Romans and Greeks: homosexuals

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 11, 2011 4:10 AM GMT
    is it true that in Roman and Greek cultures, homosexuality was fully accepted and never looked at differently?

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    Dec 11, 2011 7:21 AM GMT
    no, it's not true. the Hellenistic world had a different understanding of sexual acts between men than we do currently in the post-industrial world.

    ppl attempt 2 project our viewpoints back on previous cultures/societies 2 fit our personal/political agendas. this is, of course, a total fail.

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    Dec 11, 2011 7:45 AM GMT
    AMoonHawk saidUnless you were there ... you ain't got no game icon_rolleyes.gif


    In regard of male homosexuality such documents depict a world in which relationships with women and relationships with youths were the essential foundation of a normal man's love life. Same-sex relationships were a social institution variously constructed over time and from one city to another. The formal practice, an erotic yet often restrained relationship between a free adult male and a free adolescent, was valued for its pedagogic benefits and as a means of population control, though occasionally blamed for causing disorder.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality

    the above clearly indicates that these men were not "true" homosexuals. (gold card carrying gays? hahaha)


    cf
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome
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    Dec 11, 2011 7:53 AM GMT
    Currently reading, s'ok:

    412651-L.jpg
  • Brick_n_Lace

    Posts: 185

    Dec 11, 2011 7:56 AM GMT
    Gay wasnt a sexual identity itself like we see it. Men having sex was either a mentor and student being imparted with knowledge, virtue and strength by way of a short term union until reaching adulthood. Or there was a sex culture among warriors which they imparted strength in one another etc. I remember reading that you were expected to get married to a woman after boyhood was over though indescretions were still common without HUGE stigmas. It was largely seen as a pleasure of youth. Its been so long but that was my understanding...
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    Dec 11, 2011 7:56 AM GMT
    AMoonHawk saidPerhaps you didn't realize that wikipedia entries are created by anyone how wants to write to it. You don't have to necessarily be a scholar or anything to create an entry in wikipedia


