Forbes: The Ugly Realities Of Socialized Medicine Are Not Going Away

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    Dec 21, 2011 12:07 AM GMT
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2011/12/19/the-ugly-realities-of-socialized-medicine-are-not-going-away-3/

    Sally C. Pipes is President, CEO, and Taube Fellow in Health Care Studies at the Pacific Research Institute. Her next book — The Pipes Plan: The Top Ten Ways to Dismantle and Replace Obamacare (Regnery) — will be released in January 2012.

    excerpts:


    The United Kingdom is the latest to tighten its belt. The National Health Service (NHS) — the centralized public agency that runs Britain’s government healthcare system — is being forced to shave $31 billion from its budget by 2015.

    These cuts are leading to a precipitous drop in the quality of care patients receive. The NHS has been living well beyond its means for quite awhile. And now brutal government-enforced cost controls are exacting a heavy human toll.

    ....

    Other nations with government-dominated healthcare systems offer a preview of the fiscal woes and substandard care that lie ahead thanks to the president’s spendthrift reform plan.

    ....

    They’ve foregone cutting-edge medical treatments available in the United States, told by their leaders that these new therapies were no better than the old ones — just more expensive. At least in Britain, they thought, everyone has access to basic health care. That has to be better than the situation in America, where tens of millions of people lack health insurance, right?

    Hardly. The British healthcare system may “guarantee” access to care — but that doesn’t mean patients actually receive it.

    ....

    A report released in October by Britain’s health regulator found that a stunning 20 percent of hospitals were failing to provide the minimum standard of care legally required for elderly patients.

    ....

    The problems with “universal” health care aren’t confined to Britain. Canada’s single-payer, government-run system — where any private health care is outlawed under the Canada Health Act — is similarly failing its patients.

    The Health Council of Canada recently surveyed over three thousand patients and found that those with chronic illnesses like high blood pressure or heart disease were largely dissatisfied with the medical care they received. Less than half of respondents with such conditions reported that the care they received was excellent or very good.

    ....

    Further, many Canadians travel to the United States and pay out of pocket for treatments and procedures, as they feel the wait in Canada is too long and harmful to their health.
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Dec 21, 2011 12:16 AM GMT
    Ahem .... Your post is total BS

    I WORK in medicine and there ain't no rush of Canadians coming over the border trying to get into OUR debacle of a healthcare system

    Try ... just TRY changing their system and replace it with an Americanized system you'd have MOBS out on the streets in Toronto
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    Dec 21, 2011 12:18 AM GMT
    GQjock saidAhem .... Your post is total BS

    I WORK in medicine and there ain't no rush of Canadians coming over the border trying to get into OUR debacle of a healthcare system

    Try ... just TRY changing their system and replace it with an Americanized system you'd have MOBS out on the streets in Toronto

    So you working in medicine in Florida gives you some insight into the Canadian situation and border crossings for medical services. Your credentials compared to the author of the article? Nada, zero.
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Dec 21, 2011 12:20 AM GMT
    By an overwhelming margin, Canadians prefer the Canadian health care system to the American one. Overall, 82% said they preferred the Canadian system, fully ten times the number who said the American system is superior (8%)....from a Harris-Decima poll (.pdf), July 2009. .

    The vast majority of Canadians, 91 per cent, felt that Canada's health care system was better than the United States...CTV, a Canadian television network, Jun. 29 2008, reporting on a survey, conducted by the Strategic Counsel for CTV and The Globe and Mail.

    In November 2004, Canadians voted Tommy Douglas, Canada's 'father of Medicare'") the Greatest Canadian of all time following a nationwide contest."... CBC

    People in Canada and Great Britain are significantly more satisfied with availability of affordable healthcare than their American counterparts ...Gallup Poll, March, 2003
    http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2009/08/never-mind-the-anecdotes-do-canadians-like-their-health-care-system.html
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Dec 21, 2011 12:21 AM GMT
    Andre Picard, Globe & Mail, CA - An overwhelming 86 per cent of Canadians favor “public solutions” for bolstering medicare, according to a new poll. . . “With more than eight in 10 Canadians supporting public solutions to make public health care stronger, there is compelling evidence that Canadians across all demographics would prefer a public over a for-profit health-care system,” said Nik Nanos, president of Nanos Research.
    A recent report by Health Canada found that 85 per cent of Canadians were “very satisfied” or “somewhat satisfied” with health-care services overall.
    http://prorev.com/2009/08/four-of-five-canadians-like-their.html
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 21, 2011 12:25 AM GMT
    Reaching back to 2003 with the latest 2009? Maybe the shit hit the fan in recent years. Is that possible?
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    Dec 21, 2011 12:29 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said636_Obama_shhh_2.jpg
    Dont tell the conservatives that they enjoy the largest socialized medicine in this nation!...

