Simply be you

  • tautomer

    Posts: 1010

    Dec 17, 2011 11:22 PM GMT
    I'm sorry that I made this thread. I don't want to be seen as bad, false, wrong, a charlatan, having an agenda, or any sort of negative thing, as I had no intention of causing any sort of anger, or frustration in anyone else.

    I'll simply say this: Just be yourself, be the best you can be, and don't try to fit to any kind of external standard.
  • Trepeat

    Posts: 546

    Dec 18, 2011 12:22 AM GMT
    I blame porn. icon_wink.gif
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    Dec 18, 2011 12:30 AM GMT
    I think what you say makes a lot of sense. I can't psychoanalyze other guys but I think a lot of the "straight-acting = good, gay-acting = bad" dichotomy comes from sexism which is still deep-rooted in our culture.

    For myself I get itchy around people who draw attention to themselves regardless of what mannerisms they use to do it. An outrageously flamboyant fem guy would be off-putting to me and so would a hypermasculine "Situation" type guy that has to be the focus of everybody in the room.

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    Dec 18, 2011 12:42 AM GMT
    This is funny to me because I experience (sometimes) the opposite.

    When a guy is fem or "stereotypically gay" he will be praised for it, and he should be.

    But when a guy is masc or is "stereotypically straight" people will assume or say, he's in the closet, straight acting, etc... and is vilified for it because he isn't sticking out like a stereotypical gay guy.

    This double standard blows my mind sometimes. Oh the stories I could tell icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Dec 18, 2011 12:48 AM GMT
    Oohh! Great question, but I am afraid there is no simple answer. I think, after much thinking, the reason is a composite of these factors:

    1. We try to hide when we are young (some when they are older); inability to hide puts us at a disadvantage, so the ability and skill is a plus
    2. In our society, it is more desirable to be a man than a woman; that's horsecrap, but it makes the more effeminate men less desirable than the more masculine
    3. The vast majority of gay men seems to want a man that is more of a man than we are ourselves; I suppose that says a lot about us and what kind of sexual life we want; the end result, though, is that being less manly makes you less desirable in many eyes
    4. Tying the first three together, we feel discomfort with being less masculine than we want to be, and we are afraid that associating with men that are even less masculine than we are will make us seem even more effeminate.

    I have personally experienced all of the above to a certain degree, especially when I was very young. There are probably more factors, but these 4 are the ones I encountered most frequently.

    Paradoxically, it was through unleashing the woman inside me that I learned to give a flying fuck about what people thought, which ended up making me more masculine in the end.
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    Dec 18, 2011 12:51 AM GMT
    str8 actin' masc bro dude just lookin' to chillax with other brahs no homo buderooski!
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    Dec 18, 2011 1:00 AM GMT
    I think what the Machine said pretty much covers it.

    Its basically down to part sexual narcissism, part erotic capital.

    Gay men do not look for 'opposites' the way heterosexuals do. We try to become the very thing that we are attracted to, in order to attract it.

    That's why men into muscles and worship of muscle, get very big themselves, that's why men into bears grow beards and wear a lot of flannel.

    Like attracts like in the gay world, and if you want manly you have to be it.

    Blonde may go for Latin and tall my go for short, rich may go for poor and liberal may go for square but butch will never go for camp. That is a one way unrequited love affair.

    We all want a real man, but unlike women with straight men, being dainty and delicate and feminine isn't going to impress those butch gay ones.

    Its a different dynamic.
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    Dec 18, 2011 1:03 AM GMT
    Tautomer, I think you make a valid point. personally, I was somewhat feminine as a boy. i grew up in a household that wouldn't tolerate it (all boys for siblings and a verbally abusive father). more or less, the feminine side of me was expunged before it even had a chance to fully develop. i also grew up catholic and tried to pray the gay away for many many years. presently, i'm comfortable being masculine. whether, this comfort stems from fear of exploring my feminine ways or from my true identity, I don't know. but, i'm very comfortable in my skin. even though, i love sports, most of my friends are straight guys, and i cringe at the site of myself in a feminine stance or split second of high pitched voice, i'm interested to see what exploring my feminine side would do for my psyche.
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    Dec 18, 2011 1:07 AM GMT
    Tfell83 saidI think what the Machine said pretty much covers it.

    Its basically down to part sexual narcissism, part erotic capital.

    Gay men do not look for 'opposites' the way heterosexuals do. We try to become the very thing that we are attracted to, in order to attract it.

    That's why men into muscles and worship of muscle, get very big themselves, that's why men into bears grow beards and wear a lot of flannel.

    Like attracts like in the gay world, and if you want manly you have to be it.