    these r the footnotes and references, looks pretty academic 2 me. js

    edit: there r more than 208 notes, and 100 references, couldn't post them all


    Notes

    1.^ a b c d e f "Sexual Orientation, Homosexuality,and Bisexuality", APAHelpCenter.org, retrieved 2010-03-30
    2.^ a b c d e f g h i "Case No. S147999 in the Supreme Court of the State of California, In re Marriage Cases Judicial Council Coordination Proceeding No. 4365(...) - APA California Amicus Brief — As Filed" (PDF). Retrieved 2010-12-21.
    3.^ Frankowski BL; American Academy of Pediatrics Committee on Adolescence (June 2004). "Sexual orientation and adolescents". Pediatrics 113 (6): 1827–32. doi:10.1542/peds.113.6.1827. PMID 15173519.
    4.^ Robinson, B. A. (2010). "Divergent beliefs about the nature of homosexuality". Religious Tolerance.org. Retrieved September 12, 2011.
    5.^ a b c American Psychological Association: Resolution on Appropriate Affirmative Responses to Sexual Orientation Distress and Change Efforts
    6.^ a b LeVay, Simon (1996). Queer Science: The Use and Abuse of Research into Homosexuality. Cambridge: The MIT Press ISBN 0-262-12199-9
    7.^ Investigators ACSF (1992). "AIDS and sexual behaviour in France". Nature 360 (6403): 407–409. doi:10.1038/360407a0. PMID 1448162.
    8.^ a b Billy JO, Tanfer K, Grady WR, Klepinger DH (1993). "The sexual behavior of men in the United States". Family Planning Perspectives 25 (2): 52–60. doi:10.2307/2136206. JSTOR 2136206. PMID 8491287.
    9.^ a b Binson, Diane; Michaels, Stuart; Stall, Ron; Coates, Thomas J.; Gagnon, John H.; Catania, Joseph A. (1995). "Prevalence and Social Distribution of Men Who Have Sex with Men: United States and Its Urban Centers". The Journal of Sex Research 32 (3): 245–54. doi:10.1080/00224499509551795. JSTOR 3812794.
    10.^ Bogaert AF (September 2004). "The prevalence of male homosexuality: the effect of fraternal birth order and variations in family size". Journal of Theoretical Biology 230 (1): 33–7. doi:10.1016/j.jtbi.2004.04.035. PMID 15275997. Bogaert argues that: "The prevalence of male homosexuality is debated. One widely reported early estimate was 10% (e.g., Marmor, 1980; Voeller, 1990). Some recent data provided support for this estimate (Bagley and Tremblay, 199icon_cool.gif, but most recent large national samples suggest that the prevalence of male homosexuality in modern western societies, including the United States, is lower than this early estimate (e.g., 1–2% in Billy et al., 1993; 2–3% in Laumann et al., 1994; 6% in Sell et al., 1995; 1–3% in Wellings et al., 1994). It is of note, however, that homosexuality is defined in different ways in these studies. For example, some use same-sex behavior and not same-sex attraction as the operational definition of homosexuality (e.g., Billy et al., 1993); many sex researchers (e.g., Bailey et al., 2000; Bogaert, 2003; Money, 1988; Zucker and Bradley, 1995) now emphasize attraction over overt behavior in conceptualizing sexual orientation." (p. 33) Also: "...the prevalence of male homosexuality (in particular, same-sex attraction) varies over time and across societies (and hence is a "moving target") in part because of two effects: (1) variations in fertility rate or family size; and (2) the fraternal birth order effect. Thus, even if accurately measured in one country at one time, the rate of male homosexuality is subject to change and is not generalizable over time or across societies." (p. 33)
    11.^ Fay RE, Turner CF, Klassen AD, Gagnon JH (January 1989). "Prevalence and patterns of same-gender sexual contact among men". Science 243 (4889): 338–48. doi:10.1126/science.2911744. PMID 2911744.
    12.^ a b Johnson AM, Wadsworth J, Wellings K, Bradshaw S, Field J (December 1992). "Sexual lifestyles and HIV risk". Nature 360 (6403): 410–2. doi:10.1038/360410a0. PMID 1448163.
    13.^ a b Laumann, E. O., Gagnon, J. H., Michael, R. T., & Michaels, S. (1994). The social organization of sexuality: Sexual practices in the United States. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.[page needed]
    14.^ Sell RL, Wells JA, Wypij D (June 1995). "The prevalence of homosexual behavior and attraction in the United States, the United Kingdom and France: results of national population-based samples". Archives of Sexual Behavior 24 (3): 235–48. doi:10.1007/BF01541598. PMID 7611844.
    15.^ a b Wellings, K., Field, J., Johnson, A., & Wadsworth, J. (1994). Sexual behavior in Britain: The national survey of sexual attitudes and lifestyles. London, UK: Penguin Books.[page needed]
    16.^ a b c AVJonathan Tisdall . "Norway world leader in casual sex, Aftenposten". Aftenposten.no. Retrieved 2010-08-24.
    17.^ a b c "Sex uncovered poll: Homosexuality". London: Guardian. 2008-10-26. Retrieved 2010-08-24.
    18.^ a b c McConaghy et al., 2006
    19.^ Science Daily: Same-Sex Behavior Seen In Nearly All Animals
    20.^ a b c (Bagemihl 1999)
    21.^ 1,500 animal species practice homosexuality. The Medical News, 23 October 2006
    22.^ Sommer, Volker & Paul L. Vasey (2006), Homosexual Behaviour in Animals, An Evolutionary Perspective. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge. ISBN 0521864461
    23.^ a b Harrold, Max (February 16, 1999). "Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity". The Advocate, reprinted in Highbeam Encyclopedia. Retrieved 2007-09-10.
    24.^ Census statistics show quarter of California same-sex couples raising kids
    25.^ More Same-Sex Couples in Colorado, Census Shows
    26.^ Region Saw Increase In Same-Sex Households
    27.^ Census 2010: One Quarter of Gay Couples Raising Children
    28.^ Minnesota Sees 50% Rise in Number of Gay Couples
    29.^ Censusicon_biggrin.gifutchess, Ulster Gay Households Increase
    30.^ Same Sex Couples' Numbers Soar In N.Y, 2010 Census Finds
    31.^ 2010 Census indicates increase among same-sex homeowners in Oklahoma
    32.^ Spike In Number of City's Same-Sex Couples
    33.^ American Psychiatric Association Sexual Orientation
    34.^ "Etymology of Homosexuality", University of Waterloo, retrieved 2007-09-07
    35.^ Marguerite Johnson, Terry Ryan: Sexuality in Greek and Roman society and literature: a sourcebook p.4
    36.^ "Lesbian | Define Lesbian at Dictionary.com". Dictionary.reference.com. Retrieved 2010-08-24.
    37.^ a b Media Reference Guide (citing AP, NY Times, Washington Post style guides), GLAAD. Retrieved 2007-05-10.
    38.^ "Kertbeny Coins "Homosexual"", GayHistory.com, retrieved 2007-09-07[dead link]
    39.^ Feray Jean-Claude, Herzer Manfred (1990). "Homosexual Studies and Politics in the 19th Century: Karl Maria Kertbeny". Journal of Homosexuality 19: 1.
    40.^ a b c "Biography: Karl Maria Kertbeny", GayHistory.com, retrieved 2007-09-07[dead link]
    41.^ "Psychopathia Sexualis", Kino.com, retrieved 2007-09-07
    42.^ "The Coming Out Continuum", Human Rights Campaign, archived from the original on 2007-11-02, retrieved 2007-05-04
    43.^ Rosario, M., Schrimshaw, E., Hunter, J., & Braun, L. (2006, February). Sexual identity development among lesbian, gay, and bisexual youths: Consistency and change over time. Journal of Sex Research, 43(1), 46–58. Retrieved April 4, 2009, from PsycINFO database.
    44.^ Neumann, Caryn E (2004), "Outing", glbtq.com
    45.^ Maggio, Rosalie (1991), The Dictionary of Bias-Free Usage: A Guide to Nondiscriminatory Language, Oryx Press, p. 208, ISBN 0897746538
    46.^ Tatchell, Peter (April 23, 2007), "Outing hypocrites is justified", The New Statesman, retrieved 2007-05-04
    47.^ Minton, H. L. (1986). Femininity in men and masculinity in women: American psychiatry and psychology portray homosexuality in the 1930s, Journ
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    Dec 11, 2011 7:59 AM GMT
    Brick_n_Lace saidGay wasnt a sexual identity itself like we see it. Men having sex was either a mentor and student being imparted with knowledge, virtue and strength by way of a short term union until reaching adulthood. Or there was a sex culture among warriors which they imparted strength in one another etc. I remember reading that you were expected to get married to a woman after boyhood was over though indescretions were still common without HUGE stigmas. Its been so long but that was my understanding...


