Thoughts on Gay “Relationships”

  • Another_Jerem...

    Posts: 355

    Dec 26, 2011 1:40 AM GMT
    This may be unchristmasy, but do you guys think that when it comes to dating gay men are just inverted heterosexuals? I've had this discussion with my friends numerous times, but I just don't think it's true. I think the whole courtship process is much more brief and that it revolves around sex. Yes, there are most assuredly straight people who do the same, but not to the extent that I have witnessed in the gay community.

    Most of my gay friends assure me that it's my negative, cynical attitude as I am sure some people on this thread will be prone to do. I find it very curious that minorities, and men who lack the gay conventions of attractiveness (younger than 40, Caucasian, relatively thin, around 5'10'' or taller) agree almost to the person.

    Perception or myth? Thoughts?
  • DesireIron

    Posts: 426

    Dec 26, 2011 1:54 AM GMT
    inverted heterosexuals??? not sure what that means.
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    Dec 26, 2011 1:59 AM GMT
    Another_Jeremy saidThis may be unchristmasy, but do you guys think that when it comes to dating gay men are just inverted heterosexuals? I've had this discussion with my friends numerous times, but I just don't think it's true. I think the whole courtship process is much more brief and that it revolves around sex. Yes, there are most assuredly straight people who do the same, but not to the extent that I have witnessed in the gay community.

    Most of my gay friends assure me that it's my negative, cynical attitude as I am sure some people on this thread will be prone to do. I find it very curious that minorities, and men who lack the gay conventions of attractiveness (younger than 40, Caucasian, relatively thin, around 5'10'' or taller) agree almost to the person.

    Perception or myth? Thoughts?


    Key Words: I find it very curious that minorities, and men who lack the gay conventions of attractiveness (younger than 40, Caucasian, relatively thin, around 5'10'' or taller) agree almost to the person.

    Answer:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
  • waccamatt

    Posts: 1918

    Dec 26, 2011 3:03 AM GMT
    Jeremy, you lost me when you put the word relationships in quotes. There is no one size fits all answer for everything. The millions of gay men in this country are not monoliths who all think and act the same so get over it. If you want to meet like minded men, join some organizations where such guys hang out. They may or may not be on Real Jock, but you never know. The first step is to quit painting everyone with such a broad brush.
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    Dec 26, 2011 3:08 AM GMT
    The courtship process between two men is what you make of it. Be it one night or six months... its for you both to figure out. Personally, I choose to wait a while before going there and it does no revolve around sex. What you are describing has some degree of an aging out affect once a person gets past the age of 25 so it seems. Maybe you've encountered people whom are in that normal GWM not giving you or other minorities a chance... (and I've heard this argument before)... but I actually have lots of luck wth this group. I relate better with most white guys or VERY americanized hispanics.Really it just depends.
  • jackthejock

    Posts: 395

    Dec 26, 2011 3:28 AM GMT
    I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. I read the post twice and can't make any sense of it. Inverted means upside down. Gay relationships are upside down straight relationships?!?!? Did you write that in another language then put it through google translate?
  • Another_Jerem...

    Posts: 355

    Dec 26, 2011 5:08 AM GMT
    To those who want to parse words with me over the definition of the word "inverted," the second definition of the word on mirriam's website is homosexual.

    http://i.word.com/imedical/inverted

    I respect a few of the comments, but the discussion is about comparing generalities. Of course there are exceptions, but I think pretending they are the norm is willful ignorance at best. I'm not saying that it's because gay men are genetically inferior or that they have the seed of the Devil their bellies, but monogamous relationships or just relationships that last more than two seconds seem to be te exception not the rule.
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    Dec 26, 2011 5:15 AM GMT
    Another_Jeremy saidTo those who want to parse words with me over the definition of the word "inverted," the second definition of the word on mirriam's website is homosexual.

    http://i.word.com/imedical/inverted

    I respect a few of the comments, but the discussion is about comparing generalities. Of course there are exceptions, but I think pretending they are the norm is willful ignorance at best. I'm not saying that it's because gay men are genetically inferior or that they have the seed of the Devil their bellies, but monogamous relationships or just relationships that last more than two seconds seem to be te exception not the rule.