    Blonde may go for Latin and tall my go for short, rich may go for poor and liberal may go for square but butch will never go for camp. That is a one way unrequited love affair.

    We all want a real man, but unlike women with straight men, being dainty and delicate and feminine isn't going to impress those butch gay ones.

    Its a different dynamic.


    I'm gonna call bullshit on some of that.

    There is a whole bunch of drag queen and younger for older left out of that formula, unless those are being attributed to "fetishes" and if that's the case, where opposites attracting = fetish, then that just reeks of bull caca.
  • neosyllogy

    Posts: 1714

    Dec 18, 2011 1:07 AM GMT
    Keep the boys at bay.
    It's nice to go somewhere without everyone trying to get in your pants.
    icon_biggrin.gif
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    Dec 18, 2011 1:10 AM GMT
    Claystation saidThis is funny to me because I experience (sometimes) the opposite.

    When a guy is fem or "stereotypically gay" he will be praised for it, and he should be.

    But when a guy is masc or is "stereotypically straight" people will assume or say, he's in the closet, straight acting, etc... and is vilified for it because he isn't sticking out like a stereotypical gay guy.

    This double standard blows my mind sometimes. Oh the stories I could tell icon_rolleyes.gif



    This reminds me of a couple guys at work that found out I was gay. One of them called me one night after work and told me that they knew, and that I had nothing to worry about that they were 100% cool with it and that NOW I could start acting myself and quit trying to hide it.

    I tried to explain to him that nothing was going to change with me now that they know about me... Like Im not going to start wearing skinnier jeans, or Im not going to start speaking with a lisp. He somehow thought that the way I acted was a huge cover up and that now that they knew I was gay then I was going to start dressing and acting that way. wtf
  • tautomer

    Posts: 1010

    Dec 18, 2011 1:14 AM GMT
    Claystation saidThis is funny to me because I experience (sometimes) the opposite.

    When a guy is fem or "stereotypically gay" he will be praised for it, and he should be.

    But when a guy is masc or is "stereotypically straight" people will assume or say, he's in the closet, straight acting, etc... and is vilified for it because he isn't sticking out like a stereotypical gay guy.

    This double standard blows my mind sometimes. Oh the stories I could tell icon_rolleyes.gif


    Ah that's another matter entirely, and largely has completely different psychological roots to it from this one. I didn't include it because it's simply not encountered on this website. I can sum up the reason behind that sort of mentality a lot faster (because it's intrinsically a lot less complex). It's a combination of complete self-justification for all actions done by the self, inflating the external ego as much as possible, and feeling that one is superior to everyone else around them. That combination is impenetrable to anyone not like them, and those like them don't have the desire or capacity to challenge it.
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    Dec 18, 2011 1:14 AM GMT
    Well I think I could pretty confidently call being into drag queens a fetish - wouldn't you? And in my experience Drag queens get most of their attention from straight men anyway, further proving my point

    . And I left out young for olld because it is not relevant in a discussion about masculinity. I already said that many other opposite features attract, innocence to cynicism, shyness to confidence etc.

    The fact that opposite personalities/ages can attract and do is a silly moot point to make when I have already covered it.

    He was initially discussing the reasons for men become defensive about the obviousness of their homosexuality. I just don't believe a simplistic explanation of 'oh they must harbour self hatred about themselves' iis a good enough one.

    It patently ignores the different dynamic in homosexuality of likeness IN TERMS OF GENDER CONFORMITY attracting like.

    Just going on my 28 years of experience in life, and I've seen a fair bit.
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    Dec 18, 2011 1:15 AM GMT
    Claystation said
    Tfell83 saidI think what the Machine said pretty much covers it.

    Its basically down to part sexual narcissism, part erotic capital.

    Gay men do not look for 'opposites' the way heterosexuals do. We try to become the very thing that we are attracted to, in order to attract it.

    That's why men into muscles and worship of muscle, get very big themselves, that's why men into bears grow beards and wear a lot of flannel.

    Like attracts like in the gay world, and if you want manly you have to be it.

    Blonde may go for Latin and tall my go for short, rich may go for poor and liberal may go for square but butch will never go for camp. That is a one way unrequited love affair.

    We all want a real man, but unlike women with straight men, being dainty and delicate and feminine isn't going to impress those butch gay ones.

    Its a different dynamic.


    I'm gonna call bullshit on some of that.

    There is a whole bunch of drag queen and younger for older left out of that formula, unless those are being attributed to "fetishes" and if that's the case, where opposites attracting = fetish, then that just reeks of bull caca.


