Jerusalem - The final reason for my non-belief in any creator...

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    Dec 25, 2011 11:32 PM GMT
    ...because if there were really a "loving, kind, jealous, etc. etc." creator, he would have intervened by now to show us who's the REAL god...yet after all these years, he hasn't.

    If this documentary doesn't do the same thing for you, then please research the origins and history of your desired faith, because it is wrong. There is no god.

  • monet

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    Dec 26, 2011 12:45 AM GMT
    I think you need to read the Bible. All the "proof" you need is right in that single book.
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    Dec 26, 2011 12:49 AM GMT
    Very interesting documentary. Over the years, I've gone from a person of a particular faith to an agnostic. The bible does not offer me any proof. To me the bible is a collection of writings from different men with their views at that time in their lives.
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    Dec 26, 2011 2:14 AM GMT
    This was a very informative documentary which exposes greater layers of complexity as to why the Palestinian Arab and Israeli conflict is unsettled today. These two groups are the inheritors of a passing parade of conflicts over an area of earth (now infused with religious significance) that go back thousands of years. One feature of the documentary is that it reveals that powers, prelates and princes both near and far away from the theatre of conflict have always (even to this day) sought to influence outcomes that advance what they consider their own interests in the area.

    Thank you for bringing forward this gift at this time. It is as great as gold, frankincence and myrrh and to think that it came from a non-believer!
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    Dec 26, 2011 3:08 AM GMT
    monet saidI think you need to read the Bible. All the "proof" you need is right in that single book.
    Which "bible?" There are 1000's.
    Choose your poison.
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    Dec 26, 2011 3:11 AM GMT
    paulflexes said...because if there were really a "loving, kind, jealous, etc. etc." creator, he would have intervened by now to show us who's the REAL god...yet after all these years, he hasn't.

    If this documentary doesn't do the same thing for you, then please research the origins and history of your desired faith, because it is wrong. There is no god.


    Sorry, but you can claim there is no God just as easily as I can say there is. And I can make sound and reasoned arguments to prove my point, the same way you can. In the end it comes down to personal beliefs and convictions - you would discount my argument because I'm operating on the assumption that there is a kind and loving God, while I would discount yours for arguing from the opposite perspective. People cause conflict, and people have it in their power to solve it. Free will, my friend.
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    Dec 26, 2011 3:16 AM GMT
    monet saidI think you need to read the Bible. All the "proof" you need is right in that single book.


    I've read it, twice through, and can't picture the parts that prove anything. In 1 Thessalonians Chapter 5, verse 21, Paul writes, "Prove all things," and I took that as a personal challenge.

    The part I couldn't reconcile was the account of creation when contrasted with the fossil and geologic record. Perhaps you've seen some proofs in the bible I've missed? More dubious proof is in prophesy, many of which were claimed to be fulfilled by countless pretenders to the messiah.

    I'm seriously interested in knowing what proof you think exists.
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    Dec 26, 2011 3:20 AM GMT
    Anyone played World of Warcraft? Visited Satthara lately? Just an idea of what needs to happen between Isreal and the PLO. A neutral party needs to come in and rule all in order for full peace to exist. The current status doesn't change anything for as far as my beliefs go. The fact that that part of the world is a mess doesn't effect my opinion or faith for that matter. I think it can very simply be explained. The Jews killed their king so bad shit has happened to this since as a result... one of which is losing their land. New people came in and lived there. The idea that someone in or about 1950 could walk back in to some part of land and say THAT is GREAT GREAT GREAT...... GREAT GRANDFATHER'S LAND AND I CLAM IT BACK! is bullshit. My family owned Hundereds of Acers of land in Mexico before the Mexican revolution... you don't see us trying to claim back what was taken from us. I think it was a stupid political move which ultimantly came down to money talking. Bad things continue to happen because MEN make them happen. Evil exist in the world just as God does. Can't have one without the other.
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    Dec 26, 2011 3:25 AM GMT
    mickeytopogigio said
    monet saidI think you need to read the Bible. All the "proof" you need is right in that single book.


    I've read it, twice through, and can't picture the parts that prove anything. In 1 Thessalonians Chapter 5, verse 21, Paul writes, "Prove all things," and I took that as a personal challenge.

    The part I couldn't reconcile was the account of creation when contrasted with the fossil and geologic record. Perhaps you've seen some proofs in the bible I've missed? More dubious proof is in prophesy, many of which were claimed to be fulfilled by countless pretenders to the messiah.

    I'm seriously interested in knowing what proof you think exists.


    The Catholic Church actually teaches that the account of creation in the Bible is not really meant to be taken literally. The essential point of the creation story is that all things came in to being through the will and the plan of God. How God exercised this will could very well be through the Big Bang and the development of the universe as scientists describe it today. As far as evolution, the Church recognizes it as scientific fact, but the important aspect of creation is that man's soul was created by God - the story of Adam and Eve is just a way to describe how humans at one point turned away from their creator.

