Sex before "domestic partnership" (Geez - can that get any more "breeder-ish??")

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 25, 2007 10:25 PM GMT
    I'm just on the verge of coming out all the way and leaving my wife.

    When I dated my wife, believe it or not, there was no sex before we got married - no petting, no necking, just affectionate kisses and hugs. I almost want this to be the case again, as I look for a partner (husband), but am thinking that I might be too idealistic in this, that it might be unrealistic to expect this.

    What do you guys think??
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    Jul 25, 2007 10:41 PM GMT
    Completely possible!
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    Jul 25, 2007 10:52 PM GMT
    We, my bf and I, did not have sex until 3 weeks after we met.

    I think that one has to be faithful to himself. If that's what you want then look for it. I'm sure that you will find a guy that suits you. :)
  • MikePhilPerez

    Posts: 4357

    Jul 26, 2007 12:39 AM GMT
    Well, believe it or not, I have only ever had sex with one guy, and that guy is my partner. It is not a legal partnership we are just boyfriends yet. Also he is the only guy I have ever been with, and I am the only guy he has ever been with. This is just the kind of guys we are. So I believe it is possible.

    Mike
  • irishkcguy

    Posts: 780

    Jul 26, 2007 1:02 AM GMT
    I know I am going to probably get criticized for this, but I think one of the reasons so many gay men wind up in dysfunctional relationships is because of our tendency to build relationships in reverse. We have sex first and if it's good we decide to proceed from there. The entire relationship is based on sex and when the sex gets old there is no basis for a relationship to fall back on.

    Again, this is a position that people may scorn but I believe sex is more than using another person's body to masturbate with. Sex is not only a physical act but also an emotional and spiritual one. Sex should enhance your connection to each other.

    Since gay men can't get married (yet) it does become hard to say no sex before marriage. But I think both people involved would benefit from getting to know each other. I think this used to be called "courtship."

    If people wait to add sex as a powerful addition to their relationship I think they have a much better chance of having a happier life.
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    Jul 26, 2007 1:11 AM GMT
    I agree with Irish. Really just because your gay doesn't mean your relationships are based on sex. They can be, but that's more fb than bf.

    I'd much rather have sex with someone I have an emotional/personality connection to.
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    Jul 26, 2007 1:40 AM GMT
    I'm w/ Irishkcguy on this as well. No criticism from me. It was once said, "sex is emotion in motion." Well, maybe that's true, but I'm not so sure it is in the gay world. Well, I have to run, but that's my 2 cents. Talk to y'all on Monday. :)

    NICK
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    Jul 26, 2007 1:40 AM GMT
    just wanna point out the comment by caporalpunition...

    "We, my bf and I, did not have sex until 3 weeks after we met."

    LMFAO!!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 26, 2007 2:47 AM GMT
    I respect any flavor of this sort of idealism, particularly in a gay world where a frightening number of people can't even name all of their sexual partners. The world needs more people who think as you do.
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    Jul 26, 2007 4:20 AM GMT
    Thanks, guys, it does my heart good to hear that there are "old fashioned" guys out there. I'm very big on committment. I have been very committed to my wife for 26 years, nearly 27 (it will be 27 by the time our divorce is final). Even after the divorce, I will still have a sense of committment to her, as a close personal friend, and ex wife. My partner, of course, will come first, but I think I owe her that respect. I will always love her.

    This second go round with a man will hopefully be the last relationship, lasting until one of us dies. I'm a one-man kind of man. It's important to me. So I want to keep it real and keep it affectionate until we make some kind of committment to each other, then add sex to our relationship to deepen it.

    I just really hope that I get a really good guy, who is well suited to me, and I to him. One who is not verbally, emotionally, or physically abusive, one who can deal with finances in a realistic way, and one who feels that we are a partnership, not a master/servant type of relationship in either direction. I help my wife now, and I intend to help my husband, when I have one. Anyway, chores are more fun when they're done together.
  • Drewboo

    Posts: 28

    Jul 26, 2007 4:26 AM GMT
    I share in your concerns. I really want to meet Mr Right, but it seems like men cannot grasp the concept of no sex until public commitment. I suppose its where we draw the line between actual human interaction and Storybook romance. Ideally, I want to meet Mr. Wonderful and date him for ever how long, not say "I love you" until after at least a year and then make love on our wedding night, but men are horndogs and while I have a very high libido myself too, it seems Im the only person who can control mine. I dont think I am mimicking heterosexual ideals either. While I do think we should create our own rules, the gay community that is, I dont think its appropriate to justify our faults as a community of horndog men by saying "I do not care about heterosexual norms." Im ranting now - I apologise. I suppose I just want that perfect true love storybook fairy tale romance as well. Good luck on finding something remotely close.
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    Jul 26, 2007 4:31 AM GMT
    I'm loving this thread.