    I'd call bullshit on most of it. In fact, nearly all the femme guys that I know - myself included - are in long term relationships and never had a problem getting dates, usually with butcher guys. Also, there is far more variation than this theory gives credit to, and there plenty of "masculine" guys who are more a caricature of masculinity than femmes are of femininity.

    Beyond what comes or feels natural to you, and not besmirching being in shape or athletic, if you feel you have to make yourself into the very thing you desire, why not just fuck a mirror?
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    Dec 18, 2011 1:19 AM GMT
    tautomer4314 said

    Ah that's another matter entirely, and largely has completely different psychological roots to it from this one. I didn't include it because it's simply not encountered on this website. I can sum up the reason behind that sort of mentality a lot faster (because it's intrinsically a lot less complex). It's a combination of complete self-justification for all actions done by the self, inflating the external ego as much as possible, and feeling that one is superior to everyone else around them. That combination is impenetrable to anyone not like them, and those like them don't have the desire or capacity to challenge it.


    If you are basing all your "data" on this website alone then whatever conclusion you come to is limited only to this website.
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    Dec 18, 2011 1:22 AM GMT
    Look, I'm not dismissing anyone else's experience, if what you say is what you've observed then fine. Yes I have seen many femme guys get dates and happy relationships with men who are butcher then themselves

    But to me it seems very relative. Their partners may be butcher than themselves but compared to the rest of mankind? There is a scale to masculinity, and the caricatures which are hardly authentic are irrelevant anyway. I have known some very masculine men who took a long time to come out as gay because of that reason, and a common feauture with these men is a contempt, or aversion to effeminate men.

    Shoot me down but just offering my observations. All homosexuality is a subconscious form of narcissism in some way, just like a lot of heterosexual relationships can be replicas of parent relationships (much more effectively)

    But whatever, if you think I'm wrong OK.
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    Dec 18, 2011 1:24 AM GMT
    People from my university tell me that I seems ambiguous. They don't look at me as straight neither as gay or bisexual. ¿Am I asexual and I didn't realize it yet?

    I mean, I have some (¿a lot?) of feminine features -friends tell me that I look the same as my mom =/icon_confused.gif-... That's nothing I can do to fix it, is just part of my phenotype. In addition, I can't act like a super macho talking about boobs, act agressive/rude and so on (it doesn't mean that I act like a screaming pussy), also my music and other "tastes" make people think that I'm not straight (stereotypes, but I fit with some of those stereotypes) but they don't know how to catalogue me because I never talk about sex, girlfriends or boyfriends and I don't seems average (in other words, I seems "anormal").

    I just think: let it be. If people think that I'm gay, ok, if not, ok. If they ask me, I don't answer and just say that is not their problem at least they want to fuck with me and need to know it. If my parents never ask about my sexuality, why I need to tell to others? So, I don't care if I'm acting straight or not.

    P.S: sorry if I spelled o wrote something wrong. I'm not good at English. Spanish is my first language.
  • tautomer

    Posts: 1010

    Dec 18, 2011 1:24 AM GMT
    Claystation said
    tautomer4314 said

    Ah that's another matter entirely, and largely has completely different psychological roots to it from this one. I didn't include it because it's simply not encountered on this website. I can sum up the reason behind that sort of mentality a lot faster (because it's intrinsically a lot less complex). It's a combination of complete self-justification for all actions done by the self, inflating the external ego as much as possible, and feeling that one is superior to everyone else around them. That combination is impenetrable to anyone not like them, and those like them don't have the desire or capacity to challenge it.


    If you are basing all your "data" on this website alone then whatever conclusion you come to is limited only to this website.


    No I am not basing all of my information on just this website. I'm basing it off of experience out in the real world as well. The reason I wrote it is I felt it would be relevent to a good chunk of people here.

    I could have written my initial post in much more detail or longer. The problem with that though is it would be much longer then most would want to read and this it wouldn't be seen or discussed by many, so I had to cut it down.


    Keep in mind, human behavior is exceedingly complex. There is no way you can describe everyone based off an observed trend. Only some will fit into it.
  • Havenjock80

    Posts: 428

    Dec 18, 2011 1:26 AM GMT
    People stuck on labels... define what is str8 and what is gay and you are stuck in defining yourself through labels..

    I think for me I like to be masculine! its not about being str8. I can silly and be like "girl please" sometimes but i have always been more masculine and do more masculine things... I dont think its acthing str8 or gay for me.
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    Dec 18, 2011 1:27 AM GMT
    Tfell83 saidWell I think I could pretty confidently call being into drag queens a fetish - wouldn't you? And in my experience Drag queens get most of their attention from straight men anyway, further proving my point

    . And I left out young for olld because it is not relevant in a discussion about masculinity. I already said that many other opposite features attract, innocence to cynicism, shyness to confidence etc.