    Are you speaking from experience? Were all of your heterosexual relationships meaningful and long lasting?
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    Dec 26, 2011 5:22 AM GMT
    waccamatt saidJeremy, you lost me when you put the word relationships in quotes.


    I'm with waccamatt... why put 'gay "relationships" ' in quotation marks... it makes me wonder if your friends who would describe you as cynical might be onto something...

    I'm white... but I'm over 40, I'm short (5'7") and I think I'm OK looking but I'm by no means a gay A-lister, and I don't share your opinion.

    However I think what you might be alluding to is the fact that within the gay community the values surrounding sex and relationships are often different from the straight world's values. Gay couples can be more honest about differentiating between sex and love, gay people are more inclined to make their own rules when it comes to relationships rather than simply following the path set out for straight people (BF or GF, marriage, kids, divorce, etc) and I for one am happy that as a gay person, I have been able to think about and choose what kinds of relationships and what kinds of sex I would have, as opposed to blindly following society's conventions and what was expected of me.

    My two cents' worth.
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    Dec 26, 2011 5:53 AM GMT
    I know where this mind state comes from, you do feel slightly rejected, it's not in your mind. I don't want to believe that, the reason you feel less accepted. I've found plenty of guys who are attracted ot black guys. Was I interested in them, no I wasn't. They were all different races, and they did vary, age wise. I've seen a lot more gay white couples than gay black couples, or any black guys married. I don't really know.

    I use to think maybe I was weird because I am strongly attracted to white guys more than other races, I don't know why, just am. I personally don't believe in marriage at all, I feel it's dumb, and just a social structure that's believed to be the pinnacle of a persons love for another, and it just isn't.

    I think I'm still pretty shallow if i choose to start a relationship with someone just by how they look. Though that's how every relationship initially starts. I feel a little lost in this area, because I've never been in a relationship, but I don't think it's because I'm black. I was in the closet, and maybe It was cause I use to be Obese, and maybe I wasn't mature enough to understand what I want. Now, I know, now I'm picking amongst the pot, eventually I'll find what i'm after, or I'll end up being that lonely old black guy at the bar getting rejected by the new models. It's your life, and it's your choices that effect the outcome.

    If a guy passes me up, he's probably straight, or I'm just not his type. I pass up guys that aren't my type all the time, Rejection plays tricks on your mind. Makes you feel like you don't have worth, or that something is wrong with you. I mean that's how you should feel, but not about your race, and you'll try to analyze it as many different ways as possible, and from those think about how you could be better, all while moving on to someone else.

    You can blame past 20 years of fashion magazines. They feed you what male beauty should be, and more often than not it's a white face 6 feet tall and thin, so I can understand where the mind games come from.


  • jackthejock

    Posts: 395

    Dec 26, 2011 6:15 AM GMT
    doubleyou said
    speedobuddy said
    waccamatt saidJeremy, you lost me when you put the word relationships in quotes.


    I'm with waccamatt... why put 'gay "relationships" ' in quotation marks... it makes me wonder if your friends who would describe you as cynical might be onto something...

    I'm white... but I'm over 40, I'm short (5'7") and I think I'm OK looking but I'm by no means a gay A-lister, and I don't share your opinion.

    However I think what you might be alluding to is the fact that within the gay community the values surrounding sex and relationships are often different from the straight world's values. Gay couples can be more honest about differentiating between sex and love, gay people are more inclined to make their own rules when it comes to relationships rather than simply following the path set out for straight people (BF or GF, marriage, kids, divorce, etc) and I for one am happy that as a gay person, I have been able to think about and choose what kinds of relationships and what kinds of sex I would have, as opposed to blindly following society's conventions and what was expected of me.



    So, in other words, you revel in the fact that it's more acceptable and expected for gay men to be immature, non-committing, sex-addicted, conceited whores. Got it.

    Those are some values right there, I'll tell you what.



    I don't think that is what he is saying at all. He is saying that gay people are more open to different relationship types, standards and values. I know many gay men in monogamous committed relationships, I also know some in honest open relationships and I know some that don't ever want a serious relationship. Because being gay already puts people outside of the norm, gay people don't feel the need to conform to just one relationship ideal.
  • slimnmuscly

    Posts: 541

    Dec 26, 2011 7:18 AM GMT
    I agree with some of the commenters that the post could be more clearly worded, but I think part of what you may be saying is that as a minority, specifically, a black man, you feel like a lot of guys are interested in you only for sex and not for a relationship...and/or even by that criterion the sexual opportunities aren't there the way they are for white guys with a certain type of look.