    200% agreement with Drewboo too. "I dont think its appropriate to justify our faults as a community of horndog men by saying "I do not care about heterosexual norms."

    AMEN.
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    Jul 26, 2007 7:06 AM GMT
    Why do you guys have to be so damned young??? Or else why do I have to be so damned old???

    You notice that not one guy my age has responded to this thread?????
  • MikePhilPerez

    Posts: 4357

    Jul 26, 2007 9:25 AM GMT
    It is really refreshing to read all your posts here. I think my faith in humanity has been restored. I thought I was the odd one out in the gay world.

    I always feel like I must be the luckiest guy in the world to have the boyfriend I have, and I am, but some other guys will be lucky one day.

    Mike
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    Jul 26, 2007 10:34 AM GMT
    well its nice to see that my fiancee (R.I.P. baby) and myself are not the only guys that wanted to wait until we were married or at least until i was living under our own home and would be starting our everyday lives together. He was living in NYC and I was still in school in texas so thats why. But he didnt want to do anything the night he proposed to me even though I did. i guess it makes me love hiim ever more now thinking about it.

    i dont think its just the gay community but even hetro relationships seem to always be based on sex and I dont get that. I want to be with someone for a while and longer than say three weeks before even go there.
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    Jul 26, 2007 11:04 AM GMT
    My dear sundown55, may I remind you that I am 47, 48 in december !
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 26, 2007 1:08 PM GMT
    While I don't take it as far as wanting to wait for marriage, but I definitely do not have casual sex. I don't have sex when there's not real, established connection/intimacy of some kind. Someone upthread put it best when they likened a lot of casual sex to masturbating with someone else's body, it just feels incredibly empty. It may sound oddly conservative but sex is just way too intimate for me to hand out to just any Tom, Dick or Harry. On the other hand, if I were to meet someone and feel a majorly deep connection right away, I cannot say I would be opposed to having connected sex right away. But that has not happened yet in my life and seems it would be a one-of-a-kind occurence.
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    Jul 26, 2007 1:35 PM GMT
    Im sorry to introduce a negative view and i do agree that these views are nice, I also think they are wildly idealistic. The sad fact is that most people don't get it right the first time. Half of all breeder marriages end in divorce, I don't know the gay statistic because there are not many codified gay relationships but I would be willing to bet its equally as high. most heterosexuals no longer wait till marriage and very few gays do. If this is something you want I say go for it you have to do what is right for you, but I would also say that you might have a hard time finding a guy who feels the same.

    Also thinking that you are going to come out and end up in a relationship is wildly idealistic. Sure it happens for some people, all the ones I know of have broken up at this point pretty much, and I am young and know many people who came out very young. Maybe it is different when you are older.
  • DrStorm

    Posts: 185

    Jul 26, 2007 4:45 PM GMT
    Great thread and a good topic. Let's get one thing very clear here - sex and love are two very different things. Most men are good at separating them, most women are not.

    Let's look at a few scenarios to build up to where I am going with this. These are NOT far fetched scenarios...these are based on experiences (either mine or friends).

    SCENARIO 1:

    You meet someone online in the situation where no pictures are posted or the person has no pictures (this was VERY common back in the mid 90s). You end up really getting to like the person you are chatting to and perhaps after a couple of months (let's say you're not in the same city for argument's sake) you actually feel like he "is the one" - he understands you, he says all the right things, it feels "right" and you're ready to move cross country and meet him at the chapel. You keep saying to yourself looks don't matter, or I don't care how big his dick is or whatever "physical" doesn't matter...Now don't forget, at this stage if you could, you want to bear his children.....then you meet him face to face.

    Potential outcomes:

    a) he's HOT and everything you hoped for physically and you live happily ever after with him!

    b] he's HOT and everything you hoped for physically, but in reality you just don't click and you go on your own single way!

    c] he's HOT and everything you hoped for physically, but you're a big bottom and he has a tiny dick, but you're torn between him being Mr Perfect, but not being able to satisfy you in bed....You either leave him or stay with him because you've fallen in love with who he is and not what he looks like nor because he has a small dick.

    d] he's so damn ugly that even your mother warns you to stay away from him and the dog runs away from him. But you agonize over whether his looks are really that important to you. You either leave him or stay with him because you've fallen in love with who he is and not what he looks like.