    This article offers a pretty good summary if you're interested.
    http://www.catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution
  • d_1M

    Posts: 598

    Dec 26, 2011 3:25 AM GMT
    waist of time

    when some one does not want to belive on something you show them a red apple and they will say to your very face i think is not that red

    so whatever. !!!
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    Dec 26, 2011 3:26 AM GMT
    I dont think there is a god because a book tells me so....

    I think there is a creator simply because its an easier mental exercise to have a cosmos with a creator than one without....

    That said, there is room for a destroyer and everything else in that cosmos.... hmmm

    Also, "believe" is a strong word...I can assume or suppose based on perception, experience and rational logic.. none of which are 100% believable.... as anything can fool you..
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    Dec 26, 2011 3:32 AM GMT
    clarkt91 said
    mickeytopogigio said
    monet saidI think you need to read the Bible. All the "proof" you need is right in that single book.


    I've read it, twice through, and can't picture the parts that prove anything. In 1 Thessalonians Chapter 5, verse 21, Paul writes, "Prove all things," and I took that as a personal challenge.

    The part I couldn't reconcile was the account of creation when contrasted with the fossil and geologic record. Perhaps you've seen some proofs in the bible I've missed? More dubious proof is in prophesy, many of which were claimed to be fulfilled by countless pretenders to the messiah.

    I'm seriously interested in knowing what proof you think exists.


    The Catholic Church actually teaches that the account of creation in the Bible is not really meant to be taken literally. The essential point of the creation story is that all things came in to being through the will and the plan of God. How God exercised this will could very well be through the Big Bang and the development of the universe as scientists describe it today. As far as evolution, the Church recognizes it as scientific fact, but the important aspect of creation is that man's soul was created by God - the story of Adam and Eve is just a way to describe how humans at one point turned away from their creator.

    This article offers a pretty good summary if you're interested.
    http://www.catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution


    The catholics these days dont take much of anything literally... that was like in the middle ages... these days priests when they get sick.. they go see doctors and use scientific medicine... of course that does not mean we stop praying.. most studies have shown that being religious and prayer help to heal diseases faster and extend lifespan... its more one hand washing the other (religion and science) than them fighting it out these days... religion is based on stuff you cant prove empirically.. and science solely on stuff you can... the two work hand in hand pretty much... you cant expect to know everything through science... and you cant expect to fix everything by faith alone.. you have a brain for a reason.... its a tool to be used... just as religion is a stick to lean on.. not one to hit people with
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    Dec 26, 2011 3:51 AM GMT
    054phx saidVery interesting documentary. Over the years, I've gone from a person of a particular faith to an agnostic. The bible does not offer me any proof. To me the bible is a collection of writings from different men with their views at that time in their lives.


    Yup, and there are about as many views on religion as there are people in the world... no two will ever fully agree....

    That said... a lot of the bible is tribal jewish ruling.. they are meant to keep the tribe together and to distinguish them from other tribes.. hence the no tattoo, no mixing of threads, rules for eating etc..... Most tribes these days still have such rules and live by them.. unique to the tribe........ and they ALL believe these rules were laid down by their tribal gods ... they are certainly not meant for everyone ... the jews were not evangelists... evangelism is a christian, muslim and buddhist thing
  • daveindenver

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    Dec 26, 2011 3:54 AM GMT
    More have died for religious causes than any other (I've read somewhere.)
    Too bad we can't erase all the buildings generating all the conflict
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    Dec 26, 2011 4:31 AM GMT
    Fellas, We should stop debating religious belief or lack thereof. It is counter-productive and leads down a dead-end road where nobody's opinion is changed.
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    Dec 26, 2011 4:44 AM GMT
    ReadyBuddy saidFellas, We should stop debating religious belief or lack thereof. It is counter-productive and leads down a dead-end road where nobody's opinion is changed.


    Hmm, i dont think so myself... I find it interesting to see how other people think.. it might also give me ideas and other ways of thinking.... the point is not always to change people opinions but to understand where the other person is coming from... taken in that.. all debate is productive.... you just have to remember that there can never be a "winner".. otherwise you get lost and start to think you have to win somebody over.... we all make that mistake once in a while.. keep your eye on the goal.. to learn about others' opinions and ways of thinking and to see things from another's point of view.. if you do that.. no debate is wasted ... icon_smile.gif
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    Dec 26, 2011 4:47 AM GMT
    clarkt91 said
    paulflexes said...because if there were really a "loving, kind, jealous, etc. etc." creator, he would have intervened by now to show us who's the REAL god...yet after all these years, he hasn't.

    If this documentary doesn't do the same thing for you, then please research the origins and history of your desired faith, because it is wrong. There is no god.


    Sorry, but you can claim there is no God just as easily as I can say there is. And I can make sound and reasoned arguments to prove my point, the same way you can. In the end it comes down to personal beliefs and convictions - you would discount my argument because I'm operating on the assumption that there is a kind and loving God, while I would discount yours for arguing from the opposite perspective. People cause conflict, and people have it in their power to solve it. Free will, my friend.