    Furthermore, you see these attitudes exacerbated among gay men (you probably weren't thinking of lesbians) compared with straight people.

    Did I read that correctly?
  • jackthejock

    Posts: 395

    Dec 26, 2011 7:52 AM GMT
    doubleyou said

    I know exactly what he's saying. I've read and heard comments like that a million times and they all come down to the same thing: I am free to be a childish slut because I can get away with it, justifying it using the "gay" defense and the lofty, flippant bs of not conforming to "straight norms."

    And there are tons of straight people who don't conform to those "straight norms," either, so it's not some gay male privilege of being a victim on the outside.

    Juvenile, self-serving crap is what it is. It's a huge problem with gay men and gay culture. And if gay men don't feel the need to conform to "just one" relationship ideal, then explain why promiscuity is so popular and considered the norm for gay men, and why so much of what can be called "gay culture" revolves around promiscuity, partying, and hook-ups?


    You claim to know exactly what he is saing, but your reply would suggest otherwise. He was saying gay people feel their status as being outside of the norm gives them the freedom to explore different types of relationships. Your response is accusing him of saying gay people use being different as an excuse to be promiscuous. Those are two radically different concepts. Not all alternative relationships are promiscuous, amoral, slutty, juvinile or whatever other negative adjectve you want to asign from your narrow, selfrighteous viewpoint.

    Personally I am in a serious, loving, monogamous and long term relationship. I am happy with my choice to be in this relationship and thankful for it everyday. But I don't think I would have ended up in this relationship if I didn't allow myself some other types of relationships and experinces in the past. I'm sorry that you are clearly bitter about men and relationships, maybe if you opened your eyes and evaluated your options you'd be able to move past your anger.
  • stratavos

    Posts: 1831

    Dec 26, 2011 8:03 AM GMT
    Findyourway saidI know where this mind state comes from, you do feel slightly rejected, it's not in your mind...

    You can blame past 20 years of fashion magazines. They feed you what male beauty should be, and more often than not it's a white face 6 feet tall and thin, so I can understand where the mind games come from.




    it's really tough to overwrite brainwashing, and subliminal messaging, but it is possible (like any habit that's been learned after being forced upon you).
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    Dec 26, 2011 8:08 AM GMT
    I am so confused...
  • Another_Jerem...

    Posts: 355

    Dec 26, 2011 9:17 AM GMT
    slimnmuscly saidI agree with some of the commenters that the post could be more clearly worded, but I think part of what you may be saying is that as a minority, specifically, a black man, you feel like a lot of guys are interested in you only for sex and not for a relationship...and/or even by that criterion the sexual opportunities aren't there the way they are for white guys with a certain type of look.

    Furthermore, you see these attitudes exacerbated among gay men (you probably weren't thinking of lesbians) compared with straight people.

    Did I read that correctly?


    You did indeed.
  • jackthejock

    Posts: 395

    Dec 26, 2011 6:25 PM GMT
    doubleyou said
    jackthejock said
    doubleyou said

    I know exactly what he's saying. I've read and heard comments like that a million times and they all come down to the same thing: I am free to be a childish slut because I can get away with it, justifying it using the "gay" defense and the lofty, flippant bs of not conforming to "straight norms."

    And there are tons of straight people who don't conform to those "straight norms," either, so it's not some gay male privilege of being a victim on the outside.

    Juvenile, self-serving crap is what it is. It's a huge problem with gay men and gay culture. And if gay men don't feel the need to conform to "just one" relationship ideal, then explain why promiscuity is so popular and considered the norm for gay men, and why so much of what can be called "gay culture" revolves around promiscuity, partying, and hook-ups?


    You claim to know exactly what he is saing, but your reply would suggest otherwise. He was saying gay people feel their status as being outside of the norm gives them the freedom to explore different types of relationships. Your response is accusing him of saying gay people use being different as an excuse to be promiscuous. Those are two radically different concepts. Not all alternative relationships are promiscuous, amoral, slutty, juvinile or whatever other negative adjectve you want to asign from your narrow, selfrighteous viewpoint.