    The Veterans Administration! oopsie!
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    Dec 21, 2011 1:25 AM GMT
    socalfitness saidReaching back to 2003 with the latest 2009? Maybe the shit hit the fan in recent years. Is that possible?


    No.. things have actually gotten even better in many areas where wait times are down..

    Now don't forget, which most outsiders do, that the Fed Govt of Canada does NOT operate hospitals, does not hire or pay doctors, etc etc etc.. All the Fed Govt of Canada does is enforce the Canada Health Act and dole out federal money to the provinces to run their own systems. The provinces are more or less free to apportion the money how they see fit so long as they stay within the guidelines.
    Like "no for profit" hospitals.
    The Fed Govt of Canada DOES NOT DICTATE to the provinces what procedures they can and cannot perform etc.
    There is no stampede of Canadians to the US border. Sure some people go if they're willing to pay themselves and yes sometimes if a procedure isn't available in the province but is available at a hospital in the US then the province may airlift that person to a US hospital for the procedure paying for it out of provincial coffers.
    The reverse is also true.. there are procedures done in Canadian hospitals that are not offered in the US or are better served than a US hospital or for a lower cost and US patients are shipped up here as well.. You don't here about that down there though.

    Another myth if you want to call it about US healthcare I think is that so many people down there think, even if they have a health plan, is that they're automatically entitled to "the best". Well sorry to say not every hospital out of the thousands are the best.. Having coverage in the US does NOT entitle the patient carte blanche access to the Mayo Clinic or John Hopkins etc, maybe not even the best in their own city.. Their Health Care Provider is the one in most cases who dictates where they are going to be treated and by whom AND not all of the "staff" who are operating on them may not be in that plan.. Lo and behold the patient gets hit with an outrageous bill for say the anesthesiologist because he isn't on your particular health care coverages formulary or authorized list, hence not covered. It's a minefield.

    Now this is interesting:
    Recently some Michigan hospitals have been placing advertisements in local Canadian newspapers offering Canadians 50% off,, yes, half off the cost of procedures like knee replacements, etc.. So what about the poor Michiganders who have to foot the whole $10,000.00 cost.. doesn't seem fair does it. Or their health care providers that are paying $10,000.00 from Michiganders premiums.
    It's all about money.
  • KissTheSky

    Posts: 1980

    Dec 21, 2011 1:37 AM GMT
    If you want to talk about wait times, how about the millions of Americans who can't afford health insurance? Their wait times are the longest: forever. Or until they die, which will be hastened by our completely f*cked up system.
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    Dec 21, 2011 2:00 AM GMT
    Above, I'm not saying that the Canadian system is perfect because it does have flaws but you can't make blanket generalizations because things vary across the provinces and even within the province or area of a province itself.

    For example, there may be a minimal wait time in some areas for a knee job whereas somewhere else somebody may be waiting 6 months.

    What is happening though is that all these stats are being published and highlighted more everywhere and provinces are under the gun (of voters) to make improvements or else... The else being that if they don't they may not get re elected.
    Canadian politicians are very very wary of treading too far into the healthcare issue if what they're proposing is going to upset voters. Very wary.

    Universal healthcare is probably Canadas most sacrosanct institution bar none.
  • KissTheSky

    Posts: 1980

    Dec 21, 2011 2:13 AM GMT
    beneful1 said Above, I'm not saying that the Canadian system is perfect because it does have flaws but you can't make blanket generalizations because things vary across the provinces and even within the province or area of a province itself.

    For example, there may be a minimal wait time in some areas for a knee job whereas somewhere else somebody may be waiting 6 months.

    What is happening though is that all these stats are being published and highlighted more everywhere and provinces are under the gun (of voters) to make improvements or else... The else being that if they don't they may not get re elected.
    Canadian politicians are very very wary of treading too far into the healthcare issue if what they're proposing is going to upset voters. Very wary.

    Universal healthcare is probably Canadas most sacrosanct institution bar none.