    The fact that opposite personalities/ages can attract and do is a silly moot point to make when I have already covered it.

    He was initially discussing the reasons for men become defensive about the obviousness of their homosexuality. I just don't believe a simplistic explanation of 'oh they must harbour self hatred about themselves' iis a good enough one.

    It patently ignores the different dynamic in homosexuality of likeness IN TERMS OF GENDER CONFORMITY attracting like.

    Just going on my 28 years of experience in life, and I've seen a fair bit.


    This is bullshit.

    Drag queens are caricatures, they dont stay in drag every hour of their lives. They are entertainers.

    I know you left out opposites attract but you seem to leave in that guys want guys like themselves. Meaning similar guys attract. This is bullshit to only allow one side of the argument to stand and completely ignore the other.

    Amazing I'm 31 and have seen some shit too, how about that huh?

    He (the OP) is talking about how people are perceived on this site. This site implies Health fitness and sports RealJock. If this was a site called RealCulture or something along those lines I am more than sure the dynamic would be different.
  • tautomer

    Posts: 1010

    Dec 18, 2011 1:29 AM GMT
    Also (and this is important), and I believe this fit true for almost all of psychology:

    You CAN fit an individual person to a model.

    You CAN NOT fit a model to an individual person.
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    Dec 18, 2011 1:31 AM GMT
    No one thinks I'm gay.....until they start getting to know me, or until I tell them. I wouldnt say I'm straight acting or flamboyant. I would say that I just live my life the way that I want to. I don't give a rats ass what other people thnink about me, if you don't like me, then leave me the hell alone, there is no need for drama. I feel that other people should have the same outlook on life, instead of trying to please everyone else....YOU CAN ONLY LIVE ONCE
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    Dec 18, 2011 1:33 AM GMT
    tautomer4314 said

    No I am not basing all of my information on just this website. I'm basing it off of experience out in the real world as well. The reason I wrote it is I felt it would be relevent to a good chunk of people here.

    I could have written my initial post in much more detail or longer. The problem with that though is it would be much longer then most would want to read and this it wouldn't be seen or discussed by many, so I had to cut it down.


    Keep in mind, human behavior is exceedingly complex. There is no way you can describe everyone based off an observed trend. Only some will fit into it.


    But you did say

    "Ah that's another matter entirely, and largely has completely different psychological roots to it from this one. I didn't include it because it's simply not encountered on this website."

    icon_confused.gif

  • tautomer

    Posts: 1010

    Dec 18, 2011 1:37 AM GMT
    Claystation said
    tautomer4314 said

    No I am not basing all of my information on just this website. I'm basing it off of experience out in the real world as well. The reason I wrote it is I felt it would be relevent to a good chunk of people here.

    I could have written my initial post in much more detail or longer. The problem with that though is it would be much longer then most would want to read and this it wouldn't be seen or discussed by many, so I had to cut it down.


    Keep in mind, human behavior is exceedingly complex. There is no way you can describe everyone based off an observed trend. Only some will fit into it.


    But you did say

    "Ah that's another matter entirely, and largely has completely different psychological roots to it from this one. I didn't include it because it's simply not encountered on this website."

    icon_confused.gif



    Truth be told I am a bit confused now. Maybe I did not explain myself well enough.

    What I mean is, what you described is simply a different dynamic from a different group/type of people that doesn't really apply to what I described. It's inverted really. There are also different reasons and desires behind it (at least that is how I see it). There are simply not many people on realjock that are like that, and as such I just didn't explain it (little relevance).
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    Dec 18, 2011 1:50 AM GMT
    tautomer4314 said

    Truth be told I am a bit confused now. Maybe I did not explain myself well enough.

    What I mean is, what you described is simply a different dynamic from a different group/type of people that doesn't really apply to what I described. It's inverted really. There are also different reasons and desires behind it (at least that is how I see it). There are simply not many people on realjock that are like that, and as such I just didn't explain it (little relevance).


    What you describe in your first post is that gay = unattractive

    What I described to you in my initial post was that, I have experienced (not all the time) the complete opposite. That appearing straight = unattractive.

    And while you are looking for the reasons of why does gay = unattractive, I gave you some reasons why appearing straight = unattractive (assumed closet case, putting on an act, etc...)

    You seem to be attributing that gay = unattractive because of feminine mannerisms and possibly build.

    "I'm gay and attracted to men and manly characteristics. If I wanted feminine characteristics, I'd be straight".

    Remember?