOhMy saidThere was also acceptance, and indeed, enhanced respect for homosexuality in ancient African and Native American indigenous groupings, which often saw such individuals as being a "two spirit" person, and worthy of some more socially-esteemed positions. Alas, the white man showed up and told them their ways were Satanic and cleansed them of their cultures. Now, 500 years later, white men, sitting comfortably in a middle class existence in an industrialized Western nation look upon the people of Africa and elsewhere as being "barbaric" and "backwards" for their views on homosexuality, views which we inculcated in them as part of our "civilizing" mission, and for which we now denounce them as "uncivilized."

    Hmmm.... history can be troubling for troubled realities.


    Interesting point. I remember hearing about that in Anthropology 203.
  • coastguy90814

    Posts: 661

    Dec 09, 2011 7:26 AM GMT
    This doesn't sound like homosexuality, with all due respect mister ;) From what I read it sounds more like pedophilia and abuse of power. Enlighten me?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 09, 2011 10:01 AM GMT
    carolinablue saidWell didn't yall read Kite Runner?

    I know its fiction, but there's definitely a gay underground culture in Afghanistan.


    LOL, I'm currently reading the Kite Runner for my English course at college. I'm glad you brought that up.
  • MikemikeMike

    Posts: 6932

    Dec 09, 2011 10:20 AM GMT
    They do it in Turkey as well. I had a waiter who once told me this was done with him and his brother. He said he didn't mind it because he knew he was gay when he was a boy, but unfortunately his brother wasn't and he killed himself by age 15. Very sad.
  • Rowing_Ant

    Posts: 1504

    Dec 09, 2011 11:37 AM GMT
    pocketnico saidOh, the bacha bazi? They learned it from the Greeks icon_razz.gif A rather twisted form of entertainment if you ask me. I feel sorry for the poor boys whose parents often give their sons away to strange men for money. Although it's interesting to see how much training and practice goes into these boys entertaining groups of men. It's also crazy how the men sometimes fight over certain boys icon_rolleyes.gif Their careers are over no sooner than they reach adulthood, only to be dumped and forgotten.


    I thought the Bachi Baziks/Bazouks were Mercenaries who fought for the Sultan of Turkey?

    And from which bit of Greece exactly and how did the people in Afghanistan learn about homosexuality? The Spartans called the Athenians boy-lovers and the Athenians returned the compliment as did the Thebans. There was a lot of slander banterd around between the various cities, each accusing the other of being effeminate and liking the boy sex. The evidenec that does exist is in some cases explicit (urns and art work) but a lot of it is.....not so implicit. The Spartans didnt indulge in anal sex but inter-femoral...

    And the whole "boy sex" thing, which conjours up images of peadophilia is about the age of maturity in ancient Greece...you have boys, cadets/ striplings and men
    Boys = aged 12-15 (i.e. when puberty kicks in)
    Cadets = 15 to 18 or in some cities 21
    Young Men = over 18 or 21 to 29
    Seniors = 30- 40
    Edler = 40+

    A man aged 21-25 was t hought to be in the prime of his life and the most beautiful object in creation. In most translations of greek writing "cadet" or "Stripling" is usually translated as"Boy" when they were not!! (is this modern day society's Christian anti-Greek/Roman bias?) In most instances "boy sex" was between a Cadet (15-1icon_cool.gif and a Man (usually 18-25). In Roman law it was illegal for a "man" to enter where the striplings were training in the gymnasium.

    When we think about the "300 Spartans" they were in fact a 300 mounted cavalrymen (knights as they are referred to) who were from Thebes, the "sacred battalion" of lovers.

    All cultures have had differant responses to same-sex relationships. Looking back on history we in our 21st cenutry position have no, absolutely no right, to judge others based on our morals.