    SCENARIO 2:

    You meet someone online in the situation where there ARE pictures posted. You were initially attracted to the profile based on the picture BUT the bonus is that you also end up really getting to like the person you are chatting to and perhaps after a couple of weeks you actually feel like he "is the one" - i.e. there is a connection AND you think he is a REAL hunk. So your heart and penis leads you out of your front door to meet him face to face.

    Potential outcomes:

    a) he's actually the same person in the pictures, and he's HOTTER than his pictures and you live happily ever after with him! (and here I have to say to you "LUCKY BASTARD!")

    b] he's actually the same person in the pictures, and he's HOTTER than his pictures, but in reality you just don't click and you go on your own single way!

    c] he's actually the same person in the pictures, and he's HOTTER than his pictures, but you're a big bottom and he has a tiny dick, but you're torn between him being Mr. Perfect, but not being able to satisfy you in bed....You either leave him or stay with him because you've fallen in love with who he is and not what he looks like nor because he has a small dick.

    d] he's NOT as hot in person as he was in his pictures (and you’re wondering if it was his sons’ pictures or his pictures dated 20 years ago) and you wonder what else he’s been lying about. But you agonize over whether his looks are really that important to you. You either leave him or stay with him because you've fallen in love with who he is and not what he looks like.

    e] he’s NOT the person in the pictures and you’ve been screwed over. You’ve just realized you’ve wasted countless hours working on a potential relationship all for nothing…You’ve been duped. The guy just wants to screw you. You either (a) let him screw you because he is actually kind of cute and you’re actually horny or (b) bitchslap the motherfucker into tomorrow or (c) move on with your single life and put it down to experience and remain a cynical, bitter queen till the day you die or (d) politely leave and realize all men are pigs.

    SCENARIO 3:

    You actually meet someone in person (wherever it may be while you’re not sitting at your PC looking for Mr. Now or Mr. Forever). The person you meet is really hot in your eyes and is charming and has a great personality and you both have an instant connection and attraction.

    Potential outcomes:

    a] You go home with him, screw the living daylights out of him and you live happily ever after with him! (and here I have to say to you again "LUCKY BASTARD!")
    b] You go home with him, screw the living daylights out of him, however, after 3 months you realize the sex is getting old and you really didn’t have “that” connection…it really was just a “lust” thing and you move on with your single life. (now doesn’t this sound like a familiar outcome…)
    c] You don’t go home with him, you actually “date” without sex for an extended period and finally you fall in love with him and then have s
  • DrStorm

    Posts: 185

    Jul 26, 2007 4:49 PM GMT
    lord - I exceeded the word limit on here - here is the rest of my post:

    Potential outcomes:

    a] You go home with him, screw the living daylights out of him and you live happily ever after with him! (and here I have to say to you again "LUCKY BASTARD!")
    b] You go home with him, screw the living daylights out of him, however, after 3 months you realize the sex is getting old and you really didn’t have “that” connection…it really was just a “lust” thing and you move on with your single life. (now doesn’t this sound like a familiar outcome…)
    c] You don’t go home with him, you actually “date” without sex for an extended period and finally you fall in love with him and then have sex, it’s amazing, passionate, hot sex and you live happily ever after with him!
    d] You don’t go home with him, you actually “date” without sex for an extended period and finally you fall in love with him and then have sex, however, he the sex is really not great and you agonize over whether his paltry performance in bed is really that important to you. You either leave him or stay with him because you've fallen in love with who he is and not how he performs in bed nor because he has a small dick and you’re BOB (Big Ol Bottom)….
    e] You don’t go home with him, you actually “date” without sex for an extended period and finally you fall in love with him only to be told he doesn’t feel the same way about you. Now you’re really screwed….you never got to try out the goods nor do you have a boyfriend….

    OK, so this got long winded. Perhaps you’ve identified with some of the outcomes, perhaps not. Few of us get to have the (a) outcomes, but they do happen. There is nothing wrong with wanting the (a) outcomes. Don’t be discouraged if you typically seem to have the (d) or (e) outcomes. It really doesn’t matter who you are, what you look like or what you do – the older you get the more the likelihood that you’ve experienced perhaps ALL the outcomes at least once in your life.