    Agreed. Speaking of Ancient Greece, there are, indeed, a great many pictures on vases that show how an older lover, the erastes, courts a boy, the eromenos. They appear not to be of the same age: the erastes has a beard and plays an active role, whereas the adolescent has no beard and remains passive. He will never take an initiative, looks shy, and is believed not to have enjoyed the sexual union. It is assumed that as soon as the adolescent had a beard, the love affair had to be finished. He had to find an eromenos of his own.

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    Dec 11, 2011 8:25 AM GMT
    AMoonHawk saidIt sounds more like you are making arguments for pedafilia. Did you look at some of those titles of reference? What were the authors intentions. ("Sexual orientation and adolescents". ) Where in thoses titles are there any references to art, or history or any ancient writings. It is a fact that some gladitors had a bit of a prostitution side job with both men and women. We won't resolve anything here, but I'm sure there are much better writings then wikapedia that do a much better job.


    prob true, yet the OP's question is: is it true that in Roman and Greek cultures, homosexuality was fully accepted and never looked at differently?

    i think the answer is "no."
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    Dec 11, 2011 5:08 PM GMT
    ALthough men often enjoyed being with another man, they viewed "bottoms" to be on a low level like a woman, and no man dared to stoop that low. That is why mostly boys, slaves, and prostitutes were always the bottom. If you were a bottom as an adult there were derogatory slang words used against you..

    It's interesting to note that the Romans and Greeks didn't suck dick... not even the wives did. It was viewed as extremely degrading and they would usually force face fuck a PoW or criminal, etc.
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    Dec 11, 2011 5:11 PM GMT
    Augustine92 saidthey would usually force face fuck a PoW or criminal, etc.


    {Standing back from the stampede of guys on RJ volunteering to be a POW}
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    Dec 11, 2011 5:13 PM GMT
    tailgater_3 saidppl attempt 2 project our viewpoints back on previous cultures/societies 2 fit our personal/political agendas. this is, of course, a total fail.



    +1!!
  • disasterpiece

    Posts: 2991

    Dec 11, 2011 5:15 PM GMT
    I had a class on Religion and Sexuality during my History degree, and tailgater's definition seems pretty accurate.

    It was, indeed, some sort of pedagogic pedofilia, to vulgarize to the max icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Dec 11, 2011 5:21 PM GMT
    No, not as you guys probably think. Because a society that engages in anal sex without any knowledge of bacteria precautions or antibiotics would be devastated by disease like the plague if they engaged in anal, as anal has the highest rate of sti of all sexual acts combined (source: CDC).

    Besides in fertility cults and prostitution rings, anal wasn't a wide spread consensual practice, usually reserved for humiliating an enemy or just for simple rape.

    That's not to say that guys didn't get together though. It's just that the same sex love paradigm then was vastly different from the one that exists now.