    Personally I am in a serious, loving, monogamous and long term relationship. I am happy with my choice to be in this relationship and thankful for it everyday. But I don't think I would have ended up in this relationship if I didn't allow myself some other types of relationships and experinces in the past. I'm sorry that you are clearly bitter about men and relationships, maybe if you opened your eyes and evaluated your options you'd be able to move past your anger.


    Are you done? I hope so.



    I'm done discusing the topic if you're done twisting peoples words, making accusations and stereotyping.
  • waccamatt

    Posts: 1918

    Dec 26, 2011 6:27 PM GMT
    doubleyou said
    Another_Jeremy saidThis may be unchristmasy, but do you guys think that when it comes to dating gay men are just inverted heterosexuals? I've had this discussion with my friends numerous times, but I just don't think it's true. I think the whole courtship process is much more brief and that it revolves around sex. Yes, there are most assuredly straight people who do the same, but not to the extent that I have witnessed in the gay community.

    Most of my gay friends assure me that it's my negative, cynical attitude as I am sure some people on this thread will be prone to do. I find it very curious that minorities, and men who lack the gay conventions of attractiveness (younger than 40, Caucasian, relatively thin, around 5'10'' or taller) agree almost to the person.

    Perception or myth? Thoughts?


    You are absolutely correct. Prepare for 99% of the responses to tell you otherwise - and most of them will be whiny and adolescent, attacking you and not your observations.

    There is a lot of denial among gay men on this very topic.


    I think you'll find that most of the guys who have this attitude are closeted. Note the lack of a photo on that profile.
  • Another_Jerem...

    Posts: 355

    Dec 26, 2011 6:38 PM GMT
    waccamatt said
    doubleyou said
    Another_Jeremy saidThis may be unchristmasy, but do you guys think that when it comes to dating gay men are just inverted heterosexuals? I've had this discussion with my friends numerous times, but I just don't think it's true. I think the whole courtship process is much more brief and that it revolves around sex. Yes, there are most assuredly straight people who do the same, but not to the extent that I have witnessed in the gay community.

    Most of my gay friends assure me that it's my negative, cynical attitude as I am sure some people on this thread will be prone to do. I find it very curious that minorities, and men who lack the gay conventions of attractiveness (younger than 40, Caucasian, relatively thin, around 5'10'' or taller) agree almost to the person.

    Perception or myth? Thoughts?


    You are absolutely correct. Prepare for 99% of the responses to tell you otherwise - and most of them will be whiny and adolescent, attacking you and not your observations.

    There is a lot of denial among gay men on this very topic.


    I think you'll find that most of the guys who have this attitude are closeted. Note the lack of a photo on that profile.



    I have that attitude and i'm not closeted. The pressing issue is the superficiality in the gay community that many people refuse to challenge. Every other profile lists a desire for a nice guy. But then what follows is a laundry list of physical wants. Women do not tolerate that type of shit as readily. Thus lesbians and heterosexuals have longer lasting relationships. If you want a real relationship, it would seem to me that the person behind the pretty face should come first. It seems like many gay men never quite grow out of that.
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    Dec 26, 2011 7:03 PM GMT
    It doesn't happen as often (or at least as openly) in the straight world, because women don't allow it to happen. I think this reflects the nature of men in general more than specifically just gay men. Given the opportunity, I think most straight men would love to get busy right from the start, then let the rest work itself out. Most women seem to feel exactly the opposite.

    Gay men seem to consider sex to be a big, important part of the relationship right from the start. In straight relationships, it seems to be the reward for hanging in there for a certain amount of time. Both have their advantages. Neither is necessarily right or wrong.
  • jackthejock

    Posts: 395

    Dec 26, 2011 9:14 PM GMT
    doubleyou said
    jackthejock said
    doubleyou said
    jackthejock said
    doubleyou said

    I know exactly what he's saying. I've read and heard comments like that a million times and they all come down to the same thing: I am free to be a childish slut because I can get away with it, justifying it using the "gay" defense and the lofty, flippant bs of not conforming to "straight norms."

    And there are tons of straight people who don't conform to those "straight norms," either, so it's not some gay male privilege of being a victim on the outside.