    The point being, life offers us SO many different scenarios and options. Firstly, know what you want. Secondly stand firm with what you believe. If you honestly feel that you don’t want to have sex with another guy you find attractive on the non-physical side of things, then don’t and NEVER let anyone make you feel guilty for what you believe in. Who gives a crap if it is “old fashioned” to have certain views or values. If it’s important to you and that other someone special you meet shares the same values and ideals in life then it won’t be a problem.

    Don’t try to fit a square peg in a round hole is all I am saying. Don’t limit yourself by being unwilling to perhaps change your views on things and see things from different perspectives. Ultimately, do what YOU think is right for you and not necessarily what other people tell you what is right – one size does not fit all. But most important don’t confuse sex with love. They are two very different beasts with their own sets of agendas. Sex can be had without love and love can be had without sex, but man, when you can have both together, that’s when you’ve hit the jackpot.

    Lastly, let’s not criticize each other for the values and beliefs we have unless we ourselves don’t’ mind being criticized for our beliefs and values!

    PEACE

    daWeatherMan
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    Jul 26, 2007 7:03 PM GMT
    Don't you feel, however, that if you really click online, let's say over a few weeks of emailing back and forth, alongside a series of phone calls back and forth, that you have already gotten to know each other fairly well? You then go on a couple of dates and that cements the deal? Speaking from personal experience, I feel that I had gotten to know my partner through emailing better and faster than face to face... Perhaps the other problem with we guys is the sheer horniness factor of two guys meeting...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jul 26, 2007 9:51 PM GMT
    Thanks for all the comments. I'm going to have to digest this one for awhile before I can really make up my mind.

    However, keep going with the thread
  • imaxim

    Posts: 94

    Jul 26, 2007 10:15 PM GMT
    from ww1969:

    "Perhaps the other problem with we guys is the sheer horniness factor of two guys meeting..."

    That's very true. However, in the scenario you mentioned (having already gotten to know one another online and also having chemistry in person), I don't know that this is necessarily a bad thing. Personally, having all of that sexual tension unresolved for an extended period would make communication more difficult for me, and possibly lead to some unrealistic expectations of whatever consummation might happen in the future.

    Now, for a lot of people, the romantic aspect of waiting is what's right for them... I totally respect that, but at this point it's not a quality I would find attractive. Many of my worst experiences thus far were with people who were so in love with the idea of a romantic, traditional courtship that the actual connection (mental, sexual, or otherwise) was a mere afterthought.

    If, on the other hand, an existing, committed relationship is the only setting in which you feel comfortable sexually, by all means hold out for it.
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    Jul 28, 2007 12:52 AM GMT
    I didn't answer the question of sex before partnership - it wouldn't work for me and I wouldn't recommend it for anyone.

    Not having sex before marriage stems from a tradition meant to ensure purity of breeding - it didn't have much to do with making sure couples could get along. There was alot of arranged marriages to climb social ladders or ensure financial security. Sex didn't have to be good - you just had to get her pregnant.

    If you have that value grained into you - it's ok, but give some thought to where it comes from and how useful it is in ensuring a successful relationship.

    My checklist for the right guy - 1) Gotta get along on a date or vacation or sitting around the house, 2) gotta have similar healthy lifestyles, 3)gotta agree on a sane fair way to handle money, 4) gotta enjoy sex with eachother, and 5) gotta tolerate eachothers domestic habits.

    If I waited until after commitment to have sex - I'd have to break it off if the sex was lousy.

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    Jul 30, 2007 1:03 AM GMT
    One has to realize that not every gay guy out there operates under the assumption that it is healthy for two males to behave the same way a male/female pair behaves.

    Females, (when mislead by disney and religion) attach significance to their sexuality as if it is a gift to the man to strengthen a committment and raise family. White wedding dresses, chastity, purity, Immaculate Mary, etc...

    Gay guys do not have sex with one another in order to procreate, therefore following this paradigm will lead us down sketchy emotional paths which dilute our individuality and defy the base masculine idea behind our orgasm, which, in many cases, amounts to a simple getting of our rocks off. There are many options, and your same-sex happiness shouldn't be measured against a heterosexual relationship. That is like comparing apples and oranges.

    I'm always weary of guys who are preoccupied with finding a husband asap, or those who have a list of rules and regulations. They seem to have very shallow pursuits, and place too much emphasis on illogical things they THINK they need in order to be happy.

    Sundown, Good luck with your decision. None of what I wrote implies that we need to be promiscuous and have multiple partners, we just need to be men who think original thoughts instead of men who inadvertently act like Marcia Brady.