    Very well said. Intelligent, rational people can come to different conclusions. Live and let live.
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    Dec 26, 2011 4:53 AM GMT
    Thank you for giving me a reason to eat my kettle corn. icon_wink.gif
  • Michael_TLV

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    Dec 26, 2011 5:04 AM GMT
    Thank you for this documentary. I am actually from the Old City, minutes from the Temple Mount and the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, and still have family and a house in the Christian Quarter of the Old City.

    I have to admit, I learned a lot from this documentary.
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    Dec 26, 2011 3:05 PM GMT
    Did you know that Peter, Christ's brother, who Christ said was the rock upon which his church would be built, preached that Christ was solely the Messiah of the Jewish people and no one else.

    Paul was originally a persecutor of Christians, but had a vision and converted. He decided Christ was for everyone.


    Eventually Peter came to agree with Paul. So it's easy to see the bible is a much tampered with tome. In those days politics was religion and religion was politics.

    Nevertheless, Christ's messages and acts were extraordinary, and I believe the persecution of him and his resulting crucifixion an enormous lesson, a powerful trigger of humanity's collective (and each individual's) conscience, which I believe was our redemption.

    That cross so many parade about is a giant stop sign, a warning of what we can be capable of still, and to never do that to another person. In this regard, he is for everyone.

    -Doug

    The above is just one example of interpreting the bible rather than entering the hell of taking it literally.
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    Dec 26, 2011 4:07 PM GMT
    meninlove said Did you know that Peter, Christ's brother, who Christ said was the rock upon which his church would be built, preached that Christ was solely the Messiah of the Jewish people and no one else.


    Thats what "messiah" used to mean.... and it was a Jewish religious belief the Messiah would come... what is so interesting about christianity is that the jewsh beliefs form only a small part of its essence.... the jews having lived and spread out throughout the empire cross-pollinated their ideas with the pagans, the greeks, the persians, the north africans, the hindu-buddhists (who had settled in what is now Israel after the Greeks began to move to Pakistan after Alexander the Great unified the west with the east..) and all of these ideas and people mingled freely in the Roman empire... so that Christianity, which is essentially a Roman religion, unified Egyptian wiht Jewish with HIndu etc ideas and rituals...

    25th of december is the date of a Persian god's celebration in old Iran

    A god dying and rising is from an ancient Egyptian myth

    The Messiah is from the Jewish lore

    Christmas Trees are a germanic/norse pagan tradition

    Bells came from the Hindu-Buddhist temple design

    The Saints in the churches carry a plethora of Egyptian, Pagan .. and here in the America's... Indigenous and African regalia dating back to the pre-Christian gods

    The philosophies of "salvation" date back to both Greek and Indian philosophical schools, which the legendary Jesus was well versed in, being a jew in the Greek roman Empire


    Etc etc etc... Christianity is a truly syncretic religion... and it keeps syncretising more traditions and myths as it spreads.... "santa clause" is a mixture of a Turkish Saint with an old Germanic Norse-god myth, halloween (All hallows eve, or the day beore All Saints Day) is the Irish new year incorporated into the Catholic calender the "Day of the dead" in mexico is a combination of Aztec or ancient Mexica ancestor worship and the church... and so it goes on...

    Its what is so powerful about Christianity in the end.. it is so fluid and adaptable wherever it goes....
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    Dec 26, 2011 4:12 PM GMT
    Good points, Greenhopper my greenhopper.

    We read a letter in the most recent newspaper by a woman who claimed the christmas tree represented christ's gift of eternal life. I sprayed soup laughing. She then went on to explain the christian meaning of coloured christmas tree lights etc. Good golly.
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    Dec 26, 2011 4:25 PM GMT
    being a science major I've heard all of the theories and scientific ideologies about the origin of life, and, I'm not saying you shouldn't believe that either, but I have always had one question. Since it is a proven fact that matter cannot be created or destroyed by any imaginable means, and the "big bang" theory has been disproved, science fails to account for one thing in particular. Where did everything come from?
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    Dec 26, 2011 4:26 PM GMT
    meninlove said Good points, Greenhopper my greenhopper.

    We read a letter in the most recent newspaper by a woman who claimed the christmas tree represented christ's gift of eternal life. I sprayed soup laughing. She then went on to explain the christian meaning of coloured christmas tree lights etc. Good golly.


    Well, from a religiously syncretic view point.. she is right =)

    Christmas tree = pine tree with lights....

    pine tree = ever green... life lasting throughout the dark and cold ("dead") period.. = eternal life ;)

    The "lights" btw are meant to celebrate the days becoming longer after the 21st.. which is the darkest day of the year... so its christ "enlightening" the world hihi
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    Dec 26, 2011 4:28 PM GMT
    lol, she was telling the reader about the tree and lights origins.