    Well, that's odd. You mean your entire country didn't immediately fall into the abyss of Socialism®? But... but that's what our own dim-bulb conservatives have been hysterically assuring us would happen if we implemented any of the same policies here.
    And people in Canada and the UK (our closest allies) actually prefer that system, by huge margins?
    Hmmm, could it be a certain political party has been lying through their teeth? What a shocker...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 21, 2011 2:25 AM GMT
    KissTheSky said
    beneful1 said Above, I'm not saying that the Canadian system is perfect because it does have flaws but you can't make blanket generalizations because things vary across the provinces and even within the province or area of a province itself.

    For example, there may be a minimal wait time in some areas for a knee job whereas somewhere else somebody may be waiting 6 months.

    What is happening though is that all these stats are being published and highlighted more everywhere and provinces are under the gun (of voters) to make improvements or else... The else being that if they don't they may not get re elected.
    Canadian politicians are very very wary of treading too far into the healthcare issue if what they're proposing is going to upset voters. Very wary.

    Universal healthcare is probably Canadas most sacrosanct institution bar none.


    Well, that's odd. You mean your entire country didn't immediately fall into the abyss of Socialism®? But... but that's what our own dim-bulb conservatives have been hysterically assuring us would happen if we implemented any of the same policies here.
    And people in Canada and the UK (or closest allies) actually prefer that system, by huge margins?
    Hmmm, could it be a certain political party has been lying through their teeth? What a shocker...


    Not to mention that it relieves corporations and small businesses of the burden of paying for healthcare, which makes companies in countries with socialized medicine more competitive than US companies.
  • ozhanSean

    Posts: 186

    Dec 21, 2011 2:36 AM GMT
    Obama's health care bill is not socialized medicine. Unfortunately! Single payer only! What Obama has now is not only not going to be efficient but it is actually more of a business deal for the corporations involved with healthcare.More over comparing the current US medical system is not a good measure, the US is a terrible example of a medical system of any kind. For what we are paying we are getting a terrible deal. US has nothing to loose when it comes to health care!
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    Dec 21, 2011 2:38 AM GMT
    ozhanSean saidObama's health care bill is not socialized medicine. Unfortunately! Single payer only! What Obama has now is not only not going to be efficient but it is actually more of a business deal for the corporations involved with healthcare.More over comparing the current US medical system is not a good measure, the US is a terrible example of a medical system of any kind. For what we are paying we are getting a terrible deal. US has nothing to loose when it comes to health care!


    Amen!
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    Dec 21, 2011 2:46 AM GMT
    Just an observation. I created this thread because the author has excellent credentials and her article was published on a very credible site, Forbes. Her bio is below. Do her credentials mean she is correct in any or all aspects of her article or that she is above being challenged? Of course not. What I noticed, not to my surprise, that the except for one respondent who cited old studies, none of the responses dealt with anything other than the conclusions. There were absolutely no substantive challenges to the contents of the article.

    Most of the time liberals here discount arguments by attacking the source, either the author or the site where the material was published. That was not done here because the author and the site do not have negative reputations. So you didn't have that as a convenient excuse, but you still did not bother to make any attempt to provide a logical and substantive challenge. That indicates that the liberals here are characterized by a combination of laziness, intellectual dishonesty, and ignorance or stupidity. It indicates the political arguments from the left will continue to be similar.

    ------------------------------------------

    Sally Pipes:

    I am the president, CEO, and Taube Fellow in Health Care Studies at the Pacific Research Institute, a San Francisco-based think tank. I regularly address national and international audiences on healthcare issues. My written works have appeared in top newspapers throughout the country, and I've been interviewed on CNN, FOX News, MSNBC, and many other prominent outlets. As a native Canadian and naturalized American, I have a unique understanding of how government-run single-payer healthcare systems actually operate -- and why such ideas are wrong for America. I have published three books: in 2004 titled, Miracle Cure: How to Solve America’s Health Care Crisis and Why Canada Isn’t the Answer (2004), The Top Ten Myths of American Health Care: A Citizen’s Guide ( 2008 ), and The Truth About Obamacare (2010). My fourth is currently in the works.
  • KissTheSky

    Posts: 1980

    Dec 21, 2011 3:47 AM GMT
    And yet the citizens in the UK and Canada are so satisfied with their systems. In my opinion they have much more credibility on their own health care systems than a right-wing think tank in the U.S. that gets its funding from who knows what corporation.