    Juvenile, self-serving crap is what it is. It's a huge problem with gay men and gay culture. And if gay men don't feel the need to conform to "just one" relationship ideal, then explain why promiscuity is so popular and considered the norm for gay men, and why so much of what can be called "gay culture" revolves around promiscuity, partying, and hook-ups?


    You claim to know exactly what he is saing, but your reply would suggest otherwise. He was saying gay people feel their status as being outside of the norm gives them the freedom to explore different types of relationships. Your response is accusing him of saying gay people use being different as an excuse to be promiscuous. Those are two radically different concepts. Not all alternative relationships are promiscuous, amoral, slutty, juvinile or whatever other negative adjectve you want to asign from your narrow, selfrighteous viewpoint.

    Personally I am in a serious, loving, monogamous and long term relationship. I am happy with my choice to be in this relationship and thankful for it everyday. But I don't think I would have ended up in this relationship if I didn't allow myself some other types of relationships and experinces in the past. I'm sorry that you are clearly bitter about men and relationships, maybe if you opened your eyes and evaluated your options you'd be able to move past your anger.


    Are you done? I hope so.



    I'm done discusing the topic if you're done twisting peoples words, making accusations and stereotyping.


    All the things you're doing.



    You're not even making sense at his point. YOU are the one who said "you revel in the fact that it is acceptable and expected for gay men to be immature, non-commital, sex addicted, concieted whores". And YOU are the one who said promiscuity is the norm for gay people. That is what stereotyping is, those are accusations of gay people. What did I say that was a stereotype? Um nothing
  • slimnmuscly

    Posts: 541

    Dec 27, 2011 3:48 PM GMT
    Another_Jeremy said
    slimnmuscly saidI agree with some of the commenters that the post could be more clearly worded, but I think part of what you may be saying is that as a minority, specifically, a black man, you feel like a lot of guys are interested in you only for sex and not for a relationship...and/or even by that criterion the sexual opportunities aren't there the way they are for white guys with a certain type of look.

    Furthermore, you see these attitudes exacerbated among gay men (you probably weren't thinking of lesbians) compared with straight people.

    Did I read that correctly?


    You did indeed.


    Sorry about the slow reply - been on the road. But your post, although focused on relationships, reminded me of an interview I did nearly 12 years ago with an African-American escort in Philadelphia, where I'm currently staying. You might find some of the things he says resonates:

    http://reliablenarratives.com/2011/12/27/flashback-philadelphia-story-bastian-king-interview-june-5-2002/
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    Dec 27, 2011 4:16 PM GMT
    "Yes, there are most assuredly straight people who do the same, but not to the extent that I have witnessed in the gay community. "

    The gay community? There are thousands. RJ is one, for example.





    Your country is a hodge podge of watered down equality and in some places, employers can fire you for being gay, evict you for being gay, refuse to serve you for being gay.
    Consider for a moment what many straight relationships and dating would be like if they'd been raised that who and how they loved was wrong. That they could be beaten and even killed for it. That a vast majority appeared to look at it with disgust. That it was a huge and horrible sin in the eyes of god.


    -Doug
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    Dec 27, 2011 9:01 PM GMT
    speedobuddy said
    waccamatt saidJeremy, you lost me when you put the word relationships in quotes.


    I'm with waccamatt... why put 'gay "relationships" ' in quotation marks... it makes me wonder if your friends who would describe you as cynical might be onto something...

    I'm white... but I'm over 40, I'm short (5'7") and I think I'm OK looking but I'm by no means a gay A-lister, and I don't share your opinion.

    However I think what you might be alluding to is the fact that within the gay community the values surrounding sex and relationships are often different from the straight world's values. Gay couples can be more honest about differentiating between sex and love, gay people are more inclined to make their own rules when it comes to relationships rather than simply following the path set out for straight people (BF or GF, marriage, kids, divorce, etc) and I for one am happy that as a gay person, I have been able to think about and choose what kinds of relationships and what kinds of sex I would have, as opposed to blindly following society's conventions and what was expected of me.

    My two cents' worth.


    AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!
  • jimi_b

    Posts: 69

    Dec 27, 2011 9:04 PM GMT
    Personally, I'd never have sex with someone until I was in a relationship with them. I would never hook up with a randomer just because they were good looking, or even perfect in every way. If we're not looking for the same thing, I'll abandon any feelings I have towards them.